Fun or Funky ww2 facts?

[Wyrdlight]

So does any one have any?

I saw a documentory about Polish exile troops, they had a bear mascot they trained to lug ammo, when the time came to move into Italy the regiment refused to move unless the bear came with them, the answer? they gave the bear a rank and a ration card, he accompanied the regiment in Italy and at Monte Cassino and thier are pics of him helping to load ammo into trucks ect.

I believe he went back to Britain and lived out the rest of his life in a Zoo, when he died a bronze staue and plaque was erected and gets visits from Polish Tourists and decendants of those in the regiment to this very day :-)

[LloydyBoy]

i have loads of storys like these

heres 1 i read from a book

"in the early days from the battle of El Alamein, a squad from the British 7th Armoued Division (Desert Rats) had a mascot: Sandy the Jack Russel. 1 day the squad was returning to the frontlines in a truck, when germans attacked the truck they had taken the men prisinor and had comendered the truck, but the dirty sods they had kicked sandy from the truck and drove off, 2 weeks later the rest of the desert Rats were manning the frontlines, then in the sand they noticed Sandy running towards them, the men rejoiced and cheered and went to pet Sandy when they reached him they noticed a bullet wound and a toe missing but Sandy was as happy as ever they took him away to be treated up meanwhile 1 of the troops said "British dogs never give in to defeat". Weeks later the battle of El Alamein was won and troops reckon its because of Sandy's Bravery that boosted their Morale".

[Wyrdlight]

I got another one, the other day i found a book name "unsung heroes and villians of war" or somthing similar.

One of the charecters was a polish man miving in the UK, he went off to North Africa to fight. He never obeyed orders, swore at the officers and was found blind drunk on many occasions. He never advanced with the troops and refused to wear the correct uniform.

he would often disapear for weeks at a time with no word of his intentions.

One time, in the midst of a large offensive he disapered. Nothing was heard for several days until the offensive was over and the germans were pulling back the advancing Brits came across a german supply yard full fo fuel, ammo, food and booze.

Inside they found the madcap soldier in a german uniform blind drunk and smoking german smokes. In a back room were a number of german troops all tied up.

The man had stolen a german uniform, wandered in and killed and/or captured the entire german unit guarding the supply dump.

He refused the offer of a medal and went back to his drinking and his thievery i believe he went on to do several more mad things in a similar vein :-)

[Kirjava]

Awesome. Good finds, guys :)

[hanz gooblemien]

Dont Mess With Canadian War Dogs.[U]

In 1940, Gander (55kg Newfoundlander)was the family pet of Rod Hayden, a resident of the town of Gander in Newfoundland. The dog's name at that time was Pal. He was well known in the town, but often mistaken as a bear by pilots landing at the airport. This gentle giant was loved by the neighbourhood children who used him to tow their sleds during winter. One day, while greeting a group of children, Pal's paw accidentally scratched the face of a six year old. Concerned that the dog might have to be "put down", Mr. Hayden gave Pal to the 1 st Battalion of the Royal Rifles of Canada as a mascot. His new owners called him Gander, after the military base they were responsible for protecting during the war.

Gander and the Royal Rifles were sent to Hong Kong Island in 1941 where they joined other Commonwealth troops to defend the island against attacks by the Japanese. During the Battle of the Lye Mun, Gander displayed great bravery protecting his "newfound" friends. When the Japanese landed near the Canadian section of the beach, Gander greeted the enemy with threatening barks and attempts at biting their legs. On another occasion as Japanese troops were nearing a group of wounded Canadian soldiers, Gander surprised the enemy by charging them. For some reason, the Japanese were unwilling to shoot the dog. Instead, they changed their route and the lives of the wounded soldiers were saved.

Gander showed his greatest and last act of bravery and loyalty during another Japanese attack. During the battle, an enemy grenade landed near a group of Canadian soldiers. Probably out of concern for his friends, Gander grabbed the grenade in his mouth and carried it to where it would do no harm. Unfortunately, the grenade exploded in Gander's mouth, killing him instantly. He had given his life saving the lives of the Canadian soldiers.

The story of Gander's bravery, once well-known and told many times by residents of his home town, was almost forgotten. In a conversation between Mrs. Eileen Elms, who knew the dog as Pal and whose sister had been scratched by the dog, and local historian Mr. Frank Tibbo, Gander's act of bravery was mentioned. Through their efforts, Gander's story was revived and his act of bravery recognized.

Gander, the Newfoundland dog, was posthumously awarded the prestigious Dickin Medal, equivalent to the Victoria Cross given to soldiers of the British Commonwealth for their acts of bravery. Gander was awarded the medal in August, 2000 at a Hong Kong Veterans of Canada reunion in Fredericton, New Brunswick.

WOOF!

[LloydyBoy]

In Stalingrad 1942, hearing that nine attempts had failed to blow up a bridge over which the German Tanks were to arrive, a Russian woman partisan took her 1-year old daughter, wrapped in a bundle with a powerful time-bomb, and a basket of apples, to cross the bridge to go to the Market. the guard took some of her apples but let her pass. half way over, she stopped to change her wailing toddler's nappy and deftly attached the device to a girder. three hours later the Bridge blew up- and took a month to repair!

[Sturmhaubitze]

Kurt Knispel was an ethnic German born in Salisfled(Salisov) in Czechoslovaki who joined the Heer. He first served as the gunner for a Panzer IV, before ending up in the 503rd Heavy Tank Battalion as the commander of a Tiger I E. While his kill record is the highest of all German aces (Better than Michael Wittmann), you won't hear much of him because the military didn't promote him nor made any propaganda about him.

In fact they almost court martialed him.

His uniform was usually in bad shape, he didn't keep his facial hair in check, and often looked more like a beatnik or hippy than the elite of the Panzer branch. He beat the crap out of another German soldier when he noticed the man abusing a Soviet prisoner. The act that nearly did him in was when his crew came across a wrecked German train, and one of the cars was the personal car of a high-ranking officer. They looted the personal car, cramming their tank with as much chocolate and other foods as they could, and they were caught not long after with all their stolen goods.

Unfortunately he died just a few days before the war officially ended.

Rewind a bit to North Africa. This is an excerpt about a book by Steven Pressfield, called "War without Hate".

Rommel himself was one of the foremost practitioners of this knightly self-command. One famous incident reported in the British press tells of Afrika Korps troops overrunning a British field hospital in which both Axis and Allied soldiers were being cared for by the British staff, who had refused to withdraw in the face of the enemy approach but had insisted on remaining with their patients. When Rommel learned of this, he went personally to the hospital, shook the hand of every man and woman on the staff and with great emotion thanked them for their care of his men. He asked them to stay on until he could bring up his own doctors and nurses, to which the British readily agreed. Rommel deliberately did not take them prisoner (which might have set them at hazard once they were out of his direct care) but instead saw to it that they were repatriated through neutral Switzerland.

Rommel insisted that Allied prisoners receive the same rations and care that he did. Desmond Young (later a brigadier, who wrote the excellent Rommel The Desert Fox) tells the story of his own capture by the Germans. The battery that Young commanded remained unsubdued, though surrounded. An Afrika Korps officer held Young at gunpoint, demanding that Young order his men to hoist the white flag. Young told him to stuff it. The situation was getting a bit sticky, as the Brits might say, when suddenly a staff car chanced to appear, braking in a cloud of dust. Out stepped Rommel. As soon as the situation was explained to the Desert Fox, he upbraided his own officer for conduct in violation of the code of soldierly honor. The officer would have to find, Rommel declared, another way of solving the problem.

[say1988]

I don't want to make a write-up, but anyone who went into battle with a claymore, longbow, and bagpipes. And complained that the American involvement ct at least 10 years off the war. At one point capturing nearly 50 Germans with just one other man.

Meet Jack Churchill (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Churchill).

[Niftyeye]

Jack Churchill ftw, the British Chuck Norris.



As for Rommel.. I heard that the Afrika Corps were one of the only german armies to never be accused of war crimes, thanks to the efforts of the Commander, is that right?


Great topic, I love reading little stories like these ;)

[Sturmhaubitze]

The parachute used by the Fallschirmjäger was attached in such a manner that the jumper landed on their hands and knees. This increased the chances of the jumper suffering an injury that would put them out of the fight. It also greatly restricted what weapons the jumper could carry with them, so a weapon container was dropped for every squad, and it had their rifles and light machine-guns. This contributed to the heavy losses in airborne operations, as some Fallschirmjäger squads were unable to reach their container before coming under fire.

Soviet Ordnance deliberately made medium mortar so that they could make use of captured German ammunition, but Soviet ammunition could not be used in German weapons. While the US and Germans used 81mm mortars, the Soviets used an 82mm mortar that could fire the 81mm round.

[Busby]

Don't forget the American Bat Bomb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bat_bomb), or the Soviet Anti Tank Dogs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-tank_dog).

Unsinkable Sam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsinkable_Sam), was a black and white cat that was owned by a crewmen of the Bismark. After the Bismark sunk, the cat was found by the crew of HMS Cossack, hanging to a floating bored. Renamed Oscar, he lived on the Cossack for some time as its mascot, until it was torpedoed by U-563. All the crew were transferred to HMS Legion, but the Cossack sunk while being towed to safety. Now with his nickname, the cat was moved to HMS Ark Royal. Which was then sunk by U-81. Due to the slow rate of sinking, all the crew, and Unsinkable Sam, were saved, by the same HMS Legion that rescued the crew of HMS Cossack. Oscar/Unsinkable Sam was then moved to Gibraltar, then Belfast, before dying in 1955.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/da/Blackie_and_Churchill.jpg

Prime Minister Winston Churchill encounters a ship's cat. He restrains Blackie, the mascot of HMS Prince of Wales, from joining an American destroyer, while the ship's company stand to attention during the playing of the National Anthem. (Wikipedia)

Meow.

[Worf]

Please people, stay as serious as a thread like this can be and don't spam or drag it off topic.

Thanks.

[LloydyBoy]

"in Arhnem 1944 (Operation Market Garden) Men from 2nd battalion of the 1st airborne division, were pinned down In Arnhem. Urquhart was moved by the enormous bravery and courage by the men in the house-to-house fighting. it had its funny side, however. in one bombardment a soldier remarked, "Well they've thrown everything but the kitchen Stove." as he spoke, a explosion rocked the building, showering the men with plaster, laths and, incredibly, a cooker. picking himself out of the debris, he added, "i knew the Bastards were close - but i didn't think they could hear us".

[Lord Abaddon]

The first bomb to be dropped on Berlin by the Allies killed the only elephant the Germans had in their ZOO, Guido I think.

[LloydyBoy]

The German Navy did not distinguish itself on D-Day. just 3 E-Boats put in a chance apperence and, as the mist cleared, their commander found himself surrounded. however, before turning tail, he ordered his boats to launch all of their Torpedoes in the general dirction of the enemy. the Torpedoes sailed through the the entire fleet until, on the far side, the Combined Ops HQ Ship, HMS Largs, had to go astern smartly to avoid them. finally, one sank an unlucky destroyer- But the rest of the Fleet escaped scot free

[Wraith V]

not really from WW2 but the gun is

its about the bofors 40mm anti aircraft gun

The Canadian Forces also used Bofors on their surface fleet, but removed the guns in the late 1980s when they were considered to be outdated. In a somewhat embarrassing episode, the navy was forced to scour various military museums across Canada to re-equip their fleet during the Gulf War, as replacements had never been purchased

[LloydyBoy]

In Sicily 1943 American troops landing in the South Easten of Sicily found an abandoned Italian Command Post and went in to look around. amoung the first in was an American Correspondent of International News Service, who spoke fluent Italian and, when the phone rang, he answered it. The Caller was a high ranking Italian Officer who wanted to know if the rumors were true, that the Allies had Invaded, the bilingual American replied that of course it wasnt true. the officer replied "Fine" and hung up.

[say1988]

Wriath:
That reminds me of WWII events:

At the start of the war Canada had barely any artillery guns, so the troops were trained by aiming logs. This went to the extent that even after their training was officially over some early units still only had logs and had not fired their guns, until they got mid 19th century cannons with wooden wheels. Some of these men went on to be named the best gunners (not sure what unit size this was for) in Britain in '43.

[Cossack]

During the German occupation of 1941-1943 in Kharkov in the Derzhprom (it is a small skyscraper) at the beginning of the occupation lived monkeys, who escaped from the zoo what is near. Until August 23, 1943 three rhesus macaques survived in Derzhprom. At the 65th anniversary of the liberation of Kharkov in August 2008 the monument to this macaques was opened on the territory of the zoo.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/df/Gosprom_Kharkiv.jpg
http://kp.ua/upimg/logo/64770.jpghttp://image.newsru.ua/pict/id/large/97498_20080822182037.jpg

[chelovek_veliki]

The monkey thing is awesome.

[Kirjava]

All of these are awesome. And the prank call one is hilarious- how typical is it that it's the Italian army that gets fooled by something like that? Fantastic.

[Panzer General]

I like the prank call one.

[LloydyBoy]

One of the Most famous Pictures of the War was the russians Raising the Flag over the Reichstag , was, infact a reconstruction of a scene which took place by night. Knowing the moment would be re-enacted, an outstanding Soviet war photographer got permission from Marshal Zhukov to shoot the scene from the air, then, unauthorized, flew to Moscow. the next day he flew back to Berlin bearing an armful of copies of the newspaper, Pravda. For him, the crowning glory was his photo on the cover - a wartime photo Scoop!

http://www.smithnr.com/VictoryDayReichstag.jpg

[Niftyeye]

Got a couple found on another site

* The first American serviceman killed was killed by the Russians (Finland 1940).

* The first German serviceman killed in the war was killed by the Japanese (China, 1937)


* Following a massive naval bombardment, 35,000 US and Canadian troops stormed ashore at Kiska. 21 troops were killed in the fire-fight. It would have been worse if there had been Japanese on the island

A number of air crewmen died of farts. (ascending to 20,000 ft. in an un-pressurized aircraft causes intestinal gas to expand 300%!)

Among the first “Germans” captured at Normandy were several Koreans. They had been forced to fight for the Japanese Army until they were captured by the Russians and forced to fight for the Russian Army until they were captured by the Germans and forced to fight for the German Army until they were capture by the US Army.


I have no idea how many of these are true or just exaggerated.. they seem quite.. bizarre lol

[say1988]

I know for a fact the first 3 are true, though not certain of the numbers on the third (booby traps and friendly fire are not fun) in fact I think the casualties were higher.

On the subject of Kiska Island, though. The previous night during the evacuation the Japanese sighted the nearby island of Little Kiska, and thought it was an American fleet and shelled it and tried to torpedo it.

A quick wiki says 122 men lost, including missing and presumed dead, and the sinking of a ship that hit a mine.

It also comes up with a great quote:

Admiral Ernest King reported to the secretary of the Navy, Frank Knox, that the only things that remained on the island were dogs and fresh brewed coffee. Knox asked for an explanation and King responded, "The Japanese are very clever. Their dogs can brew coffee."

The fourth, I believe has an egg of truth, but overall is false. I don't see many WWII aircraft climbing fast enough that the body can't compensate, though it is possible that things like that occurred.

The last is one I have heard many times, and found awesome, but will not take as truth until I see something solid.

[Sturmhaubitze]

The Bergetiger for the Panzer Elite faction was actually a munitions-handling conversion that was used solely in Italy, and not a recovery vehicle at all. The mistake arose due to its crane, but that crane cannot possibly lift or tow an armoured vehicle. Not to mention using the turret for its foundation is critically flawed from an engineering standpoint. Real Bergetigers were turretless, and tended to be based off of the Porsche prototype Tiger chassis, which was used more commonly for the Ferdinand and Elefant tank hunters. Bergetigers were rare in any case, and most recovery vehicles for towing heavy tanks were Bergepanthers.


While the Germans made use of captured Soviet vehicles on many occasions as replacement vehicles, the Soviets made use of them during the Bagration campaign as tools of deception. Spetsnaz teams were issued various German vehicles, most notably SdKfz 251/1 half-tracks and some medium tanks, as a means of deceiving German defenders. These captured vehicles, still bearing the paint jobs and markings of German units, would travel ahead of an actual Soviet force. German units would initially see the forward Spetsnaz element and think the rest of the force was a retreating German formation, giving the Soviet force a chance to close the distance on dug-in defenders.


The 21st Panzer Division in Normandy was outfitted with a very large percentage of converted French vehicles. Oberst Alfred Becker was in charge of overseeing the modification efforts in turning much of the French armoured vehicles into various transports and self-propelled guns, so that the 21st would be properly mechanized. The SOMUA MCG5 artillery tractor became a half-track transport for the Pioneers, a PaK40-bearing self-propelled gun, a multiple-mortar launcher, and a multiple-rocket launcher. The Hotchkiss H39 was used for assault guns bearing PaK40s (as per the Geschützwagen) or 105mm leFH18 howitzers. The Lorraine Schlepper was converted into a self-propelled artillery piece (105mm or 150mm) and observation vehicle. And finally the Unic P107 light artillery tractor became the half-track for the Armoured Panzergrenadiers, as well as a self-propelled anti-aircraft gun with a FlaK38 20mm. These vehicles were already old before D-Day, so were prone to breaking down, and replacement parts were not in abundance. Their Motorized Panzergrenadiers used whatever trucks they could find, resulting in companies that rarely had more than two trucks from the same country, let alone the same model. This odd usage of captured and modified foreign vehicles on a massive scale earned it the nickname Rommel's Circus.

Prior to D-Day, they still had one Panzer Battalion outfitted with a motley assortment of Panzer IVs (Both newer H models, and older models with short-barreled KwK37 75mm guns), SOMUA tanks, and Hotchkiss tanks. Before the division was sent forward, all but the newer Panzer IV H tanks were disbanded, and never saw combat.

[Cossack]

It is good that this Bergetiger existed.

[LloydyBoy]

Joseph John Spillane,a remarkable baseball fielder and thrower, was on "the Old Lady" an Amtrac at the Tarawa Landings. as a hail of Hand Grenades fell, Spillane fielded them catching them in Mid Air, and lobbed them back. thus taking out a Japanese Machine Gun Emplacement . the sixth grenade, however, exploded in his hand, so, as the crew whom he had saved stormed the Japs' sea wall, he had to wait behind. not for him the glory of getting ashore - he had to suffer until a ship's surgeon could amputate his Shredded throwing hand, thus, ruining his Baseball Career

[say1988]

I am sure after having a grenade blow up in your hand the end of your civilian career is of low importance.

[Panzer General]

Indeed. He should be glad he survived!

[Lord Abaddon]

And when he goes home what's he going to live of? Oh, I forgot, America actually has enough money to afford to pay for military pensions :D

[LloydyBoy]

yea but the thing he enjoys so much is now ruined he cant play baseball no more

[Tom 1561]

And don't forget the beast of Ohama beach. Who killed minimum 2000 men with his
mg-42. http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=62104

[chelovek_veliki]

This is from the pages of my much-loathed Daily Mail, but here we have the luckiest, or unluckiest, man alive:

Meet 'Lucky' Yamaguchi, the only man to have survived both Hiroshima AND Nagasaki atomic bomb blasts

By Mail Foreign Service
Last updated at 9:24 PM on 24th March 2009

A man of 93 has become the first person certified as a survivor of both the U.S. atomic bombs dropped on Japan at the end of the Second World War.

Tsutomu Yamaguchi appears to be the only person in history to have survived not one, but two atomic bomb blasts.
But does this make him the luckiest man in the world - or the unluckiest...?

Yamaguchi had already been a certified 'hibakusha,' or radiation survivor, of the August 9, 1945, atomic bombing in Nagasaki.

But he has now been confirmed as surviving the attack on Hiroshima three days earlier as well, city officials said.

Yamaguchi was in Hiroshima on a business trip on August 6, 1945, when a U.S. B-29 dropped an atomic bomb on the city.

He suffered serious burns to his upper body and spent the night in the city.

Traumatised, he then sought the refuge of his hometown - Nagasaki.

With devastating timing, he arrived just in time for the second attack, city officials said.

'As far as we know, he is the first one to be officially recognised as a survivor of atomic bombings in both Hiroshima and Nagasaki,' Nagasaki city official Toshiro Miyamoto said.

'It's such an unfortunate case, but it is possible that there are more people like him.'

It is unclear why it has taken so long for Yamaguchi to be recognised.

Certification qualifies survivors for government compensation - including monthly allowances, free medical checkups and funeral costs - but Yamaguchi will not get double compensation, Miyamoto said.

Yamaguchi is one of about 260,000 people who survived the attacks. Bombing survivors have developed various illnesses from radiation exposure, including cancer and liver illnesses.
Enlarge An aerial view of the ground zero site in Nagasaski before the atomic bomb was dropped

Details of Yamaguchi's health problems were not released.
Thousands survivors continue to seek official recognition after the government rejected their eligibility for compensation.

The government last year eased the requirements for being certified as a survivor, following criticism the rules were too strict and neglected many who had developed illnesses that doctors have linked to radiation.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1164391/Meet-Lucky-Yamaguchi-man-survived-Hiroshima-AND-Nagasaki-atomic-bomb-blasts.html

[Wolfleader]

Among the troops defending the Normany beaches on D-Day were Korean soldiers who had been pressed into service after being captured by the Germans from the Soviets (they were conscripted into service by the Japanese but were captured by the Soviets who then pressed them into service for their forces)

Link (http://thomo.coldie.net/wargaming/korean-soldiers-in-ww2-german-army)

[chelovek_veliki]

There actually are still quite a large number of Koreans in the Russian Far East who were slave laborers brought in by the Japanese or their descendents.

[**Spetsnaz**]

Stalin had 6 toes on his left foot ^^

Molotov was sent by Stalin to London for talks between the new-found allies. When some Lord asked Churchill how the talks were getting along, Churchill answered: " it's a bit difficult to progress as Molotow only speak 2 words of English "second" and "front".... "

the personnel of the mansion where Molotov had been housed, found hes was a bit weird as well; he locked his doors from the inside, slept with a gun under his pillow and always someone else to tatse his food before he ate...

[Jake]

@Spetsnaz: Considering who he worked for, I'd call that learned behaviour.

[chelovek_veliki]

Locked doors and food-tasters aren't going to protect you against the NKVD, who had a more direct approach. (I can't recollect Stalin ever poisoning anybody; his executions were usually publicized and preceded by arrest, except in the cases of Mikhoels and Trotsky and maybe Kirov -- assuming Stalin had Kirov killed and it wasn't a jealous husband. Anyway.) If the story isn't apocryphal, he was more than likely worried about German assassins.

[**Spetsnaz**]

his executions were usually publicized and preceded by arrest, except in the cases of Mikhoels and Trotsky and maybe Kirov -- assuming Stalin had Kirov killed and it wasn't a jealous husband. Anyway.)

Kirov, and as far as im concerned Ordjonikidze as well.
not to mention Kamenev & Zinovjev, or Nadia.....as well as countless others

i still think the collectivisation was his biggest crime however.

iv just finished the excellent Djeti Arbata (Children of the Arbat) series by Anatoli Rybakov - it really portrays well the total terror in which people lived in that time

[chelovek_veliki]

Kamenev and Zinoviev were killed after show trials. They were not assassinated. Nadia was probably a suicide.

Deti Arbata refers to the experiences of the Soviet intelligentsia -- mostly Communist Party members, people close to power, the people the Terror was targeting. I mean, they live ON THE ARBAT. It's right there in the title. The average person in the USSR -- who was a peasant -- saw what is now known as the Terror as something happening far away, affecting other people he didn't care about. Members of the elite killing other members of the elite.

EDIT: The Arbat being where such people lived.

EDIT 2: People do tend to forget that the Terror was mostly Communists killing other Communists.

YET ANOTHER EDIT: This probably doesn't belong in a Fun and Funky Facts thread.

[LloydyBoy]

i got another 1

in Market Garden Delighted to have landed a mere 300 yards from the site of his intended HQ. Brigadier Hackett's Equilibrium was upset only by the loss of his ash-plant walking Stick in the jump. as the battle raged around him, he searched for it, pausing only to see that a wounded Para was treated. On finding 10 German Soldiers in a huddle, ready to surrender, he ordered them in German, "Wait here. I'll see to you presently." his search finnaly rewarded. he returned to the Prisinors and marched them to his HQ

[Carl]

Got 7 more random one's, all 617 related, from the dambusters novel, (very old novel).

All but 2 take place after the dambusters raid and after D-Day:

1. A group of new zelanders joined 617, on their first day there, or rather night they where welcomed with a party before heading back to the baraks, where they promptly found a need for the loo to relive excess water shall we say. Unable to fuind the loo but enterprising young gentelmen they used a window. The following day they where calld to the station commanders office, where they where politely but firmly informed that as long as they did their jobs well they could get away with a lot of things on the station, but one they could not get away with was widdling on the station commander. The poor fellow had been passing directly underneath the window at the moment they chose to utulise it.

2. Immidietly after D-Day 617 newly outfitted with 5 ton Tallboy bombs was ordered to give them there first feild test by blowing up a rail tunnel the germans planned to use to move panzers to the fropnt lines with from the low coubntries. All of the bombs fell on target destroying the tunnel save one which, (to roughly quote the book): "Fell amongst a group of approximetly 100 frenchmen, they didn't mind though having been dead since the first world war, the bomb fell on an old WWI cemtray just a short distance from the tunnel entrance.

3. To come back to our new zelanders, some time later ona return flight one of the aircraft was ambushed by a night fighter, whle the aircraft survived it's rear gunner was cut in 2 by the fighters cannon shells. When the aircraft landed the orderlies who came to remove the body where so freaked out by the condition of the body they proptly collapsed in hyterics and had to be carried off by the other aircrew. Meanwhile one of the new zelanders known for his unflabbability calmly removed the remains and placed them in a body bag for the orderlies without so much as batting an eyelid at it.

4. In the run up to the dambusters raid there where numerous incedents of pilots staging late night shooting contests, (they'd been issued weaponry because of fears of a paratrooper attack, and got left with them for a bit), after several nights of this they where ordered by their CO not to discharge any weapon on premesis, except at known jerries. The very next night a rat that was a persistant nuicence f said CO comes scurrying past said CO's window and wakes him up. Said CO snatches up his .45 colt revolver and bags it shooting out the window and giving a trimphent cry, at which point one of the pilots comments qryly that the CO had said just the previous day that anyone discharging a weapon at anything but a jerrie was going to be in serious bother...

5. In a similar vein a favirote prank of bored pilots and aircew was to drop very cartriges down peoples chimmenys, the effect of which (to quote the book again): is compareble to a very small, concentrated, and highly coulourful bombing raid". Whilst i forget the chimmney they WHERE ainming for, the chimmney they where most defintly not aiming for was the station commanders, who promptly ran out red faced and angry glowering up at the 3 perpetratours who where hiding behind his chimmny. They spent the next 3 days pealing potatos for their trouble, and the pranks with very cartriges finnally stopped.

6. The squodrons last CO was an american. 617 was from their 3rd mission in a precishion bomber unit. one requierment they found was accurret target marking and bomber commanders pathfinders just whern't accurrete enough so 617 began their own target marking. they started with dive bombing runs in a lancaster, quickly switched to a mosquito, and at this stage they decided top switch to a P51 Mustang, this was the first mission with it, a day mission against a V1 site. the new CO was flying the marking P51 which he dropped smoke flares on target with. however there was enough haze in the air that from their high bombing altitude, (a necessity for their special bomb sights to work), they couldn't pick out the smoke from the markers through the haze so the CO in his shiny mustang went right down to deck level and flew a tight predictable circle telling the aquodron to usie the glint from his wings to aim for, he went on flying liek that for several minutes while they tried to pick the glint out but they where unable to do so. so they headed home, when they got back his aircraft had over 2000 holes in it and shrapnel had narrowlliy missed his glycol coolant tank (which was not self sealing). The squodrons lukewarm opinion of their new CO, (the only american they ever had), markedly improved adfter that incedent.

7. During one of their last bombing missions against the bridges over the rhur they attacked one with a mixture of talboys and grand slams, the first 2 talboys hit at the exact same moment at the exact base of the 2 support pilliars blowing them out and cuasing the entire bridge to lift visibly into the air, (and they where bombing from 20,000Ft here so it was no small raise), then a pair of tallboys slammed in diorect hit into the outer 2 of the 3 spans, and at the exact same moment a grandslam hit the centre span, detonating more or less simultaniusly they reduced the entire bridge to dust, the germans didn't find a single surving brick afterwards. As one of the pilots put it: "we couldn't juplicate that if we tried."

8. Right after the end of the war a group of old 617 survivours formed a company for experimental; aviation. One day one of them commented that they might just end up flying tp the moon, the otherr 3 just gave him a funny look. a week later sputnik 1 was luanched, and the res is history.

[LloydyBoy]

also with the dambusters (not sure if you've mentioned this) is that they destroyed the V3 SuperCannon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-3_cannon)

The plans were to have the first battery of five gun tubes ready for March 1944, and the full complex of 25 gun tubes by 1 October 1944. However, following a failure at the Misdroy proving ground in April 1944 after only 25 rounds had been fired, the project was further cut back, from five drifts to three even though work had begun on some of the other drifts. The site was finally put out of commission on 6 July 1944, when bombers of RAF Bomber Command's 617 Squadron attacked using 5,400 kilograms (12,000 lb) "Tallboy" deep-penetration bombs.

One Tallboy directly impacted the concrete slab on top of the complex, collapsing Drift IV, and three other Tallboys penetrated the tunnel system below creating extensive damage. Some effort was made to clean up the debris, but by late July it was obvious that the damage was too severe to justify continuing construction, since the RAF could well conduct further Tallboy raids. Plans were made to reconstruct the gun battery at the Rixtent B81 liquid oxygen facility, but this never occurred. The Allies were, however, unaware that work had ceased at Mimoyecques, and further missions were flown against the site. A mission was flown on 6 August 1944, as part of Operation Aphrodite, using drone B-17s laden with explosives, but none of the targets were hit. A further mission was flown on 12 August which again resulted in failure, and the death of Joseph P. Kennedy, Jr..

[Carl]

also with the dambusters (not sure if you've mentioned this) is that they destroyed the V3 SuperCannon

I was aware of it, but thats more an intresting squodron fact as apposed to genuinlly funny or funky. if you wanted to get into all that you'd practiclly have to copy the whole book out, the whole of 617's histroy WA Funny, Tragic, funky, and downright intresting facts.

[Hi I'm Greg]

Some of these are very funny, the kitchen sink, the walking stick among others. Some are a lot more harrowing like the Beast of Omaha.

I remember hearing a story a few years back about allied journalists in Italy during the war found themselves by themselves with a patrol of Italian soldiers walking toward them. So instead of reaching for the pistol they had they grabbed their cameras. The Italians started fixed their uniforms and combing their hair for the photographic. Stereotypical vain Italians I guess.

[Niftyeye]

Beast of Omaha... wow, what an interesting story, its interesting how it said on one of the final lines 'If he was the victor, he would of been branded a war hero'

[absauston]

This is from a book called Secret Weapons of World War II. One of many short stories in the book.


In the first week of May 1944 as the Allies' cross-Channel invasion from England neared, a rash of nervous tics erupted among top commanders in SHAEF. Ultra had just picked up an alarming directive in which Adolf Hitler ordered his military leaders to "watch Normandy."

In obedience to that order, elderly Field Marshal Gerd von Rundstedt the commander in the West, began making the kinds of changes in troop dispositions that might be expected if the German high command knew that Normandy was to be the site of the Allied Landings.

From his headquarters in suburban Paris, von Rundstedt began to almost double the antitank and antiaircraft defenses in Normandy. Most frightening of all to SHAEF was von Rundstedt's order that rushed Major General Wilhelm Falley's first-rate 91st Luftlande Division into the same area in which the 82nd Airborne and 101st Airborne Divisions were to drop in the early-morning darkness of D-Day. Falley's outfit had been specially trained to fight enemy paratroopers and glidermen.

Why had Hitler suddenly focused his attention on Normandy? Had his highly efficient intelligence agencies unraveled the secrets of Neptune, the assault phase of the invasion? Or had German scientists developed some amazing apparatus, similar to the British Ultra, whereby the führer and his high command had a pipeline directly into SHAEF?

Actually, it had been the radio-monitoring and cryptanalytical service-the Funkabwehr- that had triggered the flurry of German movements in Normandy only a few weeks before the June 6, 1944, D-Day.

The Funkabwehr had been responsible for breaking an amazing series of enemy codes and ciphers during the war. It had totally penetrated the French system, and it had broken every Soviet cryptosystem, from the high command in Moscow down through battalions on the front line. The Funkabwehr would claim that its codebreakers had easily penetrated American radio traffic because of poor security.

British radio communications were the most closely guarded, and the Funkabwehr never was able to penetrate high-echelon cryptosystems. However, the German sleuths had enjoyed great success in analyzing the characteristic patterns, especially the radio traffic, of the Royal Air Force signals system. Funkabwehr officials would later state that codebreakers had been able to deduce carefully guarded British Army plans from lax security measures by the RAF.

While a buildup for the invasion of Normandy was unfolding in England in the spring of 1944, a security lid was clamped tightly on U.S. and British radio units. This action resulted in near-panic of the Funkabwehr, whose mission was to discover Allied plans. Relying only on an analysis of the Anglo-American radio messages and an occasional leak, the German electronics sleuths were able to piece together just a hazy portrait of the might force being assembled by Allied Supreme Commander Dwight D. Eisenhower.

Then, in late April, only six weeks before the Normandy assault, the Funkabwehr made a remarkable discovery. After intensive study of the radio message stations of the scores of U.S. and British divisions in England, the German codebreakers realized that air liaison had been assigned to certain divisions. Their task was to coordinate air-support operations with ground troops.

From this startling revelation, the German cryptanalysts concluded that these were assault divisions to which the air liaison officers were being assigned, and that these units were preparing for a cross-Channel operation.

Although the Anglo-American deception artists filled the air with fake radio messages, the Funkabwehr was able to tune in on all of the divisions in southwestern and southern England broadcasting air-liasion messages. Consequently the German codebreakers were able to comprehend, with an amazing degree of accuracy, that der Grossinvasion was imminent and that the Allies would strike along the Bay of the Seine, between the major ports of Cherbourg and Le Havre-the true landing beaches.

Now the daunting problem was for the Funkabwehr to convince Adolf Hitler, who largely distrusted radio intelligence, that the information was accurate. To the astonishment of the German codebreakers, the führer on this occasion paid some attention. Now he realized that Normandy was vulnerable to an invasion, so he had ordered reinforcements that had been giving General Eisenhower and other Allied commanders sleepless nights.

However, because Hitler had been hoodwinked by and ingenious Allied deception plan code-named Bodyguard, he remained convinced that the main enemy landings would take place at the Pas De Calais, the narrowest part of the English Channel, some two hundred miles northeast of the invasion beaches. So the führer had been merely covering all bets by strengthening Normandy defenses on virtually the eve of D-Day.

[Ultimatum]

Was reading Tv tropes and saw this:

"On D-Day, the British troops started to make tea on Sword Beach almost as soon as they landed, even though they were still under fire. Later, after the beaches were taken and troops started to move inland, the Americans got upset over reports that the British stopped advancing to make tea, as the plan called for soldiers to advance until nightfall in order to capture as much ground before the expected German counter attack"

:)

[Wafflegod]

Lol? How can you make tea when you're still under fire?

[Carl]

Thats us british for you:p.

[Akranadas]

I honestly wouldn't take anything Tvtropes says as truth,

[DeafMute]

Smells like bullshit to me.

[LloydyBoy]

heres 1 more from me:

"on D-Day, Sword Beach, 1 man Cpl.Harry Thompson was incredibly Eager to get the germans on the beach his men told him to calm down he even got a warning from the squads Sgt. when their Landing Craft hit the beach, Thompson Sprinted to a German bunker while under Constant withering fire from the MGs inside, he threw a Pinapple in and climbed to the top, he shouted to his men "forward guys, lets get the Bastards." he felt almost Invinicible straight after he shouted, he jumped off the bunker 13ft above ground and accidently landed on his knee and he Cried in agony yelling for someone to help him. when the Sgt Came he had recalled a German Boy Shooting him in the knee, but the Sgt Replied, its only a little Flesh Wound come on get up and get them like you shouted, but the Cpl insisted he stay back and patch up his knee, and he missed the whole Battle

[Wyrdlight]

Here are some from the Finland-Russian war.

In the winter war between Russia and Finland one of the common forms of battlefield injuries amongst Finnish troops was was mental damage and psychological trauma.

This was commonly suffered by Finnish machine gunners who, during the opening attacks by the Russians mowed down hundreds of Russian troops every day, the constant mind-numbing slaughter of so many people, day in day out resulted in many Finnish troops quite literally losing there minds.

A Finnish ski trooper was seen to attack and disable a Russian tank with a crow bar, prising the treads off by hand.

The main method of dealing with Russian tanks, alongside molotovs was the humble log, dozens of Russian tanks were disabled by Finnish troops, running up to them and jamming logs and rocks into their tracks.

The Russians finally made a breakthrough and a division (i think) poured through the Finnish lines, rather than pushing forwards and severing the Finnish lines of supply and retreat they followed their noses, and their stomachs.
rations were so poor that most only had black bread and tea to sustain them, many were starving and when they caught the scent of Finnish sausage soup they could not help themselves, ignoring their orders, and the threats of the political officers they stormed the Finnish field kitchens and gorged themselves senseless on sausages and soup.
This allowed the Finns to re-group and push the Russians back and re-establish their line.

All those Fins who died in service, whose bodies were recovered were dressed in their best, packed into coffins and sent back home for burial, the Finns were the only nation (i believe) that are known to have done this.

A Finnish Ski trooper was famed for his hatred of the Russians and his sense of the chillingly macabre, attributed to him was the creepy scene found in the dense woodland on the North Eastern Front. A Russian patrol was found with their throats cut and frozen solid, all standing up and posed for dramatic effect.

Naval guns can be very effective when used against tanks and infantry. In what must be one of the few cases in recorded history of fixed shore-defence emplacements being used to defeat a land-based army. The Russians crossed the frozen ocean, the Fins response was to use the massive coastal defence batteries which shattered the sea ice and sent thousands of men and dozens of tanks plunging into the ocean, never to be seen again.

[Carl]

Naval guns can be very effective when used against tanks and infantry.

Anyone who knows anything about them knows that. They fire truly enormous shells. A 12" gun fires a projectile weighing roughly 1000Lb's and a 15" fires a 2000Lb round. The big American 16" guns fired 3000Lb shells and the Japanese had 18" guns with even heavier shells, (i've never found exact technical data for those guns unfortunatly).

Since WW2 era bombs and HE shells had about the same powder to weight ratios you can treat them as air dropped bombs of similar weight. When you realise that Naval guns where dropping 1000 pound bombs, (or larger) on the opponnent, and that many large costal gun batteries had several guns, well it's the equivelent of a small concentrated bombing attack with every salvo.

[Wyrdlight]

Carl : I was attempting to be sarcastic :-)

[Carl]

Oh, sorry wyrdlight;). I find that a lot of people without a fondness for the old battleships don't tend to realise just how powerful the old battleship guns really where. They get it into their heads that air dropped bombs are in some way vastly more destructive.

In reality the precishion fire control systems of WWII battleships made them far more accurrate than most bombers, they just suffer from limited range.

[Pyro Paul]

battleships where lobbing things more explosive and deadly than a 1k bomb. to be honost, battleships are still one of the deadliest things ever built, it is just in the modern age when precision is key, the battleship which is more built for saturation just doesn't fit the role any more.


a Mark 7 APC 16/50 shell is capable of penetrating some 30 feet of concrete.
something that no bunker buster bomb has been capable of matching.

however when you consider a bunker buster can take out a house and only that house where as a mk. 7 APC 16/50 will take out the house as well as the two neighbors on either side with heavy damage to those houses in close proximity... it is easy to understand why we went on air power rather than heavy gun dependence.

[say1988]

The main reason battleships are no longer used is that smaller, cheaper, more versatile ships can do most of their jobs, while more mobile and versatile aircraft can do the rest.
From my research both the Mark 7 guns and Bunkerbusters are supposed to penetrate 20 feet of concrete, but even if you increase this, most targets are capable of being destroyed by bombers and all you have to do is move 40km inland and the battleship is useless (adding to that optimal penetration is at less than 20km).
It may have a role, but not one worth the cost of the ship.

In WWII even, the primary role of US battleships was as escorts for carriers with large complements of AA guns and their heavy guns if enemy ships attacked. This can all be done more effectively with a few smaller ships armed with SAMs and anti-ship cruise missiles. The Iowas were equipped with these in the '80s, but it simply isn't cost effective and more restrictive as you can't spread the weapons out their size restricts them from some channels and ports.

The secondary job of coastal bombardment can largely also be filled by cruise missiles and aircraft. And even in WWII plenty of prepared Japanese positions survived shelling from Iowas and other 16" guns.

A battleships value is so limited that it isn't worth the expense couple thousand people to keep it going. They are much like the King Tiger was, they provide some benefits, but are not worth the time and effort.
Especially when moving away from a WWII scenario to more limited guerrilla campaigns and such. As well as more closely watched finances that stress versatility.

[Sturmhaubitze]

Despite the firepower of a warship's guns, only one bunker on Omaha beach was knocked out by naval gunfire, and only because it's firing slit was poorly angled so that a shell could be lobbed directly into the structure. The rest survived the intense shelling.

[Carl]

@Pyro:

I'f you'd read my OP you'd have realised that when i refered to 1000LB bombs i was tlaking in regards to the 12" calibre. A common calibre amongst older shore batteries and second rate navies, as well as many 1st rate navies older ships.

The shell you refference weighs 2700Lb's. So of course it's more powerful.


You also show a remarkable lack of common sense when attributing power to the shell.

The reason for lack of modern air dropped bombs power is a combination of their being few true armour peircing designs, and a general lack of supersonic laydown being used. This leads to significantly slower impact velocities for the bombs when compared to the battleship shells.


Battleships where retiered for one simple reason.

Range.

Precishion and destructuive power had nothing to do with it. In fact if you compare 617's bombing record vs. stationery shipping to the pounding Bismark took when she was sunk, the bombers did far worse, (and 617 was unarguably the most accurrate high level squodron of the war bar none). 617 got an estimated 10% hit rate, Rodney and King George the V managed an estimatied 20-30%.

Battleships could just mount the massive old fashioned fire control computers needed back then for accurrate fire.

Likewise at the time Bunkers and other hard targets where common, the destructive potentiol was in no way overdone.

The simple issue was that while a battelship could, (and still can), utterly decimate a carrier battlegroup it got near, it was allmost impossible for it to get near them. Battelships in the immidiete post WW2 era lacked the kind of precishion AAA guidance that makes ariel attacks on ships of any size so suicidal today, (well when they have the overhead radar to give them advance warning).

Today their best role by far is Shore bombradment, it's a role their uniquely suited to, and somthing any aircraft or other ship type, in a real major war situation, just isn't able to do as effectivlly.

Unfortunatly to truly take advantage of it they very much need a major upgrade in the form of an entierly new design. The old ships have too many limitations at the role, (because they where originolly designed to fight other battleships armoured in a foot or more of solid steel, and because they where built to whashington treaty naval limitations).

[PacPomarnacki]

Going back to the earlier British Tea fixation, I cant say if they making it on the Beaches thing is true but I recently visited the Pegasus Bridge museum in France and they had a display of this.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/PacPomarnacki/PICT0839.jpg

Its a bit blurry but its a Thermos taken by the British 6th Airborne landing at Pegasus bridge that contained, yes thats right, Tea! It also had video footage of the Airborne standing around a few hours after they had landed drinking tea around their crashed Gliders. So it is true to some extent, you might be in a war but there's always time for tea :)

[Busby]

Battleships will never come back. Simply put in today's missile-heavy world they are simply too vulnerable, as are all surface ships (see, Falklands war) to any fighter jock with a anti-ship missile, land based batteries, and other possible launch platforms including the already, "I'm in ur task force, pewing ur carrier," submarines. I predict that in the future there won't be such thing as surface warships any more. They all will have taken the protection of depths.


Ooo tea!

[say1988]

Its a bit blurry but its a Thermos taken by the British 6th Airborne landing at Pegasus bridge that contained, yes thats right, Tea! It also had video footage of the Airborne standing around a few hours after they had landed drinking tea around their crashed Gliders. So it is true to some extent, you might be in a war but there's always time for tea
But I bet you could also find examples of American troops drinking coffee or anybody drinking whatever they drink.
I expect that occasions where their tea took priority the mission at hand, at least on large scale, are few and far between. In your example it is likely that it was a lull in the action and they got a drink and possibly a bite to eat before more Germans arrived. Just like how even modern British tanks are equipped with a kettle, which is likely a heck of a lot more useful than it initially sounds, especially if you end up fighting in cold weather.

[Carl]

Battleships will never come back. Simply put in today's missile-heavy world they are simply too vulnerable, as are all surface ships (see, Falklands war) to any fighter jock with a anti-ship missile, land based batteries, and other possible launch platforms including the already, "I'm in ur task force, pewing ur carrier," submarines. I predict that in the future there won't be such thing as surface warships any more. They all will have taken the protection of depths.


I know this is majorly getting off-topic but i feel the need to correct stupid people on silly things like this.

Main points:

1. Subm,arines are only silent when travling slowly, if they go too fast not only do they generate noise due to cavitation, but the simple sound of water rushing past the hull becomes detectable evetually.

2. Carriers travel far faster than a sub can silently move. This means no submarine can close from the rear on a carrier or ship formation.

3. Carrier maintain Active sonar scanning at significant distances from the carrier. this means no submarine can get close to the carrier, (even by sitting un-moving on the bottom), from he sides or rear.

4. in short it is impossibble for a submarine to get near enough to be dangerous to any prepared surface group, so long as it has a handful of helicopters to establish the distant active sonar screens. Somthing all modern surface forces above a certian size posses.

5. Submarines are primarilly useful for their ability to pick off lone ships and unprepared forces, as well as sneak up on and attack any target anywhere in the world without warning. Ultimetly their the sea vershion of gurillea fighters. Only their ability to carry, (in some cases), SLBM's gives them any truely terrifying power.



6. No, battleships in their old role are not coming back. For obvious reasons. But if we have another major war i predict we'll see battleship like shore bombardment platforms built. Their ability via armour to resist most convetinol weapons, (especially those of the type used by land armies, as apposed to costal defence units), allows them the unique privilage of oporating close inshore, somthing other ships cannot do. This gives them a reaction time a ship cannot match, and no aircraft can loiter too close in for gfear of enemy AAA and SaM systems eithier, so again, they suffer from reaction times, as well as the fact that to be blunt, even the old slow Iwoa class ships can put down more weight of ordanace per hour than a nimitz full of Fa-18's, (the turnaround time for the aircraft is the real killer), and does so on half the tonnage.

7. You grossly over-estimate the effectivness of aircraft. With modern airborne radar any aircraft or missiel can and will be detected at more than 100 miles where modern SAM systems will destroy massive numbers of them. Indeed an american carrier group, thanks to it's very large airborn radar can and will engage enemy aircraft at upto 300 miles out.

8. Modern CIWS systems have advanced a long way since the falklands, as have many other aspects of fire control systems. So even given the limited detection range of ship based radar, it would still take dozens of aircraft or missels to overwhelm a sinmgle ship even if it does not have a long range radar system. Situation such as the falklands where single aircraft destroyed whole ships are not going to be repeated in future, systems have advanced too much since then for such attacks to be worjkable. Indeed it is arguable that they had advanced enough by the falklands itself, but due to conservative cut-backs many of the ships in the RN at the time where decades old, had it been an all new fleet i suspect argentinian losses would have been higher, though i don't dispute they would still have been very effective.

Ultimetly Modern ships can and will survive both air and sub-surface attacks very well. But except for america's battleships, none of them stand up to actualy getting hit very well, they relly on not getting hit, (to far too great a degree IMHO, getting hit is opart and parcel of fighting and you have to be prepared for it, not say it won't happen and plug your ears while singing patriotic songs when it does;)).

[Pyro Paul]

a submarine doesn't have to get close... this isn't world war 2, subs don't have to surface to shoot deck guns at targets any more, nor depend on slow moving torpedos that only go in straight lines and have motors that crap out after a couple hundred yards...

the modern day torpedo can achieve kills at 23 Miles away and have the power supply, speed, and guidence systems to ensure such kills. quite litterally a Seawolf can lay in wait at the bottem of the ocean pick 8 targets of a convoy lob a torpedo out at each one, all from 8 miles away and 300 fathoms down, and still hit every one.

and that is just torpedos. modern day US subs are capable of subsurface launching of the BGM-109 Tomahawk cruise missle capable of achiving pin point accurate kills from over 1500 Miles away.



as well as the fact that to be blunt, even the old slow Iwoa class ships can put down more weight of ordanace per hour than a nimitz full of Fa-18's, (the turnaround time for the aircraft is the real killer), and does so on half the tonnage.


and the fact of the matter is that in this age of warfare precision is key instead of saturation the battleship no longer has a place. regardless of the computers and trajectory calculation you do, the fact of the matter is that lobbing shells the distance the mark 7 can achieve leaves a very large margin of error no matter what. a slight breeze at the rounds apex can cause the shell to drift some 50 feet off target. and considering in modern warfare that is the diffrence between your intended target and a school filled with children, such methods have long since been abandoned.

through out all of world war 2, in all of the major barrages done by the US navy, only a handful of bunkers where ever knocked out.

Quite litterally, in the first few week of the Iraq war US air power destroyed more bunkers and earth work targets than the combined US Battleship fleet has done in all of its existance...

and ultimatly no... modern ships have been proven time and time again to be quite vunrable to both air and sub-surface attacks which is why Air Craft Carriers, LVPs, LAC, and SSNs are all large parts of the american navy while the Cruiser and Battleship have a much lesser role.

[Carl]

Pyro, stop talking crap. As you well know any convoy or carrier battlegrouop or surface gropup maintains it's anti-sub screen of active sonar bouys and dunking sonars, (in full wartime mode), at a distance far furthar than what a sub can fire it's torpedoes. No sub will ever get within torpedo range of it's target if it is a group of ships above a certian size. They can keep an active sonar screen going far enough away that subs aren't a threat, any sea skimming missle suffers the same interception issues of a land or surface luanched vershion.

and ultimatly no... modern ships have been proven time and time again to be quite vunrable to both air and sub-surface attacks which is why Air Craft Carriers, LVPs, LAC, and SSNs are all large parts of the american navy while the Cruiser and Battleship have a much lesser role.


Again you know nothing. No attack on a surface warship that is in full war mode has been sucsesfully made on a ship, (of a contempoary tech level for the era), that was built within the last 30 years. The falklands was the last time that happened and the ships are 40 years old by todays standards.

Are aircraft and subs a threat to surface warships. yes. Are they the kind of threat you try to claim. No. Are they, (IMHO here) as weak as some simulations suggest? No, real wars a bit moe complicated than that, perfect conditions and no mistakes are not the norm in real war the odd sub or aircraft attack will get through without doubt. But this isn't WW2 where ship based AAA is incapable of shooting down aircraft and missile reliably.


Quite litterally, in the first few week of the Iraq war US air power destroyed more bunkers and earth work targets than the combined US Battleship fleet has done in all of its existance...


And that is relevent how. I specificlly stated new ships with new weapons. Where allready devloping 155mm shells fitting GPS guidance. But new shells means new weapons, and new weapons means new ships. We can easily buikld a 16" shell packing laser guidance and GPS guidance, and a weapon capable of throwing them 50KM of more. But such a weapon would need a newer ship than the Iowa's to carry it. However such a ship could also mount the Anti-Sub and anti-Aircraft and Anti-Shipping missel armerments of several cruisers, meaning it would also give any landing force it's own built in anti-air platform as well).


The claim that guns firing blind are somehow innaccurrate is also blithly idiotic. We still willingly use 155mm artilliary which fire lighter shells furthar, a lighter shell is much easier to knock off course, and even 155mm without guidance has what is considered sufficent accuracy. a 16" shell over that range can easilly achive sufficent accurracy with blind guidance IF the weapon firing the shell has the right construction tolorances.

[Pyro Paul]

personal attacks really don't work here...
if anything you are only proving that you, your self, know very little. hell a large majority of the information you have presented is largely incorrect alone.


but for some reason you seem to think that battleships have hyper evolved into an unbeatable floating fortress that have such perfect imaging software that it can detect lobster on the sea floor. while Submarines and aircraft carriers research seemingly Stalled after world war 2...

but one fact still remains which you can't deny.

Aircraft Carriers and Submarines have assumed dominence in in all the primary world powers naval fleets where battleships of all kinds have seemingly disappered.

regardless of what ever pipe dream you may have the fact of the matter is they are no longer produced for a very good reason.

[Trizzdog]

I'm sure people would respect your arguments if it weren't for the personal attacks, Carl. And because of such, I demand that this tangent stops now. If you must argue about battleships, you may create a new thread for it, as long as the personal attacks stop.

Anymore personal attacks or posts about this tangent will result in a thread ban.

[Carl]

EDIT:

I'm sure people would respect your arguments if it weren't for the personal attacks, Carl. And because of such, I demand that this tangent stops now. If you must argue about battleships, you may create a new thread for it, as long as the personal attacks stop.



Sorry trizzdog, i was writing when you posted that. Do you want me to delete this or leave it?

EDIT2: I decided to delete it to be safe.

@Pyro if you want to continue this make a thread in general and drop a link in here for intrested parties.

[Meneldhil]

As for Rommel.. I heard that the Afrika Corps were one of the only german armies to never be accused of war crimes, thanks to the efforts of the Commander, is that right?


Rommel committed numerous warcrimes during the campaign of France, both against military units (especially colonial troops) and civilians.

A french officer who wanted to talk to Rommel after his unit was left without any ammo and was waving a white flag has also been shot at and died from his wounds a few days later. It's unknown whether or not Rommel ordered the shooting though.

There have been at least two books released lately, that more or less destroy the myth of a knightly Rommel. He wasn't nearly as bad as many German generals, but he still wasn't a nice guy by all standards. I think the German army had much better examples of honorable soldiers to offer than this one.

End of out of topic rant.