Belgium again without goverment???

[Dark_Axel]

BBC news; PM Yves Leterme offers his resignation (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7506640.stm)

Again it seems that Belguim is possibly soon again without an official goverment. Since it seems that the PM is unable to find a truce with Belgiums Flemish and Wallonian political parties for political reforms. It seems he put pressure on this issue by keeping his word and resign if no solution could be found. King Albert II has of yet not decided wether to accept the resignation of the goverment or decline it.

So it seems that this will bring Belgium again an inch towards falling apart. I say; three strikes and Wallonia is out?!
So, one chance remaining...

Since it is apart to me the Flemish want more recognition, and ofcourse the Wallons are a bit dependent on the Flemish region and don't want that. I'm wondering what their next move will be?
Any estimates on how long Belgium will hold together....
For a quick read-up on Belgium, read this thread (http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=174506)

[Kirjava]

Dear gods, not again. Have they got nothing better to do than have government crises?!? :p

[bottenbreker]

meh, who cares about our governement? in the very short period we've existed, howmuch good has our governement ever done? well, i blame the french-speaking politicians who are idiot, arrogant assholes only willing to accept something that's in their intrests.

[Ammon Ra]

Was bound to happen. Wallen/french speaking part boycott everything and the vlanderen/dutch speaking part won't concede anything.


well, i blame the french-speaking politicians who are idiot, arrogant assholes only willing to accept something that's in their intrests Isn't that politics in general though? ;p

[Tyconius]

Was bound to happen. Wallonia is the only Region in Europe to refuse more autonomy!

[LegionFlandern]

YES!
finally the gouvernment is down! and i hope its NOT coming up again, so the belgian monster construction can finally be laid to rest.

its too late but still better late than never.

We (Flanders) should become independant ASAP, so we can begin toi finally construct a WORKING society, not some french-ruled bureaucracy which has only one goal - keep the power & money in french hands...

did you know we have to spend every € twice in the belgian dictature? if we build a brodge in Flanders, we have to donate as much money to wallonia than that we spent for buidling that bridge... and this is for each and every scenario. just a small example on how quickly things get complicated here.

i REALLY hope Belgium will die & rot now.

we may form an indpendant republic/region and have a broad cooperation with the dutch which are our true brethren. not the walloon, despite all the fairytales in the state-controlled press

and away with the CGKR!!

well be FREE - w00t !

no sorrow here about a dying belgium. it just cant perish fast enough.

and brussels should become a european capital, paid & run by european bureaucrats, who the, hopefully, will see with their own eyes what their political correctness policy brings in large european cities - which i wont discuss here as i dont wanna derail this thread but suffice to say i dont want it.

[Moe]

I really like the unbiased posts in these political threads.

[Tyconius]

@Moe: The problems runs too deep for one not to be biased. Belgium is currently on its way to become a new Tsjechoslovakia. We have completely opposite opinions on how to run our country...

[TESB]

I wonder why they want to split, they end up in the EU anyway?

[Nurizeko]

I was gonna say, that would make the SNP blush, heh.


If Belgium is that un-salvageable, I don't see why Flanders doesn't just join up with the Netherlands and Walloon with France.


Depends if most Belgians feel the same as Legion though. I would imagine if being Belgian is important to most, that compromising and fostering a genuine Belgian identity over regional ones would be a top priority, otherwise why keep up the charade?.


I wonder why they want to split, they end up in the EU anyway?

Not while the good old confrontational Irish and meddling courts of democratic free states constantly throw a spanner into the works making a horrifically beautiful mess of the whole thing leaving the EU minded to shuffle around in a daze unsure of how to respond to this unforseen developement called free will and opposing point of view.

I would say the wanting to split kind of proves that Europe isn't really ready for the super state just yet, even though the idea an even bigger union will foster getting along where the smaller one failed is interesting reasoning.

[/politilol]

[Tyconius]

Basically, you have two forms of nationalism in Belgium

- Flemish-nationalism in which a Flemish republic is the goal.
- Belgian-nationalism, which the Walloons (and some Flemish) favor. This currently implies the return to a more unitarian Belgium (right now, we have several governments, federal and communial)

@Nuri: About the charade: Several things have to do with money. The Walloons currently get a lot of sponsering from Flanders. They benefit more from a unitarian Belgium, while Flanders wants more regional authority.

Roughly estimated, 1/3 of the Flemish is actually for independance, yet 95 % demands more regional autonomy.

[jorulius]

Ok I have to say not all Belgians feel like Legion, eventhough you could get that impression. The current problems are caused by nationalists on both sides who refuse to budge in order to look good with their respective electorate. I agree that there should be reforms etc. but the whole 'their taking our moneyz!' type of arguments directly regurgitated from nationalist politicians, mostly by people who never set foot in Wallonia except for their anual trip to the Ardens, annoy me greatly.

[Nurizeko]

The answer then would be for Flanders to stop giving Walloon so much money, and for Flanders to tell walloon that its giving itself more autonomy.

But that means allot of comprimise on Wallonia's part.

[jorulius]

Which is exactly the point, historically speaking Belgian politics was always about compromise. However some Flemmish politicians, went to the elections with great promises about how they where going to reform the governement and more autonomy for Flanders etc. without taking into account ( or rather they didn't care ) the fact that this would mean nothing but concessions from Wallonia.
So now we have Flemmish politicians who can't concede anything because that was what won them the elections for a large part, and Wallonian politicians who can only lose if they concede to the demands.

[Schwarzwald]

Less government the better IMO Government should protect freedoms have strong national defense look and take care of borders have a sound currency. Have protection of free markets and ability to trade with each other governments should not to run anyone's lives which many do today, So i applaud the Belgium's for not wanting a government as many of today have ''changed''

smaller government, less spending, less taxes, and more freedom and privacy for the individual is the best way for a government to interact imo.

[PacPomarnacki]

I cant say I have an intimate understanding of Belgian politics but last time I visited Brussels (in Febuary) There were Belgian flags hanging from almost every house which I'm told by the friend I was visiting meant that they supported a united Belgium and didnt want to see a territorial split. We walked for a good few hours sightseeing and all I saw was flags. So in my mind at least the capital is very pro unification. Although this of course could have changed since I was last there.

[Tyconius]

Yes, the capital is very much pro-Belgium. In fact, you'd have to make a difference between Walloons & people from Brussels. It's the Frenchspeaking aristocracy from Brussels that is refusing to speak Dutch in Flanders, which causes a lot of annoyance from the locals. They demand being served in French, if they are not they shout out that their freedom rights are being violated.

Which is exactly the point, historically speaking Belgian politics was always about compromise. However some Flemmish politicians, went to the elections with great promises about how they where going to reform the governement and more autonomy for Flanders etc. without taking into account ( or rather they didn't care ) the fact that this would mean nothing but concessions from Wallonia.
So now we have Flemmish politicians who can't concede anything because that was what won them the elections for a large part, and Wallonian politicians who can only lose if they concede to the demands.

Well said, although a minority cannot decide against the will of a majority. In Belgium, most of the time the minority decides what goes and what not.


Ok I have to say not all Belgians feel like Legion, eventhough you could get that impression. The current problems are caused by nationalists on both sides who refuse to budge in order to look good with their respective electorate. I agree that there should be reforms etc. but the whole 'their taking our moneyz!' type of arguments directly regurgitated from nationalist politicians, mostly by people who never set foot in Wallonia except for their anual trip to the Ardens, annoy me greatly.

I have no problem giving money to Wallonia in order to help rebuild their economy. But I do have a problem when they refuse to show us transparancy in the money transfers (yet over 40 years) and biting the hand that feeds (insulting us).

[bottenbreker]

Isn't that politics in general though? ;p

i would call it a biased opinion :p

The answer then would be for Flanders to stop giving Walloon so much money, and for Flanders to tell walloon that its giving itself more autonomy.

that was the plan. but the Walloons don't want to give up anything at all.

I have no problem giving money to Wallonia in order to help rebuild their economy. But I do have a problem when they refuse to show us transparancy in the money transfers (yet over 40 years) and biting the hand that feeds (insulting us).

i have nothing to add to this, this is exactly what i'm thinking.

and it's not just a problem about money. it's also a problem cause the Walloon politicians want to move a part of their border and "steal" some of our land.

I fear a new election will result in extremistic parties winning though, and that's not what we want. (well, not what i want atleast)

[LegionFlandern]

Ok I have to say not all Belgians feel like Legion, eventhough you could get that impression. The current problems are caused by nationalists on both sides who refuse to budge in order to look good with their respective electorate. I agree that there should be reforms etc. but the whole 'their taking our moneyz!' type of arguments directly regurgitated from nationalist politicians, mostly by people who never set foot in Wallonia except for their anual trip to the Ardens, annoy me greatly.

true; unfortunately, we have people like you as well, that have no compassion with their brethren that have to deal with the brussels problem every day - you nkow, that bilingual city where each and every one of the flemish is more or less obliged to speak french with their "bilingual" (muahahaha) french boss


I cant say I have an intimate understanding of Belgian politics but last time I visited Brussels (in Febuary) There were Belgian flags hanging from almost every house which I'm told by the friend I was visiting meant that they supported a united Belgium and didnt want to see a territorial split. We walked for a good few hours sightseeing and all I saw was flags. So in my mind at least the capital is very pro unification. Although this of course could have changed since I was last there.

off course; 90% of brussel is on unemployment and sucking of the tit of the belgian taxes, which is fueled by us, the flemish - off course they are pro-belgian - who else is gonna pay their welfare ?? brussels? wallonie? muahahaha gimme a break


Walking around in brussels, when the (flemish) commuters have gone home, is like walking around in Casablanca, which is being paid with our tax money (over 50% taxes here) and you have to be careful NOT to say anything that they dont even speak ducth - you could get sued by a special instance that is only alive to fight "racism & discrimination" - but only if its from Flemish side - french papers can write that, for example, all members of political party X should be executed - no problem.

you see, this the way you get from working in the capital - you either become a revolutionary, or you become indoctrinated by the belgian view (we are all equal, but some are receivers and the flemish should pay & stfu)

Which is exactly the point, historically speaking Belgian politics was always about compromise. However some Flemmish politicians, went to the elections with great promises about how they where going to reform the governement and more autonomy for Flanders etc. without taking into account ( or rather they didn't care ) the fact that this would mean nothing but concessions from Wallonia.

get your facts straight homeboy. the splitting of district BHV is a mandatory constitutional LAW, which should have been carried out years ago.
now we wont wait any longer, and gues what? the french want to have flemish territory for carrying out the law... thats what this is about. or do you think its normal that we have mayors in flemish cities that REFUSE to speak dutch?? that bring in the EU council to see how "their human rights are being violated "?

on whos side are you on anyway? because for me belgium means oppression, non-working gouvernments, hassle about nothing and a whole lot of energy that is being put ni lingual issues that could have been used for serious things - just for thzt reason alone we need to separate

and then i havent even spoken about the pro-french king that cant even speak proper dutch or his queen that never even bothered to elarn the language of 6.000.000 of her subjects

how's that for a fuck you?

remember the famous words of Charles Rogier : " La Belgique sera latine ou elle sera pas" (belgium will be french or will not be at all).. thats how the powers that be think my friend, and thanks to people like me we now have the right to speak dutch, since a good 90 years of the 180 that belgium exists

know your history.

[Tyconius]

The part about the Frenchspeakers claiming Flemish ground is true. They reason: "hey, most of us speak French and not Dutch, so we can leave Flanders and join a commune where they speak French". Keep in mind that a good 20 years ago, the people who lived there used to speak Dutch. So those Frenchspeakers are not a historical minority, they just chose not to adapt.

[Radical]

I say let the Germans have them, at least they'll settle this in a manner fair to both sides (you won't be forced to speak Dutch or French - you can use German!).

[Dark_Axel]

Watching the Belgium news from the Netherlands, it does seems that Belgium does realizes for the first time that a split is indeed inevitable if no progress is made. I must say that King Albert II does a good job of holding it together. But I wonder if things already past the point of no return, seeing some Flemish and Wallonian newspapers and the support of the political movements who support a split (on both sides).

I also think that part of the problem lies within the French speaking culture and their conservative ways; never give up, never adept/submit attitude. *cough* remember the Glory that once was France [for a very short while...] and [NEVER] will be again, fortunatly.

Anyway, as far as I know the (conservative) Wallonians, they have always pushed things to the limit. And now they see that the risk of loosing all is a real possibility, they are bound to concede on a few point to keep it together. [although they will never admit it, they now they are more dependent on the Flemish, then the Flemish are of them]

Note;
Of the 5 political Belgium political parties which formed the current goverment. Only 1 features multiple languages on their homepage.
So yeah, what more can be said about the language barrier when people almost refuse to speak another language on official/communitave levels.
Open VLD - Flemish party (http://www.vld.be/) NL FR DE UK
Christian Democratic and Flemish (http://www.cdenv.be/) only NL
Reformist Movement (French speaking party) (http://www.mr.be/) only FR
Socialist Party (French speaking party) (http://www.ps.be) only FR
Humanist Democratic Centre - Wallonian party (http://www.lecdh.be/) only FR

[bottenbreker]

well, the Walloons pushed it. and now they're sorry they pushed it. they're scared all right. and probably for good reasons.

[LegionFlandern]

The part about the Frenchspeakers claiming Flemish ground is true
the rest is true as well you know....

[Tyconius]

Watching the Belgium news from the Netherlands, it does seems that Belgium does realizes for the first time that a split is indeed inevitable if no progress is made. I must say that King Albert II does a good job of holding it together. But I wonder if things already past the point of no return, seeing some Flemish and Wallonian newspapers and the support of the political movements who support a split (on both sides).


King Albert does what he is told by the Walloons.

Of the 5 political Belgium political parties which formed the current goverment. Only 1 features multiple languages on their homepage.
So yeah, what more can be said about the language barrier when people almost refuse to speak another language on official/communitave levels.


The cartel-partner of the CD&V, the NVA (separatist party), also has their site in different languages:

http://www.n-va.be/

the rest is true as well you know....

I'm not saying it's not.


Here's a nice video which sketches why we have an anti-Belgian (separatist) movement:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExbOlSlq6CE&eurl=http://blog.seniorennet.be/angeltjes/