Dev Questions re Maya

[verybad]

Will Homeworld 2 support modern versions of Maya (Maya 4.5-5.0) or just Maya 3.0?

Will texture assignment for models in Maya be directly imported into HW2?

Can specific properties for models in Homeworld be assigned in Maya? (eg engine thrust, particle emisison, etc.)

Can LODs associated with a model in Maya be directly imported into homeworld, or is this a two step process?

Can Object/Particle behavior through melscripts be imported into Homeworld other than as a series of keyframes (ie mathematical behavior as opposed to a list of places to be).

Thank you for your time :)

[Legion-KN]

In some Previews they said it will be Maya 4.5 Personal Learning Edition. Thats all i know.

[A176]

If Relic is still sticking with their .shp formats, I'm thinking many of those things will be addressed in those files. However right now, the answer to most of your questions are "wait and see :)"...unless someone wants to fill us in *cough*

[Dawn Falcon]

Personally I'm oping to be able to work in other modeling programs as much as I can. Maya PLE is...annoying

[The5thElephant]

Why is it annoying? Maya PLE 4.5 is much better than 4.0 and just has that damn watermark. Otherwise it is very powerful and good for making models for a mod.

[Captain Pierce]

You shouldn't have to learn an entire new modelling program just to mod a game. Us Homeworld modders have been doing just fine making our models in whatever we want and then using 3D Exploration to convert them. :)

Don't get me wrong, I think it's great to make the game work with something like Maya PLE or Gmax or whatever free modelling software the team wants--it's great for people who have no other access to modelling software. But there are people out there who already have this type of software, and to restrict them to one program, whatever it is is not IMHO a good thing.

[A176]

Lucky for you, Maya is bitch easy to learn :)

[beiltan]

Maya?

[Dawn Falcon]

*snickers*

[SvK]

I can't stand Maya PLE's watermark!

[flipper]

Actually, there is a distinct possibility that HW2 may be directly compatible with Gmax at some point, via Gmax game packs.

According to one of the pages on the Gmax website, (here (http://www.discreet.com/products/gmax/gmax-ready.html)), Impossible Creatures has an upcoming Gmax game pack. So if Relic is using them once, why not again?

Hopefully, if there will be a Gmax pack for HW2, it will be released sooner (after HW2 release) rather than later, as with IC.

[Dawn Falcon]

Well, I have 3ds max (v5, student) so that would be..useful.

[verybad]

Originally posted by Captain Pierce
You shouldn't have to learn an entire new modelling program just to mod a game. Us Homeworld modders have been doing just fine making our models in whatever we want and then using 3D Exploration to convert them. :)

Don't get me wrong, I think it's great to make the game work with something like Maya PLE or Gmax or whatever free modelling software the team wants--it's great for people who have no other access to modelling software. But there are people out there who already have this type of software, and to restrict them to one program, whatever it is is not IMHO a good thing.

I'm not asking anyone to learn a new program. Maya is the most powerful 3d software available however, and I'm very, very well versed in it. I know the development team for HW2 is using Maya, so I was hoping some of their tools would be made available for Maya users. Maya happily imports and exports objs with their UVs, and grouping intact, so it's usable with may other apps. Maya has an internal scripting language (called MEL for Maya Embedded Language) that makes the proggie extremely powerful, if some of these mel scritps can be exported with some functionality to Homeworld (unlikely I know), the end result could be extremely powerful.

[Ammon Ra]

Maya 3.0 ple WILL be required to mod MW2. That sucks like the brown stu...you get the idea ;)

Q:Now seriously, WHy on earth would they do sucha thing?
A: they're not from earth :p

exporting and converting formats from program X through 3D exploration was easy. and now they want to restrickt modability????

What happened to the Easy modability of HW1?????? it wasn't even designed to be as modable as it turned out to be.....

So YES MAya PLE 3.0 (or the original 4.5/5???) will be REQUIRED to mod HW2. it sucks like..yes yes...the brown stuff...:( :[

[verybad]

Well I didn't like the 3de option personally, (and it's not likely they used the exact same formats either, so that ones out in any case)
In terms of conversion, if Maya PLE will import OBJs (and is supported) than other programs should be well supported through that option.

If it supports modern versions of Maya, than I'll be happy.

[Swifty]

Maya sucks.
LW , 3d max , Milkshape are much better tools. The later best for modding because its built for modding. Anyways Maya will NOT be required. They say that cause they have a deal with the makers of Maya. They used Maya for HW1. What ever the format you will be able to export it to HW2 format with either a 3rd party prgram ie 3d Ex or a home built exporter (hints at delphy , spooky and that)

Lets not get our knickers in a twist - Lets concetate our questions on the new sections of modding. Single player and coding stuff.

[verybad]

Hmm, and why would you say Maya sucks? It's much more highly regarded in professional circles than the apps you mentioned-milkshape isn't even regarded professionally. I'm not going to fall for flamebait, but I'm curious as to how you came to that conclusion- it's incorrect.

[Zefram]

how could you say milkshape is better than maya, milkshape sucks balsh... you make me sick

[Swifty]

well for one maya has a very high learning curve. And Milkshape doesnt.
And i have had expirence in all main modeling packages and found Milkshape a hell of alot easier to use for modeling for low polyon engines such as Homeworld. Homeworld 2 is not that different. Yes the polygon range has gone up but not much in comparsion to say Heagmonia.
And you mentioned you didnt want to make this into a flamebait.
Lol i thought by forcing opion on people 'it's in correct' was the source of flaming :P .

Anywho why do people even care about the cost of maya or woteva. You dont have to buy there are other sources.

[Fitz]

Anywho why do people even care about the cost of maya or woteva. You dont have to buy there are other sources.


Mention or discussion of Illegal software distribution is strictly prohibited everywhere on these boards. I have brought this post to the attention of the relevant moderator.

[Pike]

Swifty has been shot out of the nearest Ion Cannon for his comments.

[Zefram]

he was only shot out? what a shame. anyway, back to topic, if they get a good thing sorted out with maya ple i will download that otherwise im just going to stick with max and convert my models the old fashioned way.

[Captain Pierce]

Originally posted by flipper
Actually, there is a distinct possibility that HW2 may be directly compatible with Gmax at some point, via Gmax game packs.

According to one of the pages on the Gmax website, (here (http://www.discreet.com/products/gmax/gmax-ready.html)), Impossible Creatures has an upcoming Gmax game pack. So if Relic is using them once, why not again?

Hopefully, if there will be a Gmax pack for HW2, it will be released sooner (after HW2 release) rather than later, as with IC.

Discreet, the maker of Gmax (and of course 3D Studio Max), provides Gmax free-of-charge. Apparently, they are not similarly generous with the SDK that allows game developers to build mod tools that work with Gmax; in fact, it's been said that they charge quite extravagantly for it. Also apparently, Microsoft ponied up the jack for the use of Gmax for IC, Sierra was not willing to do so, and it was either beyond Relic's purview as game developer or their financial means, I don't know which. Not that I know what you mean by "upcoming" game pack--Gmax is already necessary for the use of Relic's IC mod tools, in the same way that Maya/Maya PLE will be necessary for use of the HW2 mod tools.

While Swifty is quite clearly an idiot, he does have a certain point. For purposes of game modding, Milkshape is a better program for people to use than something like Maya, Lightwave, 3DS Max, etc. It's easier to learn, it doesn't have tons of huge high-end features that you won't ever use anyway, and of course it costs about 1% of any of those. ;) Obviously, if you're planning to do the CG for "Starship Troopers," you're not going to be sitting there saying: "Hmmm... Alias/Wavefront, or Milkshape? I just can't decide!" But, if all you're doing is low-poly game models, there's really no reason to use those fabulously expensive rigs...

As for importing, my understanding is that Maya PLE imports exactly squat. Quite to the contrary, Alias seems to have gone to great lengths to keep PLE from being used for anything other than Learning how to use Maya. Its models are stored in a completely proprietary format, and any texture you use in it gets a nice annoying watermark, as SvK has alluded to. This, BTW, is the reason I doubt that Relic's "trying to work" with Alias to use PLE as the basis of the HW2 mod tools will end in success... :hmm:

[verybad]

Hmm, Well then so long as we can get OBJs into the frickin thing I'll be happy. Maya has gone down considerably in price it's no longer a 20,000 dollar program, milkshape is obviously cheaper, but the tools Maya has can really improve the experence, and help the end result. Now the main thing isof course the artist, and I've seen great work out of all sorts of programs. Just Saying Maya sucks kind of angered me, cause that's what I've been using for several years, and ... well you get the picture.

[Swiftiee]

Originally posted by Pike
Swifty has been shot out of the nearest Ion Cannon for his comments. May I take his user name? :flamer:

[ToastedLightly]

Damn hyienas....

[Ammon Ra]

i have truespace v3.2 (origanal, came with pcf), and gmax is more than sufficie0nt for making decent models. just get the tempest gamepack, and convert via 3dexplorer or any other converting tool.

the problem with restricting to maya, is that animations and ingame cutscens are also controlled via maya...right? so how would you convert those from, say 3dsmax/lightwave??

[Durandel]

I've just downloaded & installed Maya PLE to explore the avenues for modelling HW2 ships. I bring a complete novice's opinion to this thread. Please shoot me down if you know better; I'll be delighted.

To begin with, in the PLE there does not seem to be any means of importing or exporting OBJ files (or any other model format so far as I can see). I think CP is quite right; this is deliberate and unlikley to change. It's doubful that an expensive professional product will be adapted to give HW2 modders a freebie.

I also note some other bits and bobs from news and interviews that are discouraging, such as the absence of a MOD selection screen...

Personally I'm beginning to think the worst. Though it's still early the RDN has not been a rip-roaring success (see HW: Eternal Vengance & Blitz). I feel that modding is (understandably) being considered as a very low priority by Relic.

In any event, I will be shelving all HW2 "Ship Mod" ideas until there are some concrete facts and cheap/free tools. If no such resources become available I can see an awful lot of abandoned MODs in the future.

[Voidhawk]

I'm wondering of all the people in this thread who are expressing opinions about these proggys whether you have actually used them ALL to any great extent or have we just found our favorite corners and that's all folks?

[Retroboy]

When choosing between a reasonably good tool that I have 100 hours of experience in, or a very good tool that I have zero hours of experience in, I'd think the former would win most of the time. :)

IMO it says something that Relic elected to use Maya, no?

-- Retro

[Dawn Falcon]

Maya can import standard Maya files. Hence, just model as usualy and use a converter. You CANNOT do that with GMAX!

Also, Milkshape is designed for FPS modeling, and it's great for that and ONLY that

[Captain Pierce]

Regular Maya can import other files; the PLE (or so I'm given to understand by a friend who downloaded it when it was first released) cannot. This may have changed since then, admittedly...

As for Milkshape, with all due respect, Dawn Falcon, you might want to take a look at something like the Great Wars B5 mods before running down its suitability for Homeworld modding. GW1-3 have been created using exclusively Milkshape, and their ships are some of the best-looking ones currently available for Homeworld.

[Skeeter]

Can we not just model like we do in say lightwave or milkshape and just save as a universaly recognized format, like .obj and import it into maya and just save as hw2 format?

[Captain Pierce]

Not in the PLE, no. The PLE was originally designed as a VERY limited tool to show people what Maya was capable of, and nothing else. As I said above, it has no import capability whatsoever. The full versions of Maya will import files, but of course they start at $2000...

[Zefram]

i did read that relic had hopes of coming to some sort of arrangement with alias so that hw2 formats may be import/exportable in the PLE version.. if this happens it will be good... but im a bit slow with the news so maybe that ones already been socked.

[Captain Pierce]

Well, here's what Dan Irish had to say in a recent interview on GameAxis (http://www.gameaxis.com/articles/view.gax?id=143):

Relic will continue supporting the mod community too. Some of our tools will be released, like the special effects tool, once they are properly documented and improved. Others require a license to Maya 3.0 or PLE. We'll have more details on exactly what tools will be available, as we get closer to the launch date. The Relic Developer Network (http://www.relic.com/rdn/index.php ) will continue to support our products with release versions of the tools and documentation.

Now, whether "a license to Maya 3.0 or PLE" means that the tools will work with either one, or that some tools will work only with 3.0 and others will work only with PLE is beyond me. So I don't know if that's good news or not...

[Delphy]

I believe the negotiations are still ongoing with regards to PLE.

One thing I'd like to point out is that the mapping will probably also be done in Maya and not a seperate program. Thus it may be a requirement if/until user tools come out...

[mecha]

mapping is done in maya, the output is a text file

[Delphy]

mapping is done in maya, the output is a text file


So we could easily build another map maker around the text file to save people using Maya....

[Captain Pierce]

Or possibly just do the same Wordpad end-run around the whole process as most people do now?

[Dawn Falcon]

unfortunately, that excludes a lot of people who need to have a visual reference what they're doing. Myself included. (I know a few people who can make 3d models by tapping vertex coordernates into text files, and I never understood how they could do it either.)

I'd rather have a 3d utility made by the community for it.