And They Shall Know no Fear

[Buguba]

Or pain, for that matter.

These are the basic modifiers that "ATSKnF" applies when activated:

Activation:

- Heal 10000 courage damage

For 20 seconds,

- Decrease maximum speed by 40% (doesn't stack with fellow maximum speed modifiers).
- Decrease courage damage (suppression) by 100%.
- Decrease all damage taken by 40%
- Set special attack chance to 50%

Requirements to activate ATSKnF:

- Sergeant upgrade
- Squad has taken 1400 damage (regardless of sergeant).


The technical modifier data can be seen here: http://www.dow2db.com/ability/pvp/race_marine/sm_and_they_shall_know_no_fear


Problem: ATSKnF practically turns tacs into Assault Terminators. Tactical squads with ATSKnF active will beat most commanders, upgraded Banshees (exarch + aspect of banshee), upgraded Assault Marines (leader), and even Adrenal Gland Warriors in melee. No heavy weapon on the Tac's part required. Quite obviously, they stomp over any lesser melee squads with ease while the ability is active.

It's a fact that ATSKnF requires the squad to have taken 1400 damage before its activation (full health of the squad w/ sarg), which means that it can't exactly be spammed. However, that 1400 damage can be taken at ANY time, meaning that it's usually charged by the time SM players hit T2. Conveniently, this is just in time to build a sergeant.

Solution: Nerf the melee bonus that comes with the ability a little bit. The problem isn't that the ability isn't spammable, the problem is that by turning it on your tacs go superman in melee.

Not only can Tacs already out-gun pretty much any other ranged squad in the game (especially with heavy weapns), but the ATSKnF ability makes them beat most melee specialists at their own game. That's a lot, considering that ATSKnF charges fairly easily later in the game with Tacs awesome health and survivability.

Just make it something where damage recieved is 50% rather than 40%, or make the ability give Tacs 60% resiliance to ranged damage rather than melee damage. If not that, just reduce the chance of special attack. A part of the reason Tacs pwn melee troops so badly with ATSKnF is because they're always knocking them down with special attacks.

[Hirmetrium]

I dont see anything wrong with ATSKNF. Their special attacks actually knock their opponents out of reach in my experience, so they don't do huge amounts of damage.

[Saias]

havn't got time to add much, but i would like to point out that ATSKNF does not start building untill you actually build the sergeant.

[Dauntless]

We have the tyranids to worry about and you're talking about NERFING an opposing race?

[Brenil]

Decrease maximum speed by 40% (doesn't stack with fellow maximum speed modifiers).


You obviously missed this part. Someone pops ATSKNF, you run out of range, shoot at them and laugh while they piddle around for twenty seconds, then run back in with melee specialists.

ATSKNF is a good ability, but it isn't overpowered simply by virtue that it can be countered and slow Tacticals are dead Tacticals once it wears off.

[LandShark]

brenil nailed it. just dont fight if you dont feel you can win.

i like to counter astknf by using use yer choppas for the warboss, it basically causes special attacks for your squas as well.

Anything that knocks them down is great also, it also means they cannot dodge grenades.

[Buguba]

The main problem I felt was more the ATSKnF and the melee power it bestows to tacs. Not that it's too powerful when it comes to ranged combat. It's only slightly ridiculous when you hop two upgraded ASMs on two tacs, the tacs pop ATSKnF, and send your ASMs running.

I don't disagree that you can retreat though. That's always a toughie though. By retreating, you've now sacrificed that area to the enemy. Retreating isn't exactly get out of jail free. Now you've given the entire enemy SM army new ground, time to set-up, and you've lost the point you were contesting. That's a lot to give up, even if you didn't lose anyone.


You obviously missed this part. Someone pops ATSKNF, you run out of range, shoot at them and laugh while they piddle around for twenty seconds, then run back in with melee specialists.

ATSKNF is a good ability, but it isn't overpowered simply by virtue that it can be countered and slow Tacticals are dead Tacticals once it wears off.

Tacticals with ATSKnF are at their best when at ranged combat. Why would you want to engage them then? Nothing short of sniper squads or suppression units will outrange them, and tacs will shrug both of those off with their suppression immunity + 40% damage resistance.

Tacticals are certainly not dead when the ability wears off. Tacticals without ATSKnF go back to be regular tacticals, which can still be scary. ATSKnF makes them absolutely terrifying.

[FooF]

ATSKNF isn't available that often nor is it used as quickly as it is available because not every engagement is going to warrant it.

That being said, it is a very powerful ability but many of the abilities that require damage to charge are likewise powerful. Imagine if it cost 50 Energy and was available every 2 minutes... O.o

1400 damage is nothing to sniff at either (though DoWCodex has it listed at 1200 and I thought I remember in the Beta Patch it was upped to 1800). In order to achieve that, you're either going to have to lose squad members, retreat a lot, or have the Apoth. At level 1, the entire squad of Tacs + Sgt has 1450 HP.

In melee, Tacs become monsters and I think that is the complaint. They can be avoided at range, as Brenil mentioned, but in the midst of a nearly even battle, the odds are dramatically turned in favor of the Tacs.

Imagine, just for a second, if ASM got ATSKNF with their Sgt instead of Merciless Strike (or whatever its called). Heck, switch the Strike and ATSKNF on ASM and Tacs, respectively, and hear the weeping and gnashing of teeth. :p

[Raddish]

Maybe it should make the Tacs strike slower, so they become highly resistant in CC but are unable to deal out quite so much damage.

They would be able to sit out a 1v1 melee while waiting for reinforcements but would be less likely to win the melee on their own before the ATSKNF runs out.

[Buguba]

In melee, Tacs become monsters and I think that is the complaint.

This is it exactly. :)


havn't got time to add much, but i would like to point out that ATSKNF does not start building untill you actually build the sergeant

No, this is definitely not true. Damage for ATSKnF starts racking up the moment your tac squad is built. It is only USABLE when the sergeant is built though.

[Brenil]

Tacticals with ATSKnF are at their best when at ranged combat. Why would you want to engage them then? Nothing short of sniper squads or suppression units will outrange them, and tacs will shrug both of those off with their suppression immunity + 40% damage resistance.

They don't receive a ranged damage buff though. Tacticals using ATSKNF are best used in melee, not ranged. At ranged they still have to contend with things such as being outranged, outgunned, or against units in heavy cover. The fact that Tacticals lose their mobility in range also mean they're prime canditates to be flanked and have fire on their ass. While they take less damage, they're not invunerable; therefore the best counter to ATSKNF is not even dealing with it. If they use it, fall back behind cover take pot shots at them for twenty seconds, then re-engage after (hopefully) assuming a better position.

Tactical's strength is their flexiability, they aren't ranged specialists or melee ones, they're a jack of all trades and when you take away that flexiability they've very vunerable.

[Buguba]

They don't receive a ranged damage buff though. Tacticals using ATSKNF are best used in melee, not ranged. At ranged they still have to contend with things such as being outranged, outgunned, or against units in heavy cover. The fact that Tacticals lose their mobility in range also mean they're prime canditates to be flanked and have fire on their ass. While they take less damage, they're not invunerable; therefore the best counter to ATSKNF is not even dealing with it. If they use it, fall back behind cover take pot shots at them for twenty seconds, then re-engage after (hopefully) assuming a better position.


In the midst of battle, not engaging someone for 20 seconds is kind of a big thing. To avoid someone that long requires you to practically retreat. Like I said before, retreating is no small deal.

ATSKnF tacs aren't invincible, but taking 40% less damage is kind of a big thing. That's the equivilant of having your troops garrisoned in a building. Stack that with any other cover modifiers, and those tacs ARE practically invincible. You're kidding yourself if you think that your army is going to out-gun tacticals (which are already one of the best ranged combatents) that have that big of a damage reduction. This is especially true if those tacs have plasma and flamers.

So you're right, tacticals recieve more bonuses from ATSKnF in terms of melee than ranged. However, tacticals are already beasts in ranged, and the damage reduction is more than enough to keep those tacticals pumping their heavy weapons on your troops for a long time.

If the tacs can out-gun your ranged troops already, and ATSKnF lets them beat up on your melee specialists, you're pretty much screwed unless you outnumber them vastly. That, or you can retreat, which just yields that much more of your land and resources to your opponent.

[redscare]

IMHO, Buguba, you have a solution looking for a problem. Cos ATSKNF is fine. Yes, you build a sarge and can immediately use it in T2... in you starting tac squad only. Any other squad must wait. And if you're unlucky and sarge dies first, no ability for you during that combat.

I can't really understand the problem. You attack, enemy pops blue circles of death, you GTFO and come 20seconds later with the same army and kill them. Same you do with fortuneguided-shees and waaagh. With the difference that your melee specialist dies against fortune-shees and waaaagh but gets mostly knockback only from the blue guys. Unlike my other examples, it's the supporting squads that kill the melee specialists, not the tacs.

[Brenil]

What you're missing is how slow Tacticals are. Losing their flexiability in a game that is mostly about mobility from a unit that prides itself on adapting to any situation is critical. I never side you could outgun them, I said you could trade shots with them and in the interm you could flank their slow butts or go for another part of the map.

Space Marines are already pretty vunerable to map control issues, having one of their very few squads basically rooted to one spot of the map means they've commited themselves to that ground and cannot really respond to changes in the battlefield.

You're right, in battle twenty seconds is along time, especially if during that twenty seconds you're losing map control elsewhere because your slow Tacticals used ATSKNF on a previously important area only for the enemy to disperse or leave behind a unit or two to harass you while the rest of the army hits you elsewhere.

ATSKNF makes Tacticals into rocks along a shore, the water never destroys them persay, but it erodes them and flows past them. As it is, for as long as the ability is active, SM effectively lose the ability to respond to other threats and commit themselves to a single area for twenty seconds. If they do this with more than one Tactical (as I've seen several times), they basically root their entire army in one spot.

[Buguba]

I can't really understand the problem. You attack, enemy pops blue circles of death, you GTFO and come 20seconds later with the same army and kill them.

You guys keep assuming that ATSKnF is what gives tacs the winning edge, but that simply isn't the case. An SM player with normal tacs can still beat your army. The point is that an SM player with ATSKnF tacs will butcher your army.

If you retreat and come back, you've given time for the SM player to set-up his guys and defend. We all know that sitting in heavy cover and defending is a Tac's strong point. Now it's that much more difficult to win. The SM player can still beat you with his regular army when you get back; ATSKnF isn't necessary.

ATSKNF makes Tacticals into rocks along a shore, the water never destroys them it erodes them and flows past them. As it is, for as long as the ability is active, SM effectively lose the ability to respond to other threats and commit themselves to a single area for twenty seconds. If they do this with more than one Tactical (as I've seen several times), they basically root their entire army in one spot.

This is true, but this is fairly map dependent. On a more open map, this would definitely be the case. If the map isn't super open though, you'll be forced to engage (and lose some territory) at some level. The current maps tend to be more closed than not.

[Brenil]

If you retreat and come back, you've given time for the SM player to set-up his guys and defend.

That'd actually mean something if this game was linear, but almost all maps have various points of attack and he who defends everything, defends nothing.

[LandShark]

you keep assuming that you are always gonna have it when you need it, and popping it doesnt mean they will to anything other than get hit by artillery and nades, and anything else you see fit to nail them with.


all you do is move away for 20 seconds and come back.

Not to mention there are plenty of abilities out there that increase damage. combat stims, marked target, use yer choppas are just a few that nullify it.

it doesnt increase their damage, so you can simply send in fodder to tie them up also.

THE BIGGEST THING IS IF HE USES IT, JUST TARGET A DIFFERENT UNIT, HE ISNT GOING TO BE ABLE TO USE IT ON ALL HIS UNITS, AND IF HE DOES, THEN YOU SIMPLY RETREAT AND YOU HAVE COMPLETE ADVANTAGE BECAUSE HE CANT MOVE!

[Raddish]

Also he wouldnt be able to use it at all next time you fight as you wont have recharged it by firing at the squads.

[Demonic Spoon]

I'm undecided. There might be something to the OP, but the flexibility you get when he kills his movement speed like that is significant.

[Troubleshooter]

Funny - Mark them with the Tech Marine, LOL as they can't run away and take pretty much full damage.

This isn't a real problem unless you are countering tacs with all CC units. Really, most of the time I never use the ability - its not good enough to waste on a single encounter with CC units... its really good at mugging enemy CC heroes who try to silence your ML's.

Remember, Tac squads with special weapons and commanders cost 600 req and ~30 energy on average. If they could easily be countered by CC units at ALL times, they would be a bit over priced, don't you think?

[Aquila]

Any decent SM player upgrades the weapons on his tac squads as a priority, so your standard Plasma Tac Squad is going to run you 640/60.

SM players pay as much for their line infantry squads as most armies pay for T3 elite infantry. So my question would be... overpowered when compared to what?

Food for thought.

[whatsleft]

i think this ability is currently magnified in effectiveness combined with the bubblehammer FC.

people ignore the FC usually and go for tacs straight away, try to tie them up in melee, then the problem comes, they go ATSKNF, we are forced to leave that and the FC alone.

because these 2 guys are free to do watever naughty things, they can do alot of damage to ur army.

[Aetherfox]

ATSKNF is perfectly fine, just bait them to blow the cooldown with the really obvious blue glow.

you KNOW he's going to blow the cooldown when you melee him, so make sure your first engagement with a squad with ATSKNF is with the sole intention of forcing his hand - ie don't over commit your forces, you're only there to make him waste it.

this isn't warcraft 3 or any other RTS game where he charges your base and triggers his specials and pwns you for 20 seconds

you don't have to fight in this game if you don't want to. an additional 20 seconds of one VP ticking down isn't a game ending scenario, which is what this ability basically buys.

complaining about ATSKNF is like complaining about grenades doing too much damage - as we all play against it we realise that many times taking damage from it is avoidable. yes ATSKNF is powerful, but so is eating a pair of plasma grenades every 40 seconds and losing a squad.

[Buguba]

overpowered when compared to what?


ASMs for one, which would run you about 650 req and 50 power (off the top of my head, might be off) for an upgraded squad. Tacs will beat ASMs even AFTER the ASMs have goomba stomped them. Tacs (640/60) beating dedicated, upgraded melee infantry (650/50) in melee is a bit skewed.

That's all I'm saying guys. It's not that ATSKnF is way over the top. I'm just saying that it's a little skewed that it makes Tacs better than dedicated melee units when activated. Of course it can be avoided, but that doesn't change the fact that, if your opponent decides to activate it right as your melee army is in close combat, your melee units are screwed.

After all, by saying "just avoid it," you're assuming that the player has activated ATSKnF at a time when you can actually turn tail. In my experience, players will save ATSKnF until you get your dedicated melee units in CC with their tacs. Once in CC, ATSKnF comes on. At that time, you're definitely going to lose at least a few guys, and the battle is lost.

[Saias]

Wait a minute, you mean an ability which is designed specifically to defend against melee units actually defends against melee units? woah nelly!

[ImmortalChaos]

If you are actually losing entire melee squads to ATSKNF tacs, you're doing it horribly wrong.

It's basic strategery to disengage from a losing battle... and since tacs become so very slow with them blue circles, they'll almost always miss out on the the 30% damage boost they would get from you retreating.

Certainly, it is an engagement-winning ability to force the retreat of an opposing player's dedicated melee squad, but it shouldn't be a game-winning one unless you've already been outplayed.

[mlai]

Opening post is a lot of theorycraft. You can say anything about any ability to make it sound OP on paper. The only thing that matters is are SM OP? Is Tac spam OP?

Considering that Nids is tops, and SM is not, even with the temporary zero-cost upkeep... maybe not?

[Buguba]

Opening post is a lot of theorycraft. You can say anything about any ability to make it sound OP on paper. The only thing that matters is are SM OP? Is Tac spam OP?

I'm not kidding about the ATSKnF tacs beating ASMs, Banshees, and Adrenal Gland Warriors. I'll cook up a replay for you, if you'd like.

If you are actually losing entire melee squads to ATSKNF tacs, you're doing it horribly wrong.


Jesus, of course you're not losing entire melee squads. I'm saying that you CAN. Any idiot will retreat them in time.

Wait a minute, you mean an ability which is designed specifically to defend against melee units actually defends against melee units? woah nelly!

Then I'm saying that the extra melee ability makes it a bit over the top. Most abilities grant one extra utility to a squad (infiltration, damage resistance, suppression immunity). ATSKnF grants massive damage resistance, suppression immunity, AND makes the squad into a melee powerhouse. The melee part seems a bit over the top, and that's all. The rest is fine.

[LandShark]

atsknf tacs will not beat anything.

anyone with even half a brain will put them out of melee and target a new unit.

all atsknf does it make people change targets.

[Ceorl]

Something to bear in mind for us not so good players is that it can be difficult for us to tell when ATSKnF kicks in. I've found squads slaughtered by a TAC unit I thought I had under control because the damage modifier kicked in while I was trying to micro something else. A few seconds later and several squads are dead before I can adjust and hit X.

We all know how good players avoid ATSKnF. But given ATSKnF's power it might be helpful for us of lower caliber if another clue to ATSKnF is added; beyond a blue field under the TACs in case our eyes are elsewhere.

[Aquila]

ASMs for one, which would run you about 650 req and 50 power (off the top of my head, might be off) for an upgraded squad...
I was actually going to mention this. The only concern I have with the way things are is that many times I see no point to getting assault marines. HOWEVER - you really can't overestimate that jump ability. Nothing else allows you to deal with suppression squads so easily, and the fact that you can zoom around from squad to squad can pretty much negate an enemy's infantry based fire support. I think that's worth paying a premium for.

Wouldn't mind seeing assault marines do a little more damage in close combat but that would bring up a whole extra set of balance issues. For now, I think its best focus on race vs race balance before we worry about army internal choices.

[hellic]

Something to bear in mind for us not so good players is that it can be difficult for us to tell when ATSKnF kicks in. I've found squads slaughtered by a TAC unit I thought I had under control because the damage modifier kicked in while I was trying to micro something else. A few seconds later and several squads are dead before I can adjust and hit X.

We all know how good players avoid ATSKnF. But given ATSKnF's power it might be helpful for us of lower caliber if another clue to ATSKnF is added; beyond a blue field under the TACs in case our eyes are elsewhere.
Are you serious? I guess the huge-ass target on the ground isn't warning enough for an Orbital Bombardment either. Emperor knows how many squads will be obliterated when you take your eyes off your forces for a few seconds. WE NEED FUCKING SIRENS, RELIC, YA HEAR?!?

[Saias]

Buguba - Let's face it, you're making something out of nothing.

[Ceorl]

Actually, I think Buguba brings up a valid point (though that could be just as damning given my lack of skill, lol).

Hellic, regardless of what you think of ATSKnF (imbalanced, balanced) the fact of the matter is that little button can completely turn a game around. Once activated the TAC squad will deal with darn near anything that is thrown at it. Simply put its a game changer and one that can be hard to spot, relative to its power, because three guys, out of dozens, will glow blue.

Compare it to Orbital Bomardement as you suggested. One, OB's warning indicator is much bigger and more obvious than ATSKnF. Not only does the color superimpose better against the backdrop but the indicator is big. ATSKnF's blue squares are not. Two, OB not only takes a long while to accumulate resource wise but it can only be used endgame and infrequently too. ATSKnF can be used early on into tier two and frequently. Third, OB's reticule warns the enemy before the ability activates. ATSKnF confers an immediate bonus.

Now take the the Ork's WAAGH, which is like ATSKnF (except the Orks glow yellow instead of blue) with two differences: One, the Orks must activate it before they engage and, optimally, when they blob making the ability's trigger hard to miss. ATSKnF can trigger during the battle making it more difficult to spot. Two, WAAGH is powerful, but it is not a game changer. Well managed enemy units can still defeat WAAGH'ed Orks. ATSKnF'ed Marines however can only be practically managed by retreating.

What this boils down is my dislike of an all powerful ability that triggers relatively quietly. Grenades have a nice arc, massive timer warning, and your guys screaming grenade. Nukes have all sorts of limitations. But ATSKnF causes non-SM players to break out into a sweat once Sergeants hit the field because the ability can occur anytime, anywhere and near instantly win a fight.

I believe many begginers don't understand the significance of ATSKnF, or any of the little all-powerful micro abilities, and miss the small blue cue towards its activation. When I first started playing I had no idea how many squads I lost to ATSKnF because I did not understand its power or knew it had been applied. Now if a tank came by and killed my squad I could quickly figure out the need for AT to compete. But, in comparison, ATSKnF is much more a head-scratcher because its effects are so subtle.

The solution is to continue Relic's transition to audio warnings to help players deal with changing situations rather than having players rely solely on visual feedback. For example, CoH infantry radioing they are being attacked by a tank. DoW units announcing enemy leader type, race, when they are pinned, etc.

Ideally, a player should get a special verbal indicator when the ability has been activated such as "oy them space marines are invuncible" but I know that can't help be added for a finished product.

Instead what I would hope is that the audio dialogue the activating player receives, such as orks screaming "WAAGH" could be added to the general audio so that both the activator and the enemy can hear the verbal cue.

[Dux]

This would be overpowered if it wasn't an unspammable ability that makes the squad glow bright blue when activated. Just avoid entering into melee with Tacs while the ability is active. It's not that hard, really. If Tacs didn't have this, they'd be forced to retreat too often in Tier 2 onward.

[hellic]

The problem you bring up isn't that ATSKNF is hard to notice, but that new players simply don't know the mechanics of the ability (or the game, for that matter). And sooner or later, they will learn what ATSKNF does, possibly from playing Marines themselves and reading the tooltips.

As for the indicator signs, it's all a matter of personal preference. The fluorescent blue really stand out on the battlefield for me (much more than the WAAAAAGH!!). On the other hand, the indication for OB has a pretty bland color that can easily blend into the ground if not for the big target sign. For me, ATSKNF would be infinitely harder to notice if the glowing circle (which is pretty big, IMO) was the same color of the OB targeter.

[LandShark]

i think its impossible to not know waagh is on. upon click you hear WAAAAAGGHHHHHHHHHH!

[Saias]

Ceorl - How can anyone not notice a tact squad has initiated ATSKNF? there's a giant blue aura around their feet.

ATSKNF can turn a battle around just how grenades can, and waaagh, and warpthrow etc.

[Ceorl]

i think its impossible to not know waagh is on. upon click you hear WAAAAAGGHHHHHHHHHH!

Actually you don't. Only the activator hears the audio, the enemy only sees the orks get yellow under their feet. I agree in that I think it would help if everyone heard the Orks scream WAAGH.

The problem you bring up isn't that ATSKNF is hard to notice, but that new players simply don't know the mechanics of the ability (or the game, for that matter). And sooner or later, they will learn what ATSKNF does, possibly from playing Marines themselves and reading the tooltips.

I don't disagree with you, but my thought is to help folks along in the process of understanding what does what. Relic has done an excellent job of providing instructional cues for other abilities and I think that should be extended to microabilities.

Ceorl - How can anyone not notice a tact squad has initiated ATSKNF? there's a giant blue aura around their feet.

Blue aura? Yes Giant? No. Giant is when an Ork player is about to drop a rok on me. And, as I've said, my problem isn't so much the aura's color or size but the fact that it can be engaged at any point in a fight and provide immediate benefits. All other abilities have some sort of limitations that helps player predict their activation.

ATSKNF can turn a battle around just how grenades can, and waaagh, and warpthrow etc.

ATSKNF doesn't just turn a battle around, it changes the game. Activate it and TACs are almost unbeatable. The cheese problems all offer, or appear to offer, this kind of massive tactical shift. I think Buguba's offer is reasonble in that keeps the ability, but reduces its potency.

[Raddish]

It hardly changes the game, at best it will turn a melee skirmish the tacs are gonna lose into one they will win. Yes when active it makes the tacs very resistant, but it lasts a short amount of time, and doesnt allow the tac squad to destroy an entire army as the units just need to disengage the tacs to survive.

For it to be a game changer it would need to be devastating to your forces, and it just isnt.

If you are losing entire units to ATSKNF then you need to work on your micro and pay more attention.

It isnt hard to notice, there are other abilities that i have a harder time noticing then ATSKNF. The lighter blue tends to stick out when put on a dark ground colour.

However it may be slightly too powerful, though i am not totally convinced either way yet.

The only thing i can see being worth doing to it if it is slightly too powerful is to lower the rate of attack for the tac squad slightly, to make it more of an ability to use so they can hold out for reinforcement rather then one to force the enemy to retreat.

[LOLNAZIS]

ATSKNF needs to be buffed, not nerfed. yeah- it makes them temporarily "unbeatable". so temporarily stop trying to beat them. maybe beat something else while you wait? if there's nothing else to beat- just walk away... its not like he's going to be able to chase you! once you are at a safe distance, slap yourself on the back for making your foe waste a valuable ability for absolutely no reason.

then, once their temporary unbeatableness has worn off, come back and beat them- they won't even be very far away since it snares them for the duration!

if you're argument is that new players won't understand any of that- then how are you going to handle the countless other abilities in this game? some which don't even come with obvious indicators like giant glowing blue circles?

[Brenil]

ATSKNF needs to be buffed, not nerfed.

No, it is fine the way it is. I know that is difficult for some people to understand. It rewards tactical use of it, punishes people who ignore it, and is counterable. That is the very defination of balanced.

[LOLNAZIS]

counter? would you call walking away from a grenade a counter? thats just called micromanagement. a counter would be a techable ability called "And Now They Shall, In Fact, Know Fear Again"

the "counter" is to just temporarily stop attacking the squad and move away. unless they are now overcoming suppression, you just 100% completely negated the ability and you can laugh at the guy for voluntarily snaring his squad in order to accomplish absolutely nothing.

people who ignore it are nubs. i'm sure it works great against nubs- so does everything else in this game.. why does that matter? against people with a clue it is a nearly pointless ability for a unit that really does deserve and need an actually useful ability.

[Troubleshooter]

"And Now They Shall, In Fact, Know Fear Again"

I LOLed. Um, Mark target, bionics sweep, booby traps, BiA, any nuke spell... there are plenty of "powers" that counter it just fine, but tactically, the simple counter is to move away for 20 seconds.

[Brenil]

... why does that matter? against people with a clue it is a nearly pointless ability for a unit that really does deserve and need an actually useful ability.

You're saying ATSKNF is... useless? Seriously? For the faults it has it has the equal positives in the right situation. For times when you need to lock-down an area, this ability makes the difference. The ability to turn your Tacticals into walking (albeit slowly walking) machines of destruction has several applications, even against skilled opponents. For every downside, there is an upside to this ability, which means that it is more or less balanced.

When you say it should be buffed, you don't say how, or really why (other than it is 'useless' against skilled opponents) other than a blanket statement based on your rather murky opinion. Why should it realistically be buffed, why it is in your view underpowered, and what would you do to make it more viable?

Until those questions are answered I don't really see the point you're attempting to make.