[WFB] Sylvan Elves - A Relic Forums Production

[Varellian]

Between myself and Suicide Pogo, and a larger interest in WHFB than I first realised on the forum, we've agreed to come up with a FanDex which updates the Wood Elves to a competitive level, without the need for Treesurfing Spirits.

So, if you want to get onboard, put down your notes ;) I'll get round to making a PDF similar to the WIP Ordo Malleus one I posted a few months ago as we get more information. ;)

[suicide_pogo]

maybe having bretonnians as allies?
not all bretts but maybe having 1 unit of KotR, or questing knights, cause that would work well with fluff.

another CC unit, spearmen?, just basic spearmen for cheaper but no special bonuses.

Besides heavy armour what else is Wood Elves missing?

[Varellian]

They're missing Killer Archery.

High Elves (Curse of Arrow Attraction) and Dwarves (10 million Thunderers) are both better at range than Wood Elves. Slight modifications to their benefits that they get in woods etc (such as perhaps giving them the Dwarven War Machine Hiding Rune, but only if in a wood for example).

For Bretonnian Allies, I'm not sure about kotr or units of them, but a Lone Questing Knight as a Hero, upgradeable to a Grail Knight would make sense. After all, they don't go around in large groups of knights when trying to find the Grail, it's only when there's a battle do they band together.

I'm not sure on moving the Wood Elves to 1+ Armour Saves either really works. It just doesn't fit with their ethos, although a unique character, as a Questing Knight would work.

Rather than having cheapened spears (because to be honest, we already have High Elf Spears with 3 Ranks and ASF, and Dark Elf Spears with Hatred), I think just reducing the cost and increasing the power of Eternal Guard wouldn't be amiss.

I think that we should decide on a flavour on which to take the army into - perhaps base it on the seasons?

For example, a Spring one could lend more to the dryad heavy lists, a Summer one being the Vanilla Wood Elf list, an Autumn one which sees more to the Inclusion of Archers, but has limited numbers of Forest Spirits, while the Winter List only has Treekin available, and larger numbers of Archers and Eternal Guard etc.

They need a heavier damage unit, but to still be fragile. For example, their Wild Riders - should be kept as fast cavalry, but perhaps +1 Attack, and Strength, and perhaps a Variant of Hit and Run?

[Rook]

the season idea is a great one and i think you should develop it more.

maybe winter one should have few units but have higher stats because they are of a "hardy nature" you know because you need to be pretty tough to campaign in winter months anyway.

having never played wood elves i'm not a great help but you could create something awesome here.

[suicide_pogo]

Get rid of the rule
If the army is led by a highborn the eternal guard are core, led by any1 else they become special. They should just be core, period.

winter no trees at all(they all asleep)
Spring dryads, no tree kin
Summer All forest spirits
Autumn no treemen

What if we made an elite unit only for the winter season?

lol, bring back chariots!!!! :P

[nareik123]

Personally, I think for a shooting army, Wood Elves are quite poor at it. Personally, anything with the title Glade should have Glade Guard bows standard, not just Rank and File Glade Guard.

Also, Wood Elves don't have much to worry Chaos Warriors with their insane-o-save which needs to be altered.

An obvious addition should be sprites be in addition to Magic Items, rather than added on for the magic item points limit. Every race is getting stuff like that these days, and so should Wood Elves.

Basically, Wood Elf archers need to be able to kill stuff other than light infantry.

[Varellian]

Yeah definately! That Eternal Guard rule always was messed up. As for the winter, it's said that the Treekin are Deadwood inhabited by forest spirits? Perhaps only one to deal with heavy armour?

So, this is what we currently have -

<snip> - No statlines. Ap0k

____________________________________________________________

Pretty poo, when you consider the quality of high Elven Spears (ASF 3 Ranks), and the bonuses that cheap ass Dark Elf Spears get (14 of them put out 14 Attacks with WS4 rerolling misses for 112pts), this is what I suggest them to now be -

Eternal Guard (Champion has +1 Attack) @ 13 points Core (25 points full command)
M | WS | BS | S | T | W | I | A | Ld
5 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 5 | 2 | 9

Equipment - Light Armour, Eternal Guard Voulge

Special Rules
Patrol - The Eternal Guard are the last stand for the Forest of Loren, and as such, they frequently patrol its borders, hunting out those who would seek to do it harm. However, in battle, they may exchange there Ranger like ways, and instead form a phalanx of thousands of whirling steel tipped blades, used so skillfully, and so rapidly, they are almost impossible to guard against.
Eternal Guard may choose to deploy as Skirmishers or as a standard unit. If at the start of their movement phase they are unengaged, and not under any compulsory movement obligations, the unit may choose to forgoe their movement to reform into either formation.

Eternal - Eternal Guard know that without the aid of the forest, they are the last lines of defence.
Eternal Guard are Stubborn. If joined by a Noble, Highborn or Character with the Eternal Kindred, Eternal Guard are Immune to Psychology.

Eternal Guard Voulge
Eternal Guard use these as any ordinary man might use a spear. The are so skilled, however, they can even knock an arrow out of the sky.

Eternal Guard have a 4+ Ward Save against any non-magical ranged attacks. In combat, they are used in a variety of ways - choose at the start of each close players combat phase.

1. Great Weapon
2. Spear (so great is there skill and trust, that Eternal Guard in the second rank may use their spears even if they charged. However, if they do so, then they may only use +1 Attack).
3. Shield and Hand Weapon.

_____________________________________________________________

I'd love to hear your thoughts on them.

Edit @ Nareik =) Yess!! That's what we like.

Sprites will definately be in addition to magic item allowance, scaling much like Chaos Gifts of the Gods do. What would you say about saying that any unspent Magic Item points can also be spent on Sprites - which no longer are unique, but share a similar rule of no multiple combinations (so no multiple Radiants etc)

[nareik123]

I don't think you should give them that big an advantage. You could just make Sprites additional wargear for heroes, as in list it under their section although their own pages of detailed definitions will probably work better.

[FarseerAnimal]

Personally, I've never had a problem with Wood Elves competitively. Even without the Forest Spirits. There's the ever-cheesey Machine-Gun-Alter-of-Doom. Wardancers can slice through anything if you get them right. Waywatchers are great at slipping around and annoying people. We have a whole box of tricks if you use them right.
Personally, I think for a shooting army, Wood Elves are quite poor at it.
This is how not to do it. Wood Elves are NOT a shooty army. It is not our main strength. Wood Elf players should know this, and let their opponents believe otherwise. Personally, I think the Wood Elves main strength is the movement phase. M5 for the slowest troop, half the army is a Skirmisher or Fast Cavalry, along with plenty of Fliers, we can out-manuver anyone. Let the enemy believe we're a shooty army, then spring a dozen traps on them and force them into unwinnable combats that they did not expect.

-Animal

[nareik123]

Farseer, you have to spend ridiculous points on one combat unit, and even then they aren't good due to lack of ranks/outnumber/actual armour. Most units just bounce off stuff with heavy saves. Warriors of Chaos are going to give you some serious headaches.

[Varellian]

Could you give me an example of an unwinnable combat that a competitive player with experience using Daemons, Vampires, WoC, or Dark Elves (High Elves don't matter, shooting and Spirits are the strength there) where WE can't lose, please? I'm genuinely curious, as I've got several Wild Riders, War Dancers and Eternal Kindred painted, so anything using them I'd love.

I have no problem with creating a CC army, and that they need to work together with army synergy- that's why I like them. But when they lack the power once they get there, they have to break on the charge far more convincingly than WoC, Slaanesh Daemons or even Bretonnians need to - but you notice each one of them can easily pull it off with equivalent troops - i.e Marauder Cav w/ Flails + MoN/Khorne, Seekers, KoS's, and Anything with a lance.

WE have a S of 4 max for all intents and purposes without Tree Spirits or magic. There's no point in having an all "winter" army if you cannot kill anything tougher than a goblin - they'll burn the forest to a crisp. Which is why I think that this side needs toughening up.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

Can I put my 2c in here?

The entire concept of the Woodelf army just doesn't work in Fantasy. They're supposed to be essentially a guerilla force, hugging terrain, not getting engaged unless the odds favour them, and so on. I can't see how you can make that force in a way that isn't either a) terrible, or b) undefeatable. There's no real middle ground, either you can stay out of combat with your opponents melee troops, in which case you'll win againt most armies out there and be really frustrating for them in the process, or you can't, and you'll die.

So yeah, given that I'd rather Wood Elves be underpowered than dominate everything. If you can produce something that's competitive, not too good, and doesn't compromise on the racial feel, I'll be highly impressed. But I genuinely don't think it can be done.

[FarseerAnimal]

OK, unwinnable might to too strong a term, but I still think you're going the wrong way about it. Manuverability is the key here. Wood Elves never fight toe-to-toe with anything. Charge a unit of Wardancers into a unit of Chaos Warriors and its not going to go well. But soften the Warriors with bowfire, and charge some Wild Riders into the flank at the same time and you're in with a good chance.
Sinking alot of points into one combat unit? Hardly. The same criticism could be made of trying to make yourself uber-shooty. Yes, Wood Elves lack ranks, armour and numbers, but you manuvers make up for this. WE aren't an army to stand and fight conventially. Doing so is like trying to make a shooty Chaos army, it doesn't work. Stop thinking like the enemy army and start thinking about how you can use their way of thinking against them.
Also, I'm rather confused by the idea of trying to use the Elves without any Forest Spirits. Its rather a clue in the name Wood Elves that we're meant to be fielded alongside the Wood. Dryads, Tree-kin and Treemen massively add to our strength. Using them in tandem with the other elements in the army and you have a solid chance. Yes, I understand that its very fluffy to make a winter army with no forest spirits, but fluffy doesn't mean competative and often you can't have both. Just be a damn summer army, use the entire toolbox and see if you don't fare better.
Also, n0z3k1ll3r has a good point, but I still believe Wood Elves can be made pretty competative.

-Animal

[nareik123]

But soften the Warriors with bowfire, and charge some Wild Riders into the flank at the same time and you're in with a good chance.

Softening chaos warriors if wood elf bowfire is pretty much nigh impossible, even harder if said unit is nurgle or tzeentch. You might kill one, and thats a lot of bowfire for one warrior dead.

Wood elves lack real hitting options without serious co-ordination to kill heavy infantry, and you only have 6 game turns to do such a thing, so you won't be able to reduce chaos armies to mere fragments. And death star units will pretty much be invincible against wood elves. Treekin just aren't good alone, and Treeman are hard to keep alive from the modern day special/rare counter units. Try threatening an Empire army with a treeman, guaranteed he'll have a cannonball heading his way.

[Susurrus]

The problem is, imo, that even if Wood Elves can dominate the movement phase, they have no presence in any other phase.

Their magic is pitiful, really, and a lot of it is VERY terrain dependent.

Their CC is even worse, particularly due to their lack of saves, expensive units, and lack of middle-ground troops (between GG / Eternal Guard and Treemen)

Their shooting is lacklustre against anything with armour. Waywatchers at least have killing blow, but only at half range (maybe all ranges, to make them more effective?) I'm not sure what to suggest re: fixing ranged, but I do think it needs to be fixed to be more effective vs. heavily armoured armies.

[Varellian]

OK, unwinnable might to too strong a term, but I still think you're going the wrong way about it. Manuverability is the key here. Wood Elves never fight toe-to-toe with anything. Charge a unit of Wardancers into a unit of Chaos Warriors and its not going to go well. But soften the Warriors with bowfire, and charge some Wild Riders into the flank at the same time and you're in with a good chance.
That's hardly advanced tactica, combined charge and shoot beforehand. Neither is it a one hit kills everything - after all, you have a weak charge, and anything with a 2+ Save will just brush that right off.

As for the Wood Elves without Tree Spirits - the point is that Wood is only there during the 8 months of Spring to Autumn, and in Winter, goes to sleep. The beastmen in particular take note of that, and will capitalise on it.

Okay, here are some ideas I've been working on so far for the Glade Guard -

1 - Upgrade BS to 5.
2 - Bows becomes S4 full stop
3 - Bows become Armour Piercing (at either short or full range)
4 - Never suffer negative penalties for shooting.
5 - Has the Patrol rule like the Eternal Guard above do.
6 - Give them the Lethal Shot
7 - If they skirmish, allow friendly Wood Elves to draw a Line of Sight through, and allow other friendly skirmishers to charge through them.
8 - Move and fire on the march.
9 - No longer affected by enemy march blocking when skirmishing.
10 - Allow them to use their bows in Close Combat (Maximum of 1 S4 attack)
11 - Ward Saves in woods to represent their ability to dodge incoming attacks (even in Close Combat).

Waywatchers - Remove the Lethal Shot rule (give it to Glade Guard, but instead they ignore armour saves, or Multiple Shots).

[FarseerAnimal]

OK, so you clearly want to make the Wood Elves broken. Good luck finding anyone to play with you with those house rules.
Yes, fluffwise the wood goes to sleep during the most of winter, but there are many instances where the Forest Spirits do fight during winter, and for that matter many instances in the fluff where a hundred cannons fight a Chaos army. Fluff=/=gaming, the Forest Spirits are part of the army and give the WE a great deal of their strength. Choose not to take it for fluff reasons and don't expect to be competative.

-Animal

[Brother Wolf]

It's been too long, so I don't recall the specifics, but I seem to remember looking at the shooting specifics in the current army book and recognizing a significant shift away from their 5th ed abilities. Of course, what isn't fair is that WE had to go almost the entirety of 6th without a book only to get one at the tail end which doesn't favor them for 7th, (and with 8th on deck for 2010, who knows what will happen to them).

I'll try to get a minute to review the old & new books again and see if I can drum up some thoughts.

[nareik123]

Varellion, those rules you posted, while a start, would pretty much encourage Wood elves to do nothing but spam archers. BS5 core units at S4 AP would make Empire Handgunners look about as menacing as Gnoblars throwing sharp stuff, and no to Lethal shot on every Glade Guard. I don't want my big unit of 240pt Knights being gunned down by 20 archers.

Try toning it down a bit.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

I'm pretty sure he meant "here's some suggestions, pick one" not "they should get ALL this crap".

[Brother Alexos]

Wood Elves could use a Flamethrower...

But seriously, I think that having a tree that spits out poisonous spines, like on a cacti, would help.

[Brother Wolf]

Everything wood elf MUST start with 2 things, the WE Longbow and WE Pathfinder(Forest) skills.

Old school WE archery used to be 36" range, (longest range of anything not a war machine at that time), and Armor Piercing, (and later -1 to save roll or S4, basically the same). This was in addition to move & shoot without penalty. WE should be a preminent shooting force without the use of war machines or black powder. Considerations could be made for an extra rank shooting, (similar to spears in assault).

After that, anything forest should be clear terrain for them, for purposes of moving and for shooting. I would add further consideration in WE favor in terms of receiving a charge, being shot at, etc.

My few cents anyway. Overall, I'm not too unhappy w/ WE despite the age of the book and who has come along since 7th launched. Then again, I don't play WFB much anymore.

[Varellian]

OK, so you clearly want to make the Wood Elves broken. Good luck finding anyone to play with you with those house rules.
Yes, fluffwise the wood goes to sleep during the most of winter, but there are many instances where the Forest Spirits do fight during winter, and for that matter many instances in the fluff where a hundred cannons fight a Chaos army. Fluff=/=gaming, the Forest Spirits are part of the army and give the WE a great deal of their strength. Choose not to take it for fluff reasons and don't expect to be competative.

-Animal
Nice to know you took the time to bother actually thinking about what was written. Nowhere did I say that they have all of this - I said these are some ideas I've been working on.

This generally means that those are some thoughts I've had which could bring them into line - pick a combination, or any single one, and see what you think.

As for your point on the Archers - you don't want your 240pts of Knights Gunned down by - wait for it - 240points of archers?

You think that I want to see my 240 points of Knights slain by charging a 105pt unit of 7 Swordmasters? There's a difference between 240 points of Archers, and 4x as many models, and just a few more and 40% of the cost.

[Dooks Dizzo]

I want to see Tree Riders! Just goofing a bit here guys but how awesome would Elves mounted on T5 tree's with S4 bolt throwers be? T5, 4+ armor, 5+ ward.

And the models would be just sick.

Aside from that I would have to spend a long dang time coming up with how to bring WE on level with the top tier armies.

[Susurrus]

GG longbows with 36" range, and always strength 4 would be a good start.. Especially if you consider GG points cost.

Currently, you're paying xx pts for an armourless bowman, and though admittedly range is good, it doesn't even outrange bretonnian peasant bowmen. Added to that that bowmen are half the price, and even the +1 BS and leadership upgrade don't seem to justify the extra cost.

Especially when you consider that Black Guard Executioners (admittedly, CC, but bear with me) are 1 pts / model less.
Think about that - basically identical stat-lines, except tat Executioners have great weapons, and therefore +2 strength instead of simply +1 at half range. And they have heavy armour. And special rules (admittedly VERY situational high elves).

And compare wood elves to dark elf warriors with crossbows. The dark elves are cheaper, and though their range is slightly lower, and they lose accuracy if firing two shots, the very fact that they can double the output of a wood elf gunline means that they're going to end up superior. And they're cheaper, and have armour.

WHY such high pts / model?!?!?!