[MOD] The TrueAI Project - Progress Update, post #34 (02/25/10)

[Croaxleigh]

Inspired by my experiments with the DoW2 AI thus far, I've created a concept for a new community-based AI project. Now, it's not going to be some huge-sweeping project with tons of customization options via a little applet in the AI folder like Thud & company's Skirmish AI was... I'm not a programmer, and I doubt that I could accomplish something that grand even if I tried. What it will be, however, is a good starting point for AI customization and a freely-available resource for those who wish to include an improved AI in their own mods.

The TrueAI Project is going to be focused on "teaching" the game how to play better, both through tweaks to its basic AI rules as well as new build orders for the AI to choose from. These build orders aren't going to be arbitrary numbers and units, however; they're going to be based on actual player data, sorted into difficulty levels based upon the submitter's TrueSkill rating. In other words, the AI is going to be learning how to manage it's armies from the players themselves!

Submission of build information is going to be both convenient and confidential... I'll be posting a link to the TrueAI submission page soon where players can go and submit their info. The submission page will ask for the player's common build order for the player's chosen race (yes, the build orders are going to be race-dependent as well) in an average match as well as their TrueSkill rating, their GamerTag, and the screen name that they would like to be credited by. Everyone who submits data to the TrueAI project is going to receive credit in the mod's ReadMe file, and the data collected will be used to compile several new AI build orders for each difficulty rating.

There will be a definite announcement soon as to when submissions will open. Keep in mind that this isn't just open to the very best players... regardless of your skill level you are encouraged to take part. The more data there is to base this project on, the better the AI will be at representing several playstyles used by actual players. And yes, this will include the use of call-ins and abilities as well. *smiles*

Look for information on the opening and closing dates for submissions soon. (A closing date will be specified to keep more submissions from coming in after the data compilation phase has begun; the submission page will be disabled to prevent people from submitting data when the project is no longer taking submissions.)

Once data collection begins I'll be glad to accept offers to help with the process of getting the build orders compiled.

[{Exo}{Elite}]

Nice idea Croaxleigh, I'd love to help when i'm done with my mods =D

[Clonesa]

Really glad someone is doing this. I contemplated it (briefly :P) for my skirmish mod, but I suck at AI. Something like this will be a huge boost to the mod community as a much higher % of mod players play against the AI.

[darkelf]

Awesome :)

Guess I should start playing online to get an actual TrueSkill rating :P

[Croaxleigh]

I won't be able to play online really at all until I get my new computer finished, so I don't even meet the criteria to submit. *laughs*

[the_hunger]

Sounds like a great idea, Croaxleigh. It would be nice if some modding tools were released to make the job easier. Anyhow, I am glad to see someone taking a look at improving the AI.

[Croaxleigh]

To be honest, aside from an archive packager none of the mod tools would really affect this project. AI scripts don't need the Attribute Editor or anything... just Notepad.

[Croaxleigh]

As an update:
Major improvements to the AI are being worked on. These changes should be in our first "major" code-side patch.
If all goes well, the Relic AI update will be released by the time the TrueAI build orders are compiled and ready to go in-game... so the mod will make Relic's improved AI even more potent.

[Taiyang]

Would be nice a tutorial on how the AI works, and how to understand the language there. AI behabiour is something i´ve allways been interested on learning. once i know about it, ill lend you my head :)

edit: ups, there is allready a tutorial going on :P ill get on it.

edit2: Moar AI LUA concepts for DOW2 are required. such as the command lists and how to use them. i learnt the basics LUA from DOW1 mapmaking.

[Croaxleigh]

That's why the current tutorial is "Part 0" of a series... it's currently just the basic background information.

[Steel*Faith]

If all goes well, the Relic AI update will be released by the time the TrueAI build orders are compiled and ready to go in-game... so the mod will make Relic's improved AI even more potent.

Wow! That's pretty incredible. I'm really, really looking forward to this. I love MP, but I haven't been able to really enjoy the game (like i enjoyed DoW, CoH) because of the lack of good AI. I'm more of the type of player to enjoy the scenery and get immersed in the setting, instead of focusing beating other players.

[nteger]

Wow, you're like the new Thudmeizer!

[Croaxleigh]

Not even close. Thudo and his team went through and created an elaborate AI that was fully customizable by the end user... I'm just learning enough so that I can collect data and teach the AI how to use that data. While I'm hoping to make TrueAI into something that'll make for an enjoyable experience that will vary from one game to the next, it won't be a built-from-the-ground-up AI revolution like the DoW Skirmish AI team created. *smiles*

[the_hunger]

Sounds great, Croaleigh. I hope that you intend to make this a pure AI mod, just as Thud & Arkhan did with DoW1. That is, I hope that you focus solely on improving AI skirmish performance and leave things such as tweaking stats, balance, changing squad sizes, etc. to other mods.

[Croaxleigh]

There won't be any changes in this other than the AI... it's purely about giving options to the AI, not making some big mod with advanced AI as well.

[Cadian Guard]

wat has thud been up to lately? thought he wouldve started tinkering DoW2's AI long ago.

cheers on the project though!

[Croaxleigh]

He's still working on a number of DoW mods, to the best of my knowledge... though judging by his posts I doubt he'll be seen 'round DoW2 soon if at all.

[Steel*Faith]

That's too bad to hear. So is he not a fan of DoW II, or just doesn't want to leave DoW modding?

[LarkinVB]

Here are opinions about coding DoW2 AI from the old Skirmish Mod team, that is Thudo, Arkhan an me :

Linky (http://forums.revora.net/index.php?showtopic=68990)

[the_hunger]

I do hope that Thudo & co. will have a look at the DoW2 AI to see what can be done. However, I do share some of their reservations about the game and whether bothering with DoW2 is worth their time right now, since they appear to be still working on DoW1 mods. I know that the team has to be discriminating in how they use their time. Personally, I would much prefer another high-quality race mod for DoW1 (like Steel Legion or 1000 sons) than DoW2 with an improved AI but just 7 maps, 2 gameplay modes, no 2v2, no FFA, etc. Still, if the Dawn of Skirmish guys could take a look at DoW2, I would certainly be grateful.

Again, many thanks to Croaxleigh and other modders who are already taking a look at the AI.

[runab0ut]

Am looking forward to them working on DoW2, give em time. Wished they looked at the code/game even just for a bit, before saying anything about it.

[Clonesa]

There seemed to be a lot of uninformed dow2 hate in there :S DoW2 is a far more complex and well designed game than DoW1. Relic (even though they clearly do not care for skirmish ai) is one of the more innovative RTS companies. DoW2 is a continuation of that innovation. DoW1 was basically warcraft/starcraft with w40k models, sync kills and a better resource system. DoW2 is actually a new game and a damn good one. Its funny he mentions less tactics because of base building, base building was awful in dow1 and just got in the way and had nothing to do with strategy T.T Improving the AI in dow2 is actually a much bigger job, not only because its worse, but because there isnt base building, the ai actually needs to know how to play a tactical game, not just build a building, spam units and attack move in the more simple starcraft based dow1.

[Steel*Faith]

Here are opinions about coding DoW2 AI from the old Skirmish Mod team, that is Thudo, Arkhan an me :

Linky

Wow the mod community of DoW (not everyone) seems really hateful toward DoW II, it's borderline ridiculous. DoW II simplistic WCIII...lol yea right. This game is so much more complex on the tactical and strategic level than DoW, it's not even close.

[ravenmorpheus]

Is it any wonder Thud and the Skirmish AI mod team are so anti DoW 2?

They offered their Skirmish AI up for use in SS iirc and they were turned down.

So who's more ridiculous Relic (or at that time ILE and Relic) for not using the best AI around for SS (and basically not really giving a whole lot of support for the game, or the mod community at that time or since) or Thud and co. for refusing to work on DoW 2 because they feel there isn't a lot they can do with the AI due to the nature of DoW 2, basically being a downgraded version of CoH/DoW 1 with elements "borrowed" from WC3 and nice shiny new graphics to please the 12 year olds who haven't got a clue that their being fed with a spoon while THQ/Relic are reaching into their parents wallets for the pleasure?!

DoW2 is actually a new game and a damn good one.

There isn't anything new in DoW 2 that I can see, aside from the shiny new graphics pretty much everything has been done before - the non-base building/strategy that comes from not being able to turtle due to lack of a base has been done before (Total War series to name one), the RPG elements ("borrowed" from WC3), the 40k setting (DoW), the win conditions (CoH) I could probably go on but this isn't the place for a rant so I apologise for doing so...

/rant

@Croaxleigh - great idea for a mod, will be interesting to see what you can do with the AI. Perhaps you can stop the unit spam that happens (although I think that happens because the AI doesn't really have many units to choose from in the first place) and perhaps do something about the units falling back so often? Especially orks, I get down to chopping up the last ork in a squad of boyz and he runs leaving my commander and co chasing down 1 solitary ork halfway across the map, either that or units come in and then immediately fall back without doing anything in particular... :)

[LarkinVB]

Improving the AI in dow2 is actually a much bigger job, not only because its worse, but because there isnt base building, the ai actually needs to know how to play a tactical game, not just build a building, spam units and attack move in the more simple starcraft based dow1.

It is more than obvious that you have no idea about AI modding. You do need an interface to communicate with the core engine. This interface has to provide a lot of data to code a decent tactical AI. I doubt that Relic is providing such an interface. In DOW1 the AI couldn't target specific squads. It had no map layout awareness. It was a good AI interface but limited, especially in the tactical department. If tactics is all what is left in DOW2 there is little you can mod. I heard that the AI is not using abilities at all. Hope this can me modded. You can mod unit and wargear selection hopefully. Not much more to do than some decent attack move and fallback code.

I have no hate towards DOW2 or Relic and can't see any hate in the link I posted. I just don't want to support Relic with my money after feeling a lettdown with Relics DOW1 support.

I've heard that Relic will improve the DOW2 AI and get applause for it. Tsk. They should have put in a decent AI in the first place. I think their support attitude did not really change.

Ok, all this is offtopic. Good luck with your mod, Croaxleigh.

[Clonesa]

Erm, exactly why its a bigger job. Maybe more difficult would be the correct wording. Theres no need to get angry. An AI having to make intelligent use of tactics in a much more tactically (read: better :P) designed RTS would be a more difficult thing to accomplish rather than an AI that simply builds buildings that only exist for the sake of saying the game has buildings and pump out the right units at the fastest rate. Wether or not that is possible is not for me to say as I don't know enough about dow2 yet.

I used to mod for Generals, compared to that, DoW2's mod support is glorious, code wise. When you look at THQ's financial situation and MS involvement it's easy to imagine Relic had a rather strict deadline so at some point that had to sit down and make a tough decision: This isn't our father's RTS so to speak so either we cut something else and make a real AI as the starcraft build stuff and attack move typical ai isn't going to cut it or we delay the AI for patch/dlc.

As for DoW2 being a terrible game. All I can say is that everyone has different taste, but the vast majority of people that have played it appear to disagree. Compare DoW1 to 90% of the all RTS on the market. Pretty much identical +sync kills and +better resource system. Compare DoW2... nuff' said. They may have started most of DoW2's innovation in CoH, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a great idea.


To put this back on a track. The existing AI code appears to be severely broken. I've been questioning wether the build order stuff even works correctly. I've been trying to find reference to existing build order functions, but failed. Has Croax made any progress on this front?

[Tovarich]

Gentlemen ! Put the following command in your autoexec.lua ,launch a Private skirmish game with computers and be amazed, baffled ,shocked and appaled by the retardness of the Vanilla DoW 2 AI :

Scar_DoString("Misc_AIControlLocalPlayer()")

[Vertrucio]

If those guys got their panties in a bunch about a corporate studio not taking external submissions, then I've just lost a lot of respect for guys that previously gained a lot for making.

It shows a real lack of common business sense. There's no doubt Relic wanted to take and use the code they offered, but they absolutely could not due to the legalities of the situation.

Also, all this talk about them being better is nice and all, but what are these two, just hobbyists? No doubt they've worked in the industry (or have they) but they clearly aren't under the cut throat deadlines of an actual publisher. They had all the time in the world to create the DoW1 AI to make it what it was, whereas Relic had a set budget, set deadline, and actual lives outside of studio work.

Respect to the guys for creating great DoW1 AI, but grow up people.

[Steel*Faith]

There isn't anything new in DoW 2 that I can see, aside from the shiny new graphics pretty much everything has been done before - the non-base building/strategy that comes from not being able to turtle due to lack of a base has been done before (Total War series to name one), the RPG elements ("borrowed" from WC3), the 40k setting (DoW), the win conditions (CoH) I could probably go on but this isn't the place for a rant so I apologise for doing so...

Thing you're not realizing is yes all these thing have been done before in different games. DoW II combines all these elements into ONE game, and this has never been done before. Combining the great features of DoW, CoH, Diablo II ect into one great WH40k game is a great achievement.

As for the financial troubles of THQ, and Relic being under pressure to release DoW II quickly, is not to understand unless you're in the industry i'm sure. I can appreciate all the hard work they put into this game, and you can tell there was a lot of passion and talent poured into this game.

Based off Relic's past history with patch support, i'm sure many of us are skeptical. Although I think Johnny, and other devs, were being sincere that they want to improve their post game support for DoW II. Hopefully we will get a greatly improved AI, and this mod will be able to enhance it even further.

[Vertrucio]

DoW2 is doing well enough on the shelves that patch support is guaranteed. All that remains to be seen is how well they handle changes. We're already seeing some of Relic-isms with the pop cap bug and such, which seems fixed in a "NASA juryrigged air scrubber for Apollo 13" kind of way.

Keep in mind that future expansions will probably expand on the SP, so improving the AI is a good investment.

[the herald]

Dont know if this would be possible, but could you make a game/ai mode where the computer only uses troops? It would allow the QS game modes as well as normal modes to be more epic *imagines sm squads holding back waves of hormagaunts :D *
Just an idea I'm throwing out, as I don't think restricting tanks, makes the AI build troops instead. Really want the tyranids to have the swarrm feel :D

[Croaxleigh]

I've run in to some personal problems that will keep me offline for the next month or so; until then I won't be able to give many updates on this or any other of my projects. Once I'm back, though, I'll see what I can do. *smiles*

[Croaxleigh]

Just an update... I've started some basic work on this mod project again. I don't anticipate anything close to a release before Chaos Rising, but I'm going to try and get something workable together in the next few months. If I can get a working preliminary build that shows promise, then I'll continue with the TrueAI Project as initially outlined in order to include multiple build orders of different skill levels for AI players as well.

[Croaxleigh]

Another update... been going through some of the AI documents, and it appears that Relic has provided at least some documentation for possible AI functions. Looks like at the very least I should be able to provide different AI strategies for different map sizes (i.e., the AI will act differently and use different build orders for 1v1 games than it would for 3v3 games), and will hopefully in a later phase of development will be able to get the AI to recognize player/opponent races and further adapt strategy based on what the other team is using. Hope to have a test build available pre-CR.

And just so you know it'll be better than the standard AI's "build whatever to introduce randomness" feature, build order input for the initial build that I'm working on comes from people like Buguba, Logic_Bomb, and Hellic... folks who know how to play and win against human players.

[horusheretic]

ive pretty much made a more violent and aggressive AI just by tweaking and standardising a few values, and in time they become more aggressive as the game goes on to provide a challenge.

whether you want me to send it to you is upto you.