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Maximus Kane
13th Jun 04, 3:58 PM
What is you DoW favorite and you 40K TT version favorite?

Mine has to be the SM Dreadnought simply because it waddles around laying down the smack on everything. Also the pic of it picking up the ork and ripping it a new one has to be the best thing i have seen in an RTS.

(Apart from the Force Commander running rings around and over the Bloodthirster... or maybe the Bloodthirster shaking the marines off it's axe.)

Uzgah
13th Jun 04, 4:00 PM
I like the Elar grav-tanks. They all seem very... sleak... majestic... smooth... I likes.
Thought I can't the rest of the Eldar range. Hence, why I never enjoyed collecting an Eldar army. I might give them another go though. The Scorpion super heavies are loverly and are swaying me back to the skinnies.

TheWatcher
13th Jun 04, 4:03 PM
From what I've seen in the trailers, a couple of vehicles look groovy. The Defiler animation looks just amazing, and the Falcons look beautiful. Also, the Predator just looks scary coming over those hills...I guess until I get the full game it'll be hard to say which is my favourite. The Dreadnoughts, also, look good...but do they count as vehicles? :P

TT-wise, it probably comes down to the Monolith. Just 'cos its bigger 'n scarier than anything else out there - and has a nice set of rules to go with it, too :)

WarpSpider
13th Jun 04, 4:03 PM
In DoW it's probably the Fire Prism Grav Tank.

TT it's the Landspeeder... Don't ask me why... Probably because flanking a formation of infantry and then killing the whole squad with a multi-melta rules :)

I see this thread getting locked because there are many others like it... Plus these moderators are extremely harsh... Whatever gets them through the day.

Shakrith
13th Jun 04, 4:06 PM
Mine is the Defiler. Just love it. Haven't got one yet, but I love it. Looks sooo good in Dawn of War...

Aun'shi
13th Jun 04, 4:08 PM
For Dow my favourite's gotta be the Defiler, I love the way the movement is animated.
As for TT, it's probably the Devilfish solely on the basis that my lil 'fishie has got me out of some seriously painful situations.

peer
13th Jun 04, 4:12 PM
In DoW, Wraithlord or Defiler. The Defiler's animation is just incredibly good. In TT it's a tossup between the Scorpion superheavy and the Land Raider Crusader.

Ammon Ra
13th Jun 04, 4:44 PM
That elf mech, giant head, stick limbs... catches my attention basicly because of it's design. yeah, i'm a wh noob, but i like what i see, and i seen that thing, and i like. ;)

the marines (??) seem to be too much of steam punk, and while that's interesting in itself, it doesn't get me excited. Elegance, design, smoothness, and a tad of realism get my vote.

btw what's it name? :D

Richtofen
13th Jun 04, 4:46 PM
I dont really have one but I really like the Land Speeder Typhoon, the Predator, the Falcon and the Hammerhead with its huge railgun

BlackTemplar
13th Jun 04, 4:46 PM
@Ra: Wraithlord!


My vote is the Fire Prism

ionfish
13th Jun 04, 5:06 PM
As far as the tabletop goes, I think it has to be the Wave Serpent. The fact that you basically have to make your own is only a bonus in my book, since I am (was, anyway) a pretty keen converter. That, and it's one of the best vehicles in the game, able to drop a bunch of Aspect Warriors right where my opponent doesn't want them. The fact that it has twin-linked weapons is nice too, since sadly Guardians can't hit the side of a barn door.

In Dawn of War, from what I've seen so far, I think it has to be the Defiler. It's like a giant cockroach with guns and ADHD.

BlackTemplar
13th Jun 04, 5:07 PM
Hahahaha.


No wonder Defilers are so destructive, they have ADHD.
*Smash smash smash*

mpjesse363
13th Jun 04, 5:14 PM
in dow the land raider


but in tt you cant beat the land raider crusaider its the meatiest hunk of beef out there and has the ability to transport a squad of termies mmmmmmmm beef

Ordinary_Story
13th Jun 04, 5:19 PM
In TT definitely Furioso dreadnought, I mean come on who doesn't like the sight of a SM dread tearing enemy vehicle and infantry with dual powerfists. :bandit:

In DoW I'd have to say Landraider. I can't help it I'm a slave to the classics. :lol:

DarthFelth
13th Jun 04, 5:39 PM
in the table top the Flesh tearers Death company Dreadnought, you just gotta love it, in DoW, hmm, id have to say the Land Raider, always a bonus to have something to move my Termies in :D

DR_RANSOM
13th Jun 04, 5:42 PM
On the table top, a Warhound Titan. ( I don't own one, but they look really cool) In DOW I like the Predators, especially with the Heavy Bolter turrets.

eadipus
13th Jun 04, 6:26 PM
i like the ork killa kans in DoW

in TTG i wuv my hammerhead with its big gun and deadly pie plate of doom

the eldar vampyre from epic is my favourite vehicle though, it just looks so so good and its dirtily powerful

donut-IG
13th Jun 04, 6:28 PM
on TT i say IG sentinels i know its armour is 10 all round but its just so cool.
on DoW id say the Eldar Avatar with his flameing face

No Surrender
13th Jun 04, 6:36 PM
Dr Ransom: You do mean Autocannon turrets right? since Preds can't get Hvy Bolter turrets.

My fav in DoW would be the Falcon.
On TT: I'm divided between a Baneblade and a Shadowsword.

DarthFelth
13th Jun 04, 7:08 PM
they cant, funny, mine has heavy bolters...

Juppitziah
13th Jun 04, 7:18 PM
I think Dr ransom meant side sponson mounted heavy bolters...

General Nuke Em
13th Jun 04, 7:19 PM
TT, Imperial Shadowsword. DoW, probably Land Raider. As you can see, I like big tanks.

Russian Ninja
13th Jun 04, 7:44 PM
That elf mech, giant head, stick limbs... catches my attention basicly because of it's design. yeah, i'm a wh noob, but i like what i see, and i seen that thing, and i like. ;)

the marines (??) seem to be too much of steam punk, and while that's interesting in itself, it doesn't get me excited. Elegance, design, smoothness, and a tad of realism get my vote.

btw what's it name? :D

The 'Elf Mech' is the Wraithlord. It's basically a construct that houses the soul of a dead Eldar hero (hence the Wraith part). And how exactly are the marines Steam Punk anyway?

Anyway my favourate in game has to be the Fire Prism. On the TT, it's too unreliable as it misses half the time, but here it looks great and actually hits stuff.

Anyway on the TT it's got to be the Wave Serpent. It's the second most sturdy transport in the game (after the Land Raider, and in some ways it's even more sturdy thanks to its speed) with excelent speed and firepower, whilst its energy shield and the 'Skimmers moving fast take only glancing hits' help it survive to deliver its cargo to somewhere that your opponent doesn't want you to be. Under the new rules the application of the WS has changed as you can't assault out of it though.

Noir
13th Jun 04, 8:08 PM
The Marines aren't too steampunk except for the Dreadnoughts,but the entire 40k universe is :p

Maximus Kane
13th Jun 04, 8:14 PM
I see this thread getting locked because there are many others like it... Plus these moderators are extremely harsh... Whatever gets them through the day.

I thought it was a bit close to the bone getting locked wise, but we have had just about every "whats or favorite XXXX" but not vehicles. Well none that i could find.


The Dreadnoughts, also, look good...but do they count as vehicles? :P

I supose the dreadnought is not really a vehicle as you cannot get in and out of one at will. Hmmmm i'll guess it will have to be the Whirlwind because they remind me of the russian katyusha rocket launching trucks, which in every game i have played with them in have been the most ridiculously destructive and spectacular weapons in the game. Lets hope the Whirlwind done not disappoint! :wowsers:

DarthFelth
13th Jun 04, 8:27 PM
well id say a dreadnought is a vehicle, i mean it had a pilot/driver, crewmen, its just they cant get out, it dosnt matter that it walks rather than flies either (just incase someone mentions that ;) )

Estocade
13th Jun 04, 8:31 PM
In Dow : Defiler
In TT : The stormblade. No tanks can surpass this baby http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Imperial%20Guard/stormblade3l.jpg

NjalStormcall
13th Jun 04, 8:42 PM
Steampunk isn't the right word, I think. Some sort of "fantasy in the future."

Tegadil
13th Jun 04, 8:52 PM
DoW, I'd have to go with a Wraithlord.

On the tabletop, either a Phantom, or barring that, definitely the Ravager. That baby is death on air.

Maximus Kane
13th Jun 04, 8:55 PM
Steam Punk is definitely not the right word. :Slap:

Sedghammer
13th Jun 04, 9:09 PM
I like the warbuggy....there is a shot of an ork practically flying off of the buggy as he is going over a hill. That should be fun in-game.

Screenshot is here--->
http://eurogamer.net/view_screenshot.php?image=/assets/articles/a55758/relic00057.jpg

Lumburg
13th Jun 04, 9:33 PM
the Imperial and Chaos HellHound Titan for the TT. Just looks cool.

For the game... Dreadnaught also.

Derringer
13th Jun 04, 10:57 PM
I'd have to say the Defiler for both, I just love'em!

corkill
13th Jun 04, 11:01 PM
Anything ordnance from the TT E.G Whirlwinds, basilisks and griffons. Also the Baneblade of the IG.

Dreadnoughts seem to look the coolest in DOW.

the pious fool
13th Jun 04, 11:14 PM
it's all about the Land Raider Typhus. I mean, a Land Raider with a Typhoon Missle Launcher... Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
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Hereticus
13th Jun 04, 11:43 PM
In TT I would have to say the blood Angels Furiso Dreadnought. It was just the veihicle version of my army, slaughtering in clsoe range.

In DoW, I would have to say Landraider. Just for nostalgic purposes.

ilia1986
13th Jun 04, 11:57 PM
Hoverdynes pwn. All of them. In particular the prism tank. :)

HannibalBarca
14th Jun 04, 12:07 AM
In the TT i would have to say the Rhino the bread and butter of Space Marine maneuverability on the battlefield and in DoW i would have to say from what we know of them my favorite would have to be the Land Raider (added bonus if it is a crusader :bandit:) what is there not to like about these beast of machines.

|AXiN|
14th Jun 04, 12:20 AM
In TT - in terms of funkiness, the Land Speeder Tempest, it just looks so cool. In terms of gameplay. the Monolith, that thing is obscene.

Deathwing
14th Jun 04, 12:35 AM
In TT it's the Land Raider Crusader. Transporting more Termies to the enemy. Hmmmm Carnage !!!

And in DoW it' the Land Speeder.Must be cool, hunting foot soldiers down from above.

EDIT: I forgot my all time favourite in TT: The THUNDERHAWK GUNSHIP !!
One day hoping to call one my own.....

WarmasterHorus
14th Jun 04, 1:17 AM
Defiler, for all the resons mentioned, the model, the animation etc.

TheWatcher
14th Jun 04, 2:50 AM
Flesh tearers Death company Dreadnought

I discovered the other day its actually cheaper points-wise to take the normal Furiso Dread and slap on extra armour. Virtually the same effect, slightly cheaper, and you can stick with a normal BA army for all that extra armoured-goodness :)

Niklas
14th Jun 04, 3:35 AM
DoW, I'd have to go with a Wraithlord.

On the tabletop, either a Phantom, or barring that, definitely the Ravager. That baby is death on air.

I am forced to agree with both of these. Although the Prism Tank might tie with the Wraithlord.

[p.s: Heyo Teg m'boy.]

SpartanArchon
14th Jun 04, 3:43 AM
tough one for me, actually, but I'd say, only by a small margin, I reckon it is (in DoW, not TT) the defiler maybe - it's very kool, but only beats dreadnought, wraithlord, killa kans, warbuggies, wartrukks, whirlwinds, falcons, fire prisms, predators (Chaos and SMurfs), land raiders... OH WHAT THE HELL - THEY ARE ALL SO KOOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Vijil
14th Jun 04, 4:50 AM
land speeder tempest, followed by marine jetbikes. There is no model, but they do exist.

Russian Ninja
14th Jun 04, 5:00 AM
Hoverdynes pwn. All of them. In particular the prism tank. :)

Hoverdynes? It seems you've changed your mind about Ground Control after all. Either that or the word Hoverdyne has the catch to it. Well still, Eldar Skimmers were the reason I started Eldar in the first place.

I might as well add that I've always liked the new Predators, which look much better than their older counterparts. They look like true proper tanks in my opinion.

Vijil, I take it that the Jetbikes that you're refering to are the ones that are in the Horus Heresy book. Never read it but I suppose the concept drawing must look good.

Farseer
14th Jun 04, 5:31 AM
Zi almighty Falcon Grav Tank. A beautiful vehicle that is fast and has a nice cannon which packs a punch. Not as lethal as its cousin tank but i think it looks better to have a cannon than a crystal.

azmodean
14th Jun 04, 7:11 AM
DoW: ork Killa Kan
TT: Orky Dreadnaught

My favorite model is my custom Ork Dreadnaught that I cobbled together from scraps of about 6 other (non-gw) model kits. It just screams "Orky".

Espi0n
14th Jun 04, 7:15 AM
TT - Falcon. Transport 6 Banshees as well as having awesome weapons. Sort of opposites but i like it.

DoW - gotta love a supressing Predator :D

Kaelorr
14th Jun 04, 7:17 AM
The coolest tank I've ever seen is the new Scorpion Type II (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/scorp2.htm) from Forge World.

NightBringer
14th Jun 04, 8:59 AM
on the TT it would have to be the chaos warlord titan that was featured in the display piece "seige of the emporers palace" at gamesday uk.... yeha i know u cant use it on the table but it looks FCUKing amazing. or the gargantuan squiggoth from forge world!

DoW: definitly either the BT, defiler, wraithlord

Exterminatus
14th Jun 04, 9:11 AM
:comment: Your all wrong THE best vehicle in 40k is.....................the rhino :gonemad:

Ok maybe not the "best" but maybe the most flexible vehicle in the game with more options than anything else! :drive:

Personally i don't take them :bag: as i have a grey knight force and tend to use land raider crusaders which are so much fun and more fluffy than normal land raiders as they tend to just sit back and snipe which is a waste.

NjalStormcall
14th Jun 04, 9:38 AM
Rhinos are probably the most versatile and useful vehicle in the game, indeed. I'm a strong believer in specialization, and if I want a good attack vehicle, I'll pick a Predator. If wanted a transport, I'll take a Rhino. Jack-of-all trades will just get you a master at none.

Then again, I like speed and mobility. I am a Wulfbrother, after all. A kill just isn't the same if you can't see the eyes of your prey as he squeaks out the last breath, his battered heart in your armored fist.

Ionthas Paladi
14th Jun 04, 11:24 AM
Although I agree that Rhinos are the most versatile I prefer have a squad of 6 marines in a razor back (advance plus suppression fire though not as quickly) then have the marines dismount and hit hard with one flamers and the rest assault (sergeant with power sword and three others bolt pistol and ccw) of course new rules sort of kill that entire realm of nastiness.

PS- Sorry about the two flamers I was thinking of my veterans in my Imp Guard army Flammers + Chimeras= a bad day for anything else that lives. Considering guard can suddenly hit something.

BlackTemplar
14th Jun 04, 11:26 AM
two flamers? how'd you manage that?


EDIT: Ah hah! See? This is what you get for lieing! You got caught! Muahaha

DarthFelth
14th Jun 04, 12:17 PM
i dont know how to tell you this mate, its not the same effect, extra attack and ignores crew shaken and crew stunned result. Extra armour says "count crew stunned" as "crew shaken"

The death company dreadnought IGNORES both of these results. Also flesh tearers can only use one normal dreadnought due to the black rage ;)

as for the warlord i think forgeworld did make one and that they did make rules for it, i think

ShadeDancer
14th Jun 04, 12:55 PM
Forgeworld made a Warhound Titan, not a Warlord. Warhounds are far, far smaller. A Warhound in TT scale would go up to just above my knee. A Warlord in TT scale would be up to my shoulder, and that would just be way to big.

NightBringer
14th Jun 04, 1:07 PM
shade.... they did make a warlord titan, and a chaos warlord titan, as i stated, but they aren't that big, it came up2 my waist (i'm 5ft 10")

Maximus Kane
14th Jun 04, 1:44 PM
short arse :stick:

aeturnum
14th Jun 04, 2:40 PM
In TT I really like the Land Raider Crusader, the image of one of those things crashing therough the lines and then letting loose the squad inside it is fantastic.

In DoW, probably the Dread, it looks really cool and can just wade through seas of troops.

TheWatcher
14th Jun 04, 2:44 PM
Well, I did say virtually the same effect :P

Missed the extra attack, though...

Rubert
14th Jun 04, 3:17 PM
Being a SM player I'm going to have to say the vindicator. Often underrated because of its short range, its just a matter of good tactic to make it devastating for infantry based armies and even better armed units!

Dimension
14th Jun 04, 4:43 PM
TT: Tau hammerhead, but Eldar Scorpion Type II even more so.

DoW: Predator. I just like it more than the Land Raider, and it packs almost as much punch. its won me over! Also, I'll probably have much fun mowing down light troops with some land speeders :D

Tu'Shan
14th Jun 04, 4:47 PM
land raider... ZZZZAAAP! BANG! all dead...

DarthFelth
14th Jun 04, 5:40 PM
hmm, yeah i know they made one mister, and i know the difference between a warhound and warlord thankyou very much, i been playing since i bought space marine (the old epic game) from Toys r Us well bit before, is till have my plastic marines from the orignal 40k box and the ones my uncle gave me from when he used to play rouge trader, never could get him interested in 2nd ed :(

Deathwing
14th Jun 04, 6:06 PM
What? Nobody thinks that the Thunderhawk Gunship rules?
Okay then, why not? Personally I think it rocks !! (Though it is quite expensive )

DarthFelth
14th Jun 04, 6:21 PM
well i dont know its rules so i cant comment, titans rules actually suck ;) so id assume teh same for the thunder hawk

Cherubael
14th Jun 04, 6:58 PM
I might have said the Defiler was coolest, but one of my friends plays Chaos Marines (Iron Warriors) and always beats me so now I hate most Chaos on principle alone. In light of that, I have to say the Furioso Dreadnought.

super-six-one
14th Jun 04, 10:25 PM
The Necron Pylon!!!!

Capt. Invictus
15th Jun 04, 3:49 AM
land raider helios!! giant missile launcher and lascannons!

but in dow, the wraithlord's fighting animations just looks sooooooo cool.....

NightBringer
15th Jun 04, 3:59 AM
ooo ooo necron pylon yay...

armoured column of landraiders lone on desert of tomb world
pylong appears
entire amoured column go bye bye
pylon disappear without trace

nuff said

ilia1986
15th Jun 04, 4:03 AM
Hoverdynes? It seems you've changed your mind about Ground Control after all. Either that or the word Hoverdyne has the catch to it.

Not really. I didnt like GC2, but I do like GC1.

And hoverdynes pwn because they can cross water, they are (usually fast), and have a good firepower. And in DoW they have a super heavy armour :)

Capt. Invictus
15th Jun 04, 4:09 AM
"And hoverdynes pwn because they can cross water, they are (usually fast), and have a good firepower. And in DoW they have a super heavy armour "

hoverdynes? in DoW?

HannibalBarca
15th Jun 04, 4:10 AM
He meant Eldar vehicles but calls them hoverdynes for some reason.

ionfish
15th Jun 04, 4:10 AM
He means grav tanks.

ilia: they don't have "super heavy armour". Eldar tanks are relatively lightly armoured, relying on their speed and firepower to see them through.

Capt. Invictus
15th Jun 04, 4:16 AM
i see....
and i agree with Ionfish-they're skimmers. how'd you expect super-heavily-armoured tanks to float, even with the eldar's technology?

ionfish
15th Jun 04, 4:17 AM
Well, they seem to manage ok with Scorpions and Cobras...

:bunny:

TheWatcher
15th Jun 04, 4:17 AM
Tau do it...kinda...

Erik Frostmane
15th Jun 04, 6:59 AM
Leman Russ Tank and Dreadnought.

ilia1986
15th Jun 04, 7:02 AM
He means grav tanks.

ilia: they don't have "super heavy armour". Eldar tanks are relatively lightly armoured, relying on their speed and firepower to see them through.


Fish, did you count how many hits did that prism tank in the E3 vid take before falling? I didnht, but it was as sure as hell many. It just kept getting hit again and again, until the Predators were destroyed, then it survived a defiler, and only after a couple of Leman Russ shots did it fall. If that isnt heavy armour, i dont know what is.

Inquisitor Mau
15th Jun 04, 7:04 AM
Imperator Titan :devil:

ionfish
15th Jun 04, 7:50 AM
As has been said numerous times before, the vids were scripted and unit stats were changed for demo purposes. I don't think you can judge the in-game toughness of a unit from the videos.

Moreover, Relic claim to be providing a game that is true to the spirit of the Warhammer 40,000 universe. In that universe, Eldar tanks, while not weak per se, don't have the foot-thick slabs of ceramite armour that characterise Imperial tanks; their survivability is due more to their mobility and firepower than their heavy armour.

ilia1986
15th Jun 04, 8:07 AM
Hm.. Maybe. But Hoverdynes still pwn. :)

ZombyDog
15th Jun 04, 8:42 AM
short arse :stick:
speaking of which I'd love to see a lovingly recreated Squat Land Train for TT by Forgeworld.
But my favourite TT vehicle has to be the Land Raider, I just had a lot of fun building & painting mine and despite it being a huge points sink in smaller battles I still feel obligated in taking it. In DoW I have to say that the Defiler comes first with the Wraithlord coming in a close second.

SWPIGWANG
15th Jun 04, 1:39 PM
Eldar have wraithbones supermaterial as armor, so can't really blame them for looking weaker than they are.

Fira Lastwind
15th Jun 04, 2:21 PM
In DoW I'm looking foward to the Land Raider. On the TT it comes down to the Raider (Of Dark Eldar fame), can you say drive-by pirate shooting? If/when it does get blown up it was only what....fifty five points (Too lazy to grab my codex) plus with slave chains I think it becomes hillarious. Oh yeah, and with screaming jets.... I think (Too lazy to get the codex update) they can deep-strike. Gotta love the Dark Kin and their wacky wacky Raiders.

Felstorm
16th Jun 04, 10:10 AM
I prefere either the landraider (cause its so big) or the Space Wolves Venerable Dreadnaught whitch looks really cool with its alternate CCW

QuixotesGhost
16th Jun 04, 2:40 PM
Definatley the Pentinent Engine.

How can you crucify a heretic on the front of a steampunk walker and have it not be the coolest thing you've ever seen.

Tyranidian
16th Jun 04, 3:50 PM
in Dow, I'm going with Fire Prism, and in TT, as far as luck goes, my Talos is unbeatable. It's worth 100 points on paper, but in my heart, it's worth 10,000. *has a sentimental moment* as far as everything else goes, Screw vehicles! Carnifex all the way babee!

King-Oister
17th Jun 04, 4:43 AM
My favourite vehicle would be...hmm...The super-duper grot-mobile!! :D
but seriously, id say the looted rhino, its just so fun!


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Volsung
17th Jun 04, 4:57 AM
How sick is the (selfnamed) 'Orkmobile' from the screenshots!

http://wh40k.mednickonline.com/images/ss/relic00006.jpg

Azhrarn
17th Jun 04, 5:01 AM
That looks a bit like a Guntruk to me.
Small Vehicles, Big Guns, yep it's a Guntruk.
Very Nice. No armour, but plenty of Shooty.

one_klump
19th Jun 04, 11:08 AM
on the TT, Tau Hammerhead totally owns the tank world in Warhammer 40K.

Massive gun, a pair of Gun drones, seeker missiles, smart missiles, a disruption pod, and targeting array, oohhh yeah, super bad skimmer tank that can shoot at different targets.

TheWatcher
19th Jun 04, 3:42 PM
Apparently those are gonna be the Ork buggies and wartrakks.

And Guntrukks have got bigger guns :)

archon god
21st Jun 04, 12:25 PM
man you ppl need to learn one thing and that is that all of those vehicles have no chance against a dark eldar talos they are the suppream vehicle in the warhammer 40k

Master Chief
23rd Jun 04, 6:27 AM
Eldar Fire Prism tank. It's SWEET. It's also pretty good, and cool looking.

man u ppl need to use the TalosIsn't that the thing with the claws and the 2+ Invulnerable save? I fought against that once. Killed it with my Wraithlord. ;)

BossThraka
25th Jun 04, 10:10 AM
In my opinion, nothin' beats a wartruk. Load it with a Warboss and 8 Nobz fully decked in mega armour and power claws and a mekboy with a custom force field. Any penetrating hits will glance, grot riggers can take care of immobilization, and since it's a fast vehicle you can move, disembark and assault all in one shot. Not even the Land Raider can carry so much potential destruction.