Dawn Of Skirmish WA v1.9 AI Mod is now LIVE!!

[thudmeizer]

The Dawn of Skirmish WA Advanced AI Mod v1.9 is here!

Download Link1 (http://www.yourfilehost.com/media.php?cat=other&file=Dawn_Of_Skirmish_v1.9_AI_Mod_Install.exe)
Download Link2 (http://www.filefactory.com/file/705d8c/)

**ATTENTION**
This is meant for Dawn of War WINTER ASSAULT 1.50 ONLY! No other versions will work as it will error out if you try to run on anything other than the expansion + v1.50 patch!

Meet the Cast:
Thudo (Thudmeizer)..>> Team Lead/Coder/Gfx/Bonafied Cheerleader
ArkhanTheBlack......>> Lead Coder/Scripter
LarkinVB............>> Lead Coder/Scripter/Beta Tester
Corsix..............>> Coder
Slash...............>> Beta Tester
FinalDeath..........>> Beta Tester
Zenoth..............>> Beta Tester
QuietDeath..........>> Beta Tester
JBird...............>> Beta Tester

Introduction
============
Prepare for a more enhanced Dawn Of War/Winter Assault Skirmish Experience!

This project started after the release of Dawn Of War with the intent to bring to the global DoW community a more intense and satisfying AI opponent on the field of war. We hope you will agree that has been achieved with the understanding more is to be done in the future. Our work continues to evolve and in the coming months will make current efforts pale in comparison. However, you have to start somewhere and hot damn what a jumpstart!

Its been a slice from start to, well, continuing! We're so looking forward to enhancing the AI even further in the coming months!


A Personal Thanks
=================
At this time I would like to personally thank all the participating members of the team:

ArkhanTheBlack, LarkinVB, Excedrin, and Corsix, as well as our beta testers, ThetaOrion, FinalDeath, and Zenoth (all who keep our work "in-perspective" and "on-track" with our ultimate goals of achieving the most competitive DoW AI opponent we can create!).

Its through your dedication, patience, and technical expertise that allowed the work to commence and prosper. Without you fellers, there'd be a pittence of work compared to the greatness this project has become. We've come a long way and do sincerely hope to continue our expert correspondance into the future of the product.


Disclaimer
==========
This is to acknowledge that we take no personal responsibility for any hardware damage or data corruption brought forth by the use or installation of this DoW modification. As used, this modification works "as is" and has been thoroughly tested and should not cause any major problems. In the event, however, that something serious does occur, it is up to the user(s) of their computer(s) to make appropriate backups before any attempt is made to install the following DoW modification. Use at your own risk.


Whats In The Package?
====================
o Main Installation Package containing the Enhanced DoW AI scripts (contains ONLY those .ai files that our team altered)
o Dawn Of Skirmish WA v1.9 README.txt (what your reading)
o *NEW* Doc folder containing information how to add your own faction to the AI project.

Installation
============
Piece of Cake! Run the executable and it will extract to where your <installed Dawn Of War folder> is.

Once installed, run the newly placed shortcut on your desktop "Dawn Of Skirmish WA v1.9" or from StartMenu/Programs/"Dawn Of War Skirmish AI Mod". You will know if the modification is running when on the top-left section of the Dawn Of War Main Menu it will display: Dawn Of Skirmish v1.9.

To uninstall this modification, go back to StartMenu/Programs/"Dawn Of War WA Skirmish AI Mod" and choose "Remove Dawn Of Skirmish AI Mod" to remove the modification from Dawn Of War.

Whats New?
==========

v1.9 Changes:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
o Better adjustment to patch v1.5 balance changes (More troops, slower teching)
o Fixed some performance problems with v1.8
o Improved attack, defend and harassing behaviour
o Fixed some attachment issues

Thanks to everyone on the team for you incredibly hard work getting this compatible with all the major balance changes in WinterAssault and thanks to you, the community, for your patience!

Now DAMN IT go get owned before DC arrives!! :nyah:

[Octopus Rex]

Woo hoo!!!

Go thudmeizer and crew!

[TimHamm]

ALL RIGHT!!

I love the skirmish AI.
:thumb:

[JoeSocksXD]

Woot. Time to get owned by the ai. :)

[Darkening]

Yeah!! I'm glad a new version of this mod is here before Dark Crusade, because I was getting bored of beating the comp on Insane :p

Thanks and cheers to all the staff!

[jon_the_d]

wow! it seems like only yesterday it turned 1.8!

they grow so fast....

[hayate]

yup, they grew fast...and very deadly.

[Raiden]

I already have 1.8...how can I override the old version with the new patch? Should I just extract it to my DOW folder?

Thanks.

[thudmeizer]

Just install and when it asks to uninstall previous version, do it, then proceed with v1.9 install. Done!

[Raiden]

Okay thanks! :salute:

[danteyeh]

Wooooooooooo~
My most favorite mod!

[Asylum360]

Awesome.
I've been having more fun with this than multiplayer.

[Dorkdav]

All right hopefully 1.9 will run without any troubles. If I do have problems I'll let you know.

[Buguba]

Thanks for all the hard work you guys, I really appreciate it.

I haven't played it yet, but I had a quick question.

This has problem been done to death, but does this mean that the bug where the AI won't reinforce above 5 guys is gone?

I guess it's just best if I dl the thing and see for myself. :3dcool:

[Kennethl00]

Um when i play with this mod i get a slight lag and the screen freezes like a sec every 5 secs...any solutions??

and without the mod i dont get lag

[somweg]

First, thanks for the hard work all!

My problem occured at start of 6 player Kasyr Lutien: "Fatal AI Error: AI Execution Paused". Then I Crtl + Shift + ~. And here's the last few lines of what I saw:

GAME -- Starting mission...
AI -- *ALERT: [string "Core/utility.ai"]:5.1:attempt to index local 'log' (a nil value)
SCAR -- could not execute rule: AI_Think
GAME -- SimulationController::Pause 0

Is there anything I can do or provide to help fix it?

[ArkhanTheBlack]

@somweg
It looks like you've kind of write protection so the AI log file is not able to write its log file.
You can fix that by opening utility.ai in the dowai_mod/data/ai/core folder and replacing the complete "if (g_bAITrace) then ...." block in line 44 with:

if (g_bAITrace) then
local log = io.open("c:\\"..tostring(player_id).."aitrace.txt", "a+")
if (log) then
log:write("AI"..tostring(player_id), " ", txt, "\n")
log:close()
end
else
if (bReset) then
local log = io.open("AI_Log.txt", "w+")
if (log) then
log:write("AI"..tostring(player_id), " ", txt, "\n")
log:close()
end
else
local log = io.open("AI_Log.txt", "a+")
if (log) then
log:write("AI"..tostring(player_id), " ", txt, "\n")
log:close()
end
end
end

This should fix it.


@Kennethl00
Still performance problems? 1.9 should be much better than 1.8 but if you've still problems I'd advice you to use our 1.75 version.
I think I'll include a low performance fall back routine for the DC version if there are more performance problems...

[runab0ut]

woo!

Expecting to have lots o' fun with the new version in a few mins!

[Kennethl00]

Yes im playing 1.75 right now but its just not the same as 1.9 =(

i wish i could play 1.9




Currently im using a Amd Athlon dul core processor 4200 and radeon x800 graphics card..it doesn't make any sense why i lag...

[thudmeizer]

We're not 100% sure since 1.8 some users have the lag and others don't. Frick'n a mystery. Could be a specific hardware or virtual paging setting you people have that either works well or doesn't with 1.8+. To me: doesn't make any grain of sense. I'm getting a whole new PC (v.high-end Conroe) in under 2 weeks and will be testing the "lag phenomenon" on the new rig. Its unclear if we're released before DC but we'll keep ya posted.

[somweg]

@ ArkhanTheBlack

This appears to have worked. Thanks for your help and thanks again for all the hard work to improve our enjoyment of this game!

[runab0ut]

the stutter happens only within the first few seconds on game start.

after that, it flows nicely and works as good.

[vecctor]

I have played a few games of 1.9 - some good online matches with friends vs. Hard AIs. I have to say, supreme job. The last few versions haven't been too challenging (1.7-1.8) but this is above and beyond anything before. Fantastic work.

I wasn't playing much lately (waiting for DC) but this has renewed my interest again.

Thanks for the update. This work is always appreciated. If you ever need any help (testing, whatever) just throw a PM.

[shrp]

I think this is the first time, I won a 3vs3 match with IG against chaos (harder), which points to excellent tweaking in the IG AI. Massed troops, lots of comissars.. good :) Lag problems seem to avoid me as well.

[LarkinVB]

I get minor lag at the start of the game (first 10 seconds or so). Guess its the AI doing its capture plans for the map, the more resource points, the more lag. It is far from limiting the fun.


Currently im using a Amd Athlon dul core processor 4200 and radeon x800 graphics card..it doesn't make any sense why i lag...


Right, makes no sense. I have an Athlon 3500 with x800pro and apart from the little lag described above the gameplay is smooth.

[Stormsong]

Great work, guys. :up: Thoroughly enjoying it.

FYI: I haven't experienced any lag at all with v1.9 so far(Athlon 3200, GeForce 7800).

[ArkhanTheBlack]

I get minor lag at the start of the game (first 10 seconds or so). Guess its the AI doing its capture plans for the map, the more resource points, the more lag. It is far from limiting the fun.
Yes, the precalculations of the lookup tables can take some performance at the start. At least it's much better than the constant ingame stuttering before...

[Ducimus]

One major problem I noticed is the AI base building strategies. Far too often, I have seen AI team mates been blow away by an attacking forces because they built the building to close to each other and effectively cut off mnay routes. I have seen Troops and vehicles literally stuck in between buildings only to be shortly destroyed. Is this common to anyone else. It seems to happen alot when I play against AI.

[thudmeizer]

Thats called EVERY PC RTS out there + we cannot control how buildings are placed down - thats up to the faction's designers to ensure enough buffer exists between buildings to disallow bottlenecks. However... every PC RTS has this problem with AI. Period.. Add to the fact maps are unpredictable to AI in terms of spacial constraints and presto - its still many decades out when we'll have AI with as many lines of code as the human brain has neurons and synapses. Maybe someday the gaming industry will give us "AI PROCESSORS" and not just Physics ones. :D

[thudmeizer]

Update - on our AI forums we had a gracious user, Abusage, write this about how to potentially solve studdering/lag problems with our v1.8/1.9 AI..

Upon downloading the 1.75 and 1.8 skirmish mods I would experiece a skipping during gameplay that made it unable to play. It was just me out of 5 of my friends that played that got this problem and I spent several days reinstally drivers and what not to figure out the problem. Yesterday I figured I'd run windows update and I was looking through some of the "not essential" downloads and saw the .net framework 2.0. In the past I'd read that downloading this was a solution to some problems with ATI Catalyst drivers while playing DoW as my brother had experienced this on his laptop. I, however, am using Nvidia but I said what the hell and tried it myself. Luckily it worked just the same. Downloaded it, installed it, restarted, and now I can enjoy this great mod once again. Hope this helps.

Here is the link to windows update and you must use Internet Explorer to use it correctly

Windows Update (http://www.windowsupdate.com)

[Finaldeath]

I very much doubt ATI uses .NET in their core driver code. You might be thinking of the rather stupid control panels (and nVidia might use .NET there too), but those are optional to the graphics card anyway.

It'll be a code problem if it doesn't happen with the standard AI but does happen with this AI, although I've not tried it myself.

[the_hunger]

Good job on the AI mod, guys. Looks like the Basilisk resource bug is fixed, which was the only issue that I had with 1.8. I look forward to seeing what you all do with DC!

Thanks again for your work.

[thudmeizer]

I very much doubt ATI uses .NET in their core driver code. You might be thinking of the rather stupid control panels (and nVidia might use .NET there too), but those are optional to the graphics card anyway.

It'll be a code problem if it doesn't happen with the standard AI but does happen with this AI, although I've not tried it myself.Well hey.. if it worked for him then we got one more satisfied customer.. might help further explain what the heck is going on when 90% of the people have no probs yet some select few do. At least we're a step closer to resolution in some form. ;) ONWARD TO DC ! ! ! :D

[Kennethl00]

Thank you so much to whoever fixed the stuttering problem
I can now run 1.9 with no problem and im 100% completely satisflied.

Great work guys.

[thudmeizer]

Abusage deserves ALL the credit on that one - he PM'ed me on our AI board with the solution which worked for him. Obviously something is up with .NET 2.0 and the 1.8+ AI scripting we have now. Bloody odd.

[ThetaOrion]

Well, the 1.9 AI Skirmish Mod combined with the 1.51 Relic Patch seemed to do just fine together, and the game I played went well at the HARD setting also.

Nothing to complain about so far. ;)

Thank you one and all.

[runab0ut]

I've installed .net 2.0 (so far for a lean machine), no difference. That's on my end, how many times does the AI update per frame? It seems that i'm lagging for 200ms on a 3v3 battle with a big map from map pack iv.

[theoak]

I used the mod in a 1 vs. 1 skirmish on a 2.2Ghz / 4GB RAM computer and noticed that the game pauses slightly every few seconds which makes the game look choppy.

I don't believe it's a graphics issue, as the game runs fast without the the 1.9 AI. Is there something that's causing the lag?

Any info is appreciated, as I really would like to sue the AI.....

[thudmeizer]

Thanks Theta! Good to hear from an olde AI betatester!!! :D

As for some of you with lag/slowdown with the AI using v1.8+.. No clue if the .NET doesn't fix your problem. It did for a user and thus consequently with others after him. I'm getting a real strong feeling it has something to do with what Microsoft components you have on your system. I'm running XP Pro + SP1 with the latest Catalyst drivers.

I'm building a mega-powerful Conroe system (ready to go online in 1.5 weeks) so I'll test it with XP + SP2 and all latest goodies to see if I can reproduce everyone's prob.

[DatonKallandor]

Once you can confirm 1.51 compatability - I recommend changing the first post to include that information.


Daton

[thudmeizer]

1.9 works with 1.51.. there are 2 minor MINOR code modifications we could do make it 100% but its not worth it since 1.51 was a balance update to DoW/WA. So we'll likely wait til DC then go from there.

[runab0ut]

thudmeizer, just managed to get the patch 1.51 in and played 8p kasyr lutien, stutters are gone it seems, aside from the initial loading of the AI. it seems that its on relic's side afterall (prepatch). :)

[thudmeizer]

just managed to get the patch 1.51 in and played 8p kasyr lutien, stutters are gone it seemsStill doesn't make sense.. so by just installing 1.51 DoW update that solved yer lagging/studdering? :? Well.. at least we have another satisfied customer. :D

[runab0ut]

who said i aint satìsfied? i always have been! you guys got me thru boring webdev meetings all the time!

its probably the game speed bug/fix that was introduced in 1.5 affects skirmish games too.

[theoak]

I don't believe I had the .NET on my computer.

I just downoaded and installed the ".NET Compact Framework 2.0 Redistributable"

I'll let you know if it speeds up the game with the 1.9 AI..........

[Tenor_Marine]

Thud,


As always a superb AI Mod. By far -at least for me- better than playing online. One thing I have notice is that the vehichles don't seem to be as agressive as 1.8 Or maybe it's the amount of space that is needed.

[thudmeizer]

AI vehicle aggression is the same as the infantry - zero difference. You'll need to play on different maps (especially official ones) to see varying behaviours.

[NFIH]

Many months ago, I pointed out what seemed to be a tendency for teammate AIs in this mod to do little or nothing in games. The observation wasn't that well received here, especially by Larkin, as I recall. However, I ended up moving on to other games (boy, that Civ IV is addictive as hell) but have recently fired up DoW again.

Unfortunately, the problem seems to still exist, though it appears to be somewhat map dependent. So my question now is do you guys have any idea why this might be?

I wouldn't bother to make an issue of it since I know AI behaviour is map-dependent (although it still doesn't explain why enemy AI is just as aggressive as ever, regardless of map), except that I had the idea to test my hypothesis by trying out identical maps and setups using the vanilla AI to see if there was a performance difference.

And it appears there is. Which leads me to think there must be something about the coding in the skirmish mod AI that affects AI teammate behaviour that was unintended and presumably unknown.

What I did was play the 6-player Artefact map (from community map pack 4) alternately using the vanilla AI and the skirmish mod AI (harder, no resource sharing). Under the skirmish mod AI, one of my allies does not really leave his base at all. The other comes out but very tentatively and in fact never even makes it into the enemy AIs' half of the map. Meanwhile, the three enemy AIs are pouring forces non-stop into our territory. (By the way, the AIs do build structures but where their forces might be and why they're not being used is a mystery.) Hmm ...

So I stop the game since it's really 3v1 (me) and it's quite unwinnable. Then I try the same game using the vanilla AI. Both AI allies now leave their base and attack, one of them fairly strongly. Their play is still sub-par but that's because the AI is not nearly as good as your skirmish AI. But the point remains--in this case my AI teammates actually play.

Any thoughts or speculation as to what causes this different behaviour?

[thudmeizer]

Short-answered..
1) Yep.. its map-based (don't expect many PC RTSes to be any different - there aren't enough lines of AI script to compensate OR someday we're have an AI-dedicated processor)
2) Expect the AI to change in DC, drastically for the good.. *hopefully* - Relic knows about all our angsts so hoping they can oblige to their best abilities, budget, and time constraints.

[NFIH]

Short-answered..
1) Yep.. its map-based (don't expect many PC RTSes to be any different - there aren't enough lines of AI script to compensate OR someday we're have an AI-dedicated processor)
2) Expect the AI to change in DC, drastically for the good.. *hopefully* - Relic knows about all our angsts so hoping they can oblige to their best abilities, budget, and time constraints.
Yes, but why is it less map-dependent under the vanilla AI than under the skirmish AI?

That's the question.

[thudmeizer]

Vanilla AI is not running complex strategies but seems to "generalize" its behaviour. However, why it happens at certain startpoints is unclear. If you, perhaps, play 2vs2 and populate the startpoint where the last AI did not preform well with another AI does the AI then play better? Worth a test..

[NFIH]

Vanilla AI is not running complex strategies but seems to "generalize" its behaviour. However, why it happens at certain startpoints is unclear. If you, perhaps, play 2vs2 and populate the startpoint where the last AI did not preform well with another AI does the AI then play better? Worth a test..
I'll try that with both vanilla and skirmish and see what happens.

The skirmish mod AI does indeed use some sort of different approach although it, too, uses a pattern. On that Artefact map, the AI always initially attacks on my left flank instead of head on. Always. Switch to vanilla and the AI initially attacks my base head on. Always. Interesting difference. The skirmish AI seems to be "sneakier" in terms of choosing where to attack even if it ultimately devolves into a predictable pattern. Good stuff.

[ThetaOrion]

Yes, that was a part of my complaint with the 1.75 AI Mod and the 1.55? DoWPro Mod, the Space Marine AI allies in particular seemed to just sit back and do nothing until they were overrun.

With 1.8 and 1.9 AI Mod, though, the gameplay balance is better, so if you go to help your Space Marine or IG allies to hold or capture strategic points, it can be done and you can win, or so it seems to be on the limited games and maps I have played recently. And, the Eldar actually produce enough to be of assistance to your AI ally, to help keep him from being overrun. I like 1.8 and 1.9 better, along with the newer 1.51 Relic Patch -- better Relic balance to begin with equals better gameplay.

The Artifact map itself had a massive imbalance built into it right from the beginning, and I don't know if any of that has been fixed in the most recent version(s). But, during development of the Artifact Map, whichever team had position #2 on its side would automatically lose. That team could never hold the center or get the demon prince either. In fact, the Eldar and the IG allied AI couldn't even build a base in position #2 which kind of made it impossible for them to move out against the enemy.

I found at the time that the Artifact Map was the absolute worst map for testing the AI Mod. Again, I don't know if any of that has changed, but you all need to be aware of it. The Artifact map is not a balanced map, and I'm not sure that that issue has been completely fixed even in the most recent versions of the map, though I haven't played the version that comes in the new community map pack yet.

A more balanced map such as Kaysr Lutien, or Soul Forge, or even Mountain Trails seemed to give me a much better feel for the real quirks of the AI in the AI Mod. Even the six player Mortalis star shaped map can be quite revealing. With the 1.75 AI Mod the Mortalis Map was completely unwinnable during annihilation play if playing as the Eldar, but I won Mortalis just fine with 1.8 of the AI Mod playing as the Eldar at the HARD setting, and everything was back to normal just like I remember from 1.55 and 1.60 of the AI Mod.

It really does indeed depend a lot on what Relic gives them to work with. Here's hoping that the initial balance and the AI gameplay in Dark Crusade is as good as Thud and others are hoping or expecting it to be! And, the map you play really does make a difference in the resulting gameplay.

[shrp]

NFIH: I think the aggressivity of your allies depends on the sum of firepower of your armies and their layout as well. I did notice defensive tactics whenever the forces were scattered, outgunned (even by the numbers, without a firefight) or suffered so many losses that winning the ongoing engagement would be impossible. It works very well for me but I don't have any unofficial map installed, it may possibly behave strange on some large ones.

Here are some of my observations related to this skirmish AI behavior:

Moving the squads closer to the allied force can result in their attack - when the AI ally attacks, it means the odds are good - do it as well, it would be a pity to let go this opportunity.

IG can possibly stand only agains orks, the other races are too powerful - farseer always kills someone from the command squad with mind war early game (IG AI builds at least a general), which is a noticeable loss, SM and CSM have very powerful commanders and assault troops early game. Guardsmen are nearly invincible when shooting plasma and heavy bolters from inside the headquarters but AI can't do that. So, one can't expect much inniciative from IG allies at all, they may even suffer from the artillery resource bug, which can paralyze their economy completely. It is possible to win 3vs3 or 4vs4 with IG but it's a fight against all odds. If you want an even fight, do not take IG as your allies.

WA 1.5, Skirmish AI 1.9, harder

[NFIH]

The Artifact map itself had a massive imbalance built into it right from the beginning, and I don't know if any of that has been fixed in the most recent version(s). But, during development of the Artifact Map, whichever team had position #2 on its side would automatically lose. That team could never hold the center or get the demon prince either. In fact, the Eldar and the IG allied AI couldn't even build a base in position #2 which kind of made it impossible for them to move out against the enemy.

Are you sure you don't mean position 3 on that map (it could be the position numbers have been changed since you last played it)? That's the one that seems to be pretty bad.

I just tried the map again but this time completely changing around the positions (except for myself which is always fixed in position 1) and put the enemy AI where my teammates used to be.

Sure enough, we won and the enemy AI did little, especially the one in position 3. Clearly, there's something wrong with this map itself for AI play. Even if the AI did play OK, it's still not a good map for AI matches because the build areas are so small that the AI hems itself in and can't use its units anyway.

LOL! Might as well stop talking about this map for skirmish play right there.


I found at the time that the Artifact Map was the absolute worst map for testing the AI Mod. Again, I don't know if any of that has changed, but you all need to be aware of it. The Artifact map is not a balanced map, and I'm not sure that that issue has been completely fixed even in the most recent versions of the map, though I haven't played the version that comes in the new community map pack yet.

Is it balanced even for all-human play? I should hope it is if it made it into the map pack.


A more balanced map such as Kaysr Lutien, or Soul Forge, or even Mountain Trails seemed to give me a much better feel for the real quirks of the AI in the AI Mod. Even the six player Mortalis star shaped map can be quite revealing. With the 1.75 AI Mod the Mortalis Map was completely unwinnable during annihilation play if playing as the Eldar, but I won Mortalis just fine with 1.8 of the AI Mod playing as the Eldar at the HARD setting, and everything was back to normal just like I remember from 1.55 and 1.60 of the AI Mod.

Rather bored of Lutien, but I'll try it with the new AI to see how it plays. Will try the others as well.

[ThetaOrion]

The Artifact Map is not the one for balance tests.

If I remember correctly, position #3 got squashed in the newer versions of the Artifact Map (2.0 version) in order to make room for position #2 to actually build something, but the thing was still imbalanced when he was done, and the numbering has always been weird and unpredictable on that map, any version I have tried.

I imagine that nothing much has changed much in the mappack version of Artifact from the 2.0 version I tried, from your reports.

It's the Demon Prince and supposedly the ability to play with or without the Demon Prince that made it unique enough to make it into the recent mappack from what I can tell. The 4th MapPack wasn't as much about good gameplay or balanced play as it was about unique concepts. The tunnels in Castle Ruosteinen siege map being yet another example of unique ideas (unique SCARing) in the 4th MapPack, though Castle Ruosteinen is actually meant to be played 3vs5 in Skirmish Mode with the lone human on the inside defending -- definitely not meant for online multiplayer types of play against other humans. Anyway, I wouldn't look for balanced gameplay or human vs human play from many of the maps in the 4th mappack.

--
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The 4 player Mountain Trails Map has become my litmus test map or my benchmark test map. I have done more testing of the AI Mod on that map than any other map. When I was winning easily or losing easily on that Mountain Trails map at the HARD setting, then I knew something was really wrong. On that map, I have a feel for how things should turn out if everything is normal. It wasn't turning out normal with the 1.75 AI Mod.

But, I have played 1.8 of the AI Mod as everything against everything with all the five different factions as AI allies in 2vs2 Skirmish Mode teamplay at the HARD setting, and I was able to win every possible combination no matter what I chose as my AI enemies or my AI allies or what I chose to play as. That told me all that I needed to know that the 1.50 Relic patch was much more balanced than the 1.41 stuff that we had lived with so long, and it all carried over nicely into the 1.80 AI Mod. If I can win as any faction against any 2 enemy factions with any faction as an AI ally on the Mountain Trails Map, like I was able to do with the 1.8 AI Mod and the 1.50 Patch, then (for me) that's a pretty good sign that the balance is right and that the gameplay will always be pretty good on any balanced map.

I haven't had time, though, to see if it all holds true and produces enjoyable balanced gameplay with the 1.51 Relic Patch and the 1.90 AI Mod, though, I think nothing serious has changed from the couple of games I tried so far.

It is good practice, though, especially when you are doing balance comparisons of any kind, to get yourself a map that is balanced and that you have enough time to become familiar with so that you can know what to predict or how it should play out from one version to the next, like I did with the Mountain Trails Map (and like you were starting to do with the Artefact Map) -- then if something goes wrong with the balance or the gameplay, it kind of stands out like a sore thumb.

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Of course, the AI Mod really isn't about balance -- they rely upon Relic to get it right. If the Relic plain vanilla balance is out of whack, it will be out of whack in the AI Mod as well, and the imbalance may even be emphasized in the AI Mod. Definitely the AI allies seemed to suffer in the AI Mod, especially in 1.75 and thereabouts. In 3vs3 on Soul Forge with the 1.75 AI Mod, not only were the Eldar worthless to play as, but my SM and IG AI allies did nothing at all either. At the HARD setting, I couldn't even get past Tier 2 before by base was completely gone, and there definitely was no hope of help from my AI Allies.

In fact, I noticed the discrepancy that you talked about between AI Allies and AI Enemies most of all with the 1.75 AI Mod on the 6P Kaysr Lutien and 6P Soul Forge and the 6P Mortalis. The more AI enemies you have and AI allies you have, the greater the discrepancy seemed to become.

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--

Hopefully, as Thud suggested, Relic will put a great deal of study and effort into the balance for Dark Crusade. It sounds like they will have their hands full getting the Necrons to balance into the mix with the Necron's unique gameplay, so it should require special attention and hopefully will all turn out even better. We can certainly hope that in the future the AI Allies won't come across as being neglected, like they sometimes have in the past.

--
||
--

EDIT:

You might consider balanced 8 Player Maps, as well, though many people think that 7 AI are a bit too many AI to keep track of if you are trying to analyze AI balance issues -- more about that below.

Rayden's 8P Black Fortress Map, Aralez's recent 8P Hell Lutien map, and Aralez's older 8P Kasyr Lutien Winter (Forever) map are some balanced maps that can be very informative when you are trying to test an AI's balance, as well. Although many of the old time gurus believe that 4vs4 team play actually hides AI imbalances in Skirmish Mode, whereas 3vs3 team play seems to emphasize the imbalances.

Long ago, I created an old list of favorite maps for testing AI balance and AI gameplay.

http://forums.revora.net/index.php?showtopic=26945&st=0

Some of the other (Skewed Team Play) maps I listed there were better for testing Tier 4 gameplay than they were for testing AI balance, obviously.

[Steel*Faith]

Thudmeizer, as there any way you could impliment a feature that let's players set what the AI will primarily build and play like? Is there any way to make a menu so we could select to make the AI focus all on infantry production, or a mix, or being heavily defensive or agrressive ect?

Often I find myself wanting to do all out infantry wars without vehicles, or play against a computer that makes tough defenses ect. Just to vary things up a bit.

[thudmeizer]

Simple answer: No. I don't even know a single PC RTS that can do this. I SO WISH! It would be quite revolutionary to give commands to your AI allies to "do this" or "build that" or "saturate this area with Heavy troops".. etc etc.. Maybe someday in the gaming industry... someday.. <dreams of Skynet>

[Steel*Faith]

*Dreams of the day that I could enjoy intense infantry battles without a defiler showing up and ruining all the fun!*

hehe oh well.

[thudmeizer]

But you CAN prevent the Skirmish AI from building vehicles and ONLY infantry. Its covered in the AI docs. For each faction, there are three difficulty files which end in _easy.ai, _standard.ai and _hard.ai. Near the end you under the section SQUADLIMITS just set all vehicle units to 0 and AI will only build infantry. :D

[JohnnyBoy]

I like using the MOD...thanks for your time and effort guys. :nod:

My question IS....what is the difference between:

1) Easy
2) Standard
3) Hard
4) Harder
5) Insane

I usually play it on hard, but am really unclear as to these differences in the SKIRMISH MOD 1.9 in v1.51.

Thanks again..

[thudmeizer]

EASY and STANDARD = AI gets a major resource penalty
HARD = True 1:1 with the player resources-wise
HARDER and INSANE = AI gets a major resource bonus

[JohnnyBoy]

Thanks man, Relic should pay you guys for adding value to this game.

[thudmeizer]

Thanks Johnny.. lets hope in ~20days from now they'll "pay themselves" with all new AI enhancements to DC. We're just waiting now when they pull the trigger.. Hang on: its gonna be one helleva ride! :D

[ISLYFE]

thud did u see the new theard on AI cards in general discussion

[thudmeizer]

I checked - there was nothing. Can you substantiate this? I saw nowhere what you meant.

[ISLYFE]

heres the link http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=105927&page=1&pp=15

[thudmeizer]

Thanks ISLYFE.. I replied there.. shheshhh.. thought it was about Relic and DC's new enhanced AI :D

[ISLYFE]

no problem thud

[Barrel213]

I was just playing a few skirmish games 1v1 against a standard difficulty AI with random race. Yet everytime I played, the random AI had the same race and colors as me. Anyone got any ideas?

[vecctor]

I was just playing a few skirmish games 1v1 against a standard difficulty AI with random race. Yet everytime I played, the random AI had the same race and colors as me. Anyone got any ideas?

Known bug that was introduced in WA 1.5 - nothing to do with the AI mod.

[Barrel213]

Ah, alright then thanks for the info.

[bodkin]

To the Dowai team,

I like to play on Hard level,it suits my style of play,
I don't have to rush things and get to sit back and watch
my units in action.

With the vanilla ai on hard the computer opponent dosen't
build many of the higher quality units like killa kans making
me feel like I'm not getting the full value out of the game.

But with this mod you get attacked by the full range available
on hard.

Just saying, I hope there are plans to extend this mod to DC,
otherwise I don't know if I'll buy it.

[thudmeizer]

I hope there are plans to extend this mod to DCOh yes there are DEFINITE PLANS! :D We're just waiting now. ALOT has happened between us and Relic/THQ so we shall see what happens in 2-3 weeks. Standby...

[Shujaa]

Is there a way to play this multiplayer over a LAN or private game? I really love this mod, and want to play a team game with a human ally. When we both ran it and went into a LAN game, the computer AI seemed to be crappy old normal AI.

[compiler]

"ALOT has happened between us and Relic/THQ "

'twas about time they'd ask your team to re-do the AI.

[ArkhanTheBlack]

Is there a way to play this multiplayer over a LAN or private game? I really love this mod, and want to play a team game with a human ally. When we both ran it and went into a LAN game, the computer AI seemed to be crappy old normal AI.
Should work if both have the mod activated. If you aren't sure, then activate the console at the start, and look at the displayed messages. If there are comments like "Choose buildprogram: X" then the mod is active. Maybe it was activated but got into a situation where it shows a bad performance like a turret rush (which will be dealed in skirmish AI 2.0 for DC).
Therefore check console text and try other maps. AI performance can differ a lot between different maps.

[Shujaa]

Thanks, it was just one map we tried so could have just been bad luck :)

[Zorion]

does this work with the latest version of the game? think it is 1.51 yes?
sorry for asking but i would like to try this, cause im sick of the normal AI, but i dont wanna crash my game.

*Found the answear. thanks*

[Trurl]

Thanks for this most excellent mod. Me and a group of friends recently started playing DoW again in anticipation of DC, and we've been playing many games against Skirmish AI apponents. Every game against AI opponents is interesting and challenging now. Very well done, thank you.

By the way, is it true that the AI gets a resource bonus on both HARDER and INSANE? That would explain why the AI has a whole lot more resources at the end of the game than us humans do. I was beginning to think we just sucked.

[LarkinVB]

By the way, is it true that the AI gets a resource bonus on both HARDER and INSANE?


Yes.

[Joeuhnk]

EASY and STANDARD = AI gets a major resource penalty
HARD = True 1:1 with the player resources-wise
HARDER and INSANE = AI gets a major resource bonus
Does this have anything to do with the option in the little AI tweak utility called "tech bonus" where you can select "opponent major, opponent minor, player minor, etc."? Or is that something different?

Also a related question, if you tweak any of these settings, and your settings disagree with others you are playing with, whose are used? The person that created?

[LarkinVB]

Does this have anything to do with the option in the little AI tweak utility called "tech bonus" where you can select "opponent major, opponent minor, player minor, etc."? Or is that something different?


It's different. Afaik this will modify tech speed.


Also a related question, if you tweak any of these settings, and your settings disagree with others you are playing with, whose are used? The person that created?


It will use the settings of the hosting player. If you have 4 players and 4 AI each one will host one AI.

[Finaldeath]

If you have 4 players and 4 AI each one will host one AI.

Are you/have tested that? I'm not so sure that's the case, because I'd wonder who'd be "hosting" the AI if it was 2v6.

[ArkhanTheBlack]

Are you/have tested that? I'm not so sure that's the case, because I'd wonder who'd be "hosting" the AI if it was 2v6.
I've tested it! I don't know the priorities, but AI's are spread to the available players, that's for sure.

[ISLYFE]

has anyone found a solution to the performance lag while using this mod?

[ArkhanTheBlack]

has anyone found a solution to the performance lag while using this mod?

In preparation for DC, I've thrown out the performance heavy code. I found a better way. Therefore the recent beta has the performance of ~AI 1.7 again. But I wanted to wait for a new release until DC. Though, maybe as a last hotfix for WA... Not sure...

[Hands_of_Fate]

A hotfix before DC sounds better. Not evrybody would buy DC and if it's ready then ther is no eason to delay it anyway. I'm sure nobody would mind a better performance going their way faster than next month, especially since no editing of additional (DC) content would be required.

If not a new release, than maybe a changelog to upgrade 1.9 for new version would suffice? Many mods use your AI build and would just make changes in existing files, rather than start from scratch anyway.

[thudmeizer]

I still cannot substantiate the "apparent lag" - I just within the past 3 weeks built a whole new Conroe system with WinXP + SP2 and all updates to it and still experienced 0 lag. So dunno.. perhaps it is hardware-related or something NOT installed on XP. Anyway.. the AI will be updated for DC in 2-3 weeks.. we'll need a bit o time to assess whats new in DC and utilize the new AI functionality.

[Kjon]

Concerning DC, I'm sure either Buggo or Tranji mentioned that the next patch will be a DC patch so like (IIRC) 1.3. That should bring all the new code and engine updates into the game. So hopefully the AI will be WA and DC compatible.

[escapedturkey]

I get the every 5 second lag too. Latest patch, 1.51. Intel Core Duo 2ghz, 7900 GS with 256mb VRAM, 2 gigs RAM.

[thudmeizer]

Well as mentioned I built a whole new Conroe system + WinXP w/SP2 w/all updates and even overclocked it by 1Ghz :omg: and the game runs like a joke. :D Arkhan has already removed the code that has caused this lag so hold up for DC in a few weeks. We'll need time to ensure the AI is synched with the new AI functionality in the expansion.

[ArkhanTheBlack]

Arkhan has already removed the code that has caused this lag
Actually, I removed critical parts of the laggy code in 1.9, but not everything...

[escapedturkey]

I have 1.9 and it stutters constantly, even at that start.

[thudmeizer]

Wait for DC in 2 weeks. We'll get right on it.. Otherwise, examine yer system: any overclocking? Updated all devices with latest drivers? Latest Windows Update on all Windows stuff? Something is obviously amiss if it works with most people and a selct few, not.

[ArkhanTheBlack]

We've a a new 1.95 version for WA with a much higher performance, but we need a tester with stuttering problems in 1.9 to make sure it really works. Anyone around who's willing to give it a try?

[vol_907]

We've a a new 1.95 version for WA with a much higher performance, but we need a tester with stuttering problems in 1.9 to make sure it really works. Anyone around who's willing to give it a try?
Ich bin's! -- whoops, I really don't have stuttering problems (except in speech).

[thudmeizer]

DC is T-minus one week tomorrow and counting. Hey.. what the heck.. we could sneak in v1.95 "under the gun". All hell is gonna break loose once Oct 9th hits.. Yehaaa!!

Anyway.. anyone interested in beta'ing v1.95 join us here: http://forums.revora.net/index.php?showforum=478

[Gremlin Shoota]

:loco:
Hey Thudo ;)
cant wait for v1.95 it'll keep my busy untill DC comes out :D
good luck with v1.95 and thanks
bye... untill we meet again :cdance:

[thudmeizer]

GREAT NEWS to the COMMUNITY ! !!

## DC AI scripting has officially commenced ##

I am writing up a changelog for the AI coders on whats changed since 1.51 and will be firing it off to them. I have yet to get a firm list of all new AI functionality in DC but that'll come soon. What I am impressed over is I ran various AI tools I have with the DC \attrib folder and all seems peachy! :D Still.. it may need to be retooled as new features might be present the AI Tool is not picking up.

So hang tight.. the fun is commencing!!

[dj_2004]

Sounds great thud. Relic should just hire you for their AI.

[Cornbread]

GREAT NEWS to the COMMUNITY ! !!

## DC AI scripting has officially commenced ##

I am writing up a changelog for the AI coders on whats changed since 1.51 and will be firing it off to them. I have yet to get a firm list of all new AI functionality in DC but that'll come soon. What I am impressed over is I ran various AI tools I have with the DC \attrib folder and all seems peachy! Still.. it may need to be retooled as new features might be present the AI Tool is not picking up.

So hang tight.. the fun is commencing!!

Your great news makes me happy. I wonder, though, if it's possible to modify the metamap AI? Based on early reports, I understand that it's fairly weak and passive. I even read so in a review and, well, if a game reviewer thinks that the AI's a pushover, things can't be good for players who've invested more than a review's worth of time in the game.

Keep up the awesome work, guys! Hope DC opens up exciting new possibilities for your mod.

[LarkinVB]

Sounds great thud. Relic should just hire you for their AI.


Without ArkhanTheBlack (who is coding 99% of all AI stuff) he won't get too far. Don't want to belittle Thudo but point out that Arkhan should get his share of praise.

[thudmeizer]

Thanks Larkin.. Arkhan, Larkin, Corsix and other throughout the the Advanced DoW AI's vaunted history have been the absolute leading contributors which have seen this project be elevated to where it is now. They are the ones who should be praised. Anyway, Relic did not need our help for developing the DC AI - not that I had thought this might have happened but inevitably no. Kudos for Team DoW AI! :D

[Trurl]

So what's up with Skirmish AI and DC. Can we expect a DC version of the Skirmish AI next week. ;-)

By the way, the Skirmish AI forums at http://forums.revora.net/index.php?showforum=478 appear to be down.

[ThetaOrion]

Yes, the Revora Forums appear to be down.

It will be a couple of weeks before some of us get Dark Crusade, so Thud and crew have awhile before people get really impatient. :D

I personally am hoping that Shin will get a working version of Steel Legion with Dark Crusade and Thud's 2.0 AI Mod worked into it. I think that would be cool.

Riker's DoWXP, with Thud's 2.0 AI Mod in that, all spruced up for Dark Crusade would also be cool.

But, it might be a couple of months or a few months before the other reliable mods around here start putting out playable results for Dark Crusade. Time will tell, of course.

[dj_2004]

Without ArkhanTheBlack (who is coding 99% of all AI stuff) he won't get too far. Don't want to belittle Thudo but point out that Arkhan should get his share of praise.
Ahh, I apologize to the whole AI team. Its been awhile since I last checked a DoW AI thread so I didn't know who else was working on it (and yes, I didn't bother checking the first post *slaps himself*). Anyways, keep up the great work guys. DC's AI does seem to be better than WA's, but still needs plenty of work imo. I'll be eagerly waiting the next release. :)

[thudmeizer]

Oh don't worry: v1.10 DC-certified Advanced AI is inbound. Working on it currently actually. ;) Sent my changelogs to the elite AI coders so we can be synched. I know almost everyone still doesn't have DC but for us who do we can help "preempt" progress. :D

[thudmeizer]

Update -

Skirmish AI for DC still being scripted. I pretty much have all factions done. Tau I'm just finishing. All others are done (except more advanced scripts but thats a little later).

Main objective is to just get ALL DC factions working with our AI without relying on Relic's default AI. Little tricky as our 1.95 build isn't working properly with DC currently. Still troubleshooting.. :D

Still.. FunFun.. Relic did great on giving us all new AI functionality. We are still just barely "tapping the tip of the iceberg". The rest basically under water. So good times lay ahead.. Hang tight!

[NFIH]

Hey, thud, when you say Relic has made available "all new AI functionality," what do you mean exactly?

What sorts of things do you expect you'll be able to do now that you couldn't with the original DoW (I mean in terms of gameplay elements that we players will actually be able to see)?

[thudmeizer]

This:

http://forums.revora.net/index.php?showtopic=40306

And hopefully more hidden stuff. I'm hoping Relic releases what new AI functionality is now present.

[ThetaOrion]

I love the thoughts of all the new possibilities.

The AI Skirmish Mod is the backbone of everything else to come, so I am eager and glad to hear that Thud is on the case and making it priority. He plans or hopes to get this mod working before DC is released in Europe. Now, that's dedication!

I also look forward to a DC version of Steel Legion from Shingouki with this AI Mod inside.

And, I look forward to seeing what Riker and DoWXP does to Thud's new AI when Riker gets Dark Crusade and Thud's AI in a couple of weeks.

It may take a month or two, but it promises to be good stuff all around, I do believe.

And, although nobody else would care, Amazon just shipped my copy of Dark Crusade today. So sometime next week or the week thereafter, DC should be showing up on my door as well. It sounds like a lot of fun.

[mdagli1]

Can't wait for the DC release of the advanced AI!

I've always used this AI because it's just more fun to play up against than a human. Easy, hard, impossible...

Keep it up guys! We value your work very much!

[CorsairX]

i just cannot wait for your work guys, i`m owning the ai like hell
they get military points below zero after games
i just beat an insane SM with losing 5 units as tau
cannot wait to get owned by your AI guys :)

[thudmeizer]

DC AI = Not so hot. Relic adding new DC AI functionality for us to improve it = :D

We're looking into it don't worry. ;)

[fuggles]

is 1.9 1.51 compatible?

[thudmeizer]

Yes but we have an internal 1.95 which also improves on a few things mainly the studdering/lag some people have experienced. I should consider releasing it as our last stab at supporting WA.

[fuggles]

Yes, you should :)

[thudmeizer]

Beta team had no problems with 1.95 internal build (no studdering/laggin) so probably will release it in the next few days. DC is about to arrive to most places on the planet in the next 2 weeks so great way to hold ya all over.

[Zulgaines]

This is my favorite mod, it's what made me buy WA after I stopped playing DOW(I don't play strategy games online much) due to boring AI.

Getting used to the new set up of DC has taken a few days but now that I'm used to it I miss the Skirmish mod :(

Can't wait to get it for DC :moo:

[ThetaOrion]

Yes, as one of the former betatesters for the AI Skirmish Mod, I finally went in to Thud's Beta Site yesterday, and I saw the 1.95 Beta executable there all ready to go, and I found myself thinking that Thud should probably upload that to the sites and let the community have a go at it. It will be helpful for those Winter Assault people who cannot get or cannot afford DC right now, to tide them over until they do, if nothing else.

I thought about saying something, and now I have. So, I now second Thud's urge or decision to release the 1.95.

[vecctor]

Do all the AI coders have copies now?

[danteyeh]

AI Mod! My most favorite mod!
It is good to hear the DC AI Mod is in process!
But I wander, is it possible to make the AI mod compatible with Campaign. That would make lots of fun. DC has a great Campaign, but bad AI.

[ThetaOrion]

But I wonder, is it possible to make the AI mod compatible with Campaign.

--

That's an interesting question that I have thought about asking many times, but never have. Only Thudmeizer can answer that one, as he decides what they are going to target and what they are going to leave alone.

I didn't want to get overly involved, because my interference can sometimes do more harm than good. (I did think it is a good idea for them to release 1.95.)

I'm just glad to see Thud on the case once again and willing to do this all over again, for yet another round. I got kind of excited when I started reading some of his progress reports.

It's nice (whenever Relic drops the ball) to have someone like Thud or Riker pick up the ball and run with it. It gives us all hope of better times to come, and provides additional depth and longevity to the game.

--
||
--

EDIT: Second message or second part.

Do all the AI coders have copies now?

If I understand your question right, then the answer is that all betatesters for the AI Skirmish mode have access to the latest or most recent copy of the mod.

There is a place where betatesters can go and download it, but betatesters promise not to give out the location or the code or the recent beta copy. Public distribution is under Thudmeizer's control.

If you want to become a betatester for the AI Mod and play with the most recent version, vecctor, then Personal Message Thudmeizer with your qualifications and desires, apply to be a betatester, and then see what he says. It's his baby, and Thud is the one who chooses the betatesters, and hooks them up. And, it usually starts by your willingness to spend the time doing betatesting and by your willingness to contact Thud and offer your services.

[vecctor]

Actually I was asking if all the coders of the AI mod have copies of the game to work with. Thud mentioned in a previous post that "almost everyone still doesn't have DC" and I was wondering if he was talking about the world at large, or the AI mod team itself.

I was just curious, since I am not sure where all the AI mod team members are in the world.

[ArkhanTheBlack]

Do all the AI coders have copies now?
No! I haven't yet! :raincloud

I was just curious, since I am not sure where all the AI mod team members are in the world.
Considering release dates for games, I live in a VERY unimportant country called germany on an even more unimportant continent called europe somewhere behind the moon :grrr: .

Strangely, it seems like anyone except me already has the game (I feel so lonely... :err: )

The problem is, that I'm the lead coder of the mod, we are stuck with a coding problem at the moment, and I can't help since I don't have the game yet.

[CorsairX]

they could send you the lua`s or whatever is in there right?

p.s. i live in an eaven more unimportant country -> Poland ;D
with totally f...up politics

[vecctor]

No! I haven't yet!

Your brothers in arms should send you one! But I guess it would be in english then :p

[Finaldeath]

The Skrimish AI needs some work to make it compatible with campaigns since it breaks if any units its not defined are used. Last time I checked, around v1.7, there was only one line that broke because it didn't check before it tried to get some info, or have a default value to use for the check.

I am planning to look into campaign compatibility and using some default stats for units not defined (IE: NPC_ units that are not built) so the AI still uses them or at least doesn't crash with them.

[ArkhanTheBlack]

Your brothers in arms should send you one! But I guess it would be in english then
Well, I only play english versions since german synchros for games are not really the greatest.

The Skrimish AI needs some work to make it compatible with campaigns since it breaks if any units its not defined are used.
I fully agree! The new risk style in DC should profit a lot from an increased skirmish AI. I'll definitely try to get it working.

[Zulgaines]

Didn't Relic say sometime that the campaign would be fairly easy to mod? Looking forward to seeing what people do.

[Finaldeath]

Arkhan; once I get the game I'll test it out first hand, can do a small release to implement customised metamap AI too if you wish, along with skirmish AI that works right with the game.

I have some thoughts on it I'll post later.

[ThetaOrion]

Cool, a chance to have the good AI in the campaigns as well!

You guys are gods! :bow:

[the_hunger]

@AI modders: As you tweak the AI code for DC, please address the issue of the Imperial Guard not making Basilisks. I've played several skirmishes against the computer with all Imperial Guard allies and opponents, and I have yet to see computer allies or opponents build Basilisks. The computer players will build all other units for the Guard, but not Basilisks. Basilisks are crucial for this race, especially since they are the best armor until Leman Russes and the Baneblade. Here's a link (http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=116371) to a thread that I created in which others state that they have noticed the same issue. I have posted this problem in Relic's suggestion box on the main forum page, and I suspect they may address it in the next patch. However, there's probably a good chance that your next AI mod will come out before the next patch, so please address this issue.

Thanks!

[thudmeizer]

Err.. what the?? Hunger -- you have gotta be kidding me. Every single game I've seen where the IG AI can get to Tier3 Basilisks are part of the hardware unleashed. In no way have I ever seen one single game the AI has not created and used em -- and I've tested the IG against many other faction mods still in beta over a hundred times. This is clearly news to me and I cannot remotely agree. You must not be playing with our 1.9 mod as this is nowhere near my experience. What skill level are you playing? If you try a 2vs2 with 2 enemy HARD+ IG Ais does the AI just get Chimeras, Hellhounds, and Sentinels then techs right to the Leman/BaneBlade? Something is definitely not right and I can fully assure you that Basilisks always get created.

[Outflow]

thud- he's talking about the Vanilla DC ai not the skirmish mod's :)

[thudmeizer]

Oh... I had figured he played our 1.9 long since.. Oh well.. no comment then... :D :D Super-beyond moot in our current Advanced AI..

[ThetaOrion]

Yes, he's talking about Plain Vanilla DC, Thud.

I have played Dark Crusade at times for a whole hour against 4 AI enemies and 3 AI allies at the HARD setting in Plain Vanilla, and not had a single AI faction build a single tank, except for the Necrons.

Only the Necrons can build tanks -- none of the other factions ever did, after a solid hour of play.

I have also had just as many DC games where the enemy AI and allied AI do sometimes build tanks, but they only build one type of tank for the whole game. Space Marines would only build Dreadnoughts in one game, and overran my Necrons. IG would only build Hellhounds, and nothing else, in one game, while I'm coming at them with my moving Monolith. Eldar in one game only built WraithLords, and nothing else, for the whole game, while I'm coming at them with my Monolith. Orks only built WarTrak Rocket Launcher for the whole game -- no other tanks on the field, while I'm coming at them with my Monolith and Destroyers and Lord Destoyer tanks. Chaos AI was locked into producing only Defilers for the whole game, and no other AI tanks on the field for the whole game.

There's something wrong with TANK build programs in the Plain Vanilla DC AI. Sometimes they get locked into building only one type of tank, and other times they build no tanks for a whole hour, and the human player is the only player on the map building tanks.

These are real issues in Dark Crusade that scream for help from the AI Skirmish Mod team. This is probably the worst and most incomplete Skirmish AI that Relic has ever put out. There's a lot that can be improved. The need for Thud and Arkhan and the AI Skirmish Mod team has never been greater, imho!!

[thudmeizer]

Yes I got that thanks.. Again.. all moot x 50.. its being beyond worked-on..

[ThetaOrion]

Yes, I figured that it would be getting looked into. Like I said above, you guys are the gods of AI, and if anybody would know what it needs, it would be you!

And, as you already know, what you have to offer is severly needed and eagerly awaited, although I think it's going to take you awhile, maybe even a month.

I don't know what is the fastest that a Dawn of War Mod has been produced and released, but I don't see any working Dark Crusades mods being released yet -- plus it sounds like to me that the Game Manager can't even run the mods even if you guys were to actually start releasing them now.

And, Europe hasn't even gotten the game yet, and some of our greatest forum gurus are in Europe.

I think it's gonna be awhile before we start seeing DC Mods.

[ThetaOrion]

--

Second Message, much later, to contradict my other messages:

I just played a 3v3 Dark Crusade game on 6P Testing Grounds at HARD setting with Plain Vanilla, where both of the AI enemies built tanks!

The Orks wiped out my Eldar ally, while I as Tau and my Necron AI ally wiped out the Chaos.

The SM AI enemy turtled, as they seem to do a lot in DC. Then when I finally encountered them, they had a pack of Dreadnoughts, six or seven of them backed up by a couple of LandSpeeders, and wiped out my units, and then went back to turtling in their base.

I built two bases, but suddenly the Ork enemies showed up with one of everything, a hoard. I saw every tank that the Orks can build, and there was one Squiggoth after another, and endless troops. The Orks all by themselves just simply eliminated all my units and tanks and eliminated all the Necrons and then just steamrolled through our bases simultaneously. My base was gone first, with a lone Restored Necron Monolith as my only allied unit left on the map, the last thing to go down if I would have stayed around to see it.

It's a whole other game when the AI builds tanks!! And, once those Orks get going and are actually producing everything, the claims of the Necrons being overpowered is proven to be nothing more than a myth!

[CorsairX]

...although I think it's going to take you awhile, maybe even a month.

i hope you are wrong sir ;) me and my buddies are waiting eagerly

[Warmonger]

We really need this mod. Relic's AI is beyond terrible.

Oh yeah, a huge thanks to the entire Skirmish AI team! Your time and dedication is deeply appreciated.

[thudmeizer]

Well we need time to script and have the betateam playtest. Trust me: we'll use EVERYTHING Relic has given us to improve on the Dawn Of War experience.

[fuggles]

Just heard the cruddy news regarding the UK release date. Any chance of 1.91? :p

*sigh*

[thudmeizer]

I want to release 1.95 as an "interm bridge" between WA and DC. If I can get me arse in gear within a day or two it'll be out.

[Carl]

Good work Thudmiser:).

Quick question, i have a load of mods on my PC ATM, and some have pretty cruddy AI, is there anyway to transfer your Skirmish AI to them, how would i do this (for private use only BTW).

Thanks.

[thudmeizer]

Which mods? Probably they were long since integrated? ;) I have ~13+ mods in the AI already. Most are updated but u can only update AI code based on the speed of the mod teams.

[Carl]

Well I've got the tyranids Mod, erm Necrons, a couple of m,y own created, MMX's Titan's mod, erm SL, Harlequins and one or two others. All i really want to do is make the normal (i.e. none mod factions), fight the mod factions a littile better as ATM the mods ain't much of a challange (my poor micro ability aside:D). So i'd like to move the Skirmish AI for the normal races into the Mods in question if possible.

[thudmeizer]

Err.. uhmm.. we cannot support individual AI projects when they are officially getting done themselves. Logistically, thats a coding/support nightmare. Those mods yer talking about already have AI for em but due to the nature of the projects cannot release anything officially - hope you understand (the mod makers of those mods mentioned above have their projects kept under wraps.. not my decision but I respect it).

[Carl]

Thats ok Thudmizer, what i more meant is there any way to use your Skirmish AI, (as it is in released format right now), to be used by the normal factions.

I.e. I wouldn't mnd when playing the Tyranid mod to have my SM oponnents controled by the Skirmish AI.

I was asking what files would i need to copy into the mod folder?

If you feel that telling me how to do that would be wrong moraly, (you don't want to feel your underming their work), then I understand and respect that.

Eithier way, thanks for the replies.

[thudmeizer]

Hmm.. I don't understand.. copy our \ai folder into the \<installed DoW/WA folder>\wxp\data folder and, once there, the game will use that AI instead of the default (even if no mod is asked to run). The 5 WA factions will use our AI if you do this. Same thing works in DC in the \dxp2\data folder but obviously we're working the AI out there :D

[Carl]

Ahh,l i didn't realise that Thudmizer, thanks for that. For Refranc i havn't got the Skirmish AI (allthough I got a taste of it via the SL mod). I assume I neded to copy somthing across, and since i mostly play mods these days:p, it wasn't worth it to download it until i knew what to copy. However, if i don't need to copy anything...:D. Great, thanks for that Thudmizer, i'll go get it now.

[thudmeizer]

I'll try to expedite v1.95 to the masses. Its a major update for those who experienced studdering/lag in v1.9. Also has some minor AI gameplay tweaks too.

[thudmeizer]

Update Tyme for the gracious masses:

Advanced AI for DC has been making considerable strides in the last couple of days. Arkhan and I have been enhancing, tweaking, and cleaning things up. Both Necrons and Tau fully work (although Necrons need some extra attention). Tau totally own in Tier1 and 2. Before they were have problems with early map dominance, now with the Tau Commander being able to upgrade its weapons + 2 FW squads with both its SquadLead and Drone built its just nasty. Granted, its not 100% ownage all the time but the AI is clearly "at home" with Tau. Necrons will be tweaked further -- they are very different in terms of gameplay and thus require more optimizations to get it right.

All other 5 original DoW/WA factions are brilliant as they are. We'll have a complete list of changes (ie. SM now use Skullprobes to detect infiltrated and increase attached squad's weapon range thus SKullprobes are used now as often as Apothacaries.. also.. Eldar now use Webways to hide assets of their presence - we're debating on whether to have the Eldar build em only at homebase or build one at homebase and the rest near LPs near the battlefield.. its a gamble but I've played many games this way and the AI handles it extraordinarily well while maintaining squad/support cap).

More details to follow soon!

As for v1.95, Arkhan submitted a final build for the community to which I will release for pre-DC DoW/WA players. It will ONLY work with DoW/WA.. Standby for the official announcement and public launch!

[ThetaOrion]

Arkhan: The new risk style [campaign] in DC should profit a lot from an increased skirmish AI. I'll definitely try to get it working.

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After playing the campaign as the Tau, I realized that the AI for the whole game must have been designed and tweaked specifically for the campaign. The AI does just fine in the campaign. I don't think that improving the AI for the campaign is going to be good for the campaign.

In fact, the only thing that saves you much of the time is the fact that the whole campaign thing is scripted with specific triggers. The enemy often starts with two bases completely built, when you start with nothing. If the campaingn had a top-notch fully active AI and it all came at you at once, you would be gone and dead every time.

As you move out, you often trigger things, especially in the headquarters missions. If you move out too soon, you get rushed by the troops from just one completed enemy base and eliminated.

On many of the other 'normal' campaign maps, you have the initial rush of only a limited number of troops, and you are eliminated if you have no Honor Guard to protect your builders while you build, remember they often have two complete bases when they start and you have nothing. If everything rushes you all at once, you are dead. It's your Honor Guard that allows you to catch up. And what you build in terms of bases or buildings carries forward into future defense missions if you win that particular map encounter. The AI can't be tweaked or improved for that. Keeping the AI off your back with scripting and triggers is the thing that is keeping you alive much of the time.

And, when attacking enemy territory where they have two bases already up and running, rushing your Honor Guard to eliminate one of their bases early in the game is the only way to win. The rush tactic is the only way to win some of these maps when you are the attacker. Because when they get to full production, you are dead, considering they have two completed bases at the start of the game and you have to start from scratch. No additional AI grief is needed there either.

And, then there's the Hyperion Peaks Forward Base where you go in with only a limited number of troops, while the enemy has three completed bases that have to be completely destroyed. There is no need for an improved AI there.

I don't think that 'improving the AI' or removing the scripting and the triggers to 'improve the AI' is going to be wanted in the Campaign. That's my opinion. I had NO real serious complaints about the campaign or the AI in the campaign or the scripting or the way the whole thing ran. Just minor things could be tweaked here and there, a few bugs fixed, but that's Relic's job.

I found the campaign more than satisfying. It doesn't need much work, imho, with the AI or otherwise.

Where Dark Crusade is severely disappointing is in Skirmish Mode. It's as if the whole DC game was designed for the Campaign and for LAN or online multiplayer play, and as if no work at all was put into the Skirmish AI for Skirmish Mode.

I was NOT satisfied with the plain vanilla AI in the Skirmish Mode play of DC.

Anyway, I think the Skirmish Mode AI is where your time and priority should go. It's what really needs your attention, and it just so happens that you guys are the AI Skirmish Mod. It's right up your alley. ;)

The need for a good skirmish AI has never been greater!

Don't put too much effort into the campaign AI, unless you run out of things to do. :)

[Finaldeath]

ThetaOrion, truely no offence, but that's not what I've been reading. You are the person who constantly are complaining that this AI mod is too damn good. I've seen several GD discussions about how passive/cheating (although I doubt somewhat)/intelligent the AI is - especially since all the battles are geared towards skirmish and use the default AI to control the armies in it, which isn't anywhere near the 1.9 WA AI ;)

[the_hunger]

I agree with ThetaOrion on this. I hope that the AI mod team will leave the campaign AI alone. The AI there seems good enough in my opinion and some fights are already downright impossible--such as the Hyperion Peaks mission on Hard difficulty. Anyhow, much of the campaign is scripted so that certain units get built and attack at certain times. I think that the campaign tells the story that it needs to tell in a fashion that is quite acceptable and enjoyable. Making the AI tougher (or more optimized) might ruin this for some people.

Like Theta said, it's the skirmish AI that needs some love. It's not bad actually and is an improvement over DoW/WA. Now, I see Sentinels being built, Eldar cloaking their bases, nicely paced teching, and other things. However, I still occasionally see really sloppy placement of buildings (and trapped Baneblades and Squiggies), AI armies camping out around LPs for much of the game, and allies not working together in any meaningful way. Still, no Eldar fleet of foot (although I could have sworn that the farseer used it in one of the campaign missions). As I stated in post #134 of this thread, the AI will not build Basilisks, which is a HUGE problem that limits the Guard's armor options in tier 2 and beyond. These are the things that I hope that the next AI mod addresses.

Perhaps as a compromise, perhaps the team could release two versions of the DC AI mod: one that changes the AI for skirmish and the campaign, and one that changes the AI for just skirmish.

[Finaldeath]

...you understand to play the original campaign, if any alterations were made for the DC campaign, you'd just need to not run the mod right?

[thudmeizer]

Regardless.. we're moving through all the AI issues right now. 95% of the 5 vanilla factions in DC are done. Its Necron and Tau which still need coding and playtesting. Nevertheless.. I have not examined how the Skirmish AI integrated with the campaign/metamap BUT there is a \metamap folder in the master \ai folder so assume thats it. Remove that folder and our AI remains exclusive so don't see a problem.

Lots of incredible new stuff coming to the Advanced DC AI.. hang in there..

[Carl]

@Finaldeath: I've downloaded the AI but not installed it yet, (i hear it breaks Scripted Maps with pre-deployed troops), but dosen't the Skirmish AI tottaly replace the basic AI that comes with DoW/WA, rather than being an actual mod?

@Thudmizer: Any possibility of dealing with the above mentioned issues regarding scripted maps and pre-deployed troops?

p.s. Wouldn't the pre-deployed troops problem mess the campaign up anyway?

[the_hunger]

Good point, finaldeath. For some reason, I had forgotten how easy it is to turn the mod off in the game manager screen (and the fact that the campaign mode will disable the mod by default). Just ignore my last post (except the part about improving the skirmish game).

EDIT: After reading the post immediately above this one, I sincerely hope that it'll be easy to disable the AI mod in campaign mode. I really like what the mod has done for my skirmish games in the past, but I also like the vanilla AI in the scripted campaigns.

[thudmeizer]

Any possibility of dealing with the above mentioned issues regarding scripted maps and pre-deployed troops?No clue.. we're only concerned right now with the "pure skirmish experience". We'll get there in time...

[ThetaOrion]

FinalDeath Wrote: ThetaOrion, truely no offence, but that's not what I've been reading. You are the person who constantly are complaining that this AI mod is too damn good. I've seen several GD discussions about how passive/cheating (although I doubt somewhat)/intelligent the AI is - especially since all the battles are geared towards skirmish and use the default AI to control the armies in it, which isn't anywhere near the 1.9 WA AI

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Just play the campaign a number of times and see for yourself, FinalDeath.

I just don't want them wasting precious time and effort redoing the AI for the campaign. And, I obviously don't want the AI Skirmish Mod AI somehow spilling over into the campaign without our knowledge or prior permission.

If the improved AI can only be accessed through the Game Manager, that's one thing.

But, the campaign is a whole other animal, and an improved campaign AI is not what I'm looking for, for the reasons I listed. Just play the campaign, like 'the_hunger' did and I did, and you'll see what we are talking about.

Now, you are right, if you make a separate 'Campaign Mod' that changes the campaign or improves the campaign, and that is somehow loaded or ran through the Game Manager, then all is well. Then you can indeed choose to load it or not load it.

But, if an improved AI or improved campaign is somehow sereptitiously implanted directly into the campaign itself without our knowledge or prior approval and then ran or accessed through the Campaign Manager every time you ran the campaign -- that would NOT be a good thing.

The user needs to have the choice there to run it or not run it, if the campaign is improved. The user needs to have complete control over this, if the campaign is improved, whether to run it or not run it, and complete knowledge of when it is or isn't running. It has to be done right, in order for it to be acceptable, if you are going to improve the campaign or change the campaign.

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Thud understands this already, I can tell. No body is better at keeping his priorities straight and focussed than Thudmeizer!

Thud wrote: we're only concerned right now with the "pure skirmish experience"

As it should be.

I didn't want them wasting time right now on the campaign, when it really doesn't need it. All of their time for now should be spent on the AI Skirmish Mod and the skirmish mode, where it really really needs it. They can work on the campaign later or start up a separate mod for the campaign later, if they get bored and when they have the time.

If you read up above, I was really eager about the thoughts and the suggestions of an improved AI for the campaign, until I actually played the campaign. Then I did a complete about-face and completely changed my opinion.

All is well. Thud gets it. Thud is focussed. Thud has his priorities straight.

I got my point across, and I believe that all is copacetic.

[thudmeizer]

All is copacetic.. I'm just more concerned about Relic getting Mod tools and a frick'n fix for the Game Manager (something which totally smells rotten to which they had many months to easily fix but somehow forgot.. makes me wonder deeply).

Regardless.. Skirmish AI will be there to help you all gain a vastly superior opponent/ally in your fight in the 40,000 AD battlefield :D

[Steel*Faith]

Oh how I need your AI thud!

[eyeballpaul]

hey lads...got a question..

i just bought this game and was goiig to try and find some decent replays by other players so i can learn good build order and the like...

if i d/l the mod and play a skirmish on say the hardest level...and save replay...will it be just as good to watch the build order and what is done there? or am i better to just do that with "real" players?

[MrBims]

hey lads...got a question..

i just bought this game and was goiig to try and find some decent replays by other players so i can learn good build order and the like...

if i d/l the mod and play a skirmish on say the hardest level...and save replay...will it be just as good to watch the build order and what is done there? or am i better to just do that with "real" players?

On Hard, Harder and Insane the computer gets a very large resource boost, so any build order you see is going to be heavily quickened, and not good for normal use.

Also the Dark Crusade compatible AI is not done yet. The Winter Assault AI won't work with DC, so you'll need to wait a bit.

[eyeballpaul]

i actually only have WA as im in the UK so...

so would i get a good representation of proper play and BO if i say put it on normal? so i can improve my own skills?

I dont fancy jumping into teh deep-end online till i have some more idea of what sort of stuff to build, upgrade etc etc...

i know it sounds daft but bit scared to play without knowing more as ill just freeze up and lose quickly....then whoever i play will prob just shout noob loads o times lol

[Finaldeath]

ThetaOrion; I said I would be looking at it, not the skirmish AI team. If you think all that Arkhan does too is just code code code the skirmish AI you'd be sorely disappointed and I'm sure he'll look at it too.

And currently no mod can run separately to DC, because its broken, once it isn't broken the AI mod can simply be run, or not, to get improved AI, the choice, like now, would always be there. If you don't understand how modding works in relation to Dawn of War, and then post to this saying that its not choice, you are just frankly wrong.

[thudmeizer]

currently no mod can run separately to DC, because its brokenWell the only broken part is that Steel Legion Pioneers turn invisible even to the player controlling them once Infiltration is researched. Apart from that it works. Oh... and some REAL MINOR coding has to the be done to the racebps file and then the mod is good to go. Broken... well if you consider a couple of minutes of copy/pasting. :D AI-wise.. its still being worked on.

[ThetaOrion]

He says potato, she says pototo, he says tomato, she says tomoto. :jig:

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Campaign, good enough:

Arkhan was saying that he would look into the campaign too. And, when Arkhan says that he's going to go looking into something, it usually happens. He does more than just sit around and talk about it -- he's better than the rest of us when it comes to actually doing the stuff that he says he is going to do. He has talent and dedication.

But, the campaign really doesn't need it. The campaign, surprisingly, works quite well as it is. I know, I never expected the campaign to work right either, especially after my initial experience with the DC skirmish mode. I thought the whole load was going to be broken or disappointing.

But, the campaign works as is. Can it be improved? Everything can be improved. But, sometimes good enough is good enough, and the DC campaign really is 'good enough' already.

So, contrary to all my prior expectations, I really am not disappointed in the campaign like I was with the DC Skirmish Mode. I like the DC campaign. It's the thing I like best about the game right now. I haven't played Skirmish mode in over a week now with Dark Crusade.

However, people can do anything they want to do with the campaign, as long as the choice to use it or not to use it remains there for the end-user, I have no complaints or no justification for complaint.

Game Manager Woes and Misunderstandings:

I do believe that once the Game Manager is fixed by Relic, all of our abilities to choose will be back, at least where Skirmish Mode is concerned.

But, I have no way of knowing if that all will apply to the campaign too. Will all of our abilities to choose where the Campaign is concerned suddely be back once the Game Manager is fixed? I don't know.

I just simply don't know if the Campaign has its own 'Game Manager' so that we can select a different campaign other than the original campaign and thus have multiple campaigns in DC? If the Campaign somehow has its own Game Manager, or can use the existing Game Manager once it is fixed, or is someday given its own Game Manager, then the modders won't have to hack and crack the original campaign code in order to give us a new campaign and won't have to keep directly hacking or changing the campaign code every time that we decide to change campaigns. That would be nice, very nice!

But, I don't know how it works where the campaign is concerned. Do you? If so, then maybe you could enlighten us rather than chastize us? Too many unanswered questions and 'what ifs' remain for me and others, where the campaign is concerned. The meta-map campaign is new -- never seen it before. And, very few of us actually have god-like foreknowledge and powers like FinalDeath. :D However, I'm sure that time will tell us what is what and what is possible where the DC campaign is concerned, assuming that someone like Arkhan or FinalDeath starts modding the campaign itself. Someday, we all will know what is and isn't possible where the campaign is concerned.

AI Skirmish Mod, the Heart and Soul:

Thud wrote: AI-wise.. its still being worked on.

Meanwhile, for now, this is what's important to me, the AI Skirmish Mod.

First things first.

I trust now that we'll see a good AI for DC Skirmish Mode play and maybe someday a fixed Game Manager, long before we see campaign mods or multiple campaigns. Each thing in its own time.

Thank you Thud and Arkhan!

Thud is great! Thud is good! Let us thank him for his work!

[ThetaOrion]

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You know, speaking of the campaign, I was in playing the campaign this past weekend as the Necrons, and I finally thought of something that I would like to see changed or improved in the campaign.

Somebody, needs to go in and rebalance the campaign so that the Necrons aren't so god-like powerful -- so that it isn't so easy to win as the Necrons or quite so hard to win against the Necrons.

But, this here is the AI Skirmish Mod, and Thud and Arkhan have told us many times that they don't do and won't do rebalances.

However, the campaign does indeed need a rebalance or a rebalance mod. I'll go as far as to admit that -- now that I have had yet another week to play around with the campaign, while waiting for Thud and Arkhan to release the AI Skirmish Mod for DC, the thing that we all really want.

So, FinalDeath, or anybody else, when you are in there in the campaign, concentrate on rebalancing it. The AI is not as important as a better balance, when it comes to the current DC campaign.

Starting to move off topic here, even though we have been debating here the future needs of the campaign right along with the skirmish mode, for the past couple of weeks.

The Campaign could use a Rebalance Mod, if somebody is willing to do it. There, I have said it, and told you what it could really use. What somebody does with the information is up to them. I'm sure you all will let us know, when one of you comes up with something new and wonderful to try.

For now, thank you. And, best wishes to one and all.

Meanwhile, I eagerly await the AI Skirmish Mod for Dark Crusade!!

[Finaldeath]

ThetaOrion you are really testing my patience and I am not going to argue with you, I have stated my stance.

This thread is now outdated. See the 1.95 thread (http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=118843) for updates.

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