DoW2 Reinforce at base?

[troglodytejb]

So it's too early for speculation about this, obviously, but I am curious how people feel about this mechanic. I VASTLY prefer reinforce at base to reinforce anywhere; it's one of the major reasons I switched to CoH.

Since it sounds like they're taking some of the stronger features from CoH, this may be on the table, and it's definitely a game-changing mechanic. What are your thoughts? Do people prefer DoW2 to mimic DoW1 in terms of reinforcement, or to evolve as CoH did?

Nothing serious, just curious about what I see as a crucial opportunity for change.

[CoatedTrout]

Yes, And I've thought alot about this.

I was thinking that medic stations (or equivalent), after healing injured troops (either by stitching up or replacing with bionics if there is not enough left) are sent back to the HQ and wait by the side of the HQ, so the next reinforce will be free.

Otherwise, reinforcement should be as COH, but maybe some animation for a new recruit being armed or something.

[Viper114]

Agreed, although maybe a few units could be exempt from this, like Terminators getting new units anywhere through teleporting. Or, have a Troop Transport act as a mobile reinforcement point like the Halftracks in CoH.

[Spinefarm]

Has anyone modded the combat reinforce rate to 0? Been thinking about it for a while.

[Versian]

I know Space Marines normally deploy in Drop Pods. But that only happens when the Marines are deployed directly from the space ship in orbit, what if the marines are already down in planet? I imagine the animation of Space Marines exiting a Thunderhawk Transport ship would BE AWESOME, if that is a mean of quick transportation.

[Eisenhorn538]

Reinforce at base is definitely the way to go in my opinion. I would like it to be expanded though to defensive structures though just like the Wehrmacht defensive doctrine, except everyone gets it for free. Reinforce from troop carriers like Rhinos and Chimeras has to be in as well, just like half-tracks in CoH.

[-Str!ker-]

I imagine the animation of Space Marines exiting a Thunderhawk Transport ship would BE AWESOME, if that is a mean of quick transportation.

Seeing any kind of infantry running out of a transport guns blazing would be awesome. I would really like this mechanic, it would give more meaning to actions like flanking and cutting off the enemy from their base.

[troglodytejb]

Yeah, I didn't mean to imply that I preferred ONLY base reinforce; obviously the story and setting of 40k provides an excellent way to explain instant reinforce in some circumstances. One problem I had with reinforce anywhere was the Necrons-- who cares if they revive if you can just reinforce? Sure, it's cheaper... but it really takes away from the "feel" of the race and their governing ability.

Some races, like SM, make a lot of sense for reinforce anywhere, and I'm not sure how that would be controlled. Others, like the Necrons and Orks, make no sense at all. The Necrons are emerging from caves, and the Orks are spawning. How do the Orks get weapons without coming from the base?

It would also make transports more useful; I was never any good at DoW online, but I never had much use for most of the transports.

One problem I see is the issue of retreat: it's awesome in CoH, but really, can you see SM Tacs sprinting back to base? Even better, Necron warriors running full tilt back to the Monolith. It doesn't fit with the story of most of these races, but it's key to the base reinforce mechanic. Further thought is required...

[the_voice]

Yes please, reinforcement at base. I always wondered "man, where this guy come from?" when i add a squad member, and this new guy (or female) is popping out from nowhere :rolleyes: .

This would add another dimension to the game a la Company of Heroes. But it should be even better than that: you should be able to merge squad (especially for Orks or nids if any).

And, I don't know if it is in the fluff but, it would be nicer to have an animation when Apothecaries/Mad Doks are healing other squad members.

Peace

[Ifitmovesnukeit]

If they're going to have that mechanic in DoW2, they better also include a more costly "drop pod/teleport/come out of ground/whatever" mechanic for reinforcing in the field. I didn't particularly enjoy in the latter missions of CoH having to retreat my army in order to add one member to replace the one that just got sniped (anyone wanting the "reinforce at base" mechanic for realism purposes who is about to suggest halftracks to me, kindly look up the word "inconsistency" in the dictionary, kthx. ;)).

[Makenshi]

People, be carefull in what you ask for... Necrons in DCPro only reinforce near the monolith and I'll tell: as much as in-combat reinforcement is a bit strange concept thx to units coming from nowhere, it's nowhere near fun to be forced into retreat every time 1 or 2 units fall.

If it ain't broken, don't fix it - just add animations to give it more sense, like pods dropping (SM), warp breaches opening into the air (Chaos), etc...

[FrostPaw]

Not a fan of reinforce at base....however I would like to see reinforce during combat removed...just grey the button out during a fight and light it up again once you run away or shoot em deader. If you need reinforcements during a fight you should litterly bring in existing reinforcements not respawning squad members.

I always found the CoH population cap & reinforce at base to be a hinderence, half strength units in the field where either a waste of resource or you couldn't get rid of them without suiciding or killing them with friendly fire.

Usualy I would end up with a squad of 3 soldiers having built something else with the other 3 pop cap and then when those soldiers died I didnt have the cap to replace as a full squad...so annoying.

[ghodan]

Reinforce at base is the way to go.

[TimW]

- A squad leader (one or several?) will need to survive if you want to complete a mission; you really have to look out for your squads and don't treat them like cannon fodder.

This would suggest, to me, that the ability to reinforce is either much more limited than in Dawn of War or non-existant, at least during the campaign.

[ARMYguy]

I think the best option would be a good standpoint between reinforcing anywhere and at a base. Clearly as people said some races would make more sense one way than others, so why not just have it both ways and figuer out how to balance it? It could be done... perhaps.

[Verruna]

Personally i hope it stays true to what DoW was, i disliked the majority of CoHs features, couldn't even stand the demo. Hoping they don't do DoW2 in CoH form. Some features might be okay though.. i'm not sure reinforcing at base would be a good or bad idea.. but leaning toward it being a bad one.. just doesn't sound like it'd fit.

But really.. don't add reinforce at base JUST because it makes no sense in a reality perspective. If you create a game just on this logic it most likely wouldn't be a fun one.

[Versian]

can you see SM Tacs sprinting back to base? Even better, Necron warriors running full tilt back to the Monolith.

Well, to go with fluff, SM units should have uber high morale, maybe to the point that to destroy their morale you need to focus exclusively on morale weapons, or just forget about trying to get SMs to run away.

I did play the Tabletop-RoundUp mod, and units ran to the nearest strategic point, not the base. I think we should go with that Idea.

[Vakarian]

I did play the Tabletop-RoundUp mod, and units ran to the nearest strategic point, not the base. I think we should go with that Idea.

I like that idea best imo, it would give another tactical reason for holding SPs

[troglodytejb]

I think my biggest concern is combat reinforcing... It took so much tactical play out of DoW when the most important thing in a fight was just to keep. spamming. that. plus sign.

I'd prefer at-base reinforcement, because I think that it adds tactical aspects to the game. That said, I'd be ok with pretty much any solution they come up with, as long as combat reinforcing is out.

Then again, I'm not a hardcore/dedicated DoW player, mostly because I like the CoH mechanics better... so if the hardcore fanbase is in favor of leaving it EXACTLY like DoW, I'd imagine that's where they'll lean.

[Croaxleigh]

I would hate reinforcing at bases/buildings/etc. only. If it were a confirmed feature of DoW2, then I'd think long and hard before buying DoW2 (determining whether the things that I liked about it outweighed the things that I don't.)

[Weavern]

Oh please, reinforcing at bases isnt nearly as bad as it sounds. Its a very good feature of CoH and means even if you have the resources you cant out number your opponent without taking a hit from map control due to reinforcing. It turns battles in to who reinforces faster rather then other traditional strategic events.

[Deacon412]

so it reinforce at base makes it more strategic weavern?

[Dark_Avenger]

yeah, If you want a battle to be won over who has more money to blow on reinforcing units then keep it the way it is

But I prefer reinforcing at HQ, makes more sense, and it allows to to possible win some battles you might normally not be able to

[stopgap]

i like reinforce at base or other limited locations because it allows you to slow down the speed of a game, if only a little, discouraging the overly rush oriented strategies and leading to thought and increased strategic and tactical play.

[Z3r0Fear]

I like the idea of reinforcing at the base but what concerns me would be the races that match up against each other. Lets say its imperial guard vs. chaos space marines since CSM are far stronger and also have heavy bolters I would imagine the devastation the IG would be going through. What do you think would solve this kind of match up issue? Do you think they would be increasing the number of units in the IG squads or would they toughen up the IG units? What do you all think?

[ImmortalChaos]

I dont really like the idea- Why the hell ever reinforce when you have to do it at your base? You may as well just buy a new squad.

[Dark_Avenger]

well with CoH mechanics squads cost much less to reinforce than to produce.

and on the other hand, with only 6 troop choices Ide say it would be better to have full squads.

[TheLoneKnight]

I certainly wouldn't complain if it was set to "reinforce at base", particularily if you can create forward bases like you could in CoH, or use Rhinos like Halftracks to reinforce your soldiers in the field. It reduces the silliness of spontaneous teleportation, makes transports/retreating far more viable and gives players forward bases they can smash. What's not to love?

Edit: Actually, you could even have slightly different mechanics depending on the race.

Orks might be able to reinforce from anywhere, for example, but would reinforce faster in orkish teritory (to represent the abundant spores).

Chaos would have normal (that is, base/in field stuff like Space Marines) reinforcement methods but daemons could reinforce anywhere, using anyone with an icon of Chaos as their own weird sort of halftrack.

Eldar could use webways rather than hold structures, scattering them across the map (perhaps cloaked) and darting around in true annoyingly-uber-raider fashion.

Necrons, of course, would reinforce solely through the Monolith and could use Tomb Spyders to repair their dead, making their "We'll be back!" mechanic vital to their success early on.

And if bases/buildings are largely removed/minimalised in DoW, factions like SM/Tau could have their mobility accentuated by dropping vehicles in the field as opposed to building them back at base. Eldar would summon via webways, orks would build at base (or steal enemy vehicles and make 'em orky), Chaos would either corrupt existing vehicles or have them dropped at their base to increase the differences between them and their more mobility-focused brothers and Necrons... well, they've only really got one vehicle, don't they? ;)

Not sure about the other factions just yet though.

[TimW]

I dont really like the idea- Why the hell ever reinforce when you have to do it at your base? You may as well just buy a new squad

You can only have six squads, however.

[zakublazer]

Maybe strategic points instead of just at the base.
or you could buy reinforcement points at strategic point and then plug your squad into the point to let them recharge.
but this make defensive warfare much easiers and i though dawn of war is not about defensive battles.

and e they better make reinforcing cheaper or free.

Also on large compaign map going back to the base all the time is ANNOYING but at strategic points they are better, they might even make reinforcement point for you to capture,.

[Dragnarr]

I would hate if reinforcing was limited to bases only.

However I feel that reinforcing near base/troop transport such as rhino could make reinforcing faster or cheaper. I feel the running back and forth in CoH was a bit too much, and like said, Space Marine running back to base? I'd rather take the old "senseless" reinforcing method than see that happening.

I was thinking of in-combat reinforcing and got mixed feelings. At first I wanted there to be no reinforcing during combat. Then again, if you had to move your units away from frontline if you wanted to reinforce it would be similar to morale. Not to mention you'd have to move your every squad back and forth when their unit count dropped too low. I would hope micro skills would be used for something more than with another type of "dancing" which would happen then.

[Frigidair44]

As long as its done well... I could go either way. But somebody had a good point...

the person with the most resources wins when you can reinforce where ever.

Its true. But at the same time... think of the difficulty of taking out an Ork base if you have to reinforce at your home base.

Not fun!

[Silent]

Do you guys realize that when you press that Plus sign, it DOESN'T transport a guy onto the battlefront right now? It takes time, lots of time. Could that time easily be meant to mean finding the recruit, giving the recruit the gun they need, and then sending that guy in via teleporation/road to the division? Make sense to me.

It's much more effienct to send in the reinforcements you need rather than run back to HQ to get them. I mean, hack, if you want realism, why not only have a limited amount of humans at HQ? Run out humans, oops, you lose the game. It would add a lot of dynamic to the game, lots of micro, and the use of 'attrition' to stave off defeat. Would it be fun? Nope.

Plus, the fluff would deveaste the IG, if the Commissar keeps its 'unit immune from moral damage' buff:
"Guardsmen, you will either retreat from the battle to gain the reinforcements necessary to defeat the Xenos, or you will retreat into the firing squad!"

And defending a Rhino? Bah. I hate those metal boxes with a passion. Not to mention it makes little sense. "Guys, we're getting creamed, why don't you all come out of the Rhino and help us?" "Nah, it would be totally unfair. Besides, we're doing more important stuff, like playing Dawn of Terra. Why don't you call us when one of your guys actually kick the bucket?"

[Soultaker]

if dow2 features reinforce only at base, good chance I won't be playing it. I like dow because of the pace and the continual attacking in it. being force to retreat doesn't sound very cool to me.

[TheLoneKnight]

I expanded upon my idea (http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?p=2925149#post2925149) a little more in the suggestion box.

All factions recieving their own unique methods of reinforcement that at least partially reflect the style of game you would expect them to play. Orks reinforce anywhere and loot vehicles, Eldar dart through webways and that sort of thing.

Perhaps it is a more amiable solution than everyone simply returning to HQ to reinforce.

While I do partially agree with Silent's take on Rhinos being a reinforcement point, most factions would require some kind of mobile reinforcement capability rather than having to fall back every time you take losses. It requires a suspension of disbelief but at least it is a step up from pin-point teleportation of a single unit periodically. That stuff is particularily silly with factions like Orks.

[Versian]

Why don't recruits simply appear from strategic points? It'll make strategic points more strategic.

Reinforcing at base is hard for offense, imagine you attack an enemy base, you're doing ok but the morale of your soldiers is dropping. You need reinforcements to continue the assault, but you have to go ALL THE WAY BACK to reinforce. Doesn't sound cool with me. I say we give Strategic Points more value.

[Diode]

I agree that the "reinforce anywhere" idea could do with some improvement. It doesn't have to be done at the base, it could just be something like no reinforcing while engaged in combat (pariah's make me sooo mad because of this....., I can't kill those bastards fast enough). This, of course, might bring about alot of people retreating during combat so that they could reinforce, but squads that retreat (or bravely run away) could suffer some kind of morale damage automatically.

[Soulprick]

I would like to see a Reinforcement vehicle.
This reminds me of Battleground:
- There would be a pilot-providing structure
- If there is an unmanned vehicle near it, it could provide a pilot
- Alternatively you could have an APC carrying pilots/infantry into combat where it deploys them as necessary

Each faction's transport vehicles could double as such.

[GRIM Ripper]

well, i think dow is supposed to be more "action" oriented and fast paced vs coh... i hope they keep reinforce anywhere personally, to keep the action constant and on the front lines.

i might not mind a slight variation for each race on how they reinforce, but in general i think it should remain reinforcing on the front lines.

[FrostPaw]

Reinforcing from transports would make the rhinos more usefull....but then you have the other transports that come armed and cost pop cap.

Perhaps the answer would be simply to limit all army transports to a max of 3 give the rhinos their storm bolters back and make all transports free pop cap. That way you have 3 mobile spawn points aswell as the base but all can be taken out to halt reinforcement.

[TheLoneKnight]

Don't forget that transports are very likely going to be armed and reasonably resistant to small-arms fire in DoW2. I can almost garauntee that Relic is going to adopt CoH's vehicle system in that respect. It would be absurd not to - the CoH system (armour-wise, at least) is far more similar to the TT/canon than DoW ever was. I suspect transports will end up being far more useful, particularily if they act as mobile (if slightly vulnerable) reinforcement points.

Meanwhile forward outposts/bases are much harder to take out and end up being a more reliable reinforcement point than a transport. Plus, those two can actually construct units whereas transports can only reinforce them if you've still got the squad.

[Pseudonymn]

I'm sorry, but you people who are suggesting that reinforcing only at the base in DoW2, or indeed any WH40K setting, which is how it sounds to me, are out of your minds. Either that or you have no idea how TT rules work. The argument, "But it's more realistic this way," just doesn't hold water when one considers that WH40K's TT mechanics allow for drop pods and especially for deep striking through the warp where units literally materialize out of thin air.

While I would support both reinforcement systems in DoW2, this is not CoH2, and this is NOT a game set to a WWII background; I do not support in-base or halftrack reinforcements a la CoH2. That game mechanic sucked and I only tolerated it because it "made sense for WWII soldiers". But this is WH40K. Don't start with the realism bullshit. Please. Seriously.

That said, I think people's suggestions that in-combat reinforcements need to be adjusted hold some weight. I really like the idea of having to retreat units out of combat (they've stopped firing their guns, and aren't taking damage from enemy fire) before reinforcements become available.

Also, one other thing that might be considered is that, according to TT rules, deep striking units don't always land exactly on the intended target marker 100% of the time, which adds its own set of risks for deploying units in this manner, not the least of which are telefrags due to the target marker randomly shifting over occupied terrain. Perhaps if in-combat reinforcements are allowed, we might see a random chance that a telefrag occurs within the squad, while reinforcing at the base/transport/strategic point would be a cheaper, faster, safer alternative.

Lastly, someone mentioned that it doesn't make sense for the Necrons to reinforce anywhere while at the same time it does for other races like the Space Marines. Let me just note that, with the aid of their C'Tan gods, the Necrons' mastery over the material universe is absolute to the point where their teleportation technologies far exceed those possessed by any of the Imperium's factions. If they can do it, you can bet your ass the Necrons can do it better - and they do. That portal on the front of a Necron Monolith is not there for decorative purposes, you know.

[TheLoneKnight]

Not all factions have drop pods and teleporters are rare and their capabilities are tenuous at best. I mean what's your rationale for Orks? For Imperial Guard? They certainly aren't going to use teleporters.

At least with transports/forward reinforcement points I can imagine it makes a little sense. Heck, I'd even accept Ork boyz crawling out of the ground (even armed!) because it makes more sense than them using teleporters to bring new troops to the front.

[Captain Wicha]

to be honest... i like the idea... imagine this if you will reinforcement can be done in base... and at all strategic points... naturally your base will reinforce the fastest, but field reinforcement will be available when by a strategic point... maybe the critical locations could reinforce a little bit faster... to show the armies desire to hold onto the location... could make for some pretty sweet last stands as well!

[Rev'var]

It never made sense to me why reinforcements just came one at a time during battle. So how about if squads could be reinforced one trooper at a time at a base or strategic location (Not transports, why would they be sitting in there instead of fighting). These would be the soldiers left over from dead units or recruits waiting to be assigned a squad, whatever you like. While away from the base squads can be reinforced by other methods. The Space Marines would simply be dropped from the sky in their pods, but only in packs of four or more. This would be more costly then regular reinforcements but allow for more members to join the fight in times of crises. Orks would have the passive ability to lay spores and due to that, they could reinforce anywhere with relative ease (being the unique race). Just food for thought. I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to carry this idea to other races.

[a1ph4riu5]

I think removing reinforce anywhere would change the game so fundamentally, that it would be difficult to call it a sequel to Dawn of War.

Like somebody else said, what I like about Dawn of War is the constant fighting from the start. It's so refreshing to play an RTS game where you're rewarded for constant aggression. Reinforcing anywhere is a big part of this, because it encourages you to push ahead with your existing troops, rather than waiting for backup to arrive. It just makes the whole game faster and the combat more frequent.

[Gabriel]

I think removing reinforce anywhere would change the game so fundamentally, that it would be difficult to call it a sequel to Dawn of War.

Like somebody else said, what I like about Dawn of War is the constant fighting from the start. It's so refreshing to play an RTS game where you're rewarded for constant aggression. Reinforcing anywhere is a big part of this, because it encourages you to push ahead with your existing troops, rather than waiting for backup to arrive. It just makes the whole game faster and the combat more frequent.
Sequels make drastic changes as a matter of course. I think most of us will be disappointed if DoW2 amounts to a prettier expansion pack that cuts down on factions. And it's certainly possible to keep the gameplay aggressive while changing the reinforcement mechanics; other changes can be made to compensate if necessary. The question is not whether it can be done, but how it benefits gameplay (and, secondarily, other aspects like verisimilitude). To that end, I think reinforcement from strategic points (or comparable locations in DoW2) and/or transports is worth considering, due to the potential for added strategic depth at the expense of a little offensive momentum (doing it only at bases seems out of the question, barring other drastic changes).

As for the people who think reinforcing from transports is unrealistic, think of it as an abstracted representation of the vehicles going back to base for more men. It's certainly more realistic for most armies than having them pop out of thin air, though, again, the most important factor by far is whether it improves gameplay.

[darkpriest99]

I think that reinforcing near strategic points is a viable option. I mean the strategic point would actually become "strategic"? This would probably make all battles much longer, as attacking blindly a force near occupied and defended strategic point would mean death to attackers, but imagine that you could use artilery units and spotters to soften the defense or even make the defenders to rush out and leave the safety of a strategic point. Also in any base bashing it would become almost vital to focus on at least one of SPs in its proximity in order to destroy your opponent.

I think tat this would be much more fun, for sure in SP, and possibly in MP as well.

[Shakrith]

What we need is to have drop zones around the map where you have to take your troops to reinforce, or where you can drop new squads in.

[ThirdDanScoota]

Agreed. Agreed. Agreed.

It never made any sense at all that units would suddenly materialize into existing squads in the middle of combat. Deep Striking capability as Lone said is rare, and not entirely precise.
CoH does this well and it means that you need to consider how well you guard certain pieces of territory because you can't simply reinforce them at will. In some cases you may even need to concede territory in order to regroup and come back with a stronger force. That's war.
We also need to take into consideration the new cover system. Units likely won't drop as quickly as in DoW in many cases, so combat will probably be somewhat more drawn out (at least until a Lance Strike hits or something).

[Genesis26317]

No way to reinforce at basing, I playing DOW not DO-SC.

I do like putting something in maybe explaining how you are reinforcing like drop pods/heli's etc.

I don't even like running medics from the base to the SM group etc.

I would definately not mind having something like not allowing reinforcements while taking damage so it isn't a r r r r r clickfest while in combat.

Also maybe increasing the time it takes to reinforce but instead of doing it one at a time doing it all at once (like reinfoce 3 scouts etc), BUT make them sit, down-time no movement-wise, while it is being done.

Heh heh, instead of aircraft landing for Orks you just launch them from the nearest unit-producing structure Katapult like. :spin:


*edit* I think strategic points being used for unit drops sites is a GREAT freaking idea BTW. HEll the no build area is a perfect landing pad.

[Droids_R]

I hope so! Reinforcing at base adds a ton of strategic depth. You actually care about losing your squad.

However, I could see some races reinforcing anywhere to resemble their swarm ability. Perhaps Tyranids, if they are included, could reinforce near Synapse Creatures (most of the time), while Space Marines have to retreat to their base.

[corncobman]

I would like it if the squads away from base reinforce at a slower rate than if you were near, and no reinforcing once the squad is in combat, but no to removing reinforcing in the field completely.

[Ifitmovesnukeit]

I hope so! Reinforcing at base adds a ton of strategic depth. You actually care about losing your squad.


Uh, what? In DoW you care about losing a squad anyway because the reinforce-anywhere mechanism is useless if it's a new squad you need.

And as far as making you care about losing squad members is concerned- yeah, if by "care" you mean "feel annoyed because now you need to trudge back across the map to get your force at full fighting-strength again".

[Black Phoenix]

I think that the current mechanism for reinforcing must stay.. sort off.. It would be nice if the new units are deployed near the reinforced squad via air transport (or deep striking, or whatever specials the units have) for example. It would be an entire new game layer if the approaching transport could be shot down during the approaching & unit deployment.

Maybe when the units are reinforced near a base, the cost per unit could be lower-compared to the one in the battlefield. They will emerge from the appropriate building like in COH- thus saving the fuel of the transport vehicle :)

[troglodytejb]

One thing that I see popping up again and again is the question of aggression-- the reinforce at base mechanic doesn't mean that you have to be less aggressive, and in fact lends itself to MORE aggression. Pushing back an enemy means you can push further into their territory, and then they in turn can either try to push you back or bypass you and strike at your territory. Rather than a war of attrition, it becomes a tactical choice.

As for the deep strike mechanic, not every unit has them in TT, even when it's available to a side. A couple more thoughts: perhaps reinforcing at strategic points would work, but I'd like to see it require a cheap structure-- a "reinforcement beacon" perhaps... For sure, I'd like to see more front-lines reinforcement than in CoH, because it matches the game style better, but it should DEFINITELY require deployment of support structures, abilities, or units. That adds a tactical aspect too-- if a transport is feeding your opponent reinforcements, you can either try to outlast them or flank to trash the transport. If the enemy is using a commander's ability to place a reinforcement beacon while in combat, they've sacrificed the attack power of that commander.

Thoughts?

[Ifitmovesnukeit]

Well, from my point of view it does lead to less aggression- defending your base is going to be a lot easier if you can reinforce your squads but your opponent can't.

[{OGS}Sirius]

actualy reinforce at base a chimera for guard may be a good think. When in base ig can reinforce in 0 seconds XD since its thier turf. and by chim its regular reinforcement rate. Also i thought about reinforce anywhere and it often brings a bit of a cheap annoyance, not for the gaurd reforceing but for the enemy i fight. Like raptors kill oen raptor and get another one back.

[Helmet_Shell]

is there any chance we can keep CoH2 separate from Dow2? with a reinforce in the base mechanic what left is there, other from fully fledged base building, to stop it become CoH in space?? Relic need to keep thier products at least a bit different! =P

Not to say that one is better but they are different play styles...

Take IG for example. In the fluff it is basically ANYONE seen deserting the front line is killed as an example and it takes a complete collapse of thier front lines for a retreat to occur. How can you ever have HQR (HQ reinforcement) with that? The commisar sees that he has lost 1/5 of his squad so he goes crying all the way back to base to get it back... i would have thought he would have seen every single one of them die before running away... In Dow this is obvious that you keep your commie with your GM until they are all dead then you run like your pants are on fire until you can get him back to a GM to turn around and retake that front line.

Again take sm. Why would the emperors finest go "ZOMG NOOZ!11 WE LOST A DUDE RUNN TO THE HQ!!!11" (over embellished of course ;) ). I would have thought they would stay put until reinforcements arrive not go running to their mums.

40k is not like WWII where you try and keep your men alive. This is the grim futures and the is only war. these men and xenos are bred to die not pussy foot around running away every time they take a hit.

I just dont that introducing this mechanic to get things more believable makes them any better because you are only going against the fluff, which imho is worse...

In game though the maps would have to MUCH larger so that you could actually flank an opponent. only played a few levels of CoH but my general feeling (and please correct me if i am wrong) the maps are bigger to allow more tactical deployment options. large maps with small retreating/pushing forces leads to a death by papercuts not death by decapitation (ie lots of little strikes until one fatally hits your base instead of fighting and fighting then suddenly you are dead and get steam rolled). WWII was fought like that because a mans life meant he could fight tomorrow - 40k they dont care they want that territory,relic or w/e.... With this mechanic you couldnt early harass, you couldnt have full out blood baths just because the second you start taking hits you need to retreat that squad and get it back up to strength (i mean really could you imagine a commisar say "oh no! quick lets just go have a quick breather...").

And wasnt this in conjunction with pinning the CoH version of Morale? Morale makes MUCH more sense for 40k. you can keep a tsm squad fighting when it believes its in deep shit (aka broken) but it is not recommended. When you pull them out they are not running away they are being ordered to retreat and regroup so they can be better used later but it IS NOT in a sm nature to run the fuck away cos he believes he is in deep shit. he stays and fights because he must fight for the emperor and does not care about himself. Death to the enemy is a part of his service to the emperor, not recommended but certainly a part.

[/rant]

Sorry.. but i just dont think it fits with dow fullstop. That said i would love to see strategic points be strategic. Maybe the imperium races get slower+more expensive reinforcements in combats> the cost in neutral territory>the cost near a SP or build zones. That makes it preferable that you go back to base but certainly not necessary. Maybe IG get a larger reinforce time unless a commisar is in the squad (as the men are shitting themselves for running into battle but with a commisar they are more scared about not getting there quick enough), orks get the same costs etc in battle as in neutral areas as all orkz love killing, eldar cc units get nurfed if they get sniped/ ranged get decreased times if in an enemy is withing a small radius (as they are supposed to be specialist to ranged/cc and not used to engaging in another aspect warriors methods so uncertainty occurs?). webways would count as an SP as long as you had a gate linked to a sp/building zone as realistically they could just jump through there and into the frey.

If you can imagine that you can store unlimited amounts of troops in a rhino for reinforcement i am sure you can imagine that the time it takes for a member to reinforce is the time taken being sent from HQ to the battle. Maybe some mechanic could be in place that when a non teleporting squad gets cut off they cannot reinforce. that means you dont want to lose ground but you still get the mechanic of fighting for the same inch squared on your monitor for 10minutes. And as annoying as that might be that is how it is in 40k, its not WWII.

[TheLoneKnight]

For those who disagree with the clumsily-named "Reinforce at Base" mechanic:

This mechanic does not mean you can reinforce solely at HQ. That would be absurd. You would be able to reinforce through forward bases. In other words, structures you establish near the front lines for the express purpose of giving your units a shorter distance to fall back before reinforcing.

It also means that squads would likely become substantially less expensive than their initial squad purchasing price. 1/4 or 1/2 the cost, thus making reinforcing a squad far more viable than simply producing more squads.

And finally, it means that it is very likely units would be able to reinforce through faction APCs which are extremely likely to be far more heavily armoured, resistant to most small-arms fire and armed with an adequate weapon. It does not need to stop to reinforce, nor does it need to stop shooting.

Although I would like to see unit reinforcement, regardless of the mechanic they use, become disabled during combat, so that last bit might not even be relevant.

The end result is that you can still reinforce on the front lines, you don't need to retreat all the way back to your base and the only serious change to gameplay is that you can't sit your units eternally on your front line/in the enemy base/etc - that you need to back off every so often to spend some points to reinforce your squad back up to full strength.

The only way this leads to noticably lessened aggression is if you're rushing the enemy, sitting in their base, and you for some reason didn't bring a reasonably cheap APC to reinforce your squads.

Myself, I'd perfer a unique mechanic depending on the style of the race as I outlined in an earlier post rather than just "reinforce at base"-styled stuff for everyone. Reinforcing at outposts/APCs certainly fits the style of Imperial Guard and possibly Space Marines, although space marines are more likely to use drop pods to send in whole new squads, whereas Orks would never create an outpost to retreat to, or drag along an APC filled with boyz - they'd just wait around for more boyz to come out of the woodwork and mob up whatever squads that survived.

[Helmet_Shell]

@theloneknight: If men appearing out of nowhere to reinforce a squad is absurd (said by others before dont think you did :)) how is it different to be able to have an endless supply of men from a transport on the front line?

I am just wondering cos i got confused by the lack of difference.... or if its just a strategic one :)

[a1ph4riu5]

Although it initially sounds like a better idea to allow reinforcing at strategic points, as well as your base structures... this would make it much harder for the enemy to take back a strategic point once it has been taken.

Unless the whole resource system was completely changed so that strategic points no longer provide you with your main resource... taking a strategic point would give an economic advantage *and* a reinforcement advantage. That sounds like way too much. You don't want to make DoW gameplay any more of a slippery slope than it already is, because it's already fairly difficult to make a comeback once the enemy has captured the points in "no man's land".

Removing the ability to reinforce anywhere and while in combat would reduce the level of reward for constant aggression... there isn't really any way around that. If some people actually want a slower paced, less aggressive kind of game, then fair enough... but I want a sequel to DoW to be faithful to the core gameplay that made it so popular. CoH is a different animal altogether, as far as I'm concerned. People expect more realism in a historical game. DoW 2 doesn't have to be CoH in space. There are plenty of other ways to improve/expand on the original DoW gameplay, without lazily adopting the CoH model.

[KPMaker]

To me it makes perfect sense to be able to reinforce only at your base and certain points (strategic or buildings captured.) This is one reason why I enjoy CoH better than DoW now because it is a step up in terms of strategy, and is exactly what DoW2 needs.

I hate fast paced RTS games, especially when stupid infantry can take out a building, so stinking lame. :crash:
C&C 3 is one of the worst RTS games I’ve ever played, 8 mins later it’s GG. Also has anyone here tried the Firestorm Mod where you can only reinforce when not in battle; much more enjoyable to me.

Point 1) Being aggressive is still possible. It’s not like you going to have to reinforce every squad at the same time. You can still be aggressive but you just have to be very tactical and strategic about it. CoH is the perfect example, hello? :donny:

Point 2) Destroying a base. Infantry should only be able to take out a structure if they have the right weapon. This whole stupid game-play mechanic where a bolter like weapon can take out a building is one of the worst things I’ve seen in RTS games throughout the years. Vehicles should be your primary means of taking a base, and playing strategically means your infantry are behind the vehicle push thus making it less likely that you have to pull your infantry back to reinforce.

Point 3) So many other RTS games are so fast paced, do we really want DoW2 to join the fray. CoH is by far much more enjoyable not because of the setting but the strategic elements involved such as vehicle armor, movement facing, environmental advantages, reinforcing only at certain points, and so on…

Note: A RTS game with less base building and almost instant action without the fantastic strategic elements in CoH will lead to a MP/Skirmish game similar to Codename Panzers Phase 1 or Warhammer: Mark of Chaos which will be quit lame. :wtf:

[Chris]

Don't see the point in changing it.

The ability to reinforce any time, anywhere is a feature of DoW that makes it unique and lends to the games particular style. Seems to me that this feature would favour the defender over the attacker, which is the complete opposite of how DoW generally works.

If DoW2 turns into CoH in space I will be very disappointed.

[neucromaner]

yes reinforcement in HQ
or any building
unless drop in from pod etc

and while we are at it
why not have ammo numbers, and run out of bullets have to mettle
or go back to HQ to get new ammo

and while we are at it
why not have food and water, run out of food and water, go back to HQ to get food

why dun COH people go back to COH and stay away from DOW.

[Helmet_Shell]

@KPMaker: I know what you mean but CoH was designed to be more strategic, DoW designed to be fast paced. This means Relic have not put all their eggs in one basket, if play style falls out of favor the other wont be affected. Silly to change them to the same thing

lol eg. How would you like it if in CoH they took away base reinforcing and made it anywhere on the map.... just does not go with the game... well imo anyway :p

[troglodytejb]

Helmet--

Taking away base reinforce from CoH would be a huge change, and I wouldn't like it, which is why I created this thread. Since I'm a CoH player first and a DoW player second, I wanted to see how regular DoW players felt-- and the reaction seems to be mixed.

One thing that I would LOVE to see, maybe even more than reinforce-at-base, is making reinforce a tactical decision rather than a debate between two options. Consider: all races start with reinforce at base. Researching various tech gives them race specific options. Here's a few suggestions:

Space Marines: Tech: Orbital Superiority. Space marines can be dropped anywhere on the map and reinforce extremely quickly. However, if they are dropped in enemy territory, they have a % chance to be shot down by high-altitude AA, wasting the resources.

Necrons: Tech: Teleportation (no good name for it). When a Necron squad requests reinforcements, a hibernating warrior is produced inside the monolith. If the squad comes close to the monolith, the warrior is awakened and joins his squad. However, if the player activates the "Teleport Reinforcements" ability on the monolith, ALL of the hibernating warriors are immediately teleported to the squad that requisitioned them.

IG: Tech: Conscription. IG squads gain a steady trickle of free reinforcements. These reinforcements run from the base to join their squad. Squads can be "Overfilled" above capacity if they avoid combat long enough, or perhaps if they get enough kills. Manual reinforcement can only be completed at reinforcing structures or units.

Eldar: Tech: Warp Mastery. Eldar gain the ability to reinforce at warp nodes.

These are just suggestions, but it provides a middle ground in the issue that allows the aggressiveness to continue, but provides further tactical options and differentiation between races.

Thoughts?

[Zwebbie]

Company of Heroes does have one unit - Airborne - that can reinforce anywhere, but they're rather costly to reinforce to compensate for it. Buildings can be turned into a forward HQ with the cost of roughly a squad, so they become important strategic locations. Halftracks, while generally being a bit useless, can be a huge asset to keeping momentum and recovering quickly.

It's that nice bit of extra strategic depth. CoH is hardly a sluggish game where it takes teams eons to recover after a battle. It's very possible to reap the spoils of war after you've driven an enemy off. You usually recover pretty quickly, in fact, because the Retreat option helps you save squads from total extinction. Personally, I'm one of those 'once you've met CoH's depth, there's no going back'-guys, but I'm tired of the WW2 setting.

I'd also imagine you can do some nice creative things with reinforcing - for example, Space Marines reinforcing anywhere with drop pods in batches of a couple of men, Eldar reinforcing anywhere and Orks running back to base or a Warboss to regroup. We'll see. I'm hopeful :) .

[KPMaker]

@Helmet Shell: I see what you are saying, and don’t get me wrong to each his own. If someone likes DoW pacing over CoH pacing then have it, it’s just not for me and I’m sure a majority of other RTS gamers.

DoW was great for it’s time, but considering CoH is it’s spiritual successor, it only makes sense to continue the growth and add the things learned in CoH to DoW2 which should make it different then both of those games, being the 3rd formula so to speak.

This thread consists of a very good topic to debate and it could go either way, but I personally do not think Relic would be putting all their eggs in one basket if DoW2 had a majority of the same strategic elements that CoH has. The fact that they appear to be cutting back on base building and focusing more on individual squad upgrades will already set it apart from DoW. ;)

[troglodytejb]

Zwebbie, you've summed up my perspective perfectly. Thanks.

KP, one thing to consider is that the main thing that differentiates CoH is the cover and destructible environments. That stuff is already in, so it remains a question of how these 40k units cannot exploit those mechanics. The game could support base-reinforcing and still be WILDLY different in play from CoH.

Even with base reinforce, we're unlikely to see mounted MGs, mortars, AT guns, arty, etc. We WILL see stealth squads, battlesuits, demons, etc. THAT's what differentiates DoW from CoH, not minor changes. So no, I don't want CoH in space, but I want 40k with CoH's depth.

[KPMaker]

Zwebbie, I totally agree. It’s very hard for me to play DoW now, I mean really hard. The depth in CoH is so much superior I just cannot fathom going backwards.


DoW2 Recipe:

40K Universe
CoH Strategic Depth
Added Melee from DoW
More *%$#@#$@ fantastic animations than DoW
Formula change to go with the 40K setting (e.g. less base building, individual squad upgrades, and so on…)


Troglodytejb, I agree totally and that is what I want as well, I just did not clarify as well as I thought I did. The formula change is where 40K should be different from CoH. Although, it would be interesting to see the IG share some similarities to CoH considering they are sort of a future version of a WW2 army.

[Verruna]

one thing i enjoyed about dow was the quickness of the games compared to other games like Age of empires 3 which takes 4 times as long per game.. i love just playing a satisifing 20-30 minute game. wouldn't reinforce at base increase this time dramatically?

[KPMaker]

Not necessarily Verruna, there appears to be less base building in DoW2 from the little snippet of info we’ve received so far so that could cut back on the time.

Also, I’ve played many CoH skirmishes/MP games that lasted around 30-35 mins. ;)

[LoRd KoRn]

who says for sure that there is a "base" ;)

[KPMaker]

True LoRd KoRn, I should of said less if not none. :salute:

[TheLoneKnight]

No bases whatsoever would certainly be a welcome change, but since we don't have concrete evidence one way or another that bases have been removed I'll remain a proponent of the reinforce at base/outpost/APC with different reinforcement methods for other species mechanic.

By the way, Helmet Shell, it is different because it is moderately less blatant than a flash of light and a unit instantaneously appearing in your squad. In this way you'd at least see a guy leaving the APC and running to join up with your squad - the only suspension of disbelief you'd have there is that not all soldiers had left the APC. It is more pleasing from an aesthetic and canonical perspective. It's not perfect, sure, but it's better than what is currently in place.

[alisbin]

seems to me the best reinforcement method in general would be to kinda combine reinforcement in the field and the reinforce anywhere method. example, you take 2 casualties in a tsm squad, you click the reinforce button and the nearest reinforcement point (maybe drop markers that any SM leader unit can drop or something) spawns 2 new soldiers, but the soldiers then have to run to the squad before you can use them (think reverse of retreat in CoH). or maybe use some sort attach idea, you drop/teleport/train "replacement troops" at a reinforcement point and then you get them to the squad you want reinforced, attach them and they become ordinary squad members. something like this would certainly add strategy cause it would require you to maintain troop supply lines.

now, some unit types wouldnt use this method, terminators, daemon packs, warp spiders and the like, which would make them more valuble, but reinforcing for those units would take longer and/or have risks of losing the reinforcements.

and each race would become more unique based on HOW it reinforces, human races would be the norm of course (since most of us are humans after all) but races like eldar/DE/necron would have more exotic (maybe teleport based, or in the necrons case raising), possibly more powerful but harder to use options. also, such races would be more expensive to reinforce.

basically, why does it need to be either/or? WH40k has some fantastic fluff ways to deliver troops that are actually tactically viable and require THOUGHT from the commander when deploying reinforcements. and its not like an engine can't be made to accommodate the fluff (and unless someone at relic says no can do i'm not accepting it can't be done).

[Gale_Force15]

Has anyone actually considered nixing reinforcement entirely? I think we should be able to call units in individually, and THEN form squads. Then if a squad lost any units you'd just back them up with some sentries in the area.

I never really liked the qhole squad system from the original DoW, but a make-your-own squad system with certain rules could be very flufftastic. Hell, maybe we could even name units ;3

[aerziel]

if they nix enforcing how will you save your veteran squads?

[GRIM Ripper]

reinforcing in base is just so much more sluggish imo... not to say its worse, its just when youre duking it out in a huge battle, and you constantly have to pull squads away from combat to break up the action, its "sluggish." it may appear to be more tactical, but its just as tactical to balance reinforcing w/resources and the situation as it is now...

and as others have said, reinforcing in your own territory only enforces defensive play... DOW is all about getting out on the field and ATTACKING strategic points etc...

finally, its been said before, but again... DOW is DOW... if you want reinforcing in base and that more realistic approach, just play coh. i really hope they just build on the basic DOW formula (more customizeability, better and more combat variables, better vehicle model, etc) rather then redefining the whole game. and MAN i hope they keep base building...

[TheLoneKnight]

Do you honestly think aggression will be entirely removed if you can't reinforce in combat/enemy territory? What about the APC thing (which would allow reinforcement in enemy territory)?

Aggression will be present no matter how you mess with reinforcement. You can't win the game just by dicking around in your base waiting for your opponent to quit, after all, so what are you really losing here?

Hell, why not some completely different reinforcement mechanic altogether? What if it wasn't just relegated to base reinforcement, what if it was reinforcement at strat points, or critical/relic locations? What if buildings were removed altogether and you could only reinforce at specified locations across the map?

Why should we stick with a lazy reinforcement method that allows you to replenish squads in combat/enemy base and maintain a decisive advantage every time you win a single fight? What's wrong with giving the defending player a slight advantage? Don't players who lose the first battle deserve an opportunity to stave off destruction long enough to make a comeback?

[hylander25k]

I agree with this.

Reinforcing at not only Bases, but LPs and APCs could add an interesting mechanic. Converesely, having specific "drop Zones" for reinforcements, spread across hot spots on the map (one starting in the persons base, another in the center or centrally located) could give the players almost a king of the hill gameplay feel.

[Shakrith]

hylander, you win. This is what I've been saying. There are fluff ways you can make sure that gameplay is tight, and forcing players to hold onto key locations where they can bring in troops - capturing and using buildings rather than building them - is the way to do it.

[Inquisitoriae]

Though I like the idea, I think it slows down the game. The pace of CoH is probably the main reason that I (and my friends) returned to dow. I think we maybe played OF for about two weeks before returning once more to the fast-paced games of dow.

If you consider the fluff, most races in the 40th millenium can arguably reinforce in the field:
SM: Teleport beacons. Each squad has one (GK SM can teleport in TT - so it's not just termies).
Eldar: Enter from the webway. Dropship.
Orks: Kustom teleporta or simply coming out of the ground, getting some gear from other squad members
Chaos: Warp rift.
IG: Dropship
Tau: Dropship
Necrons: Can phase out to any location with the lord in TT (VoD), so they can phase out to another squad.
Sisters: Dropship
Dark Eldar: Enter from the webway. Dropship.

In my opinion realism should never go before gameplay. It's just a matter of making the field reinforcements look more plausible.

[Oxyde2]

Honestly, I'd have a lot more fun if there wasn't any replacement-style reinforcement (adding individual members to squads). Forces you to be careful with your units, and if you have a squad that took so many casualties it's useless, you just go to your nearest drop/buy/spawn-zone, "redeem" the squad and get a fresh one to compensate for your problems.

And as for ways to allow units to reinforce on the field as they do now, I'm afraid most of the factions don't have anything.

-Space Marines: teleporters are rare. Grey Knights only have it because they're the Elite of the Elite.
-Eldar: webway gates are static structures that can only teleport stuff in a reasonably short range around them.
-Orks: kustom teleportas are not all that common, and simply coming out of the ground doesn't work either (orks spawn from fungal subterranean wombs, they don't just grow like potatoes).
-Chaos: warp rifts are a good option. It's just that you rarely see anything besides demons coming out of those.
-Imperial Guard: they don't send dropships in just because a squad lost two men, they send the ships to deliver entire squads (plural).
-Tau: same as Imperial Guard.
-Dark Eldar: same as Eldar.

EDIT: ah, right. Forgot the Necrons. They come out of Tombs, are reassambled on the field as needed and teleport in entire squads.

[Inquisitoriae]

My point was that it can be done within the fluff. You can't imagine it, but I can.

DoW is not TT and TT does not always follow the fluff of 40k. Believe it or not, but there are also a ton of balance issues in TT and the races have been carefully balanced, sometime disregarding the fluff. The most important thing to learn when you play TT is that realism is not an argument. If you play TT and start an argument with: "It would be most realistic if...", any GW employee would look oddly at you, probably saying something like, "but this is a game and we're here to have fun, not to model the real world."

SM: Rare, but they exist.
Eldar: WS can use their warp-pack to teleport, so Eldar have the technology to appear.
Orks: They do spawn right out of the ground in the latest codex. (there's even a drawing showing a fullgrown ork right below the surface of the earth).
Chaos: Anything goes.
IG, Tau: I don't see the problem.
DE: They have similar tech to Eldar.

[Oxyde2]

Hey, if you're going to do it like that then Space Marines should be able to win the game automatically by declaring Exterminatus. :P

Making it look believable is one thing, but if you simply keep teleporting stuff in it'll make no difference, it won't be any more believable than DoW.

[Dark_Avenger]

Having to reinforce at an HD/forward HQ/APC personally is much more tactical, can give you an advantage actually using the transport for one, and for 2 you can more easily defend a fortified position like in CoH.

[Inquisitoriae]

Hey, if you're going to do it like that then Space Marines should be able to win the game automatically by declaring Exterminatus. :Plol. :D

Having to reinforce at an HD/forward HQ/APC personally is much more tactical, can give you an advantage actually using the transport for one, and for 2 you can more easily defend a fortified position like in CoH.Yes, that's exactly what I think is the problem: The pace of the game is slowed down.
If you want major logistical challenges that can take hours, I'd recommend a game like Supreme Commander.

[Dark_Avenger]

well the pace isnt that slowed down, have you played CoH before?

And I wouldnt exactly call DOW faced pace to begin with, there are a lot of games where its just a long slugfest untill someone hits t4.

[TheLoneKnight]

I find matches of CoH are even more desperate/aggressive than matches of DoW in many cases simply because you can't afford to let your opponent retreat long enough to reinforce his squads. If he retreats you're going to be trying to capture as much as you can as fast as you can - probing holes in his territory and trying to solidify whatever ground you manage to grab.

Please, man, stop exaggerating. An APC doesn't take hours, nor is it a huge logistical issue. You take it along with your infantry and you can reinforce within seconds - there is no noticeable difference between that and reinforcing everywhere except you've got an armoured vehicle your troops can hop into to move around faster.

And, as I've pointed out before, a side effect of this reinforcement technique is that reinforcements are much cheaper; reinforcing a squad ends up costing far less than it normally would and usually happens quite a bit faster than in DoW as well. If reinforcements were a global occurrence they would likely need to remain slow and expensive because otherwise you'd never kill them fast enough. :p

[Inquisitoriae]

well the pace isnt that slowed down, have you played CoH before?If you read a few posts back, you would know the answer. I love coh (as well as OF) and played it alot, but I (and my friends) think that the pace in dow is more fun and just don't play it anymore (mp that is).
And I wouldnt exactly call DOW faced pace to begin with, there are a lot of games where its just a long slugfest untill someone hits t4.To my knowledge there are not many rts' that can match the pace of dow, but maybe you can enlighten me?

EDIT:
Please, man, stop exagerrating. An APC doesn't take hours, nor is it a huge logistical issue. I don't know if you're addressing me, but it sure sounds like it: Your argumentation shows that you didn't read up on the discussion or my initial point, so I'll just disregard your comment.

[{OGS}Sirius]

Um rise of nations was pretty fast paced, if i can plan it out right i can kill someone in the stone ages with out even teching.

Starcraft sorta fast paced key word sorta.

Ummm Malestorm very fast paced and @.@ pretty freaky i might add.

[TheLoneKnight]

Your initial point was entirely unrelated to your comment about logistics, Inquisitoriae, that's why I didn't bother to acknowledge it; I'm not arguing for absolute realism or anything of the sort. I disagree with your implication that CoH's reinforcement system is anywhere as slow as Supreme Commander's, however, so I adressed your little exaggeration.

I simply think that a "more plausible" method of reinforcement is preferable to spontaneous flashes of light. Teleportation technology may exist in the fluff but for most races it is ludicrously dangerous - even for those races that have seemingly mastered its arts like the Eldar consider it too dangerous to stray from the stable webway paths. That doesn't even take into account the Warp Spider teleportation mechanisms that require countless years of training to operate with any modicum of effectiveness.

Teleporation is silly not just from a realistic perspective, it's silly from a canonical perspective. Hell, it's even silly from a pragmatic perspective; who's going to waste all that energy to transport a single guardsman whose life expectancy is somewhere between five and thirty seconds once the fighting starts?

[Inquisitoriae]

I disagree with your implication that CoH's reinforcement system is anywhere as slow as Supreme Commander's, however, so I adressed your little exaggeration.Yes. I think I tried to illustrate my point by mentioning supcom. It was not meant as "reinforcements at base is like a game of supcom", but I thought that was clear from my previous posts.

I simply think that a "more plausible" method of reinforcement is preferable to spontaneous flashes of light. Teleportation technology may exist in the fluff but for most races it is ludicrously dangerous - even for those races that have seemingly mastered its arts like the Eldar consider it too dangerous to stray from the stable webway paths. That doesn't even take into account the Warp Spider teleportation mechanisms that require countless years of training to operate with any modicum of effectiveness.Then we agree! My point was to make it more plausible, while avoiding slowing the pace of the game.

Teleporation is silly not just from a realistic perspective, it's silly from a canonical perspective. Hell, it's even silly from a pragmatic perspective; who's going to waste all that energy to transport a single guardsman whose life expectancy is somewhere between five and thirty seconds once the fighting starts?lol yes. But it is agame, so who cares about realism as long as it is plausible? :D

[Andkat]

My point was that it can be done within the fluff. You can't imagine it, but I can.

Just because something is possible does not make it plausible. An enormous range of highly improbable and illogical things could potentially be justified within Warhammer 40,000 due to the malleability and openness of the fluff (over millions of worlds and battlefields, there are bound to be exceptions to almost every rule, after all). However, what is common and believable is what is more plausible, and that is where your attempts to justify reinforce-anywhere fall apart. While it is true that a few Naval units or specialized Regiments may possess the inclination to risk large and expensive transports on a highly consistent basis to replace a few losses every few minutes, but on the majority of battlefields in the majority of instances, this will not be the case. Likewise, it is conceivable that a few Orky tribez might be loaded with Tellyportas or a few specialized Marine Chapters in possession of exceptional quantities of teleportation technology (such as the Grey Knights themselves, for instance), but they are not going to be the norm or anywhere approaching it. Likewise, most Chapters are not going to waste Drop Pods reinforcing squads with individual Marines (and the degree of precision required to hit a squad, especially a mobile one, in such a manner makes it highly implausible regardless). And so on and so forth. While a few races or units may be capable of justifying reinforce-anywhere (Grey Knight and Terminator teleportation- though considering the complexity of the teleportation process, reinforcing at structures or specific points would make far more sense than reinforcing-anywhere, Necrons due to teleportation and re-assembly, etc.)., the overwhelming bulk of them cannot consistently and/or plausibly do so.

You argue that it is not necessary for gameplay to absolutely adhere to fluff. While this may be true, this does not mean that it is best for it to go out of its way to violate it when perfectly functional and "fluffy" solutions to the same problems already exist. Such as in the case of unit reinforcement. By your logic, it would be fine to represent all Space Marines as Grey Knight, have the Craftworlders be Chaos-corrupted, and give every Ork a deffblasta because it is plausible/extant somewhere in the 40k Universe.

[Inquisitoriae]

Nice post Andkat. I can't say I disagree. But what would you like best?

[Slyfe]

I think this would further inhibit people from playing with more melee oriented units...if you cant reinforce in combat the melee units will have to run through fire, and then chase as the opposing player begins his dance....now if you cant reinforce on the spot the melee units are eventually going to be made worthless if not the case right off the bat.

It works in CoH because you dont have alot of melee oriented units that play style similar to dow melee units. I like the idea of it but it would have to be implemented in such way that it didnt further handicap whats already handicapped..

[TheLoneKnight]

It wouldn't be useless if you used the transports to zoom up to the enemy really quick and then let the CC units out. You're already within range of the transport and in CC without getting hurt - where's the downside again? :D

[Oxyde2]

You could also disrupt the enemy units as you charge in. CoH has Suppression and Pinning, which helps your units come up close where they're a lot more powerful (MP-40 Volksgrenadiers and Thompson Rangers from the original CoH come to mind). Throw a couple bombs, pin the enemy down, then rush in with your assault elements.

[Andkat]

That, and limited reinforcement makes more sense from a fluff/general logical standpoint. Keep in mind that the precise mechanics of the game are not likely to be exactly equivalent to those of the original Dawn of War- units aren't necessarily going to die as quickly, move as slowly, etc., and without knowing how the game will flow and how things tend to play out, we really can't make a proper judgment on which option would work best for DoW 2.

[TheLoneKnight]

No kidding. Imagine if they implemented Tank Shock - you run in and everyone is disoriented/scattered just long enough for the CC units to dive out and start bashing them over the head. We'll see how nice your damn ranged superiority is then, mm!?

Particularily if they implement those awesome new Wartrukk rules that give it a chance to explode, swerve randomly and then explode, or simply fall apart and allow the boyz aboard to hop out and get into the thick of it. Blastin' my wagons isn't gonna help you now, squishy pinkskin!

[darkpriest99]

To be honest i would like to see some change to melee combat. for example 40% of the squad remains fighting once you go running away from melee units (trip animations or some other clashing comes to mind). That would be a sweet change and woud not make melee units completly uselsess if you do not have any fire support and you have less units than the 'dancer'. how could that possible that 3 packs of ranged units would avoid two fully reinfroced squads of nobz for example ;)

[TheLoneKnight]

It would be nice to see close combat a little harder to escape from, but what I'd really like to see is in-house close combat.

In other words, if a bunch of Space Marines have taken up position in a building a mob of Boyz can storm in after them, engaging them in CC inside the building forcing them to either attempt a retreat (getting wounded in the process) or stick around and hope that they can kill all the orks.

[Silent]

While fluff is important, it should, in all case, take a backseat to gameplay (because a game wouldn't be fun if one side becomes uberly-powerful as one guy's interpretion of the Fluff claim it to be...and a game is supposed to be an abstraction of real-life events anyway and can't truly be relied on), and I just prefer reinforcement-anywhere rather than just reinforce-at-base or reinforce-at-rhino. Reinforcement-anywhere was why I bought DoW1, actually. It differed it from other RTSes, turning it into something a bit more casual, and in the end, made the game pretty fun. Take that away, and Relic may lose my $30.

But if we are going to get rid of reinforcement-anywhere, then have it only "Reinforce-at-base". I'm not going to have my goons escort a huge metal box through the arena just so that it get blown up by Tankbusters.

And it would nerf the idea of transports too. About the only time I saw them useful was getting my guys in, ramming them through enemy lines, and then deploying them so that my men would be able to attack the enemy without having to suffer damage getting there. Then I could retreat the Rhino/transport and repeat the same process over and over. Turn Rhino into 'mobile-reinforcement-point', and that use seems to be gone.

[HiveMind]

It really wouldn't slow things down that much. Reinforcing from bases in the current DoW would slow the game down and make it harder for attackers, but these changes aren't being done to DoW1. Relic can put in other things to compensate. For example:

1. Make buildings immune to small arms fire, like they should always have been, and allow anti-tank units in T1. This speeds up the game; if you get past their army in T1, their base dies fast enough to compensate for the lack of reinforcements. This doesn't have too much in the way of balance implications; if you rush them, kill their infantry units with anti-tank units and get to their base with an army while they have nothing, you've won anyway.
2. Make reinforcement only at strategic points instead. That favours the defender slightly, but the attacker can capture the defender's strategic points and reverse the equation.
3. Have units that can reinforce in the field fairly early in the game. This allows the attacker to use these units to base-bash, but they would have more expensive reinforcements, which would force you to use combined arms to get rid of the enemy's cheaper and thus more numerous troops before you can use them to full effect. These units would be:
Space Marines - Assault marines, terminators, assault terminators, land speeders (they come in squadrons in TT)
Chaos Space Marines - Raptors, lesser daemons, terminators, obliterators
Orks - Stormboyz, deffkoptaz
Eldar - Warp Spiders, Swooping Hawks, Vypers, Guardian Jetbikes, Shining Spears
Imperial Guard - Nothing, this would be a racial disadvantage compensated by cheaper normal reinforcements, better forward bases or some other feature.
Tau Empire - Vespid Stingwings, Stealth Suits, Crisis Suits, Piranhas, Drones
Necrons - Flayed Ones, anyone near a Monolith
Dark Eldar - Scourges, Hellions, Reaver Jetbikes
Witch Hunters - Seraphim, some inducted troops
Daemonhunters - Grey Knights, Grey Knight Terminators, Grey Knight Purgators, some inducted troops
Tyranids - Gargoyles, Raveners

Every race has at least one unit listed there that can quite easily be T1, so you can hit them with reinforcing squads early on.

[TheLoneKnight]

Silent, I think you'd find that ramming your APC into the enemy line and unloading some good CC units would pretty effectively negate the reason for reinforcing in the first place. Nobody said you couldn't drag your APC out immediately afterwards; given that vehicles are likely to have directional armour and a pretty high resistance to small arms fire (far more than was present in DoW), there's a decent enough chance that rhino could escape. Particularily if it has smoke grenades or something to cover the retreat.

Meanwhile your CC units can give his AT infantry something more unpleasant to worry about than your little scurrying APC. ;)

[DoW2]

Teleports, drop pods and pretty much... Just drops work for Space Marines.

Technically they could reinforce anywhere. They could even queue units into a single drop pod and reinforce that way...

Either way, they should come out of SOMETHING and not materialize from thin air.

[Silent]

Silent, I think you'd find that ramming your APC into the enemy line and unloading some good CC units would pretty effectively negate the reason for reinforcing in the first place.

1) I was "compelled" to ram the APC into enemy lines due to two SP missions: One in DoW where you had to destroy a cell of Eldar snipers, and the second mission in WA where you had to attack a Chaos base. Both times, they told me to build an APC and use it to transport troops, which I did because the enemy was pounding my guys into rubble, and I want to accomplish all Secondary Objectives.

It wasn't 'fun', so I didn't actually prefer it. It was effective, but still...wasn't 'personal'. However, I may consider doing it...if I have to again, maybe in an MP game.

2) I don't build CC units too. Well, except if I have to, anyway. I usually like ranged units better...firepower sounds more fun than using a fist.

So, I seem to be intentionally gimping myself in the battlefield because I'd like war to fit my own romantic views of the meatgrinder of World War I. That why I sorta like the many deaths and the reinforce-anywhere, it fits with the butchery and savegry of 'trench warfare'. And I'm used to it, of course.

[TheLoneKnight]

I'm sorry if this all sounds a little snappy - I don't really intend it to be - but I'm really not sure I understand what our little dialogue went through just now.

First you complained that the only use you saw for transports was breaking the enemy line and that even that use would be negated if they allowed nearby squads to reinforce.

Then I counter with a scenario in which a transport could quite effectively still maintain that use while doubling as the reinforcement point without negating either one's usefulness.

Now you're telling me that you didn't even care for that use and had no interest in building CC units (probably the biggest use of transports in the game), preferring instead to mass ranged firepower - which would entirely negate any danger of having your transport/reinforcement point be destroyed because you could indefinitely keep it behind your ranged squads. It would be well out of range from tankbustas, too, so you'd never even need to worry about it getting blasted.

So why did you bring up the first point if it was meaningless to you? Having transports as reinforcement points wouldn't gimp your army in the least, particularily if they have support abilities like smoke canisters or weapons like storm bolters - they could even make for an effective retreat method for your slower units if the time comes. It doesn't sound to me as if reinforcing through a transport "gimps" you in the battlefield as all - in fact it sounds like the only change would be a bit of resources spent to give your army a moderately effective support unit and cheaper/faster reinforcements.

I'm not sure I understand the trench warfare reference, either, because trench warfare is typically defensive, slow moving and stagnant. Since the main argument against reinforcement through bases/transports seems to be that it would slow things down (although I'm still not sure how, since transports can move faster than infantry) I find it rather bizarre that you'd be affectionate for a form of warfare that, according to many in this thread, would be encouraged by this mechanic.

I must be a little slow to catch on, 'cause this isn't making any sense to me whatsoever. :(

[Pseudonymn]

Why, in the name of the Emperor, WHY, do people insist on making this an argument about "believability" when we are talking about a game set to a FICTIONAL universe? WTF!

I, for one, enjoyed DoW's reinforcement mechanic. It was a brilliant breath of fresh air over the models used in contemporary games such as WC3, SC, CnC, etc. It kept the action going, it kept it visceral, it kept it bloody. You people who hold that changing the system we have to more limited methods and, further, insist that it won't slow down the game or slacken aggression do so solely on the basis of your own opinions. CoH is a slower game than DoW2 and I want none of it. If you prefer CoH mechanics, fine! Go play CoH. If you find coming back to DoW(2) so unbearable after having played CoH, fine! Leave it to the rest of us who still enjoy it. kkthxbai.

[DoW2]

Because the fiction follows standards it has set out itself?

Maybe Relic should put in Dwarves from the Iron Mountain's who sing tales of Golden Dragons while drinking brandywine?

[Pseudonymn]

So what... I deep strike my reinforcements in that I've held in reserve and they are attached (automatically) to a squad that I want to bring to full strength. I've used fluff mechanics - stayed true to the "standards that [the fiction] has set out itself" - and I've still got my in-field reinforcements. This whole deal about reinforcing at bases, APCs, or even strategic points exclusively on the basis that it is "more realistic" is utter bunk.

[Bufo802]

I like the tank shock idea, especially if it they make it harder to just charge cc units into massed firepower, or if maps were bigger + range of weapons increased.

[Silent]

I'm sorry if this all sounds a little snappy - I don't really intend it to be - but I'm really not sure I understand what our little dialogue went through just now.

Er. Sorry then.

First you complained that the only use you saw for transports was breaking the enemy line and that even that use would be negated if they allowed nearby squads to reinforce.

Then I counter with a scenario in which a transport could quite effectively still maintain that use while doubling as the reinforcement point without negating either one's usefulness.

Oh. I'd assumed that if you implemented the latter, then you couldn't do the former. Would make the transports OPed to those who care about balance and all. If you could, then the tactic would still work, but balance should always take precendence over fluff.

(Wait, now I'm getting confused. You're saying enemy units can reinforce using my Rhino? I'm going to assume 'nope'.)

Now you're telling me that you didn't even care for that use and had no interest in building CC units (probably the biggest use of transports in the game), preferring instead to mass ranged firepower - which would entirely negate any danger of having your transport/reinforcement point be destroyed because you could indefinitely keep it behind your ranged squads. It would be well out of range from tankbustas, too, so you'd never even need to worry about it getting blasted.

So why did you bring up the first point if it was meaningless to you?

Primarly to try and attack the idea of turning Rhinos into "reinforcement-points" from a different angle. While I don't care about the tactic, others may, and it is those other people who I was defending, I guess.

And no, I won't 'indefinetly' keep my ranged units, since then the enemy will just use CC, or just shoot off my dudes, and it will take a lot time for me to reinforce...assuming I actually do have the Requisition and the Power to actually reinforce.

And you also forget the fact that the Rhino can blow up. What happens if the Rhino blows up? I run.

Having transports as reinforcement points wouldn't gimp your army in the least, particularily if they have support abilities like smoke canisters or weapons like storm bolters - they could even make for an effective retreat method for your slower units if the time comes. It doesn't sound to me as if reinforcing through a transport "gimps" you in the battlefield as all - in fact it sounds like the only change would be a bit of resources spent to give your army a moderately effective support unit and cheaper/faster reinforcements.

It would likely gimp you in the fact that it will take up VC, and that if it get destroyed, you'll force units nearby it into a rout. And giving support weapons to transports sounds like they are being a bit too overpowered, though.

Oh, and there is one thing I wonder: Can you even get IN a transport? I doubt a transport can do that if you turn it into a reinforcement-point...and it might stretch belivability as well. How does DoW2 handle it via those half-tracks? It seems that you are seeing the whole "reinforcement-point" as a boon, while I'm seeing it as the only thing that the Rhino will be used for...and all its other powers get taken away.

I'm not sure I understand the trench warfare reference, either, because trench warfare is typically defensive, slow moving and stagnant. Since the main argument against reinforcement through bases/transports seems to be that it would slow things down (although I'm still not sure how, since transports can move faster than infantry) I find it rather bizarre that you'd be affectionate for a form of warfare that, according to many in this thread, would be encouraged by this mechanic.

Trench warfare=Human beings walking up to attack someone...and then mowed down by the enemy forces, but more humans then continue to walk up...and so-on-so-forth. Trench warfare may not be the right word. Human wave likely is. And you can't get less human than a metal box.

I must be a little slow to catch on, 'cause this isn't making any sense to me whatsoever.

We're already getting a bit away from the topic at hand. To put it bluntly, the reason I don't use that tactic of using CC, combined with tankbusters...is because I don't like using a Rhino. Even as a reinforcement-point, the idea of using a Rhino disgust me because it still isn't personal, and that the Rhino would easily break, forcing me to run to the nearby SP.
*******
Because the fiction follows standards it has set out itself?

So keep the existing mechanic. We already have a standard of units reinforcing using teleporation. We shouldn't stray from that standard then.

[Dark_Avenger]

Oh, and there is one thing I wonder: Can you even get IN a transport? I doubt a transport can do that if you turn it into a reinforcement-point...and it might stretch belivability as well. How does DoW2 handle it via those half-tracks? It seems that you are seeing the whole "reinforcement-point" as a boon, while I'm seeing it as the only thing that the Rhino will be used for...and all its other powers get taken away.


In CoH, the transports were there to transport and to reinforce

if you need a transport or an HQ to reinforce it only makes transports a more viable option then they are now.
its almost like the transport is the supplies for the front like, if you have it there while you fight, the better chances you have to win the fight.

If your tranport blows up then oh well, you continue fighting, it's not like CoH had a problem like this where you HAVE TO REINFORCE ALL THE TIME.

[TheLoneKnight]

I never indented to imply that reinforcement is all that Rhinos would be used for. I actually kinda hought my comment about using it to transport CC units to the front line indicated that you could load troops into it. In addition, Rhinos in the fluff/TT are typically outfitted with at least a couple of weapons (which I'm certain will appear in DoW2, in addition to their upgraded armour) and there's always the chance it will keep the smoke canisters from DoW so that it can give itself/your ranged units a defensive advantage against ranged attacks.

I'm still not sure why you believe the Rhino would easily break, though. If you're not using CC units for anything but holding off enemy CC units a transport doesn't need to carry them around; it can sit behind your line, staying just close enough for you to reinforce from it (if reinforcement in combat is even allowed). I can't imagine enemy AT units getting into range to blow up your Rhino unless they're in range of your missiles/plasma/heavy bolters/etc and a Rhino would presumably be able to back up quick enough to keep drawing them into your fire without sitting in range long enough for them to fire effectively.

The only other way you could get screwed by it is if they ambushed you with the AT units from the rear and in that case they may have earned the kill.