FC iron halo and WL shield, too powerful?

[cyborgZero]

Both the force commander and warlock have a very powerful shield, maybe a little too powerful.

The FC iron halo allows him to regenerate while it is activated, I suggest it to be changed to become similar to the Zoan, where once activated, it will not allow mana regeneration. That is similar to cloaking, but cloaking actually drains mana.

The warlock has a type of armor which withstands a crapload of beating, it doesnt make sence when I have two level 3 sluggas, 1 level 4 shoota, and my commando shottong the crap out of him and nothing huts him.

What are your thoughts about this?

[Latias418]

I think it could potentially be a balance issue. I've seen a lot of use of these abilities, and it's absolutely ridiculous how much punishment they can take. Nearly every time I'm up against it I feel the enemy commander is pretty much impossible to kill. On the other hand, it denies any serious usage of other abilities, due to sucking up energy to absorb damage.

[Goobers]

I'm surprised you missed the Hive Tyrant. Not only does it have the highest health of any hero, can't be knocked down or suppressed, but it also has an energy shield in T1.

That and its health synapse doesn't need energy to use.


The Hive Tyrant is the bane of my existence.

[Latias418]

Goobers has a very good point, I'm going to have play a game or three to try it out. Oddly, I've never seen a Tyrant using it, even when I did a 3v3 with some friends and ran up into an organized team that all used heroes with fast energy shields (god damn that was annoying).

[cyborgZero]

I see that you guys HAVE faced this sort of wargear, and I have to affirm that it really has to be fixed, as it makes certain commander godly.

So suggestions: no mana regeneration while the ability is used.

[LandShark]

use energy sapping skills, like the orbs that the techmarine gets. he will instantly deplete thier shield.

also flamers drain shields very quickly.

[Goobers]

Meh, on everything it is a trade off.

Force Commander for example.
You could have the banner or the teleporter. The Banner gives a damage buff to everything around him, and the teleporter allows for untold shenanigans.


I would much rather my FC magically appearing in the middle of the opponents army with his battlecry boosted banhammer than being tougher and having to walk the whole way.



The Force Commander and the Warlock shields are fine I feel, for the same reason Latias418 said, they have abilities that need using. They Tyrant is the odd one out because his abilities are passive so the shield is pure boon and I can't work out why no-one uses it. Probably so they can fast tech to Carnifexes or something.

[whatsleft]

yea, its not just a potential balance issue, its a problem especially in 3v3s, lolhalos force commander can break any defensive points easily, even if its just the 2 of them.

imo iron halos takes damage only by the quantity, not quality. that is to say, having 200000000 troops firing at it is somewhat effective at taking out the thunder hammer, while a single warboss does not do much to it; and by 20000000000000 troops, i mean ur whole army.

[Latias418]

I would much rather my FC magically appearing in the middle of the opponents army with his battlecry boosted banhammer than being tougher and having to walk the whole way.

Agree with this.

Warlock... I don't think his other accessories are as good, but he still has the AoE abilities left to use.

Hive Tyrant has the best. His other accessories are subpar at best, and he has no abilities to use energy for except for certain wargear.

EDIT: Because I forgot Warlock got his e shield from an armour upgrade, not an accessory. That changes much, as once he hits t3 he gets his Providence Armour.

[Aquila]

Honestly I don't think it's much of an issue. Late game the shields don't stand up to much heavy firepower, and that extra damage is crucial in the early stages to even survive the Tyranid and Ork fast attack troops. Force Commander does not have the defensive and healing abilities of the other heroes... his shield is really the only thing he has to survive the zerg rush.

I would ask you to try to see it from the other point of view. Play a warlock and a force commander against an aggressive Ork and Tyranid player and see how you do without the shield. Then we'll talk about imbalance.

On the Hive Tyrant its a different story. Fortunately, he can't use bio-plasma if he's got the shield, which makes your defensive troops much more viable. One small blessing I suppose. Hive Tyrants don't scare me nearly as much as Adrenal Gland warriors anyway.

[Pellucid]

Warlock has a weapon that drains energy from people he hits and gives it to him. He's basically invulnerable in melee with said weapon and shield up.

[Darktau]

I am on the fense for the FC and Warlock.

The FC when I face him with Warp Spider Exarch I wish he could not regenerate energy as I have a tough time with that Sheild and end up forceing a retreate by takeing heavy losses routing the rest of his army before focuse firing on the FC. When I play the FC agenst Nids, Orcs, melee based Marines that halo with the energy regen is needed to allow my balanced force to set up.

The Warlock I dont have much experiance with so I wont comment on him.

[ViS]

The WL's spear no longer gives him the drained energy. He DOES have Heart of Darkness, though which recharges his energy with a medium cooldown and a damage requirement.

I consider it apt considering how much Eldar absolutely NEED their Imbalock to remain SOMEWHAT competitive. I was playing one of the top 'Nids earlier and just got slaughtered even though I outplayed him in every game. The only thing that deterred him was my Invincilock mauling Warriors and spamming AOE against Gaunts.

[Brenil]

I consider it apt considering how much Eldar absolutely NEED their Imbalock to remain SOMEWHAT competitive. I was playing one of the top 'Nids earlier and just got slaughtered even though I outplayed him in every game. The only thing that deterred him was my Invincilock mauling Warriors and spamming AOE against Gaunts.

I can attest to a lower skill equalivent match where I played a TS 29 (I'm 17 atm) Tyranid player with the Lictor and I was grudglingly using the Warlock. In my opinion I at least stayed on eveng ground with him and straightout played him in a few skirmishes; but his ability to keep mass producing Rippers to gain map control, Warriors that obliterated my upgraded Banshees and shrugged off plasma grenades and absolutely demolished my Wraithlord (the same Warriors did all that, yes), lead to him gaining an edge on the ecomony and eventually gaining complete map control.

The Warlock was the only thing that made it somewhat competitive and I wasn't even using the shield. If I had used it, I don't think it would of made any difference. If I had used my normal hero (the Farseer) it would of been over before it began.

ViS is absolute correct, right now as it is, in 1vs1 Ladder, the Warlock (who is questionably unbalanced) is the only thing keeping us competitive... even then it's alot of work.

I agree the FC's Ironhalo is somewhat... questionable, mainly because the FC doesn't really use energy for anything else, therefore he can keep this on indefinately and basically have two health bars at the loss of... well not much.

[Pellucid]

When a single unit is the only thing keeping you competitive, that unit is definitively overpowered. Of course, any nerf to said unit should come with corresponding buffs to other units, but said unit should certainly be nerfed.

Also, you can't really use Tyranids as a barometer for the power level of a race, since they're bursting at the seams with OP right now.

[Aquila]

He DOES have Heart of Darkness
Only charges if you're taking damage, which you won't be if you're using the shield. The shield will go down and you won't be able to get it back up until you've taken quite a beating. Even then, you don't really get all that much energy. Not a big problem really.

I agree the FC's Ironhalo is somewhat... questionable, mainly because the FC doesn't really use energy for anything else, therefore he can keep this on indefinately and basically have two health bars at the loss of... well not much.
Are you kidding me? Have you ever used a Force Commander? Not being able to use Battlecry HURTS. Especially once you get that Thunderhammer... it's a VERY significant tradeoff.

[ViS]

HoD still charges one damage taken to the shield. Have you played as the WL?

[Aquila]

It does? I didn't notice that, I take it back then. I've used him before, won 6 or 7 games, but they were team games and never really decided by the warlock so it didn't really feel overpowered to me.

[Compeador]

I've seen them used but just treated them as higher-hp heroes and avoided them. Or used energy draining weapons like the warlock spear, flame weapons, etc etc. I can see where it'd be tough to avoid them with pure CC armies and in 1v1 hero fights. Tbh I never have used the Warlock's orb, I'll give it a try in a few games tonight.

So in essence I'm not sure if I think they're imba or not. I'll have to use them vs other players first and see if the tradeoff of energy-using abilites is worth the extra HP.

[Ap0k]

Moving to balance issues.

[Pathen]

If all heroes have it- would it not then be a trademark of the "Offensive" heroes?

[Brenil]

It would, except all heros are not created equal. Despite the loss of Battlecry, the FC doesn't lose near as much as a Warlock does when he's out of energy.

[Steel*Faith]

I've fought many FC with this setup now, and I can counter it fairly easily. Warboss with Powerclaw, & spikey armor is a nice counter, especially with "Use Yer Choppaz!" and "Ard Boyz". Not to mention the many other ways orks have to fight him in melee.

YES the FC becomes a tough target, but not an impossible target to kill.

[Compeador]

I've played quite a few people using this now. Probably because they read on the forums somewhere that the hammer sprint and halo combo was "unbeatable." He becomes a nuisance that I have to keep knocked down or distracted, but hardly gamebreaking. The loss of using battlecry is a big hit. Energy-draining weapons take him out pretty fast. It does make him godly vs people who can't think of how to counter him properly, but tbh I don't think it's imbalanced.

As for the Warlock's shield, he's so heavily dependant upon energy abilities that it's just stupid to kit him out with the shield unless you're turning him into a purely melee hero.

[Hirmetrium]

Refractor Shield on Techmarine is also there... but its tier 2.

Delay all shields to tier 2?

[Pellucid]

As for the Warlock's shield, he's so heavily dependant upon energy abilities that it's just stupid to kit him out with the shield unless you're turning him into a purely melee hero.But if you do turn him into a purely melee hero, he becomes effectively invulnerable, if ViS's replays are any indication.

[warlock00]

What about Falcon shield, which post patch energy reduction, still regens energy at 3/sec. Its shield is amazing.

Don't like the idea of shields having their energy regen cancelled whilst enabled. It's rather tedious management with the zoanthrope.

[Logan054]

the falcon shield is certainly bugged, i remember figthing a pair with shields and nothing seemed to knock them down, seemed rather good for a troop transport, that also seemed far better than what the rhino has :-/

I have to agree the these things shouldnt regain health while enabled, i would think they should have a negative regen so that you only use them when you really need them.

[ViS]

Stop trying to take down vehicles with anti-infantry.

[Logan054]

i can take most vehicles out with infantry, its called plasma cannons and melta bombs

[Vintage]

Not sure if this has been mentioned already, but I play Apothecary quite often and if I see the enemy has an Iron Halo I immediately get the Power Axe upgrade. It drains energy with each hit, and it can take down the Iron Halo in about 3 swings usually. The FC never expects this, he will charge into your army thinking the overpowered halo will protect him, and then suddenly his shield is gone in an instant and wonders what happened. This works on any units that have an energy shield.

I'm probably going to write a strategy for the Space Marines with the Apothecary hero soon because I've got quite a few tricks with him. ;)

[ViS]

i can take most vehicles out with infantry, its called plasma cannons and melta bombs

Stop trying to take down vehicles with anti-infantry.

...

[Pathen]

I can't speak much about the FC, but I think that the Warlock needs his bubble the way it is to remain competitive.

He doesn't get melee attack upgrades the way normal heroes do, and the current regen on Champ armor is what makes it a viable alternative to always waiting for T3 for providence armor.

I think that without it, a lot of lock users would probably move over to the farseer- especially since she gives banshees the utility they need to survive, and the doomspear is the only counter Eldar have to carnifexes at the moment.

[Latias418]

He doesn't get melee attack upgrades the way normal heroes do

wut?

[Pathen]

None of his weapons upgrade his flat melee DPS. The singing spear upgrades ranged DPS, while the immolation blade and ethereal slash blade effectively grant "spells" that can be used, but not depended upon because of cooldowns etc.

This is compared to, say, the HT, FC, or Warboss, who all gain flat attack damage bonuses on their weapon upgrades.

Barring this, I feel that I use my Warlock more for capping and disruption in 1v1s than I do for sh*t farking things up directly, particularly in the late game.

The fact that the Warlock shield allows him to temporarily sustain damage from enemies (particularly nid swarms) gives my army the badly needed lynch-pin that it lost when the banshees were nerfed. (Eg: Something that won't die immediately to rally around).

Without the shield, or if the shield were notably nerfed, it just wouldn't end up being worth it, since I can get some measure of disruption on a Farseer- and gain the benefits of doom/guide/fortune-- which seem to outclass the lock's fancy spells these days.

(Mostly because they are so crucial to actually giving the Eldar a full range of counters).

[ViS]

All of the WL's weapon upgrades upgrade his damage by differing amounts, the Merciless Witchblade being the most damaging.

[Pathen]

That's awesome news if it's true- do you have numbers on that anywhere?

The Damage increase isn't reflected in the tooltip.

[ViS]

Nothing is ever reflected in tooltips.

[redscare]

I play mainly Sm with Apoth, and every time I see a FC or WL, the axe upgrade draining ability makes short work of energy shields.

Other heroes have access to things like Doom, Fortune, Mark Target... I think that evens out the field. But as the apoth has a specially easy way to deal with heroes shields I may be wrong.

BTW, we should get different acronyms for WarLock and Wraith Lord or it may get confusing :P

[brokengamegg]

bump nerf.

[Vertrucio]

Let me add my voice to the many asking Relic to take a good long hard look at shields and their place in the game.

I mean this literally, shields are ruining DoW2, on top of all the other overpowered abilities currently.

There is no reason not to use shields, no reason to use other wargear, or really much other tactics in a normal game.

Right now shields, and the tactics around them really hurt armies like Orks and Eldar more (Even though eldar get a shielded commander themselves) since their core units have somewhat low health/armor.

For Orks, to deal with the shielded commander/unit, they have to use 2-3 units just to take down the shield, all the while the units backing up the shielded unit are attacking away. The Ork strategy is to use an upgraded shootas squad to suppress the shielded commander, then use sluggas to try and burn away the shield. Then try to actually

Sadly, Relic is busy making the game stable and bug free, it will be a while before we actually see changes to the shields.

[Shinova]

Warlock's weapon upgrades do increase his melee damage but only about 50 dps-ish. Merciless Witchblade grants 65 dps, but it's arguably the least desirable of the three weapon upgrades. (though I read the ranged component does knockdown)

Farseer has 60 dps minimum with upgrades, and singing spear grants almost 70 dps, smashes generators and can hurt vehicles (don't try to solo a walker though). Add guide and doom if you've got that weapon and that's an awful lot of damage being dished out for what's supposed to be a support hero. For added lulz get reaping runes accessory and sap their energy too.


EDIT: Shielded commanders are not ruining the game. You take down a halo'ed FC and you're only depriving the enemy of 250 req. Don't bother fighting it, and just dance the victim squad in circles and focus the rest of your troops on his guys. If his FC changes targets, dance some more.

As for Warlock, eventually he's going to have to give up that shield for providence armor, which is so much more devastating.

[Kiri]

The Warlock shield is horrific. I had my Apoth using the health draining sword or the Bolter til I came across a Warlock with total invincibility, running round my Tacs and beating the crap out of me. I don't care how heroic he's meant to be, having a Venerable Dreadnought punching him, an AC Dread shooting him and a squad of level 4 Tacs gunning him down as well should kill him dead. Instead he killed my Scouts, another squad of Tacs, my mates Techmarine, and then ran off. It's ridiculous.

The FC I've never had an issue with. The shield doesn't for very long under concentrated fire.

[ViS]

That's Providence... You know, that ability that makes the WL INVINCIBLE?

-_-;

[Octopus Rex]

Well, if he had a shield up and visible then it wasn't Providence. Kiri - need confirmation there, otherwise ViS has got you. Providence has no visible marker, but was there a biig bubble round him?

Dealing with SM bubbleboy is fine as a Warlock, just used Merciless Witchblade which takes out his energy in no time. As to it being "the least desirable of the upgrades" - don't you decide on upgrades to counter things the enemy is doing? If the enemy is going bubbleboy then you need to counter it, so magically MW is not undesirable any more. Not so easy with other heroes though. Also, you can build the other weapons too, just have the merciless as an addon you can switch to when needed that doesn't cost anything after the initial purchase (though it is slow to switch over).

[Kiri]

I'm positive it was a bubble. There were glowing lines and swirly bits going round him, at least. I didn't bother to save the replay as it was a public game, but I'll look out for it again. Just for clarification, as he finished taking out the Techmarine he did start losing health, but not before that point. Are there any abilities that the Farseer has that can reduce damage on a target? Because there was one hanging around briefly before the WL went on his mad attack.

That's Providence... You know, that ability that makes the WL INVINCIBLE?

Well, I know there's an ability called Providence that makes the WL INVINCIBLE now, but I didn't before. I've somehow managed to avoid meeting Eldar players in ranked matches, and in the few I have met, my teammate usually ends up taking most of the fire from them. I guess I'm just lucky! I've never bothered to try the Eldar properly, and the two occasions I have actually used them, I used the Farseer and the WSE, so Warlocks are a mystery to me.

[Killer Of Many]

Are there any abilities that the Farseer has that can reduce damage on a target?

Yes she does and it's called fortune. Using it on a WL is kind of redundant in my opinion[works much better with banshees] but that probably helped a lot in reducing your damage.

[Vertrucio]

Shinova, it really isn't that simple. Againts good players alike, they won't have their FC chase and they'll keep him near the squads you want to take out. I already rebutted that tactic of going after unshielded units, against a good player, his commander will be placed solidly between you and his units, knowing that his overpowered shield will keep in alive while the shooty SM and Eldar.

And against Orks, who currently cannot stand up to any tier 2+ attacks right now and are pretty slow, there's no way to avoid the shielded commander.

This is even a problem with Zoanthropes and their shield, which makes them nigh unkillable. In one game my teammate dropped an orbital strike on 4 Zoans using shields while his army was tied up with other nids, they all surived because of the shield, and he could keep that thing active at all times since no shield has energy drain.

So as I described, shields really are ruining the game, on top of the other already stated overpowered abilities, which are used in full effect.

[Todehy]

For the commander i understand.....as he replenishes ihis energy fast and doesnt have skills to take energy from the bubble.....also his lolhammer do serious damage.
For the zoantrope shiled....of course it should take energy down or something because is troublesome to kill those super mobile platforms........

But, for the warlock? are you serious?. The guy needs to use energy for other abilities to use him to his full potential...and the shield go down with some proper punishment
..... on top of that... the force commander has other units who can go to fight with him..... the zoantropes are always behind of the angry melee mob of mass destruction.

but you want to nerf the ONLY really capable melee unit in a race full of gunners?.

In the majority of games.-.... the warlock is the difference between "maybe" giving a fight or losing horredously with the eldars.

[cyborgZero]

The point is, the armor type on shields is totally screwed.

#1 - It takes little damage from anything, its armor type needs to be fixed.
#2 - Regeneration of energy while shield is on shouldn't be permitted.
#3 - If there is damage that puts down the shield, its impact should be transferred to the hp. For example, if the commander gets hit by plasma, and he has 1 energy left on the shield, his shield goes down, but the rest of the damage is erased. I think the damage should transfer through to his Hp.

[Todehy]

The only thing i dont garee with you is to take the energy regen of the warlock ....
He regen while the shiled is activated, yeah... but it does so slowly is not very significant if he is engaging. Also he uses his energy a lot for overall fighting.

The FC has more imba issues with his halo tho.

and yes i think the shields need to take more damage from energy, fire, electricity ,acid attacks... but resist melee and non energy etc attacks.

[whatsleft]

imo, shields just need to work like infiltration.

[Kinmaul]

The shields just drop faster and they need a small activation cost (5-10 energy). A big problem right now is that if you have 1 energy left and get hit the shield absorbs the ENTIRE hit before failing. Then a second later when you have one energy again you pop the shield and can absorb another hit. This is incredibly powerful vs units that hit hard a slow. It's also pretty silly to see Zoans (along with any other unit or hero with a shield) survive Orbital Blasts because of this mechanic.

Big reason you don't see many Hive Tyrants (or complaints about his shield) is that the Ravener Alpha is what most Nid players use. That being said please don't derail this thread into a "omfg Ravener Alpha is imba" flame fest.

[Aquila]

A big problem right now is that if you have 1 energy left and get hit the shield absorbs the ENTIRE hit before failing.
Ok, this I agree is a problem. I don't think it was intended this way either. An activation cost of, let's say 25 energy or so, would solve that problem though.