War: The secret attraction

[jetfx]

War. It is denounced by the majority of people as bad and destructive. Yet it is still glorified and celebrated by culture, the media, etc. My question stands as what makes us almost attracted to war, not why we do it, but why do we feel this need for battle, yet at the same time we talk of its horrors?

From the year or so I have been here, I have come to know you guys as generally peaceniks, yet ironically we are united here because we all played a particular war game(Homeworld). And I know many of you enjoy games of this type, just as I do.

My self, I am against war in our society, I want our society to be peaceful, yet I really enjoy playing games of military strategy. I read books of war strategy, and read about all the great wars throughout history. Yet still I denouce war. I enjoy war movies, yet I would never join the army to support a military solution (unless Canada was invaded, I would fight in defense). I don't understand why as humanity we are fasicnated by war yet we denounce it, does anyone have some ideas on this?

[Mexican_Taiidan]

Almost all the people like war (games, movies, storys) but the question is.......

Would you or Could you kill another human because you are in a war????

Oh and about the Why do go to war???
Is because WE can do it, and know what is war......

IF the Human race didnt know about war they would be doing something else.

[SquidDNA]

Blowing things up and killing things is kind of cool. I think we're inclined (not required) to think that, as a species. At the risk of making a very weak argument, humans grew up hunting and making fires. No, not all of us, but many. War happens to be the ultimate in hunting and killing and making fires (and shiny new tools.) Yes, it's terrible, but in my own opinion some of us can't help but enjoy it when "sanitized" to remove the death and suffering and loss.

Re: Mex Taiidan, to mangle Vaarok's favorite, "If war did not exist it would be necessary to invent it." I have a hard time believing that War was an original thought that someone had, and if we didn't know about war we wouldn't practice it.

I'd rather there wasn't war, but the battlefield is no place for Pacifism. You're fighting for your ideals, but you're also fighting for your life out there. I'd likely feel terrible, I'd likely never quite recover, but I would kill to survive if forced to fight.

[oneredpanther]

I never did psychology but my take on it is this:

Most people are probably fascinated by war because most people are never in one. Most people fascinated by wars they've never been in are probably male. The modern Male mindset is a derivative of that of the hunting alpha-male primitive ancester. As a result, most men are fascinated by epic-scale demonstrations of power, aggression and victory over any 'rival' counterparts. Nowhere is this primitive urge for supremacy satisfied better than on the battlefield.

I'm a peaceful soul who just tries to get along, but I can't deny that my balls are telling me there's something stupdendously brilliant about the sound of a Spitfire, a Cruiser pounding a shoreline or the aliens destroying New York in Independence Day.

Destruction on enormous scales and all the might that goes with it is just wired to be great in the male mind.

BOOM!

Edit: damn you Squid for beating me while i was still typing!

[Edric O]

Note that very few people who actually experienced war still like it. We enjoy war games quite simply because we don't have a single damn clue about what it's like to fight in a real war.

Humans are attracted to excitement and adventure. And it just so happens that war is being protrayed by the media as one great adventure where the bad guys always lose and the good guys come out alive and victorious. That is, of course, utterly childish. War is a messy, ugly business full of blood and death. There are no such things as heroes in modern warfare. Nothing ever gets done by one crazy lone adventurer. In war, lives are always expendable.

[mrmin123]

my father always used to lecture to me how war is bad, but it was in a man's blood to fight war, and half the time you can't help it. :o

[Vaarok]

I use that quote often enough for it to be a favorite. Huh.

Anyway, Starship Troopers:

Any species that decides it ain't a gonna' study war no more, very quickly (about next tuesday) some more agressive species that still can is gonna show up and wipe us out.

Species, culture, ethnic group, ideology. All the same.

And my grandfather gave me a sensible instruction regarding warfare. Avoid it, but when necessary embrace it to the fullest. Then again, he volunteered for commando operations all through the pacific war as part of the Royal British Marines.

[The5thElephant]

I have noticed too just how much we love things where we get to watch war scenes or explosions or fighting and then in the back of our minds ridicule all the men who get war flashbacks etc thinking 'I could've taken that'. But the simple fact that so many people who experience real war hate it and have terrible memories shows that it isn't such a glorious thing as we might like to think.

That is why I prefer to watch the amazing scene of the attack on Zion in a movie theater than be one of the brave men sitting in one of those hulking APU's shooting down countless sentinels and then most likely dying a horrible death. And that is just to use an example from a fictional movie.

:elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant:

[Starfisher]

I add to panth and Squid's commentary that many see war as a challenge, and try to forget the whole killing aspect of it. I was in Army ROTC for a year (got medically disqualified after a year in :( ), and few of the people there conciously wanted to prove their supremacy or kill anyone. Half of them were in it for the money and weren't going to branch combat ops, so they would have ended up mostly seperated from physical conflict altogether. The other half, the guys who went to Airborne school, talked about being a Ranger and etc, always spoke about their accomplishments and aspirations from the approach of "Can I do this?"

The undeniable boyish glee that comes from handling and firing a weapon, or assaulting a position in the middle of a firefight definately factors in. If you are in the right mindset, training like that is incredibly exhilirating and fun. Its why paintball is growing so rapidly in the states: When no one dies, running around shooting stuff is great. The more 'hardcore', the better - the closer you think you are to the real thing, the more alive and excited you feel.

When the rounds being fired aren't blank, then the fun is almost certainly removed. I wouldn't know, as I haven't been in combat and it isn't something that can be approximated. However, I can take my training experiences and imagine what it would be like if instead of my laser tag vest beeping I had my arm shot off, and from that image I can deduce that combat is not fun.

So yes, war is an extension of our animal need to dominate. But it is also a source of excitement in a world where we are rarely if ever challenged physically, or put in a situation where we might die. Everyone likes to think they would act the hero when they get thrown into a survival situation, but they never really know. War is our way of testing ourselves, horrible as it is.

Human nature can suck, but thems the breaks.

[Mexican_Taiidan]

quote:
-------------------------------------
By SquidDNA :

I'd rather there wasn't war, but the battlefield is no place for Pacifism. You're fighting for your ideals, but you're also fighting for your life out there. I'd likely feel terrible, I'd likely never quite recover, but I would kill to survive if forced to fight.
-------------------------------------

Yeah and the other guy is fighting for his ideals to, fighting to survive and go home to his family, wishing for the war to end, Why are we fighting for??? Is it really worth it?? The enemy is fighting for a reason to....... but.....but...... Who is right and wrong??? What side is supposed to win for the better???......

Nothing really matters, bodys of my comrades falling, crying for help, dying in the most horrible way, I can image the same thing is happening to the enemy. This is hopples, if we win, new wars will come to us and we will fight again and again the circle of pain and death will repeat it self…

For what reason....... Just because "they" are different from us....

[Starfisher]

So you would let your country be invaded rather than fight? Most people would fight to defend their homes and families. I don't understand your point... yes, war is horrible. That's why there is such a huge outcry against it whenever one starts. But if Canada became the next Nazi germany and invaded your country, would you sit there and cry about how war is terrible while they ethnically cleansed everyone?

[Vaarok]

Huh. My joking excuse for always wanting to purchase a Dragunov rifle was "some day, when the canadians come over that hill..."

There's a quote by Benjamin Frankling in Call of Duty that I cannot recall but follows the basic "bad guys win when good guys don't do anything" argument, except eloquent and had some slant...

[AgentSmithy]

Pacisfism, peace, it's what we like to call "bullshit that will not happen in the next millenia". As long as free will exists, war will exist. Why? Because conflict and arguments over ideals, land, what have you, lead to violence. Well, at least it did. Today is a different place. War to protect allies that may or may not be attacked/protecting financial interests, war to stop genocide. Peace? No such thing. There will always be war, and it's definitely not because of primal instincts or "male urge to dominate" or whatever. And most of you are talking about war as if it's still the 1940s. I personally spoke with Spc. Dale Sizemore (a Ranger that fought during the Battle of Mogadishu) and had a short email exchange Lt. Col. Daniel McKnight, and the wars of today aren't what you guys seem to think they are. No, I've never been in actual combat, but the fact of the matter is, most of our [US] soldiers enlist because they want a more fast paced lifestyle, an exciting job, pay for college etc. The one thing that struck me as unusual (because of everything I knew about war) was that when (during the Battle of Mogadishu) a soldier shot a Somali, they did it without compuncture. Why? In that situation, it's down to either your life or his. No time to think about it, just stick with your team, remember your training, and make sure you don't get yourself shot. The main psychological trauma came from watching their best friends getting shot and bleeding to death. I've thought about what I would do in that situation if it were my friends out in the fight and me back in safety, and I would go out to the fight in a second, because the trauma for me would be more if I didn't do anything about it.

[Mexican_Taiidan]

I can see the border… finally I can escape from this madness…. I can go home and see my wife, my daughter and son…. I can’t stop the war fighting it, but…… I can stop by knowing the reason, the cause of this stupid war and find another way of resolving this conflict………..

A soldier appears from nowhere, he spotted me…. Oh god no…… it’s the enemy… not now, when I almost……. The enemy is in front of the border I just need to cross the river, but I don’t have any bullets, nor the strength to fight him……..

Oh shit….. I thought that crossing the river was the hard part…… but now I have to kill him, with what??? My gun is stuck and useless and behind him is my country just some more meters……

The two of them standing still, with there rifles pointing in the ground, they could go hand to hand combat kill the guy and go home…….. but……. Does the other guy……….. Wants to fight??? Is he really…?? Going to fight and kill??? They are humans; they are the same, with families, friend’s maybe a son or two….. fighting a war that the government started for a reason that few understands……..

The two of them smiled, then starting to laugh at there stupidity, they toss there weapons away and run to there countries and didn’t matter anything else, didn’t looked back, knowing they only wanted to go home………. And stop the war there………

[SquidDNA]

Someone who goes AWOL in the midst of conflict isn't likely to have sufficient political voice to resolve the conflict by peaceful means. I can see that you put a lot of feeling into your fiction there, but it fails. I hope I never see combat, but damn if I would abandon people who depended on me for their lives because I didn't want to kill. The place for conscientious objection is before deployment. Go sit in the brig if you don't want to fight; that's fine, but the battlefield is not the place for doubts.

[Starfisher]

Smithy: You don't think that soldiers want a faster paced life than because of their animal natures? I sure do: it was the major factor in me joining ROTC. It was for most of the other guys I knew in the battalion as well. Hell, when we went to Ft. Drum a couple of times, most soldiers we talked too said they joined for the sense of action.

Nothing is as shallow as that. You long for action because inside of you is an animal that takes pleasure in the hunt, and because you get addicted to the rush. Indeed, most soldiers don't think about what they do while they're in combat: The few I talked to who fought in the Gulf War said that you're not thinking in combat, you're fighting. You start thinking afterwards, and that's when you start wondering along the same lines as others in this thread. I don't see what you mean with that 1940's comment... war, in the sense that you have to kill others to accomplish a mission, remains unchanged.

[Handarazuur]

War is bad.

[jpaugh78]

War, what is it good for? Absolutely nothing!!!

[Mnementh]

I like it for the explosions, the technological advancements, and the destruction of things.

Possibly why I love Nov 5th round here. Give me a night vision camera and ill show you more than "shock and awe" for a fraction of the cost.

[Mexican_Taiidan]

You dont have to kill to win a war.

There are other ways to win..........

[spokehead]

"No poor bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other oor bastard die for his"
-General Patton

War is not the best way of solving things and it definitely ain't the prettiest.

[SquidDNA]

It's not a war without killing. A conflict without killing can be a competition, or a conflict. But it isn't a war.

[Vaarok]

"War is the continuation of politics by other means"

[AntaresSITH]

just did some brainstorminga about this, so the following sentences my not be connected to eachother.

-war is evolution or better it is replacing parts of evolution.
the basics of war are like evolution: survival of the fittest (whatever that means in human terms)

-instead of being killed by nature, we kill each other.

-war is still the most powerful engine of technological development.

-war fits best into the male thinking of fighting and prevailing... to show how "potent" u are... being the best... or just being better than somebody else.

-some guys (yes .. again male here) are facinated by the toys used in war, e.g. tanks, planes... they arent a lot about what those "toys" are used for, they are just facinated by the potential of them.

-war is just like a fray in front of a disco. again showing whos is the better, stronger or what ever. in that fray both opponents my get a scar or get a bone broken. in a larger war-like scale some humans have to die instead.

-war is easy... its one of our natural basics. thats why everybody understands it and everybody works (in some way) towards it.

[ionfish]

I'm sorry to have to break the news to you, Antares, but some of your views are simply idiotic. An artillery barrage does not choose its targets. It doesn't matter whether you're Einstein or just some hick from the sticks, you've got pretty much an equal chance when you're exposed in the open and enemy shells are falling all around you. Survival of the fittest? Try survival of the luckiest.

[sub]

The problem is that as long as the human race is not united as one with the same beliefs and ideals, we will always be inclined to wage war on one another.

Someone basically summed up the paradox of war in one post: we may be fighting for what we believe is right so that we can go back home to our families and live in peace and happiness for the rest of our lives, but so is the other side.

I may sound pessimistic, but the truth is that human life without a higher meaning is futile. Fighting for a cause all your life accomplishes nothing, because as long as we are divided, as long as we are imperfect, and as long as there are nations no matter how peaceful, there will always be war. That's the indeniable truth.

The only war I would ever participate in would be a war to end all wars. A war that I was sure would bring about world peace. A war that gets to the true root of human evil, one that only removes those deserving to be removed. Of course, such a war is irrational and unrealistic. But until that day comes, I'd rather remain neutral.

[Vaarok]

Antares is not idiotic. Simply incomplete in his theory. He proposes social darwinism and such, simply failing to ascribe it to a sufficiently incomprehensible scale and from the wrong direction. Nature does not care about quality or quantity, only what does not work, which is then culled either by overt action or simply by being outstripped by the more sucessful.

The artillery barrage metaphor is woefully too small a scale.


And:

Starship Troopers

Everyone should read it. And not like this guy (http://www.digitalwebbing.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=38142&pagenumber=4).

[ISD]

War: The secret attraction

Apart from human nature to fight, it is also hype up by movies and media.

As long as I can remember, I've been watching war movies since I was in diapers. All those John Wayne and Robert Mitchem war movies. They who go to war are potrayed as heroes, more often than not they emerge as heroes. All we see are just the heroes, what about the one's that got shot or amputated ?? And as a kid I have always wanted to be in the military especially a fighter pilot.

I can still remember the movie battle of midway, where they use original live footage and merge it with acting. The part I remember most was a Jap. Kamikaze diving on a US carrier, then as a kid I would think aawww .... ccooolllll.....
Now as I watch it again I get goose bumps and my hair all over my back, neck and hands stands up. And I ask myself
" I wonder how many people died there ?? ".

All the accounts I heard from war veterens and my grandparents who have actually experience REAL WAR is that it is a no mans land. Of course we have to factor in the human ego also. Those desk generals who doesn't actually have to fight will defend
their ego by giving excuses to start a war, and those young brain washed kids out there who think battle is glorious will comply.

I'm not saying I wouldn't fight for my country though, but give me a real reason to fight. I have learn martial arts for the past 11 years and I know how a man will stand up for his ego, but if a man doesn't know the right from the wrong then you know what will happen.

For those who are not brought up by war movies they are the ones that are protesting against war or are living a peaceful
live in a small town and has nature as their everyday television.

If we have these people to run our country then we'd have no war, but then again if we are attack we'd have no weopons.
As long as there are living beings there will be war.

Last of all, as a human civilization we have always been artistic. Whether the art of communication, designs, or the art of walking, we are a society of artists. That is why when I see fighters breaking formation and diving on an enemy or a battleship opens up with all guns it has a certain beauty to it. Just look at a fighter formation, it's a design. And when they break formation as a group it is an art. That is another factor for the attraction of combat. And I know many people feel this, they just don't know why.

Next time when you watch a war movie, especially Saving Private Ryan, just find a person in that movie and pretend thats you
while storming the beaches and you'll get a feeling of going to war.

" When old peopl starts war, it is the young who will die ". - Star Wars - Black Fleet Crises. :num:

[SquidDNA]

I don't think a person with half a soul honestly enjoyed the first fifteen minutes of Saving Private Ryan. It was horrible, but riveting because of the truth of its horror.

[jpaugh78]

Was that the part where those poor bastards were dying before they even got out of those transport boats? That part was very horrible. I had to look the other way...... :fright:

[Vaarok]

Can't say I enjoyed it, but given that it was an accurate depiction of a stupendous failure...

See the same slaughter scale on Sword or Gold beach?

[SquidDNA]

I don't so much know about failure Vaarok.. they took the coast, and we're largely still (as cultures) speaking the language of our choice. ;) Seriously, I don't know enough history to appreciate the Normandy beaches as failures. Can you explain?
It seems to me that there wasn't much of a better alternative than to send boatloads of infantry to take what was a relatively defensible shoreline.

I know I'm a day late on this, but my take on Rememberance Day / Veteran's Day / Armistice Day has not been to glorify war, but to understand and appreciate its horror, and further to honor the noncombatants who were affected, and moreso the people who chose to go to fight, knowing the horror in advance.
There's a war memorial in Jackson, MS. There's a building with a kind of a courtyard, bordered by columns, with a tomb and a half-staff flag in the center. Around the top of the interior of the courtyard is inscribed the words:

HOW SWEET MUST BE THE PEACE THE HEROES FIND /
WHEN CRUSCADE ENDED DEATH HAS BORNE THEM HOME /
HOME TO GOD WHO MADE THEIR SOLDIERS HEARTS /
BEAT WITH ZEAL TO RIGHT SATANIC WRONGS.

It's a highly idealized statement-- in the best case, a nation has gone to war because an educated populace has demanded that a wrong perpetrated by an aggressor be righted, and that the aggressor be silenced. But there were people on any side in any conflict who have believed this was the case, and found Hell on Earth, and often died. It's this nobility of spirit which is too tragic to forget.

[AgentSmithy]

Stupendous failure!? What the hell are you talking about?? D-Day was the fucking REASON that the war ended. Saying otherwise is an insult to those that fought and died there.

ISD: Wars of today aren't like storming Omaha Beach. You think you're gonna get a chance to punch a Nazi in the face while dodging artillery fire, that's not what's going to happen. Precision strikes against enemy positions, lightning quick smash and grab rescue/abduction operations, these are the battles that are fought today. Battles fought at a distance, with specialized teams of soldiers mopping up the leftovers.

The same thing goes for the 'other side' fighting to go home and see their families. We're fighting fanatics today, people that will strap C4 to their chest and blow up a school yard. They're fighting for ideals, but they sure as hell aren't aiming to go home and see their families and homes again.

[SquidDNA]

Smithy, it's quite arguable that strategic bombing from the West coupled with a rapidly worsening Eastern front would have ended the European theatre in the Allies' favor anyway. Many people hold this view.

[Homdax]

jpaugh78:
Relax dont do it

[Homdax]

well, lets see if I risk getting this locked...I wouldnt want to.

WAR: Killing fellow man for this or that reason.
Sure, no problem. We good, they bad. No?

WAR: Science and technology (war related) evolves faster?
Yes I think that has been verified.

WAR: Survival of the fittest?
No, since it could end with a political treaty.

WAR: Killing of innocent people in vane?
Not if any SOLDIER could avoid it.

WAR: Evolution of the species?
Well, the winning side tend to claim that, but who knows until a number of years later...

[jpaugh78]

Originally posted by HOMEAgain!
jpaugh78:
Relax dont do it
Ummmm, what are you talking about? Did you mean to post this to your other thread??? :wtf2:

[Homdax]

ehmmm... no
You quoted Frankie goes to Hollywood.
I followed up....
Originally posted by jpaugh78
War, what is it good for? Absolutely nothing!!!

or...?

[jpaugh78]

Okay, feel really dumb now. I used to watch the show "Seinfeld" on NBC. One of the main characters was interviewing this person who wrote a book about war. She told him something about that wasn't true and he threw her electronic organizer out the window of the vehicle they were in. She sang the first part of that song "War, what is good for? Absolutely Nothing!". I didn't know if it was a real song....and if it was, didnt' know the words. :lol:

[jetfx]

As someone pointed out earlier, that war is a form of evolution, they were correct, but the principle was applied to too small a case. War is the evolution of human societies. The weak ones are destroyed, while the strong ones dominate. Survival of the fittest society, not individual.

Smithy pointed out that warfare today is different than warfare in WWII. That is incorrect. Worrld War 2 essentially laid down the basics of modern convential warfare, technology today has just improved upon these basics. The spitfire became the F-16, the tiger became the M-1 Abrams, bombs became guided, and war became slightly more faceless and sterile.

After reading all these, I would suppose our desire for war stems from, the sense of victory. If yu have ever fought with your siblings over something as silly as a chair (etc). You know this chair is no more comfortable than any other in the room, it is just the sense of possesion and winning that make you do it. War is ingrained in us from our primordial days, it has just evolved like everything else.

[ISD]

Uuummm.... isn't this the thread of The Secret attraction to war??

Not to start an argument here AgentSmithy

"ISD: Wars of today aren't like storming Omaha Beach. You think you're gonna get a chance to punch a Nazi in the face while dodging artillery fire, that's not what's going to happen. Precision strikes against enemy positions, lightning quick smash and grab rescue/abduction operations, these are the battles that are fought today. Battles fought at a distance, with specialized teams of soldiers mopping up the leftovers."


This only happens if you're fighting a poorly armed enemy. If it were to fight an equally match enemy, with counter to every arsenal you have, marines and infantry must be send in to try and take over the enemy strong hold.

:fencing:

[Jao Ensatsu Ken]

I don't actually like the PROSPECT of real war, because on the battlefield, it's horrible. People get shot in the head, theres blood everywhere, people get BLOWN UP, and all terrible sorts of things. After all, they are humans just like us, no matter how f@&#ed up they are or if they want to kill all Jewish people for the sake of Aryan-ness.

HOWEVER, I love playing war games (excluding those extra-extra graphic and gorey games) and I think lots of weapons are cool (mmm....AIM-54 Pheonix). I like studying about different war crafts and weapons, as well as studying war strategy, but I absolutely hate actual WAR.

The nature of how the universe works ensures that just about everything has to fight for something, and war is no different. I just wish there was no real wars.