Who were the two missing Primarchs of the first founding ?

[Deathwing]

Nearly every Space Marine/ Chaos Space Marine player asked himself this question.

So do I.

Earlier, I thought that one of the primarchs was the primarch of the Grey Knights chapter. In my opinion that would explain, why this chapter was erased of imperial records ( Secret, because they work together with the Inquisition :censored: ).

Later, reading the demonhunter Codex, I found, that they were definately not in the first founding ( Quote: founded as chapter 666 )

Then I thought about the Adeptus Custodes. ( Yes, the personal bodyguard of the Emperor ). But this was also wrong, because the Adeptus Custodes is older than the Space Marines of the first founding ( and even stronger ).

Or were those two also seduced by Chaos? Probably not, because all the other traitor legions are mentioned.

But there was one event, when the Emperor said to Magnus the red ( Thousand Sons primarch ), that his chapter will be deleted of imperial records when he doesn't stop using magic.

Maybe both of those primarchs comitted a so heretical deed, that they and their legions were deleted.

So the origin of those two and their chapters is still in the dark.
Would be nice to know what all of you think. Or if someone of you has an information that brings light in this yet unanswered question.

[NightBringer]

one of the primarches is the emporer karl frans in warhammer fantasy, but i dont know who the other is

[Majestyk]

i think you mean Sigmar, Nightbringer. Karl Franz is a normal human. Sigmar was man of unimaginable strength,vigor, power and charisma who lived 200 years and founded the Empire in Warhammer Fantasy. He then became the subject of the official religion of the area and is regarded as a god of honor and war.

the other missing primarch might be Giles le Breton, a being of power similar to Sigmar who carved out his niche in Bretonnia around the same time.

personally, i think the other primarch was Be'Lakor. the forst mortal to be tempted by Chaos in the warhammer fantasy world, the first Daemon Prince.

of course, this is all speculation, as far as i know, nothing has been confirmed or denyed about these guys. they're probably holding it in reserve for when they want new, refreshing plot.

[Deathwing]

I do get you two right when you say that at least one of the missing primarchs is a character in Warhammer Fantasy?

Can anybody explain this to me?

I thought these were two different universes with only the chaos as enemy in common..

But if Majestyk is right, the other primarch is probably Be'Lakor.
That would keep the balance between the "good" primarchs and the ones teinted by Chaos.

[Volsung]

Yes, the two worlds are totally different, and have nothing to do with each other.

There are two primarchs/ space marine chapters left blank probably so that GW can make them up later if they want to.

I would say one would be good, and one would be chaos, to keep it even

[Majestyk]

the warhammer fantasy world exists within the eye of terror. if you read the Liber Chaoticas the guy who wrote them (a sigmarite scholar) refers to "strange warriors" and there are pictures of chaos space marines. just look in the back of the Tzeentch and nurgle ones. the slaanesh one too, i believe.

[NightBringer]

yup, the planet that the warhammer fantasy world is set on is within the eye of terror... and (speculation) could be one of the reasons why the C'tan want to close it and seal off the warp eternaly... the reason being the lizard men, followers of the slann(one of the young races spawned by the old ones during the war in heaven)

back on topic.. i dont think both of the two lost primarches would be sent to the same planet.... and form your description of sigmar, it sounds like hes dead?

[Deathwing]

So there is nothing proven anywhere who these two primarchs were...

Perhaps GW really holds them back until something new has got to be released.

So the Warhammer Fantasy world exists in the Eye of Terror... Didn't know that.
Is this information to be found only in the Liber Chaoticas?
I have to admit, that I don't own any of the Liber Chaoticas. And about the Warhammer Fantasy universe I nearly don't know anything.

Perhaps the new Storm of Terror campaign in Warhammer Fantasy will bring the two universes nearer to each other.

And thank you for the replies, though no answer to the topic is found. But you guys sure deployed some new information to me. Thanks everybody !!

And please feel free to continue posting in this thread. Speculations and proven information are both welcome.

[Ghost Maker]

i think you mean Sigmar, Nightbringer. Karl Franz is a normal human. Sigmar was man of unimaginable strength,vigor, power and charisma who lived 200 years and founded the Empire in Warhammer Fantasy. He then became the subject of the official religion of the area and is regarded as a god of honor and war.

the other missing primarch might be Giles le Breton, a being of power similar to Sigmar who carved out his niche in Bretonnia around the same time.

personally, i think the other primarch was Be'Lakor. the forst mortal to be tempted by Chaos in the warhammer fantasy world, the first Daemon Prince.

of course, this is all speculation, as far as i know, nothing has been confirmed or denyed about these guys. they're probably holding it in reserve for when they want new, refreshing plot.

HEY how many times do people have to be told that 40k and warhammer fantasy have no connection whats so ever. sigmar was just a human with godly powers while giles de breton was just a knight who founded bretonnia. it has no connection to 40k in anyway. yeah there are slight similaritys like the old ones and the chaos gods but that about it :bandit:

[rknZ]

HEY how many times do people have to be told that 40k and warhammer fantasy have no connection whats so ever. sigmar was just a human with godly powers while giles de breton was just a knight who founded bretonnia. it has no connection to 40k in anyway. yeah there are slight similaritys like the old ones and the chaos gods but that about it :bandit:

Try reading the entire thread :p

[TheWatcher]

I heard the Fantasy planet was just somewhere in the universe surrounded by constant warp storms, not actually within the EoT.

And yes, it has been confirmed the two are in the same universe. You said it yourself, for starters there are both Old Ones and Chaos gods involved. Dig out the old Fluff Bible and read. Its in there somewhere...

I've often theorised that Sigmar was a Primarch. Think about it; he follows the same pattern as Primarch's. Birth heralded by twin-tailed comet (all Primarchs fall to planets in comets), has supernatural strength, is tallest of all men and ages rapidly in early years (all Primarch ledgends speak of their feats of strength, are tallest of all men and age rapidly) and unites mankind under his banner (all Primarchs evantually lead man on their planet). The only exception is the ending, whereby Sigmar simply vanishes and there is no mention of the Emperor's arrival.

Besides Sigmar, I've got no idea who any of the two missing Primarchs are. It could be GW specifically left them open so players could simply invent their own...

Edit: Remembered something else I heard once. Apparently, the original Legions resemble the armies of ancient Rome. Two of those Roman armies were expunged from records because of military disasters (I beleive)...

[Noir]

I want to see GW rewrite the fluff again and say that the missing primarchs were women :p :smash:

[Ghost Maker]

Yeah but i must still argue against this. for one the twin tailed comet would only happen when he landed but it has been seen several times for example before the great war with chaos when mordeim was destroyed by it. and when valten was born. now if he was a primarch then why would there be another 3 or 4 comets after he arrived.

you may be right but they are 2 different universes. plus would somone have found them by know from 40k
plus wouldnt the humans on the old world have some sort of idea about the original colonists that started there race?

thats my 2 cents, you can disagree if you want
but in my opinion they are 2 different universes. :D

[NjalStormcall]

Its comes from none other than Gav Thorpe himself that the two universes are the same; he was the one who wrote the convulted "WFB Planet in Eye of Terror" explanation. Take that how you will.

[Triceron]

you... You're joking.... right? Why the hell would Gav do something like that?

[Paranoia833]

As has been said there is not, nor was there ever, any official answer as to who the two erased primarchs were. They're something like the pre-necron C'tan in that reguard, always mentioned but never explained until GW needed to invent some new source material.

As to whether the 40K and fantasy settings exist in the same universe, from what I remember there is something of a contradiction among official sources over this, depending upon who you ask and at what time. Personally I stopped caring ages ago.

[TheWatcher]

you may be right but they are 2 different universes. plus would somone have found them by know from 40k
plus wouldnt the humans on the old world have some sort of idea about the original colonists that started there race?

Besides the comet thing (which is a very valid point I have no answer to), you obviously didn't read what I, and others, have said. Its been said the WHFB world is in the EoT. I said it was surrounded by warp storms. What does this mean? One way or another, nobody's going to get close to the world. I'd like to see you search for the proverbial needle in a haystack with daemons ripping at your soul or breakthrough warp storms.

And your second point is redundant. Even if they were human colonists it could be explained by regression. But we know it was the Old Ones who created man in the Old World. And the High Elves at least know this (not sure if they told men or not...).

Finally, something I just remembered: Take a look at the gifts recieved after the Albion campaign. They are clearly 40k wargear.

Of course, the defining argument is Gav said it so there :p

[Cailet]

If they did hit WFB planet then one would be sigmar. The other is more likely to be Be'la'kor than Giles because of balance. Think how powerful Be'la'kor was, that is Daemon-Primarch level.

[NightBringer]

I heard the Fantasy planet was just somewhere in the universe surrounded by constant warp storms, not actually within the EoT.

yeah your right... thats where it is, i jsut agreed about the EoT coz i had forgotten that

[TheWatcher]

Either way, my point still stands :)

And I doubt the other is Be'la'kor. (sp?). The odds of two Primarch's falling to the same place whereas the others were dispersed across the galaxy are too high.

[NjalStormcall]

And I doubt the other is Be'la'kor. (sp?). The odds of two Primarch's falling to the same place whereas the others were dispersed across the galaxy are too high.

My thoughts exactly. I think it is just Sigmar.

[TwinBladez]

well when you think of it it is quite possible thet 2 primarchs landed on one planet especially with gigantic storms pushing small craft around like toys. Sigmar probably was a primarch and Valten a copy of his gene seed. Now abot belakor it is quite possible that he could be a primarch.

[NightBringer]

[peer]

You said it man.

[MacBeth]

no clue who the primarchs were but I think I know what happened to the two legions.
first was the fire hawks,they got caught in the warp and over a period of time started to go in sane and die off.after their deaths,they started to appear as warriors in black armor with skeletons painted on with flames.they couldnt be killed and never gave up,and when you thought you killed one he came back.they only appear when the imperium is in dire need.

the second I know less about.from what I heard is there was this one legion that was destroyed during the heresy,why'll horus was makin his way towards terra this legion stood up to horus near terra.horus destroyed the legion and gave some of them the legions time to get to terra.

[Hellscream]

the fire hawks are not one of the original legions, they are a chapter formed in a later founding. the second.... no idea (maybe you talking about the Imperial Fists?)

[MacBeth]

hmm... I thought they were a first founding... meh you cant be right all the time.
and the fists are still around?

[Hellscream]

i believe they are, i think they are based on terra, not sure. The other original legions are still around in chapter form, so i assume that the fists are still around as well. They were definately in a novel, dont wanna say which cause it was good, imho.

[Master Chief]

2 Primarchs went with the Emperor during the Horus Heresy to stop Horus. I think one died, his name was Sarguinius, I think. Forget what chapter he was with, might be Blood Angels. The other Primarch lived.

[Hellscream]

Nope Sanguinius was the Primarch of the Blood Angels and Rogal Dorn was the Primarch of the Imperial Fists. Next :)

[Master Chief]

Which one died? I forget. I knew Sanguinius was with the Blood Angels, though.

[NightBringer]

sanguinius died, the emporer found horus standing over his broken body... ogal dorn lived and found the emporer after he fought horus, and took him back to the palace

[InquisitorZIM]

I've been playing 40k for seventeen years now, and not once has it been mentioned in ANY official sources that the WFB world exists in the 40k universe, nor does it ever mention the missing primarchs and excommunitcated chapters. They were never mentioned in the first game about the Heresy (Space Marine 1rst edition, second game in the epic line after Adeptus Titanticus).

Although both settings have some common themes, the two are no where near in the same set timline/universe/galaxy whatever.

And as for Gav saying that the two exist in the same "setting" as its the only term I can can use this loosely, is a bunch of bull. And if he does think that, then I want him to stay as far away from 40k as possible, bad enough he's got hsi nose in it right now. His Fantasy stuff is great, his 40k stuff blows chunks, sorry Gav.

[Niklas]

It has been stated numerous times in various White Dwarfs that the similarities of the two universes is purely coincidental.

They liked the gods they had created and created two universes for them. No connection in 'actuality' whatsoever.

[Master Chief]

It says all this stuff in the Eye of Terror Codex. Yes, there is one. It has all kinds of stuff on the Horus Heresy, Cadia, and Abaddon's 13th Black Crusade. Check it out. ;) It's pretty cool.

[ObsceneName]

Back in teh day Fantasy used to be in the 40k universal infact a chaos character could jump into the warp and grab a 40k weapon plasma gun and such but GW has split the two the universe's.
But the old fluff was probably something along the lines that sigmar was a primach the other? Belakor a primarch i doubt it but he was oringaly as powerfull as one of the chaos gods(He even out tricked tzeentch, yeah thats insane)
And weather sigmar is dead or not who knows but twin tailed comets are omens for the humans of the warhammer world as everytime one has appeared something has happened
Magius the pious appeared mordiheim was hit a by a comet sigmar appeared and sigmar disapeered

[Evilfurby]

yup obscenes right the fantasy universe started as a sort of gorkamorka style game where the various races were plunged back in time (technology wise) there were originally weapons from 40k in the game it has since split and its thought that the planet exists somewhere in the galaxy (i'd guess malestorm for simple reasons of balance needs to be a decent amount of power without total chaos control i.e not the EOT would also explain how the Malestrom was created)

also the 2 lost legions some guy working for GW owns the rights to them and he left the company taking the rights with him

[mpjesse363]

who was this guy and why would gw allow him control of fluff produced explicitally for them

i have heard this before but never have had a definitive answer