[1.2 - Balance]Stormtrooper effectiveness?

[Alcorr]

Ok well for some reason it is generally decided upon that stormtroopers are the best infantry in the game.

However, the more I play the game, the more I realize that volks are just so much more effective than stormtroopers are.

1. 280 vs. 400, 1 more man, helps vs. snipers.
2. 50 munitions for entire squad mp40 while 150 for entire storm squad mp44.
3. Panzerfaust is basically an anti everything for 50 munitions while bundled (which I admit is excellent) is 40.
4. Camo is an interesting ability...but when does it really ever have a use in 1v1s?

Both upgraded with mp40s and mp44s...I think that cost for cost volks are a much better choice.

I am making a poll to see what people's opinions are on these infantry.

[DrunkenOne]

Um, who decided that storms are the best infantry in the game? I consider them the worst infantry in the game.

[Alcorr]

Whenever they are mentioned on this forum it seems everybody loves em.

At least thats what ive been observing.

[FootKnight]

Against what? Storms with Shreks are better at killing buildings and tanks than Volks with Fausts, Volks with MP40s are better at killing infantry than Storms with MP44s.

I do think you undervalue the camo ability though.

[Victrix Legio]

With 'schrecks being as terrible as they are right now (I don't consider their current effectiveness against base structures to be legitimate) and anti-infantry being more than sufficiently covered by the time stormtroopers come out, volks are easily better in every way that counts.

[Timeless]

Yea, Volks.

Btw, Chamo seems nice and every great, great once in a while you might see it put to good effect, but for the most part you never really get to enjoy this ability in fierce competition. You just don't.

I'll take them if I've chosen the blitz doctrine for Assault Grens, though. It's just that I'm not overly impressed at all by this unit. Especially not for 400 MP. I'd rather buy a volks squad and use the savings to go toward another Stug or AC.

[SmellyTerror]

It's not that they're bad, you always have a more cost effective option.

[Vicious_CB]

Against what? Storms with Shreks are better at killing buildings and tanks than Volks with Fausts, Volks with MP40s are better at killing infantry than Storms with MP44s.

Actually when upgraded with 2 mp44s the storms become just as effective as KCH when going against inf and at longer range too. With that said I'd rather go with mp40ed volks. For the record I never call in storms alone but they are a great bonus when getting the stug42 or the tiger(if you have the mun to upgrade them)

[Boomstar]

The question being asked here is a like comparing apples oranges.

It would be like asking an allied player would you rather have a riflemen squad or paratroopers. A more accurate, comparison would be: would you rather have a sniper or storm squad, as naked storm troopers pretty much function in the same role (taking out defensive positions). But with a ton of added durability and versatility. If your using them as disposable fodder like volks of course your not going to get much use out of them. And going for the second mp44 is nearly always a waste as it only gives one guy an mp44 as opposed to two.

Compare to para's:

Stormies 25 manpower more then para squad.

Cloak > airdrop.

2 shrecks = 150 munitions 2 recoiless = 125 munitions (and yes there pretty much the same in effectiveness).

Bundled grenade > grenade because no research required for bundled and I think its a bigger explosion(the satchel is really only good for building busting not killing).

Can be equiped with mp44's para's have no anti infantry option.

Para's get fireup and the ability to reinforce in the field.

I'm not sure of the exact HP counts for individual members but storms seem to have alot, to make up for the small squad count.

The only problem with storm squads right now is there mp44 upgrade coming tier 4, intstead of tier 3. And I would like to see the option to outfit the whole squad with mp44's for 125 muntions as opposed to the goofy way it is now.

[Stefan_D]

There's nothing like sneaking one or two squads of storms filled with shrecks to any enemy tank or building and completely annihilating them without them knowing where it came from.

[damocles]

I would vote stormies, if it weren't for the huge population cost. 8 pop for a 4 man squad? No ta, I'd rather have two grenadiers. Or a tank. Or a couple of stugs. Or a mortar, sniper and MG crew.

Stormies are decent fighters and the camo ability makes them easier to keep alive, but in general I prefer to use snipers for my AT crew kills, volks for the MP40 close-range shredding of infantry and grenadiers for my shrek based assaults. Stormies try to do too much and end up costing too much to balance that.

[vshin]

This is not an appropriate comparison. Do you want front-line grunts or a commando squad?

I wouldn't use Stormtroopers as the backbone of my infantry. I like to use them to kill AT-guns, mortar teams, and getting rear shots on armor since it's much easier to sneak around and ambush with cloak and hold-fire. I also use them to kill m105 crews and then use their own artillery against them. You'll be surprised how many alliance players don't protect their m105.

If all you want are grunts then by all means use volks; that's what they're for. Just think of Stormtroopers as heavy-hitting and more durable snipers that can wreak havok behind enemy lines. They're also much more flexible than snipers and won't keel over to jeeps. You probably don't need more than 1 squad.

As for the MP44 upgrade I will admit I don't get these unless I plan to throw them in the front lines with the rest of the troops. But this is just a perk to their flexibility when you no longer need them for commando work.

[holymoly]

stormtrooper for 400MP... not cost effective, but with a StuH or Tiger, they are a awesome deal, no reason not to get them... i use MP44 often, for weapons crew killing (AT mostly, sometimes 105s), then man them with my unupgrade volks.

[Sephlock]

Of course, not only do they die easily, they also drop free goodies for the enemy when they die (presuming you upgraded them). The latter I can see, but the former...? Bah!

[Alcorr]

This is not an appropriate comparison. Do you want front-line grunts or a commando squad?

General effectiveness.

The question being asked here is a like comparing apples oranges.

I see no reason for that analogy. Most players use both units as frontline regular troops.

What I am asking for is opinions on general combat effectiveness. Both troop types are used to engage the enemy forces in the same general way, mp40s/44s and shrecks/fausts.

I still don't see why people act like stormtroopers are some sort of completely different troop class than riflemen, volks, grenadiers etc.

They may have a camo ablity, but they are regular assault infantry just like volks, except more expensive and with different abilities. Thus...the poll.

To quote the mighty sepha:

stormtroopers suck

[CptStrombosis]

I think this comparison is off. For instance, you don't have a "Both fill different roles" category.

Stormtroopers keep their effectiveness the entire game. They are great for flanking any kind of vehicle because they can't be seen. Guaranteeing 2 volleys of Shrek missiles into the back/side of the vehicles. They are excellent support infantry because even with 2 Shreks they still have bundled nades to effectively fight infantry. They are also great for sneaking behind enemy lines to 1. Destroy enemy base without warning or 2. To cap points in the rear by bypassing defenses without people knowing. They can then camo and leave before the enemy has a chance to counter in most cases.

I just think they fill different roles. Anyone finding them lacking just are not using them right. It's like saying the HMG sucks because it can't destroy buildings. It's not meant too. Use your units for what they are meant to be used for.

[Victrix Legio]

I've never fully understood why stormtroopers are able to cloak, as they're supposed to represent either Panzergrenadiers or, more likely, Waffen SS, neither of whom were exactly covert ops units (I know, I know, history sucks, Allies would always win, reality is irrelevant, etc.). I'll probably be castrated for this, but I'd just as soon see their camo ability removed and replaced with their arriving in a free Halftrack when they're called in. That way they'd actually be mechanized infantry, which is a rather significant part of the whole Blitzkrieg doctrine that's missing right now.

[Alcorr]

but I'd just as soon see their camo ability removed and replaced with their arriving in a free Halftrack when they're called in. That way they'd actually be mechanized infantry, which is a rather significant part of the whole Blitzkrieg doctrine that's missing right now.

THAT would be awesome, for the reason you stated, mechanized fast attack. Sounds good to me. Maybe raise the cost to 500 to make up for free halftrack? I dunno.

[CptStrombosis]

I would love that Victrix. Problem is, people already hate the halftrack rush enough :)

[Alcorr]

I would love that Victrix. Problem is, people already hate the halftrack rush enough

Well then, perhaps the stormtroopers with the StuH assault force would come with a halftrack (then people might actuall use it)?

Regular stormtroopers would be called in on foot until the axis player reaches tier 3?

[Victrix Legio]

This is assuming the 'schreck's retardedly high effectiveness against base structures (why not against heavy armor, damn it?!) is given the nerf bat at some point beforehand, of course.

[Alcorr]

why not against heavy armor, damn it

Good question, I know this has nothing to do with thread, but shreck SHOULD do more damage vs. hvy armor and less vs base structure....

[BlueJackal]

I only really used Stormtroopers as infantry anti-vehicle.

Camo does have its use. (Creep up, throw a grenade, or get close to a tank. Trust me, use it.)

While I think they're certainly worth upgrading with 'schreks... I'd much rather have Rifleman infantry with BARs than Grenadiers/Stormies with MP44s. No munitions cost, available earlier, all your units get the upgrade...

[holymoly]

look at rangers, they come in a squad of 6, with 2 free bzookas, its accuracy is messed up, but probably a bug? upgrade to SMG gives all 4 members of the squads weapons, just like MP40... so an upgraded ranged squard has 2 zookas, 4 SMG, not to mention they can pick up more zookas and shreks and have more than 2 zookas at a time

their counter part stormtroopers can only upgrade shreks, MP44, of a mix... thats just lame... If for <100 muniton i can upgrade the squad to either 2 shrek + 2 MP44, or 4 MP44, then it'd be more worth it... 4 man is not enough for any firefight... lose 2 and you'll be foreced to retreat or lose a heavy weapon...

[Vicious_CB]

I've never fully understood why stormtroopers are able to cloak, as they're supposed to represent either Panzergrenadiers or, more likely, Waffen SS, neither of whom were exactly covert ops units (I know, I know, history sucks, Allies would always win, reality is irrelevant, etc.). I'll probably be castrated for this, but I'd just as soon see their camo ability removed and replaced with their arriving in a free Halftrack when they're called in. That way they'd actually be mechanized infantry, which is a rather significant part of the whole Blitzkrieg doctrine that's missing right now.

While that maybe true historically removing camo would remove any appeal the storms had in the first place. Replacing that with a half track would be a little imba because the axis player would then just upgrade to a walkingstuka then the blitz tree's problem of no arty support now has a quick fix.

Summary:

Volks are more COST EFFICIENT
Storms are superior to volks but at more COST

2x Volks 560 MP 100 mun > 1x Storms 400 MP 150 mun
For 160 more MP and 50 mun less you can get a better force

[Victrix Legio]

It's not as though Blitzkrieg has ever been barred from building a Krieg Barracks and producing a HT for the Walking Stuka, which is a Tier 4 upgrade that costs 150 munitions, munitions that most Blitzkrieg players will not have in abundance due to their reliance on MP Blitz. Calling in a stormtrooper unit with the proposed change just so you could get the WS would be incredibly cost inefficient, and I honestly don't think it would be all that imbalanced.

The reason I want to change stormtroopers the way I do, beyond my interest in their being more historically accurate, is because I think it would better fit in with Blitzkrieg's underlying principle of immediate exploitation. Blitzkrieg, more than any other doctrine or company, is supposed to be about getting the units and resources you need NOW, and to hell with the long term. Giving Storms the HT would allow them to hit the field and get right to wherever they're needed most instead of traipsing across half the map like other infantry. The HT would also allow the Storms to remain combat effective without withdrawal because it allows them to reinforce in combat. If this change were implemented along with a strengthening of 'schrecks and a reduction in the cost/tech level of Stg44s, I think we'd see Storms being used far more often and for what they're supposed to be used for instead of as glorified artillery spotters, hit-and-run units, and 'those guys you got with the Tiger'.

[Starfisher]

Thread tagged.

I direct everyone's attention to the sticky at the top of this forum. In an effort to organize things more effectively and hopefully cut back on the less than worthwhile threads, I am starting to enforce them more strictly. This thread is fine, except that tagging it helps slightly with organization.

[Alcorr]

If this change were implemented along with a strengthening of 'schrecks and a reduction in the cost/tech level of Stg44s, I think we'd see Storms being used far more often and for what they're supposed to be used for instead of as glorified artillery spotters, hit-and-run units, and 'those guys you got with the Tiger'.

Lol amen to that!

I agree, I do not neccesarily think that shreck dmg to vehicles should be raised unless building dmg is lowered, but all other points I agree with you on.

Perhaps the included halftrack could be some sort of non upgradable halftrack? No walking stuka option or flamethrowers, just transport.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

The problem with these comparisons is that people rarely look at reinforcement cost which is a major factor in infantry balancing. For exmaple there's Rangers and Riflemen. Rangers cost 400 to call in, Riflemen cost 270. But Rangers are 30 to reinforce and Riflemen are 22. Rangers only pay a premium for the call in.

I'm not sure of a Stormtroopers reinforce cost unfortunatley or I would do that comparison.

Anyways, I think a Volks + Stormtrooper combination is the most cost effective choice that provides maximum flexibility and options. The units are synergistic. Volks can fight from a distance with the stormtroopers or provide assault firepower after the Stormtroopers clear an MG. RUshing in against BARs after clearing an MG nest wouldnt work with two stormtrooper squads and 3 Volks squads wouldnt fare too well against a supported MG.

It's like trying to pick a single allied unit that's cost effective against axis heavy tanks. Kinda difficult since, well, they arnt, except when deployed together.

[sgb]

Aside from making the 'schreks better vs. vehicles and worse vs. buildings, I think the munitions cost needs to be lowered a bit for stormtroopers and grenadiers. 75 per weapon is a bit steep when volks can upgrade the whole squad for 50. 150 munitions to make your squad useful is just too steep.

[Bridger]

Storms are def the 2nd best infantry in the game next to rangers.

When i camo useful? Think AT guns. I can't counter the number of times i've snuck a storm squad in ahead of my assault to bundle grenade the AT gun then rape any MG that lay nearby with MP44s

And panzershrek may cost 150 munitions, but is MUCH more effective than panzerfaust, which misses half the time for 50 munitions and does paltry damage to tanks.

Also camo + bundeled grenade into a garisoned building, PLUS the camo helps with recon.

Storm squads are really great, i love getting them :)

[stopgap]

the thing i dont get is why the axis get the ONLY cloaked infantry in the BLITZ tree... wouldnt this seem like something more likely to come in the defense tree?

[Busby]

Storms are fine until a Ranger squad/Jeep spots them and they are mowed down by MGs and Snipers...

[Vicious_CB]

100 should upgrade your whole squad with mp44s
150 should give the whole squad shreks

ie rangers get the entire squad decked out with thompsons for 100
airborne get 2 RRs for 125

same with grens,paying 150 for 2 LMGs is absurd when allies get 3 BARs per squad for a 1 time cost

[DrunkenOne]

giving the entire squad heavy weapons makes them terribly imbalanced. 4 shreks? Insanity. 100 should give 2 heavy weapons (shreks or mp44s) instead of the current 75 apiece (150 for 2).

[Tankcommander]

As many have said before, you don't want to use them as general infantry, you have volks and (sometimes) grenadiers for that. Their best use is to sneak behind enemy lines and reak havoc. The only time you might want to use them for general infantry is later on, maybe to protect your Tiger or Stuh42. And when upgraded, they aren't to bad at that.

Personally, they are my favorite infantry, with the camo, bundled grenade, and assault grenades (I love that one).

[Vicious_CB]

giving the entire squad heavy weapons makes them terribly imbalanced. 4 shreks? Insanity. 100 should give 2 heavy weapons (shreks or mp44s) instead of the current 75 apiece (150 for 2).

Not the whole squad i mean just 2 shreks,it should work just like the paras and RRs. Pay one cost get 2 weapons

[c4dillon]

I love STs... they are one of my favorite specialist infantry troops in the game.

That said, the 75 mu for one shrek or mp44 is a bit high, I would think 60 is a more reasonable number given how easily these guys are taken out by a sherman.

The reduced cost of the weapons would help put them a little closer to paras in terms of effectiveness... the mp44 does help to make them better anti-inf than paras, but it comes very late in the game, and there's still only 4 guys in the squad, which hurts them too.

[Alcorr]

100 should upgrade your whole squad with mp44s
150 should give the whole squad shreks

ie rangers get the entire squad decked out with thompsons for 100
airborne get 2 RRs for 125

same with grens,paying 150 for 2 LMGs is absurd when allies get 3 BARs per squad for a 1 time cost

Agreed.

storms are def the 2nd best infantry in the game next to rangers.

Did you just say rangers were best infantry in game? :lol:

Sorry but with that bazooka performance, thats just funny.

[Dryden]

But rangers can pick up ATWs and with 4 of them rangers ROCK.
So its a question of 'who picks?' - rangers pick up shreks or STs pick up bazookas :)

[Virus Wince]

Storms are better cos they have better name. :guitar:

[Sporky]

Storms are better cos they have better name. :guitar:
Best argument... ever...

[FootKnight]

I really like Vicious' idea, about the 1 cost for 2 Shreks/MP44s/LMG42s. Would make it slightly cheaper for the squad to get them, and give it to them a little faster, making it easier on the player. Have you posted that in the suggestions thread yet?

[bbos]

no one ever use the bliz doc anyways

[Dominans]

I always use blitz and very successfully aswell. I love sturmsquads, they protect me from early M10s and ACs until i can get a tiger out. Let's not forget AT-gun killing like some mentioned earlier. My only request is to increase the squad to 5. As it is now, I always have to retreat the squad when it takes two casualties, otherwise i will lose the very expensive weapons.

[Tankcommander]

Actually, I think you can lose all but one guy, and if you reinforce, you get your weapons back. Can somebody confirm this?

[Bridger]

Well you get bazookas for free, what do you expect? A panzershrek?

Rangers are basically the perfect compliment to riflemen with BARs who have stickies to slow down a tank while your rangers get behind them (with Fire it Up).

Or rifles use the BARs to supress infantry while your rangers with thompsons chew 'em up in 10 seconds flat.

Certainly the major disadvantage is when your firing it up to get behind a tank it's likely to crush you if you have nothing else to fight it with >_<

Certainly i think bazookas could use a little boost, and maybe rangers cost dropped to 380 (considering they need a 100 mu upgrade to make them really multi-purpose).

[Thoragoros]

Stormtroopers look great and their name instills in the mind of the player a sort of "badguy" feeling that many people love.

But here are the hard facts,

Stormtroopers with MP44 at a cost of 75 munitions gets you,
Infantry:3+2 for a grand total of 5

Volks with MP40s at 50 munitions gets you,
Infantry:2+5 for a grand total of 7. (plus there is an extra gun firing to boot.)

Thus for infantry combat the volks upgraded as opposed to upgraded Stormtroopers are better.

Now, for 75 munitions you can also get a pnazerschreck, but why? these tyhigns cost a bundle, and have a 1 out of 3-4 chance of hitting their target. And even when they hit they hardly do any damage, so what is the purpose?

[DrunkenOne]

Once again stop looking at the numbers...

[Vicious_CB]

Actually, I think you can lose all but one guy, and if you reinforce, you get your weapons back. Can somebody confirm this?

No you only get what the surviving guy brings back. Lose a shrek/lmg you have to rebuy. However if you get mp44s or mp40s those you do get back if you reinforce. Basically BARs,MP44s,MP40s,bazookas,RR,thompsons come back LMGs and shreks dont. anyone else seeing a pattern here?

[Thoragoros]

But the numbers effect how well they perform. What is the difference between a group of three engineers and a group of three Rangers, NUMBERS!!!!

[raydude]

Those numbers do not tell the whole story. They do not factor in range, nor do they factor in whether the firing unit is moving or not moving.

Infantry tests on PlanetCOH (http://www.forumplanet.com/planetcompanyofheroes/topic.asp?fid=20471&tid=1939135) clearly show that the upgraded Stormtruppen are superior to the upgraded Volks. In a side by side comparison (Volks upgraded to MP40s, Storms upgraded to MP44s):

Note, these are just a few points cut and pasted from the link. They are NOT they only points - the reader should make an effort to read the link himself.

1. Against Unupgraded Riflemen, 'long range', Volksgrenadiers with MP40s will lose. Against Unupgraded Riflemen, ANY range, Stormtroops with Stg44s will win.

2. Against Riflemen with BARs (Without Suppression), 'long range', Volksgrenadiers with MP40s will lose.
Stormtroops with Stg44s will be somewhat even.

3. Against Paratroops, 'long range', Volksgrenadiers with MP40s will lose. Against Paratroops, ANY range, Stormtroops with Stg44s will win.

4.Against Rangers with Thompsons, ANY range, Volksgrenadiers with MP40s will lose. Stormtroops with Stg44s will win (Read the link for details on this).

So those numbers do not tell the whole story.

[Thoragoros]

But the MP40 upgrade itself says it is not effective at long range, it says short range. All your tests say long range........

Besides that, the MP40 upgrade costs 50 munitions, and has an extra gunner.

PS,
The reason the numbers dont tell the whole story is because Relic chose not release all the numbers. We have a single number to go by. I think releasing the "secret" numbers might help straitghten alot of this out.

[raydude]

Its not my test, its a link to someone elses test. Second, as I said previously I only posted a few of the results. Go read the whole post on the link, its very informative. I'm giving you free information about extensive tests that someone did, which should help you understand better why the numbers don't tell the whole story.

If you refuse to look at that information, and instead cling to your theory that the displayed numbers are the end-all be-all of unit effectiveness, then I can't help you.

[holymoly]

range is irrelevant, MP40 and 44s are close range weapons, if you fight at a long range you lose because thats not how the gun works... the fact is at close range, both ST and Volks will kill whatever they are fighting 90% of the time

stormtrooper needs to be compaired with rangers, not volks, of course its better than volks in other cases since they can get panzershreks and volks cant.... Ranger is far more effective for the same cost... why the sneak around when you can just fire up and get pass every MG

[ZuppoX]

The heavy weapons of stormtroopers are too expensive (same for grenadiers and pumas) , but 400 MP is ok. Maybe a little nerf of 20-30 (MP) would help to buff their effctiveness.

ZuppoX

["moo"]

Well I personally like stormtroopers, but I have to admit volks can be a lot more effective depending on the situation. Plus, stormtroopers cost 8 freakin' pop cap which is a little steep for me. Then again MP44s can be effective at a slightly longer range than MP40s. Stormtroopers can also camo and can get panzerschreks which are a lot better than the panzerfaust. Would you rather pay 75 munitions for a permanent weapon or 50 munitions every time you want to do a little damage to a tank. Screw it, stormtroopers are better.

[0mar]

Don't MP44s come in at assault phase or battle phase? I know you definitely can't build them at skirmish phase.

[Dread Moose]

mp44 are both long and short range. If you notice it beats everything else at range, and then it beats everything else short range. So basically as you make your assault, you are doing damage the entire attack while you close in, or you can put your storms in heavy cover and kill from a distance and force the enemy to attack you and charge your men, and by doing that they have to get closer and all that time the damage just increases as they charge the storm troopers. That is taking into effect that suppress wasnt used. So yes storms smoke volks but come much later. so yes they are both useful.

[Vicious_CB]

MP44s are short-medium range weapons.

Do not try to take on BAR riflemen at long range,you have to move it to med-short to beat them,unless they use suppress then you lose at any range

[OiScout]

If you notice it beats everything else at range, and then it beats everything else short range.

False logic there.

But anyway, the problem with ST's camo to flank vehicles is a lot of the time the other player moves them because they have an idea of what to do. I usually hook them up with StG44s though.

[PrinceMyshkin]

Thanx Ray, very nice link.

Pretty much agree with all these:

"- Increase MG42 Team and Allied .30cal HMG team cost by 20 Manpower (New value is 280 and 260 respectively).
- Decrease Volksgrenadier cost to 260.
- Decrease Munitions cost of MG42 LMGs, Panzershrecks, and MP44 (Stg44s) to 50.
- Change the "Escalation" requirements of the MG42 LMG, Stormtroop's Bundled Grenade, and the MP44 to "Escalate to Skirmish."
- Increase Ranger Bazooka accuracy. Riflemen that pick up a Bazooka are significantly more accurate than Rangers.
- Remove Ranger Stealth Spotting OR add Stealth Spotting to Knight's Cross (Either of these solutions are TEMPORARY and will not fix the current imbalance stealth provides. The best solution? Rework Stealth entirely).
- Knight's Cross in their current iteration are totally useless. At 385 Manpower and a Tier 4 requirement, they are inferior to UNUPGRADED Grenadiers. Volksgrenadiers with the MP40 upgrade are vastly superior to the Knight's Cross.
- Grenades and the Blitzkrieg Commander Tree "Grenadier Assault" ability are both extremely ineffective against units that are Garrisoned in a building.
- Remove the ability to Pin from Suppression Fire.
- Reduce Ostwind moving accuracy and movement speed."

As posted by 1stStrikeRecon.

I would add that shrek's accuracy has to increades a bit as well.

All these suggestions will stomp riflemen spam and MG spam and will promote a more flexible, based on a greater variety of units. :)

[Jeopardia_Ferdy]

I think ST's are pretty fine (except the fact that they could use one more member...)
I usually use them to hunt down ATs, Mortars, MGs and Tanks (equipping em with one MP44 and one Shreck per squad) at the end of the game most of the time I have four squads with elite upgrades...and damn they rock!
(If you know how to handle em) for infantry killing I use the StuH (yes i acutally use it and that pretty well=)

But I have a nother problem with the ST's some times when 2 or more men get killed and I retread and reinforce em I am not able to build a Panzershreck anymore only another MP44...any one else have this problem?

cheers_jeo

[Thoragoros]

Right now if the Stormtroopers run into a sniper, due to their low numbers they are rendered defensless, like someone above said. Furthermore, evyerone keeps reffering to their ATs, but what is the purpose of these wepaons since they rarely if ever hit?

[Jeopardia_Ferdy]

If you let run em around the map with camo OFF then you should buy Grenadiers instead...
infact I use ST's fpr sniper killing aswell, just lure the sniper with some volks/pioneers to reveal its position...then get your camoed ST's exactly to the snipers position then reveal em and spot the sniper to kill him, the enemy will, most of the times do not move the sniper cuz he didnt c any inf closing in...when ST's are reveald the sniper is surrounded ;)

[PrinceMyshkin]

Ferdy again I have a feeling you are talking about team games mate. I do agree with Thoragoros.

[Jeopardia_Ferdy]

U R right as mentioned in the other post, I talk about team games...

[Quercus]

I have found that as with Grens and KCs, their low numbers make them far to vulnerable to tank, AT, bazooka or rocket fire.
The main use for them is as stealth units but even that is limited - to do anything (even cap a point) they have to reveal themselves and the Allies seem to be able to spot them too easily even when they are stealthed and staying out of the way.

And the pop cap is too high - it could do with being reduced to 6.

[PrinceMyshkin]

I would like to see Grenadier and KCH 5 member squads...

[Vicious_CB]

mysh 5 members to a KCH squad is just too much...

As of now Stormtroopers are like pinatas, you beat them up a bit and they drop candy(ie. shreks and lots of exp)

[milkycookie]

yeah, the funny thing is that they are stormtroopers...why do stormtroopers need to camo? time to put the storming back in them.

[PrinceMyshkin]

Ok 4 4 Kch. :)

[0mar]

The only thing good about Stormtroopers are their grenades. It can easily wipe out a squad.

However, 400 MP and using the blitz tree? No way. Blitz tree needs to be upped in power, comparable to the Terror tree, for them to be useful. I also wouldn't mind seeing them come out with a heavy weapon, or having the MP44 available at Skirmish phase.

[Vicious_CB]

It would be great if the "squad leader" in each Storm squad acutally had a mp44 instead of a quasi kar98. Even when you get BOTH mp44 upgrades you will notice him only firing 1 shot while his buddies go full auto WTF

1st mp44 upgrade gets you 2 mp44s
2nd mp44 upgrade gets you 1 mp44 for 75 mu

[Guerra]

Okay, Stormtroopers are my favorite unit in the game.

Simple as that.

They aren't regular infantry, so don't use them like that. This is not some RTS game for people with ADD. Use your imagination. Stormtroopers are perfect for laying ambushes, perfect for sneaking up on that well defended howitzer, anti tank guns, or even a lonely calliope.

Panzershreks are more accurate than bazookas and recoiless rifles, they do 120 damage (shermans only do 87.5 damage, bazookas do 85 damage, and RRs do even less damage).

Two MP44s make stormtroopers the most effective anti-infantry infantry (not including MGs or supression)

Anyways. Stormtroopers can sneak past an enemy's defenses, pop up and just blow up their tank depot or vehicle yard or whatever you like.

The main point is, stormtroopers must be upgraded with either MP44s or panzershreks. Specialize them. I like to have 3 ST squads, 2 with panzershreks (thats 4 panzershreks doing 120 damage each, total of 480 damage. Shermans have a little over 600 damage. So two volleys is enough to kill a sherman) and one ST squad with MP44s to deal with infantry.

Use stormtroopers camoflage to take full advantage of them. They are ambush troops and sneak troops. DO NOT USE THEM IN A FRONTAL ASSAULT.

[Vicious_CB]

The main point is, stormtroopers must be upgraded with either MP44s or panzershreks.

Thank you for proving my point. Storms are almost worthless unupgraded,they also cost a ridiculous 400 mp,and to upgrade them it costs a fortune. Then there is the fact that they drop like flies to shermans and gives them insane exp for doing it. Who the hell has 150 to spend on them anway when you can use that to give 3 volks squads mp40s.

Trust me Ive used them extensively in 2 mp44s. They are JUST as effective as volks close range and more effective at med-long range. Meaning you pat 150 MU to range increase where you can just get your volks up close and do the job cheaper

[Guerra]

Of course stormtroopers are worthless unupgraded. Riflemen unupgraded are worthless too!

Plus, you don't use stormtroopers are soley anti-inf, you only have 1 anti inf MP44 squad to protect your 2 ST panzershrek squads from enemy inf.

Understand?

Volks are garbage.

Learn to use camoflage.

Add me ingame: Guerra

I'll teach you somethings. (I mean that in a friendly way, not threatening)

[Sephlock]

Stormies are good for the following things:

1: Using their bundled grenades to take care of foritifed opponents (infantry in buildings or AT guns).

2: Taking out clumps of infantry with the aforementioned bundled grenades.

3: Cloaking & holding fire, then getting behind an armored vehicle and ripping it to shreds with their panzerfausts.

4: Anti-infantry cleanup if your opponent does not have BARs, or if you feel confident that you can cloak and get up close, then mow down the enemy before your opponent can move his screen to the site of the attack and hit the surpressing fire hotkey.

Granted, numbers 3 and 4 require 150 munitions to be spent, but hey, that still leaves 1 and 2... stormies are great at breaking enemy defensive positions. Their only real flaw (aside from high cost, and cost of reinforcing) is their screwy cloaking (sometimes they uncloak seemingly at random, other times some members of their squad won't cloak).

--- Its worth noting, however, that there is a very real danger that your stormies will simply end up feeding your opponent free panzershreks, which will result in an axis defeat faster than you can say "ach du lieber!"

... Come to think of it, mp44s aren't droppable, are they? At least I've never seen em drop...

Hmm, well still, panzershreks being dropped = bad. Very, very bad.

[Guerra]

They are panzershreks (panzerfaust is what volks get)

and if they hold fire and haven't been spotted then they all are invisible.

MP44 is droppable.

[Vicious_CB]

MP44 is droppable.

What!? are you crack mp44s dont drop.

The only weapons that drop are LMGs,BARs,shreks,zookas and RRs

Volks are garbage.

I disagree, they are the most useful inf. in the game and remain so throughout an entire game as seen by the poll above

Learn to use camoflage.

I do its just that 1 sq member f*cks up and uncamos even with hold fire on. Other than that I find their only use is to camo and bundle garrisons,AT guns and mg teams. Basically their only use is ninjaing around killing things with their super grenade. Other than that all their other roles can be filled by other more cost effecive units

[Guerra]

MP44 is droppable, MP40 is not.

I know for a fact that the MP44 is droppable because when my stormtroopers died, I picked up the MP44.

Volks are only good early on. They become obsolete very quickly.

and I think your assessement on stormtroopers is wrong. Like I said, add me ingame and we'll play a game, and I'll show you how to use stormtroopers well.

[Sephlock]

IIRC the KCH use MP44s... do they ever drop their weapons? And while we're on the subject, is it worth it to pick up BARs with KCH?

... and hey, what happens if you pick up a stormtrooper's mp44 with a KCH unit? Nothing? :D?

[blah238]

KCH don't drop their MP44s, and no picking up a BAR will leave you worse off. In fact picking anything up with KCH makes you worse off.

[Guerra]

I've had KC's pickup MP44s, it gave them a bonus on the against infantry, however, I wonder if it actually works.

I have had some KC's with a LMG42, which was pretty nice, held off 6 or so rifle squads

[Vicious_CB]

Seriously guerra what are you smoking.

KCH COME WITH MP44s so how would they be able to pick one up.

I WILL BET YOU MY PENIS THAT MP44s ARE NOT DROPPABLE

[blah238]

I think he was talking about MP44s that Stormtroopers dropped and KCH subsequently picked up. Although the point of that escapes me.

[Tankcommander]

Grenadiers with MG42s are scary and powerful, man I'd never want to face KCHs with one.....

[Vicious_CB]

I think he was talking about MP44s that Stormtroopers dropped and KCH subsequently picked up. Although the point of that escapes me.

No he was definately trying to say that mp44s drop like AT weapons do as in they have a white circle around them and when you put your cursor over it turns into a little hand indicating that it can be picked up by another unit

THIS IS NOT THE CASE

http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=118382

[Victrix Legio]

I can confirm with 95% certainty that Stg44s do not drop like 'schrecks or BARs. A weapon needs to have a 'true' value in its 'support weapon' slot in the files to be droppable; 'schrecks and BARs have such a value, while Stg44s have a 'false' value.

[Sephlock]

Ya I thought so- at least, I'd never seen them drop ingame. Come on Guerra, whats with the leading me down the garden path -_-?

[Guerra]

Hmm. I'm pretty certain my stormies dropped MP44, sometimes weapons are destroyed when the units die, especially when its a particularly gruesome death, e.g. artillery.

I could be wrong. Let me test it out.

But anyways, back to the topic.

Stormtroopers are not ideal anti-inf units. They are best for anti-building and anti-tank duties, with a squad of MP44 to protect the panzershrek squad(s) from enemy infantry.

[Vicious_CB]

Wow there are some really hard headed people in this forum

Look at the replay I posted.(http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=118382 (showthread.php?t=118382))

I sent 10 ST squads fully loaded with mp44s at MG nests to get mowed down and shermans to get blown apart. THEY DONT DROP MP44s!!!! Cmon Guerra,Ill play allies and you use stormtroops. We'll see what happens

[PrinceMyshkin]

I WILL BET YOU MY PENIS THAT MP44s ARE NOT DROPPABLE

OMG... :censored:

Yup, I do confirm MP44s are not dropable.

[Guerra]

Sure. Anyone interested in playing me can go ahead and add me ingame.

Profile name:
Guerra

[Plan6]

Please post how this game works out. Although I support Guarra loving his favort unit, I do not support the Iron Wall of "I wont listen" hes been throwing. I dont think he truely understand how powerful the BAR is.

[Guerra]

Oh, don't get me wrong, I know the BAR is extremely powerful.

MP44 stormtroopers will beat BAR riflemen at close and medium range (aslong as the rifles aren't vets) if the rifles don't use supress.

Also, stormies can sneak up, throw bundled grenade, then you can just mop up any survivors. Ideally you want to avoid the supression.

Anyways, I don't think any unit is useless in the game, while I may not be good with one unit, like the nebelwerfer, doesn't mean its totally useless, because I've seen people use them pretty effectively.

Its all about playstyle, some people like stugs and pumas, I do not. I like ostwinds and stormtroopers.

[Sephlock]

"if the rifles don't use supress."

Exactly.

...

That said, the issue is one of cost effectiveness.... the Nebelwerfer, for example, is horrendously expensive given the effect it has on the battlefield (that is, little to none, except to give your opponent a free weak artillery piece).

[Vicious_CB]

Volks > STs as short range inf killers as they are move effective and cost 120mp and 100 mu less

grens > STs as AT inf and cost 100 mp less

grens > STs as long range anti-inf with LMGs.

KCH > STs in the pure anti-inf role as they have great resistance against suppression at 10 mp less

The only redeeming thing they have is bundle + camo. which is great against garrisons or weap teams but after throwing a bundle I find myself having to retreat my STs as weap teams usually have some kind of support.

They just dont fill a real crital role nor do they have a great cost vs effectivness

like the nebelwerfer, doesn't mean its totally useless,

I agree, it has 1 use and that is HUMILIATION!!! Nothing like makeing 6 nebels and pounding a nubs base into dust just to toy with him. Sure it took like 10 mins but hey its for the sake of fun.

[Guerra]

Now, Vicious, please tell me how Grenadiers are better at anti tank?

Both use panzershreks, so they have the same range and accuracy, the panzershreks are the same cost, too.

Stormtroopers have more HP and are generally sturdier than Grenadiers.

Also, grens with panzershreks get shot down before they can effectively flank a tank. Stormtroopers don't have this problem since they can sneak up from behind or lay an ambush.

So I think you're just making stuff up, Vicious.

Sephlock, yes, thats why when fighting BAR riflemen I throw bundle and MP44 rush them before they get a chance to use it against my troops. The whole point of stormtroopers is suprise. I can kill a lot more enemy troops with my stormtroopers than with grenadiers.

Also, I find that cost-effectiveness is not an issue, and I'll tell you why. I like to skip the krieg barracks because of the fuel cost, stormtroopers are an excellent early anti-vehicle troop.

Anyways guys, someone please add me: Guerra
so we can play a game and post the replay.

[Vicious_CB]

Also, grens with panzershreks get shot down before they can effectively flank a tank. Stormtroopers don't have this problem since they can sneak up from behind or lay an ambush.

So I think you're just making stuff up, Vicious.

Duh lets see grens cost 100 mp less and have roughly the same acc. and damage that storms do against tanks. Looking at the numbers STs only have 10 HP more per man than grens. Much good that will do against a sherman cannon.

Also, grens with panzershreks get shot down before they can effectively flank a tank. Stormtroopers don't have this problem since they can sneak up from behind or lay an ambush.

Your ambush scenaro is flawed. I have tried using this strat but find that camoed STs just take too damn long to get behind a tank in time to actually make a difference. If your stugs are fighing off a sherman you are better off mircoing your stugs than the STs. If you are talking about sending STs to take on a tank alone. Well thats just stupid and you'll lose your STs.

I find that cost-effectiveness is not an issue

Cost effectiveness IS the issue. You play team games mostly so you always have lots of resources to throw around on crappy units. In 1v1s making the wrong unit can cost you the game.

I give up,you definitely are playing a different game than the rest of us. In your world STs are the ultimate WTFPWN units that ninja around and amush tanks kill tanks in 4 shots, wtfpwn BARs with bundle.

Guess what thats not how it works. Rifles use suppression. Shermans can 2 shot squads. GG

Now lets look at STs compared to airborne and rangers.

Rangers come with bazookas while STs have to spend 150 mu. We all know how much rangers suck against tanks but are actually pretty good against light vehicles.

Paras IMO they have the best AT weapon the game. Not because of its damage ot penetration and what not.Its because of its ACCURACY. You can always rely on them to hit a tank MOST of the time.

[Guerra]

Ok, add me ingame now and lets play. We'll see whose strategies are better.

1vs1, just how you like it. I take Axis, you take allies, ok?

Ingame name: Guerra

oh, and RR have the same accuracy as the Bazooka, and less damage.

Panzershrek has better damage and accuracy than both of them.

[Vicious_CB]

oh, and RR have the same accuracy as the Bazooka

LOL anyone who has used rangers and para extensively can attest that although they have the same acc values in the files they are no where near that accurate in game

zookas are a joke on rangers. Paras can actually take lone stugs with fire it up an RRs.Id like to see rangers do that.

Im online right now,appently you are unavailable it says i am wispering you

[Guerra]

I'm on now.

The lua scripts themselves say bazooka and RR have same accuracy. So what you are saying is impossible unless your airborne were vet

[Bentguru]

guerra, there are MAJOR differences between the numbers and what actually happens.

People have tested RR accuracy vs Bazooka, as in gone into the game and labbed it recording how many hits are registered out of how many shots.

RR's are much more accurate than bazooka's, and despite what the lua scripts show thats what reality actually is.

[Vicious_CB]

trust me the game file numbers do not tell the whole story.

zookas = very bad acc
RRs = very good acc

even if the files say they are euqal

After the game we just played wouldnt you agree that STs are just way to expensive to be useful in 1v1?

[GSurge]

I'm on now.

The lua scripts themselves say bazooka and RR have same accuracy. So what you are saying is impossible unless your airborne were vet
Just by playing through the singleplayer campaign you should know that Ranger's AT accuracy is horrible compared to that of Paras.

[Guerra]

RRs might seem more accurate because the round shoots faster, but with stationary targets they have the same accuracy. Its a matter of numbers. Just download the Corsix's mod tools for CoH and DoW. So RRs are more accurate against moving targets, but the same against stationary tanks, vehicles, etc.

and Vicious, it was just a poor opening by me, I barely had enough for a flamethrower, so I don't think thats the case. 80% of the game is resource control, as I'm sure you know.

Edit:
I'm looking at the script, at the accuracy modifier for the RR and Bazooka and found out some interesting stuff.

The bazooka has a better to hit against Ostwinds, Tigers & Panthers than RR, but RR has advantage at taking out Stugs and Panzers. So could this be why?

Download Corsix DoW & CoH mod, attributes, weapons, find the ones you want to compare and look at the "Target table" subfolder, and look at the multipliers against each unit.

Weird stuff.

[Vicious_CB]

Sort of a repeat post from the Gren thread but here goes

Idea: Storms get smoke a screen similar to a mortars smokescreen

Cost 20 MU
Cooldown 10 secs
Available when built, no upgrade needed

Reason: Storms are supposed to assult troops as indicated by their name so why are they being used as ninjas? I say give them an ability to allow them to actually assault things,GIVE THEM SMOKE. Allows them to run up against MGs and such to take them out close with mp44s.

Simply put it this way. It works LIKE fire it up but costs MU and isnt a clone ability yet allows STs to run pasts MGs & MG nests to do some real behind the front like paras and rangers.


shoot it down or let it fly folks!

http://jawsmaps.urldownload.com/images/ECOH/relic00019.jpg

taken from deuce4 modding group

[guardsman lover]

Hmm...strange.....last time I checked it seems that different weapons have different drop rates. While shreks and bazookas seem to drop 80% of the time, it seems that riflemen drop BARS even after they're all dead about 20% of the time.

As for those STG44s, the KCH don't drop theirs, but the stormtroopers drop theirs 1/100. I've seen it happen when my storms got slaughtered. However, they picked up the STG44 as I reinforced them back.

[Trenchgun]

I've never fully understood why stormtroopers are able to cloak, as they're supposed to represent either Panzergrenadiers or, more likely, Waffen SS, neither of whom were exactly covert ops units (I know, I know, history sucks, Allies would always win, reality is irrelevant, etc.).

It's suppose to represent the fact that stormtroopers are trained and tasked with assaulting and infiltrating enemy lines, going around hard points to attack positions from the flanks or rear.


I found stormtroopers a lot more useful in beta, where they could run at full speed while cloaked - They were a lot more versatile then.
I find it much more difficult to make use of the stormtrooper's slow paced camo in fluid and fast paced 1vs1 games.

[Vicious_CB]

I agree camo is quite useless in any fast paced battles only being used to get the drop on a garrison or get behind a bunker. Other that trying to sneak up on a tank it will most likely be gone before you get into position.

I dont think making them able to move a normal speed wouldnt be too over powered. Maybe making them easier to spot to balance it out a bit. That would make them see more action in my book.

[Tankcommander]

Well one guy usually always gets himself uncloaked as is....

[STALKER - Arach]

get 2-3 storms with full panzershreak and sneak into the enemies base and move behind the hq - uncloak and fire panzershreaks away untill hq crumbles :P thats a rather fun tactic. So storm troopers are effective at ambushes.