Let's duscuss flaming and related concepts

[Rocker]

In a thread I recently posted the topic of flaming has come up, so since I did not want the thread to go off topic I created this thread with a pointer to it.

I think part of the communications problem might be that many here do not understand what is meant by flaming in the context of Forums communications. Mind you, this forum is pretty well administered, but because so many Internet Forums are not it becomes impossible to communicate clearly or maintain a thread without it turning into name calling or going off topic by means of trolling. I see some of that here, and young gamers may not understand the ideas, It is important that you understand it so you might choose not to do it because we all want to be responsible to communicate clearly as we can here, since Forums or BBSs are quite literal, right?

Here is the Wikipedia definition, which might help.


Flaming is the hostile and insulting interaction between Internet users. Flaming usually occurs in the social context of a discussion board, Internet Relay Chat (IRC) or even through e-mail. An Internet user typically generates a flame response to other posts or users posting on a site, and is usually not constructive, does not clarify a discussion, and does not persuade others. Sometimes, flamers attempt to assert their authority, or establish a position of superiority over other users. Other times, a flamer is simply an individual who believes he or she carries the only valid opinion. This leads him or her to personally attack those who disagree. Occasionally, flamers wish to upset and offend other members of the forum, in which case they can be called "trolls". Most often however, flames are angry or insulting messages transmitted by people who have strong feelings about a subject.

Some equate flaming with simply letting off steam, though the receiving party may be less than pleased. Similarly, a normal, non-flame message may have elements of a flame -- it may be hostile, for example -- but it is not a flame if its author seriously intends to advance the discussion. The word flaming is also sometimes used for long, intensive and heated discussions, even though insults do not occur.

Although the trading of insults is as old as human speech, flaming on the Internet, like many other online 'actions,' started in the Usenet hierarchies (although it was known to occur in the WWIVnet and FidoNet computer networks as well).

The term "flaming" is believed to be a reference to the Marvel Comic superhero the Human Torch of the Fantastic Four. After the accident which gave Johnny Storm the ability to become a human torch, he was initially unable to control when he would burst into flames. He learned to control his powers by saying "Flame on" which would initiate the transformation into a human torch and he would return to his normal state by saying "Flame off." Since early users of the asynchronous text communication wanted to distinguish their angry/insulting/sarcastic portions of their response from their serious statements, they would prefix their angry/insulting/sarcastic text with "Flame on" and indicate the end of such statements with "Flame off".


I hope that helps. I wish admins would use this definition to corral users into interacting as responsible adults. Look, even if you are a young person you can think about how you might be perceived and understand when you post inappropriately. The reality is the Internet is a troubled place for communications because of the anonymity aspect. Let me define what I mean by anonymity .



Here is the Wikipedia definition, which might help.


Anonymity and social situations

Anonymity may reduce the accountability one perceives to have for their actions, and removes the impact these actions might otherwise have on their reputation. This can have dramatic effects, both useful and harmful.

In conversational settings, anonymity may allow people to reveal personal history and feelings without fear of later embarrassment. Electronic conversational media can provide physical isolation, in addition to anonymity. This prevents physical retaliation for remarks, and prevents negative or taboo behavior or discussion from tarnishing the reputation of the speaker. This can be beneficial when discussing very private matters, or taboo subjects or expressing views or revealing facts which may put someone in physical, financial, or legal danger (such as illegal activity, or unpopular or outlawed political views).

With few perceived negative consequences, anonymous or semi-anonymous forums often provide a soapbox for disruptive conversational behavior. Some people[attribution needed] label those who do this online as Internet trolls.

Relative anonymity is often enjoyed in large crowds. Different people have different psychological and philosophical reactions to this development, especially as a modern phenomenon. This anonymity is an important factor in crowd psychology.

----

Finally, here is the definition of trolling. Mind you, there are fine lines in using these definitions- they are only useful when it applies to the Forum rules and administration of the Forum you participate in.

Here is the Wikipedia definition, which might help.


An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial messages in an on-line community such as an on-line discussion forum with the intention of baiting other users into responding emotionally. The rise of the expression "concern troll" reflects an expanded definition of troll as someone whose posts have the primary goal of disrupting or de-railing an internet community. "Troll" is also used in a broader pejorative sense to question the good faith of any Internet user who has annoyed the person using the term.

Trolling in the 1990s
The most likely derivation of the word troll can be found in the phrase "trolling for newbies," popularized in the early 1990s in the Usenet group, alt.folklore.urban. Commonly, what is meant is a relatively gentle inside joke by veteran users, presenting questions or topics that had been so overdone that only a new user would respond to them earnestly. For example, a veteran of the group might make a post on the common misconception that glass flows over time. Long-time readers would both recognize the poster's name and know that the topic had been done to death already, but new subscribers to the group would not "get it" and respond. These types of trolls served as a Shibboleth to identify group insiders. This definition of trolling, considerably narrower than the modern understanding of the term, was considered a positive contribution. One of the most notorious AFU trollers, Snopes,went on to create his eponymous urban folklore website.

By the late 1990s, alt.folklore.urban had such heavy traffic and participation that trolling of this sort was frowned upon. Others expanded the term to include the practice of playing a seriously misinformed or deluded user, even in newsgroups where one was not a regular; these were often attempts at humor rather than provocation. In such contexts, the noun troll usually referred to an act of trolling, rather than to the author.

Recently, the word troll is also frequently used as a synonym for flamebait, even though the two words have distinct meanings.

´

There you have it. I understand that this is not related to the game and might not be the correct place for such a conversation, but I felt it was important since it came up in my thread. Anonymity, flaming and trolling are terms that go hand in hand when it comes to the Internet gaming forums, and I thought this discussion might be useful especially to the younger participants. If the admin deems to let this conversation take place here, please post your comments. Let me start by asking you how flaming and trolling are affected by anonymity ? How do these behaviors affect authenticity in your own character? If you get into the habit of flaming and acting irresponsible to other community members how might it seep into other aspects of your life?

[Rottweiler|Soul]

You quoted entire Wikipedia articles ad verbatim. If you had a point other than just a simple FYI (which is spam), it got lost in the verbal diarrhea.

Which is a form of trolling, ironically enough.

[Rocker]

Yes, if it were not related to a topic on the forum. The real question is what does this have to do with COH, which is an admin call. Never the less, I felt compelled to post it here for what it is worth- in that context is an inappropriate post. It would be spam if I posted it in a thread that has noting to do with the topic. It would be trolling if my intent were to raise emotions and get folks upset and that is not my intention. Hence I am not trolling by posting this topic.

What is your take on the subject at hand?

[Kapyrna]

Much as your may want to help, and have made a good effort to do so, I
m afraid your time is wasted unless the trolls and flamers read your post with an open mind. That's unlikely to happen.

I am happy for you trying (although it's your 11th post, and I think you'll get a better feel for things after a few more months), but most of the responses this will receive will resemble the second post, which itself is no better than what it states the first post to be.

[Rocker]

Kap instead of thinking this thread is useless, how about participating by offering your feedback on the subject matter?

[Rottweiler|Soul]

I'm still wondering why you thought it necessary to quote entire Wikipedia articles ad verbatim without adding anything of substance as to your opinions on them or their relevance to this forum when, if you really wanted to direct people's attention to the concept of forum etiquette, you could have used links. Links such as this (http://forums.relicnews.com/forumdisplay.php?f=24).

[Kapyrna]

I will post my own thoughts in the morning after a good night's sleep so that I can distill my post into a cohesive idea that it neither rambles nor falls short.

A small note: I do not think this thread is useless. I think it has good merit. It requires posters to post with their brains. Also, R|S has a good idea of linking the wiki entries, or possibly [spoiler-tag] them so as to collapse the first post into a manageable size.

For future and present reference, here is Dyn's Posting Guidelines (http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=5710) thread.

[Moe]

I hope that helps. I wish admins would use this definition to corral users into interacting as responsible adults

Actually we do, but realistically with 2,000,000 posts and 15,000 users there is only so much corralling you can do. Unless you want to lock every single thread or delete every third post you're going to have to let the little things slide. Besides, at times a little banter can be productive for the discussion.

I'm not sure whether you want to talk about flaming in general, flaming in CoH or flaming on our forums. Depending on that this topic should either be moved to the general discussions area, remain here or be moved to forum issues.

Oh and I've added spoilers to make your post more readable.

[Ghostly_Gecko]

I'm very happy that someone (especially a brave new member) has decided to post a topic about this in the forum. I'm not, however, sure what to make of it.

As Rottweiler has said (twice), you quote the Wikipedia articles but then don't elaborate on anything. He's also right in that linking to the forum's own guidelines on etiquette would've been more helpful.

Also, you're attitude to younger gamers has, from my perspective, gone from being helpful and joking to condescending. Pretty much in every other post you make, you're either telling admins and mods to 'corral' younger gamers into being respectful, or you're being rather subtly insulting ("Look, even if you are a young person...").

But, since I'm being completely off-topic, I'll answer your three quasi-philosophical questions.

"Let me start by asking you how flaming and trolling are affected by anonymity?" --- Flaming and trolling are done by (as your Wikipedia references say) people wishing to incite hostility in another person/generally annoy and disrupt the forum, respectfully. The anonymity offered by the internet means that there is no punishment that can be incurred apart from losing the privilege of posting in that forum. Being anonymous results in more trolls and flamers, but thinking that they're all 12-year-olds who have no control over themselves is foolish. Plenty of forum trolls are well over 20, 30, 40 years old. The 'chan' boards (which we will hopefully never discuss) are where general misconceptions about trolls come from. Trolls (like all griefers in life) are to be found in all ages, genders, and races.

"How do these behaviors affect authenticity in your own character?" --- I don't try to be the same person in real life as on the internet. On the internet, you have to interact with a lot of complete strangers no matter what forum you're on, without any face-to-face contact. The only impressions you get of these people are their posts, their work, and their status. When I see someone with Senior Member next to their name, I form an assumption that this is a respectable member of the community. I'm really not sure how to answer your question exactly, though. Are you asking how I let flaming and trolling affect me, or how often do I flame or troll? I try to respond to trolls/flamers in an organized, calm manner, since that is usually exactly what they're not looking for. I also try to avoid flaming/trolling, since staying collected generally gets your point across more clearly, and makes sure you stay on the Mods' good sides.

"If you get into the habit of flaming and acting irresponsible to other community members how might it seep into other aspects of your life?" --- I think questions like this are cliche and entirely pointless. The answer is the ubiquitous response to every question like this. Just replace "flaming and acting irresponsible" with any other 'bad' activity, and you get the same answer: It will result in me being more aggressive to people in real life and less connected to others, etc. I can't help but think that you already knew that this exactly the answer you would get. Unless, of course, you expected 'us rude and irresponsible' young people to scoff at you and not answer.

Oh, and thank you Moe for adding the spoiler tags. Helped the reading quite a bit. :wave:

[ViiKumi]

this thread is probably not helping anyone... It seems that each one of us has an internet connection, so we could just go see that info, and second of all, you seem to think that wikipedia is this place of great wisdom, but that place isn't that great really, you should try to see the whole articles there, and you'll see how much they give info that is irrelevant to the thing you're searching.

You should look up words from a dictionary, not from wikipedia, atleast dictionaries would've given a better answer with less words...

So you want to discuss flaming and related concepts? Well, haven't you seen that the admins (usually) delete posts that have nothing to do with CoH (as they should), and this thread IMHO should've been one of those that have been deleted, since this gives no info about CoH, and no critical info of any other matter. Well, perhaps I too should create a new thread, about emoticons, and explaining what they are, when have they been invented, what do they represent, giving examples of different emoticons, etc. etc.. Now that wouldn't help anyone, would it?

Because:
A: It has nothing to do with CoH (That's why it shouldn't be on CoH forum)
B: It is irrelevant
C: Most of the people already know that, and the rest are not that interested

There are probably many more reasons, but I'll stick to those.

[Moe]

ViiKumi, I'm reasonably certain that most of the newer internet-related slang cannot be found in a regular dictionary.

[neonblack88]

This thread reminds me of a Something Awful article, or something.

[PanzerDestroyed]

Rocker,

In a world where the only things that are important are winning or "the bottom line", I can appreciate your concerns about "authenticity of character". It reminds me of my RL world, being brought up as a "Southern gentleman" trying to explain to some young punk on public transportation in a Northern state to give up his seat for a pregnant lady.

However I also dislike the Political Correctness flavor of your post in deciding whats "inappropriate" behaviour or trying to control others' thoughts, ideas, or expressions just because you find it offensive or w/e. There is no need for the "thought police" in RL or on the internet. There is also nothing you can really do about "authenticity of character" in "younger participants" on an internet forum, that is their parents job. It is always better to set an example rather than patronize to get a point across imo.

Actually the forum you might like is the Total War forum where the mods are absolutely ridiculous in their locking and PC'ness crap.

Regards and my philosophical 2 cents.

[TsaosChicken]

I think it's ironic how a post about flaming/trolling/ manners can generate such emotions. If that is what you were hoping for I think you got it.

Viikumi: Not trying to flame here but your attitude towards the OP is a lot like what he's referring to, at least in my eyes. Being hypercritical of his intentions isn't needed and if you had read the other posts on the topic you would see that that point had already been made, not as succinctly as yours, but just as effective if not moreso. Sometimes people need to step back and think about what they are typing and how someone else may perceive it. Just because this is an anonymous forum (for the most part) it seems people feel they can say and do what they like without reprisal. And while their thoughts may not seem like a flame to them, once others see them a whole different philosophy and thought evolve.

In General: I think that is where the problem is with the rudeness encountered on the forums. Maybe people aren't trying to flame as much as they don't understand how someone else will respond to their thoughts

[natrapsmai]

There are always going to be internet misfits online that seek to make your day (or in this case, your discussion) as dismal as their own outlook on life is, and no amount of rule making or moderator-ing can keep them from doing what they do best: bring everyone else down to their level.

Welcome to the internet.

This forum isn't bad at all compared to others, but you still have a few dickweeds that are out to ruin everyone else's fun - either that or they're genuinely disenfranchised with the world in general, and sometimes it's difficult to say is the most believable. In either case, there's nothing you can do about it, because on the internet, nobody knows you're a dog (http://www.lib.unb.ca/instruction/LILT/mod5/18-internet-dog.html).

[Stuka Pilot]

With the exception of a few good tactful ways of putting someone "in his/her place", so to speak, flaming is a short word for one who is butt-hurt and needs to relieve the possible hemorrage (sp?) in the brain. :eek:

[ViiKumi]

Viikumi: Not trying to flame here but your attitude towards the OP is a lot like what he's referring to, at least in my eyes. Being hypercritical of his intentions isn't needed and if you had read the other posts on the topic you would see that that point had already been made, not as succinctly as yours, but just as effective if not moreso. Sometimes people need to step back and think about what they are typing and how someone else may perceive it. Just because this is an anonymous forum (for the most part) it seems people feel they can say and do what they like without reprisal. And while their thoughts may not seem like a flame to them, once others see them a whole different philosophy and thought evolve.

Okay, so you're saying that I'm talking like thise because of the anonymity?
I'm always critical against almost everything. Also, you said that I should think before I write, and I should consider how other people take it.

Well, I always do, about 1/4 of the replies I'm writing ever get out, since after I've read them, I think what other people might think when reading that.

But yeah, that last post of mine was written, read, and re-read with consideration. In my opinion, that was not offensive towards anyone, and the post was relevant. Thanks for trying, but there's nothing you can do for me, I'm a lost cause.

[Rocker]

These concepts were created by adults, who were engaged in trying to communicate feelings and emotions in a public forum, so I do realize the issues is not exclusive to younger gamers. My sense in visiting forums over the years is that most who have issues are younger gamers who have not received correct parental supervision. Unfortunately, this is the world in which we live. So, since it came up in a thread I thought I should post here thinking if it helps one person, be they young or old, it was worth my time and bother.

I am sorry to see only one descent post who decided to participate in this thread as I had suggested. Remember others read this thread and do not post, so how about taking time to think about the content above and craft a reply, as opposed to making just another flash post. It may help someone even without you realizing it!

Please, if you are reading this thread and would not like to offer input on the subject at hand I'd appreciate it if you would just move along and find somewhere else to comment.

Ghostly, interesting take on the subject and I do appreciate your feedback and effort! Kudos

Side note: I didn't quote the entire article or definitions, but if someone finds a better one please post it here so we might compare which is better in terms of a gaming forum.

[Melissia]

I think that people, including myself to some extent or other, just get frustrated with the apparent stubbornness and lack intelligent thought/arguments in the forums.

I'm a bit vulnerable to lapsing into a flame routine myself, seeing as I'm highly opinionated and stubborn to a fault... though I do try and edit most flames out of my posts if only to keep the discussion civil and not get banned.

Half the time I don't mean it anyway, it's just a way of venting frustration over life and/or the way the other person/people are acting.

[edit: By the way, your attitude isn't helping things, rocker. you're basicly inviting people to either ignore you, or flame you.]

[Sle]

Welcome to the internet.

[Stuka Pilot]

You must understand, Rocker (given all your expertise on the subject), by dictating who shall post here with comments about "one decent post" and "move on/post elsewhere", your credibility goes down a notch. I didn't know that this is a phylosophy contest or I probably would've done what you couldn't help to suggest...

Being that as it may, you are no different than I am here... being a new poster that is. And that is dangerous i.e. flamerous?

Flaming... hmmm... the word itself is quite retarded like noob is. Don't know who made it up and don't care. It is what it is.

I'm with ViiKumi and PanzerDestroyed when I say, we are living in a cyberworld that will always be exploited and have an abundance of assholes. Fortunately, I have seen very little of that here. Been reading these posts for months before I decided to recently participate. Even the "flamers" are light at best. Let's not ripple the water, my friend.

[Rocker]

You must understand, Rocker (given all your expertise on the subject), by dictating who shall post here with comments about "one decent post" and "move on/post elsewhere", your credibility goes down a notch.

I am OK with that and I am no expert:science:

[Kapyrna]

Fortunately, I have seen very little of that here.From what I've seen in two years here, this is a nice place to be (relatively speaking). Flaming is cut off quickly here, much more so than elsewhere, and that's why people stay and we have members from way back in '99 still with us, as well as a continuing newer member base. The internet is what it is, and here we've tried to shape it into something a little less dolt-ish. It seems to an extent that this succeeding, however there will always be the small blip that pops up and then is quietly dealt with.

Melissia, if you don't mind, I'd like to use you as an example of how the system works. After a suspension (http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=169185) for doing essentially what's being discussed here, Melissia returned to the forums and is now, from what I see, a valuable contributing poster. All it really takes is a personal commitment to do things right instead of simply doing it.

[RavenKrows]

Sle hits the nail on the head with that old mantra.
It's a public forum, you should expect to receive flak at some point for stupid reasons. I'll be a bit of a jerk and say this thread really will not accomplish much, you will hardly change the way of thinking of anonymous people on the internet no matter how hard you try.
Rocker, I will also say this, do cut down on any condescending chatter to younger players; it only hurts you.

[HeinzBaby]

As said before this is the Internet...

Forums are where you can express what you feel but there will always be inflated egos in front of their monitors.

Hell, I'm 51 with two Teen Daughters, NOTHING surprises this old dog ;)

[Rocker]

Heia Safari, you are an old trooper and you remind me how inflated egos forget sometime that they are interacting with other humans who do have feelings, that the Forum is a written place and so much of communication is lost due to this fact. I mean, most of our communication is verbal and non-verbal the written word is so subjective, missing the cannotations and the inferences we use face to face or via voice.

When I administered an extremely large closed community of adults seven years ago most of the problems we faced in terms of conduct were on the BBS and e-mails; the servers were pretty much problem free. I also noted that with the introduction of voice communications even what little conflict we had on the servers cleared up because members could clarify their meaning better. I feel strongly that when I post it should be as if the person I am posting to is present in my own house. Yes, there are fools we meet and interact with every day in our personal lives, but the anonymity factor seems to bring the worse out of people who otherwise are quite civil. I think, in part, because that monitor does not have much of a personality. Yet, I frequently I wish some would see their reflection in that monitor and to think before they post, especially when agitated, to go take a walk around the block before replying.

There is also a social etiquette that creates a certain group personality on each forum I visit. For example, we can expect short and no so well thought out posts without spell check or punctuation on a gaming forum whereas on a forum that deals with writing or technical jargon the posts are longer and a greater focus on composition comes to bear. The better threads I read in this forum are started by someone who takes time to gather thoughts knowing the literal nature of the Forum as a communications medium. The better posters stay on topic and do not side talk, which can be perceived as rude.

Additionally, the person who starts the thread should offer guidance as to how the thread progresses, to keep the visitors on topic. At least, that is what I try to do when I post a thread, which has worked well for me over the years. Now I can see here that this is not the norm, consequently, the concern in regard to me expressing guidelines. Never the less, good habits die hard and I do the best I can. I am sure some reader out there sees the word 'should' and thinks I might be telling them what to do, but such is not the case. Besides, I have no power here to delete posts so all I can do is ask politely for adherence to my suggestions as the thread author.

[Sle]

I hate to be blunt, but is there a specific point to all this? I'm reading and reading, but I can't really glean much apart from your desire to point out your experience and your dismay at people who disagree with you.

[Rocker]

I understand, Sle. Thanks for your input, but I'm not sure where you get the notion that posts above disagree with me. Is it the definitions ? How about writing something about the topic? I am interested in understanding your take on trolling, flaming and the anonymity aspect related to the Internet?

[Moe]

I'm with Sle on this one. What are you trying to discuss here? More importantly, what are you trying to achieve?

The internet offers anonymity. This, coupled with the fact that there are pretty much no repercussions for your actions, results in a lot of people old and young alike acting like complete morons. This is a reality of the 'net.

We try to keep the idiocy to a minimum here, we lock, delete, warn and ban for offensive posts and attempt to keep threads on topic. We've been doing it for eight years now and overall it appears to work fairly well. However locking a thread or even banning a problematic user usually isn't going to change their attitude, in the majority of cases they're just going to find another forum to troll. Your thread seems really redundant, those who you're complaining about are unlikely to even read it, much less take it to heart (although I'm still not sure what they would take to heart as I still fail to see your point in all of this).

Your attitude however is beginning to grate. You create a long post by quoting heaps of text from wikipedia and then complain about people's posts when they try to figure out what it is you want to discuss with them. You continuously berate "younger" gamers and dismiss every post as useless unless the poster happens to agree with you. "I am sorry to see only one descent post who decided to participate in this thread as I had suggested." Not every post disagreeing with you is a bad post. You complain about people's lack of spelling and grammar which is ironic considering that there are already two mistakes in that one sentence I just quoted.

Your post is pretty much stating the obvious with little or no incentive for discussion. Had someone created a thread called "the sky is blue" and then quoted wikipedia articles to provide definitions for sky and blue I imagine reactions would be somewhat similar. So I ask again, what is your point in all of this?

[Soulblighter]

moving thread since it has nothing to do with coh...

[neonblack88]

I think you would feel right at home at the Genius Forum:

http://theabsolute.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3560

[Mirehn_Bielann]

Your post is pretty much stating the obvious with little or no incentive for discussion.

That's because I think he's kind of baiting people along. I hate to say it, but what I see here is a very smart troll. He creates a thread about how horribly flaming is, then when people disagree with him, he very subtlety flames them back.

Either that, or he is totally missing the irony in his posts.

[Zir]

I always thought flaming was a pretty subjective term, since it was made up by nebulous communities of 1337 speakers. What it should be, I think, is personal abuse. Too many people take heated debate as flaming, which is just naive, but if you're on a forum that doesn't want heated debate then you're going to have to respect that.

To me, this is debate: "You're clearly wrong and don't know what you're talking about"

and this is flaming: "Go away, nobody likes you and your taste in music sucks".

[Kushan's_Wrath]

I think that debate would be: "You're clearly wrong and here is why."

[Zir]

No but I made it overly agressive to make a point. People can get frustrated with each other in a debate, or someone could be catastrophically wrong. People just don't say "You've clearly wrong and here is why.", it's rarely that polite. You can disagree with someone or dislike their opinion without personally attacking them.

[Paladin]

Yes, but if you don't expound on why they are wrong, it ceases to be a debate and becomes a name-calling session. That's easy enough to see as one clear demarcation for the beginning of flame-country.

You can debate aggressively, but if you're not bringing reason to bear, you're not debating at all.

[Rocker]

AOK admin... this thread has beeen a public service message from Rocker!

[Zir]

Yes, but if you don't expound on why they are wrong, it ceases to be a debate and becomes a name-calling session. That's easy enough to see as one clear demarcation for the beginning of flame-country.

You can debate aggressively, but if you're not bringing reason to bear, you're not debating at all.

It goes without saying there would be more to that statement than just "You're wrong.". I was expecting people to fill the gaps themselves.

[Shoota Fodder]

I still don't see the point in this though. Yes their is a small amount of flaming in this forum. What about it? It's imppossible to completely eleminate, especially on a forum dedicated to games, and one with tens of thousands of members at that. For one, this is the first forum i have been a part of, and i am pretty young but to be honest, i fail to see any full blown flamings. I also disagree with the idea that going off topic is 'bad'. In some cases, as long as it is still connected to the threads point, going off topic can be benificial and a little bit of banter is good to keep the community together. If you ask a question and a group of robots respond with the answer, then its not very fun. But if you ask a question and a few people answer and then you fall into a discussion about how the said information is used (for example a rule in 40k TT), then you can get some usefull ideas that you can implement (tactics ect..) rather than asking a whole new question.

Also, if you feel you are part of a Community that interacts with each other, then you feel more welcome and will in general enjoy your stay more.

I also disagree with young gamers being troublemakers. I'm a young gamer and unless i missed something incredibly obvious, i fail to see how i am in any way a trouble maker that needs to be tought a lesson. Trolls fall into any age group, creed, race, or sex.

[Rocker]

It amazes me how people ASSume that everyone that visits a forum understands these concept, and how so many think they do simply because of a short duration in posting without receiving correction. I hope someone that read this thread actually learned something even if they didn't post, or question how they might be perceived.

You folks may not realize it , but this Forum is fraught with abuse- simply because most seem to think if you don't curse of call someone a name, well then, it is not trolling, flaming or hiding behind anonymity. There are other aspects to belonging to a community, which take these concepts a bit higher.

Hugs,

General Rocker

:alarm: :bleh: :rofl: :dj:

/ I see Capa is a thinker... good gamer!

[roflmao]

Flaming is the action you thoroughly described in the first post.
Is it good or bad?
Bad.

What else is left?

@Rocker:
Yes, this forum is ridden with flaming, abuse, insulting, and all types of stuff. But it just happens to be the most civilized forum out in the net.

[Shoota Fodder]

simply because most seem to think if you don't curse of call someone a name, well then, it is not trolling, flaming or hiding behind anonymity.

Can you please give an example? I still fail to see anyone troll a thread on porpose and not curse or swear or abuse someone else. Yes you can derail a thread by not doing these things, and i have done it myself multiple times, by accident. Not all posters are perfect english speakers nor may they be calm and controlled, and all it takes is one person to misunderstand another persons post to cause a lockage. I would not call this flaming.

You folks may not realize it , but this Forum is fraught with abuse- simply because most seem to think if you don't curse of call someone a name, well then, it is not trolling, flaming or hiding behind anonymity.

No i did not realise it. I consider these forums incredibly well maintained and apart from a few occasional ocourances, i have not seen any massive amounts of Flaming. As i said, please offer up a few examples to back up your point.

[Vakarian]

I consider these forums incredibly well maintained and apart from a few occasional ocourances, i have not seen any massive amounts of Flaming.

I agree, this is easily one of the places to frequent if you want intelligent debate.

Flaming is not the problem here as say people being Cynical, which i will admit seems to be everyone on this forum.

Which is not to say i mind (Because maybe i have that impression wrongly) but if you have an Argument with someone rarely will they tell you that you are wrong and Explain why, from what i have seen people will generally rip you to pieces if you get something wrong even in Ignorance.

I think people need to remember that not everyone is on the Same intellectual Level, that's not to defend Trolls Of course but what some see as trolling may be fine with others, also people engage in different ways, some are aggressive, some passive.

[Soulblighter]

You folks may not realize it , but this Forum is fraught with abuse- simply because most seem to think if you don't curse of call someone a name, well then, it is not trolling, flaming or hiding behind anonymity.

If you see all of this (and it actually better be truly abuse) then report it. Bitching about it then doing nothing serves no purpose and does not improve anything.

[Mirehn_Bielann]

You folks may not realize it , but this Forum is fraught with abuse

Now I'm just slightly miffed. No offense, but your join date is December 2007. Stick around here a little longer before making such a statement. I think you'll find the sense of this forum a lot different than other forums. The mods keep a good lid on the dumb morons on this forum, and many of these said dumb morons have been weeded out so far out of the other subforums. It could be what you're experiencing is just a phenomena of the CoH forums, much like we experienced back in the day when the DoW forums were first opened. They eventually change or they'll suspended/banned.

[Nurizeko]

Your post is pretty much stating the obvious with little or no incentive for discussion. Had someone created a thread called "the sky is blue" and then quoted wikipedia articles to provide definitions for sky and blue I imagine reactions would be somewhat similar. So I ask again, what is your point in all of this?

To be fair, at least a discussion on the pigmentation of the atmosphere would be a slightly interesting from a scientific standpoint, at least for those new to learning and understanding of the scientific underpinnings of the universe and how they effect upon us.


That's because I think he's kind of baiting people along. I hate to say it, but what I see here is a very smart troll. He creates a thread about how horribly flaming is, then when people disagree with him, he very subtlety flames them back.

Either that, or he is totally missing the irony in his posts.

I entertained those thoughts to, but I probably want to go with the latter.




On topic, if I can find it, um....I guess trolling and flaming is an issue, and you were discussing the negative consequences of anonymity and why this is cause for internet users to to be so anonymous?.

While the impracticality and illegal consequences of that go without saying, I find that with anonymity also comes a degree of freedom.

Yes, many individuals cannot control their behaviour, but thats like banning something because some folk can't control themselves.

The internet, anonymity if you chose to use it, and all, offers more freedom and confidence to state your position.

I find it much easier to get my points and position across in a discussion on a forum then perhaps in real life exactly because I have the security and time to make myself as clear as possible, without fear of how the opponent or opposite will react physically or otherwise.

The biggest consequence usually in an anonymous internet discussion is that you have to answer a rebuttal or invalidate a point.

I think that the best we can hope for, short of global behavioral alteration, is for strong and firm policing of internet communities.

And since the RelicNews community is about as fairly yet strongly policed as it can get, there isn't much issue of that here.

Most new users who stick around who have trouble with the rules at first can learn to adapt. Like many my early days here were hard, I often got warned and occasionally still do.

You can't put your faith in human nature to ensure the peace, so just nip negative behaviour in the bud as it arises.

You folks may not realize it , but this Forum is fraught with abuse- simply because most seem to think if you don't curse of call someone a name, well then, it is not trolling, flaming or hiding behind anonymity.

Theres a difference between "polite" internet discourse and what you are probably thinking as, which is generally referred to as appeasement.

If your point is that not everyone on the internet is going to agree, even in a well run well contributed to forum, then, thank you, we already knew, but thanks. I dread the day everyone everywhere gets along.

As for hiding behind anonymity, as I stated, it is not the problem, and nor is it practically avoidable.

[LoCo]

Perhaps, as Mirehn said, this is more a problem in the CoH subforums. Since this is now in the more ... intersting ... area of the forums, I suspect the OP is going to get a lot of replies stating that the forums are well run.

Rocker: You have a few things standing against you though all this. The first, is your join date. Sorry to say it, but people notice things like that. Respect is something that is earned. Read below for why we can't just give it to you because you claim to be older.

Second: We notice that you have not been here a full month. That makes you the young. Anything you say about how you have seen the "young" gamers behave is silly, and then you add to that the tidbit that you are old. Yet you somehow manage to leave out that little thing you mentioned yourself. You know, that little thing that makes your statements about old and young so silly. Anonymity. We don't know how old you are. You could be eleven years old for all we know, and likewise, those you call "young" could very well be older than you.

Age doesn't really have much to do with maturity, particularly on the internet. Please, keep the comments about the "young gamers" down. They only serve to make you look silly.

The third thing you have against you, is many of the people arguing against you are as old as you, and still more are older. On this forum, you are not unique if you are older than 23yrs. You're in with a whole lot of people about 30yrs. And there are a lot who are in their 50s and up. So if you are, as you claim, old, you need to remember that others here are too.

The fourth thing is that you are talking down to people. Stop it. You think you have this unique view of things? You think you know these forums? You think you know what the people who post here are like? You are wrong on all counts.

Many people here look at the names of people who post. They see the names, and with those names they recall a bit of the posting habits of those people. Reputations are things you build, like respect. The other thing people look at when reading posts is the tags under the names. Many here feel that Senior Member or some personalised line makes that poster better. Yet another thing people look at is the sub-forum the thread is in. If I go post in the CoH sub-forums like I know what I'm talking about I'll get laughed at. The same if I go posting in the DoW forums. But if I go post something in the Studio, people listen to me. (At least, I like to pretend they do.)

WHy is all this important? Simply put, you have just alienated a whole bunch of the forum that didn't even know you exsisted. When DoW first came out, there was in influx of idiots and morons who somehow figured that the DoW section of the forums was the main part of the forums. The same happens with the CoH section. It's only months later that some of those people (The ones that managed to last long enough) find out that those are simply sub-forums to what the rest of us consider the main forums.

I'm not here for CoH. I've never played the game. I'm not here for DoW. Only seen that played once. I didn't come here for Impossible Creatures (Yes, there is even a sub-forum for that.) nor did I come here for Homeworld. I'm here for the General Discussion - but mostly I'm here for the Studio. I, and many, many others like me, come here because these forums are well cared for and maintained. Compaired to the rest of the internet, this place is maturity incarnate.

I can't speek for the CoH sub-forums, but there is nothing wrong with the way the mods do things here, and I don't see very many flames a month, spam is taken care of quickly, trolls are shot on sight and people speak with respect to those who have earned it.

Granted, if you look at my record, you will not find it clean. I'm not a Senior Member, and there is a reason for that (At least ... I assume there is). In the studio I often make snide remarks and bored-line-flame people. When I step over that line I get jumped on by the mods. I do that there, because there I critique people and their work, which means it's easier for me if I'm mean about it. But when I come to the GD, I behave differently because it's called for.

I find that a lot of "older" people who get upset about the "younger" people are often only upset because they feel they aren't getting the respect they think they deserve. What they don't seem to understand is that when new people, "young" people arrive, they have to earn that respect in the eyes of those new/young people before they get it.

PS: If I read you correctly, this whole post could be taken by you to be a flame. It's not. If I wanted to flame you, I would have done a much better job, believe me when I tell you I am able to do a better job. This is just a post to try to get you to treat others with more respect no matter their age. Wisdom does not come with age, wisdom comes with learning from mistakes and mistakes come with age.

EDIT: See? I can make long posts too. Last question before I finish up ... Did you read the forum guidelines before you made this thread? It seems to me you could have avoided a lot by simply having the opening post be a link to the guidelines and then asked your questions like you did at the end.

[Dumas1]

I think that it's pretty inevitable for internet discussion to turn into insult-throwing and flaming.

It is easier to call someone a traitor, faggot, idiot, or jackass than it is to build a rational and coherent counter-post. The former takes only a moment of pique and a few taps on a keyboard. The latter takes thought and sometimes gathering of evidence.

Subjects discussed on forums can be highly polarizing: religion and politics, sub vs dub among anime fans,the respective merit of teams on sports forums, the quality of someone's work among writers and artists. The last can get particularly bad if the artist in question has much of a following. The creation of art is a highly personal process (or is taken personally, anyway) and any criticism is easily taken as an attack on the artist. For that matter, discussion of how to write can get pretty acrimonious or generate a fair amount of ill-will.

Finally, and this is especially apparent on more specialized forums, members tend to feel strongly about the topic at hand, more so than the population at large. Sub vs dub (or, even worse, the font used on a dub) is not a topic most people would discuss at any great length, even casual anime fans. However, it soon generates charges of elitism or 'impurity' among diehard fans.

Add anonymity or a fair semblance thereof and it becomes very easy to depart from the rules of 'civil' discussion, especially when the discussion is moving quickly. I expect posters to either defend their points or concede them openly. I get very irritated by people who evade counterpoints, fail to answer questions, 'concede' in a way that is no different from their original position, and generally adopt an attitude of 'I'm always right.' This sort of irritation can easily lead back to my first point.

There are words to describe a group of people who all agree with each other. 'Echo chamber' is probably the kindest that comes to mind.

[Dyntheos]

In a thread I recently posted the topic of flaming has come up, so since I did not want the thread to go off topic I created this thread with a pointer to it.

I think part of the communications problem might be that many here do not understand what is meant by flaming in the context of Forums communications. Mind you, this forum is pretty well administered, but because so many Internet Forums are not it becomes impossible to communicate clearly or maintain a thread without it turning into name calling or going off topic by means of trolling. I see some of that here, and young gamers may not understand the ideas, It is important that you understand it so you might choose not to do it because we all want to be responsible to communicate clearly as we can here, since Forums or BBSs are quite literal, right?

Here is the Wikipedia definition, which might help.




Flaming is the hostile and insulting interaction between Internet users. Flaming usually occurs in the social context of a discussion board, Internet Relay Chat (IRC) or even through e-mail. An Internet user typically generates a flame response to other posts or users posting on a site, and is usually not constructive, does not clarify a discussion, and does not persuade others. Sometimes, flamers attempt to assert their authority, or establish a position of superiority over other users. Other times, a flamer is simply an individual who believes he or she carries the only valid opinion. This leads him or her to personally attack those who disagree. Occasionally, flamers wish to upset and offend other members of the forum, in which case they can be called "trolls". Most often however, flames are angry or insulting messages transmitted by people who have strong feelings about a subject.

Some equate flaming with simply letting off steam, though the receiving party may be less than pleased. Similarly, a normal, non-flame message may have elements of a flame -- it may be hostile, for example -- but it is not a flame if its author seriously intends to advance the discussion. The word flaming is also sometimes used for long, intensive and heated discussions, even though insults do not occur.

Although the trading of insults is as old as human speech, flaming on the Internet, like many other online 'actions,' started in the Usenet hierarchies (although it was known to occur in the WWIVnet and FidoNet computer networks as well).

The term "flaming" is believed to be a reference to the Marvel Comic superhero the Human Torch of the Fantastic Four. After the accident which gave Johnny Storm the ability to become a human torch, he was initially unable to control when he would burst into flames. He learned to control his powers by saying "Flame on" which would initiate the transformation into a human torch and he would return to his normal state by saying "Flame off." Since early users of the asynchronous text communication wanted to distinguish their angry/insulting/sarcastic portions of their response from their serious statements, they would prefix their angry/insulting/sarcastic text with "Flame on" and indicate the end of such statements with "Flame off".



I hope that helps. I wish admins would use this definition to corral users into interacting as responsible adults. Look, even if you are a young person you can think about how you might be perceived and understand when you post inappropriately. The reality is the Internet is a troubled place for communications because of the anonymity aspect. Let me define what I mean by anonymity .



Here is the Wikipedia definition, which might help.




Anonymity and social situations

Anonymity may reduce the accountability one perceives to have for their actions, and removes the impact these actions might otherwise have on their reputation. This can have dramatic effects, both useful and harmful.

In conversational settings, anonymity may allow people to reveal personal history and feelings without fear of later embarrassment. Electronic conversational media can provide physical isolation, in addition to anonymity. This prevents physical retaliation for remarks, and prevents negative or taboo behavior or discussion from tarnishing the reputation of the speaker. This can be beneficial when discussing very private matters, or taboo subjects or expressing views or revealing facts which may put someone in physical, financial, or legal danger (such as illegal activity, or unpopular or outlawed political views).

With few perceived negative consequences, anonymous or semi-anonymous forums often provide a soapbox for disruptive conversational behavior. Some people[attribution needed] label those who do this online as Internet trolls.

Relative anonymity is often enjoyed in large crowds. Different people have different psychological and philosophical reactions to this development, especially as a modern phenomenon. This anonymity is an important factor in crowd psychology.



----

Finally, here is the definition of trolling. Mind you, there are fine lines in using these definitions- they are only useful when it applies to the Forum rules and administration of the Forum you participate in.

Here is the Wikipedia definition, which might help.




An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial messages in an on-line community such as an on-line discussion forum with the intention of baiting other users into responding emotionally. The rise of the expression "concern troll" reflects an expanded definition of troll as someone whose posts have the primary goal of disrupting or de-railing an internet community. "Troll" is also used in a broader pejorative sense to question the good faith of any Internet user who has annoyed the person using the term.

Trolling in the 1990s
The most likely derivation of the word troll can be found in the phrase "trolling for newbies," popularized in the early 1990s in the Usenet group, alt.folklore.urban. Commonly, what is meant is a relatively gentle inside joke by veteran users, presenting questions or topics that had been so overdone that only a new user would respond to them earnestly. For example, a veteran of the group might make a post on the common misconception that glass flows over time. Long-time readers would both recognize the poster's name and know that the topic had been done to death already, but new subscribers to the group would not "get it" and respond. These types of trolls served as a Shibboleth to identify group insiders. This definition of trolling, considerably narrower than the modern understanding of the term, was considered a positive contribution. One of the most notorious AFU trollers, Snopes,went on to create his eponymous urban folklore website.

By the late 1990s, alt.folklore.urban had such heavy traffic and participation that trolling of this sort was frowned upon. Others expanded the term to include the practice of playing a seriously misinformed or deluded user, even in newsgroups where one was not a regular; these were often attempts at humor rather than provocation. In such contexts, the noun troll usually referred to an act of trolling, rather than to the author.

Recently, the word troll is also frequently used as a synonym for flamebait, even though the two words have distinct meanings.


´

There you have it. I understand that this is not related to the game and might not be the correct place for such a conversation, but I felt it was important since it came up in my thread. Anonymity, flaming and trolling are terms that go hand in hand when it comes to the Internet gaming forums, and I thought this discussion might be useful especially to the younger participants. If the admin deems to let this conversation take place here, please post your comments. Let me start by asking you how flaming and trolling are affected by anonymity ? How do these behaviors affect authenticity in your own character? If you get into the habit of flaming and acting irresponsible to other community members how might it seep into other aspects of your life?


tldr

[Nurizeko]

Dyn, you made my afternoon. :bunny:

[tyrion]

Simply put we already know what flaming is, we have a well established set of protocols around people's behaviour on the site. However there is an interesting set of questions which can arise from the issue, particularly who flames and why.

I'd put it down to a lack of consequences and seperation from real life. If I spend the rest of today flaming this forum I'll probably get banned, but I'll still have my job, health, home and child tomorrow. People on here will briefly remember my nickname until it quickly blends into the background of lost members and gets forgotten. I'll probably never meet those people irl and even if I do the odds are we wouldn't realise anway.

In other words nothing that happens in here particularly impinges on our outside lives and thus people tend to feel free to behave in ways that would carry meaningful social consequences in day to day life.

What would be interesting would be any sort of demographics on people who behave in this way to see what actually drives the behaviour. Whether any such data could realistically be gathered I don't know, I suspect lab studies on anonymity would be more meaningful than relying on given personal information.

[Shoota Fodder]

Dyn wins the thread.

[Paladin]

I dunno if it's even anything to do with Internet anonymity. I know plenty of RL flamers and trolls.

[Harmanoff]

Indeed. Allthough i'm pretty sure anonymity can draw the flamer out of the generally polite person on occasion it prolly has more to do with your general disposition. I for one hardly ever raise my voice against people in real life but i have found myself doing it in #homeworld and rarely in the forums just for the heck of it. Interestingly i almost always regret it and feel like i lost my head and shouldn't have. It's actually worse online.. you can backtrack your conversation and evaluate it when you are in a better mood and then, to me at least, it often seems i would've done a whole lot better if i kept my head cool. :murph:

[Lomax]

Funny thing...I was pondering trying to write something about how the internet really helps to separate people, among other things by giving them an illusionary way of dealing with discontent that does not need an effect or even a meaningful relationship of two entities (thus networking the discontents and possibly forming a political power). And now I see a thread about flaming here. I'll be sure to read it tomorrow and post my thoughts.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

indeed harmanoff, you should follow my policy of rampant and unethical post editing moderate tone and cyborg insensitivity to insults.

edited by TheDeadlyShoe

[Lrkr]

this crap isn't locked yet ?


I mean he called you guys asses an entire page ago....

It amazes me how people ASSume that everyone that visits a forum

[ceejayoz]

I decided to discuss the related concept of getting banned for trolling.