Marines Love/Hate

[MetalMilitia]

It seems to come up quite a bit, and often off topic, so I figured why not make a thread. I dont know if its been done or not but if it has it needs to be brought back. Just voice your lover, hate, or inbetween feelings on the emporers finest.


I personally, as I've said before, am a marine enthusiast. For several main reasons. First off in the cosmetics department they are fun to paint, and have some cool color schemes, plus they look cool. In TT while being well rounded, there are armies where you will need quite a large proportion of tactics when using marines. Lastly in the fluff they just fit into the dark gritty universe of warhammer 40k, oh and they are giant superhumans with guns that fire rocket propelled mini rockets. Doesnt get much cooler n' that.

[NightBringer]

i hate them.... simply for the reason that 9/10 people play them on TT which would make every battle i've played in GW store a mini horus heresy in terms of fluff (nearly every player on the "good" side fiels a marine army.

then theres the fact of their armour save and toughness.... basically meaning unless ur going to be in combat AND have a higher inicitive AND have power weapons, your gonna need an army of heavy weapons, all with S8 and/or AP3 to beat em... or make sure u play a pointed battle and use and army that cost mcuh less to get more units, and use numbers against them.

but its mainly becasue nearly everyone loves them grrr

[Cailet]

I dont mind the army, it is quite well balanced (currently) and a nice starter force.
My problem is that they are bigged up by GW to the exclusion of all else. They have more variant lists than anyone else, more models than anyone else, more column inches than anyone else.

I don't like the prejudices that always come up in these posts either.

[gnomes]

i'll stop hateing mareiens when the blood pact get moddels
more guard more cultists dam it and death to giilasmurf

[Pyro404]

one word....landraider crusader.....oh wait that was two
and you just gotta love the boltguns :sniper:

but as Cailet said
"My problem is that they are bigged up by GW to the exclusion of all else. They have more variant lists than anyone else, more models than anyone else, more column inches than anyone else."

id like to see GW put more work into expanding other races

[Russian Ninja]

I don't mind Marine armies...as long as they aren't the little kid "But my armour protects against your Battle Cannon, 'cose they're Space Marines" armies. The main thing is that the Tin Cans are by far the easiest army to use and therefore almost all newbies start off with one. And because all pros were once newbies themselves, many people own a marine army, even if they haven't touched it for 3 years. The fact that in many cases it's rare to see in a Battle Bunker any armies that don't have a standard armour save less than 3+ (by less than I mean worse(5+), not better of course (2+) means that you get sick of fighting marines pretty quickly.

Fluff wise what I don't like is the fact that there really isn't that much support for the true "Traitor" army that is what truly makes up the bulk of the Imperium's opponents (Lost and the Damned is not nearly as popular as Chaos Smurfs, and most of their models require conversion, making it somthing unaccessablef for your average gamer), and the very unequal proportion of Marine Players to Guard Players.

[Hive]

I dont mind Marine armies, infact i think they're cool, especially the Wolfy ones. Regardless of this, i created Tyranid/Eldar armies, mainly because they're so different but also because they just seem to appeal to me more.

[FeloniousPunk]

I've always liked the SMs, but mainly for their fluff. They're medieval militant monastic orders gone sci fi (think Templars, Hospitallers or Teutonic Order) with all the somber and grim attitude and spirituality. That's pretty cool, and very refreshing in the face of normal sci fi. I like Imperium of Man fluff in general, for that matter. I know they are powerful and they get disproportionate love from GM, but let's face it, SMs are 40k, always have been. They embody the spirit of the game so it's likely that they will always have a slight edge over everyone else.

The bulk of the problems people have with SMs seem to be more with the people who play them than the army itself. It's quite true that noobs are highly represented among SM players, for good reasons (relatively inexpensive army to collect, easy to paint, easy to play). But the only answer to this is - find better players to play with! My 40k group has more Ork players than SM players, the other armies are well represented with the exception of 'nids and Dark Eldar. Tau is getting really popular. The average age of the group is mid 30s, though, that makes generally for a much better gaming experience. Mature opponents are a god send.

The only army I like more than the SMs is the Imperial Guard, unfortunately it takes a lot of time to build an IG army, especially if you put a lot of painting time into each figure (currently building a Cadian regiment, but also looking at building a few platoons of Armageddon Steel Legions - I seriously dig the whole World War I look of those guys). The Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer is a great inspiration...

[archon god]

me personaly i dont like the space maines just because there supreamness and that they are a no tactic army you can just march them fowward and get to and opponent
anyone can play maines and have wonderful succsess just because there so easy to use. i mean i have been beaten by a kid that has never played before he used maines and i was my D.E. army at 500pts just because all he had to do was march them towards me and get into cc with my warriors. if your a beginner i guess there ok but if you are a vet and useing them its just not cool.

[KingKupo]

i have nothing against space marines, they are my primary army for the moment afterall. but i can see why people dislike them, wich is why i want GW to stop promoting them as a newbie army. It's kinda funny tough, humanity's FINEST(altough GKs or Ac are infact humanity's finest) are the newbie army.

[FeloniousPunk]

me personaly i dont like the space maines just because there supreamness and that they are a no tactic army you can just march them fowward and get to and opponent
anyone can play maines and have wonderful succsess just because there so easy to use. i mean i have been beaten by a kid that has never played before he used maines and i was my D.E. army at 500pts just because all he had to do was march them towards me and get into cc with my warriors. if your a beginner i guess there ok but if you are a vet and useing them its just not cool.

I have been spanked by several different armies while I was playing my SM's. Have you considered the problem might not have been with the rules and the SM army list, but the way you played your DE army? Something to think about.

[archon god]

Have you considered the problem might not have been with the rules and the SM army list, but the way you played your DE army? Something to think about.[/QUOTE]

well it was an all infanty game on a 2x2 board with no terrain and was one of my earlyer games so there realy was nothing i could do

[BlackTemplar]

The comment about SM requiring no tactics is extremely ignorant.


You try just "marching them forward and get to the opponent" against orks/'nids.

You try getting your 20-30 soldiers close enough to IG/Eldar/Necrons/Tau so their weapons dont blast large holes in your battle line.

The other armies are all designed to kill Space Marines in different ways. The SM have to adapt their tactics each battle to deal with a different threat.

[NightBringer]

i just hate their armour save and all the fluff that makes them so bloody god-like

[Ionthas Paladi]

Have you ever considerred that the SM are supposed to be god like...
SM are quite a fun army to play however trying to play a straight codex army is next to impossible in any real tournie as most experienced will knock you on your ass right quick. I am personally waiting for a new incarnation of the codex before I start up my army (the only games I have playd would be using my friends army)

[Havock]

perhaps they could solve the problem by making more versions of the starter set?
basically, some worth of stuff, but with different sides?

that way, not every starter gets (or at least could choose not to have) the SM as it's starter force :p

[ObsceneName]

Its to late to fix the damage done..
GW messed up somewhere along the way and SMurfs became a cashcrop sure it brings in money and supplys the game with fresh people but it also makes teh game relative boring as lets
see theyre are 6 marine and csm with another 2 necrons of a 11 person group thats alot of fun. And the number one reason i here is "I play Space Marines because their the most forgiving army in the game".

[BlackTemplar]

@Nightbringer


Uh, hello. SM are god-like. The fluff is doing a good job.

[MetalMilitia]

Have you considered the problem might not have been with the rules and the SM army list, but the way you played your DE army? Something to think about.

well it was an all infanty game on a 2x2 board with no terrain and was one of my earlyer games so there realy was nothing i could do[/QUOTE]

Archon God, in your other post you showed what things you were using for Dark Eldar, with a little bit of tweaking ANY Dark Eldar army can beat the average space marine player fairly easily. I have been owned my by many Dark Eldar armies. Marines require much more tactics than people give them credit.

Necrons are what gets me. No one is like oh necrons are too good here. I mean 3 up then if they do die a 4 up on the next turn to bring them back. Of course people say phasing out oh nooo. Ive only seen necrons phase out... wait have I seen necrons phase out? I definatly think that marines are not the easiest army to use at all.

[Fat Bhoy Tim]

They're medieval militant monastic orders gone sci fi (think Templars, Hospitallers or Teutonic Order) with all the somber and grim attitude and spirituality. That's pretty cool, and very refreshing in the face of normal sci fi.

Not being a fan of most sci-fi that's what I found appealing and different, hence my attachment to the Dark Angels.

[NightBringer]

@Nightbringer


Uh, hello. SM are god-like. The fluff is doing a good job.


meh, i've said my piece :P yeah they should be elite, but not god-like, if they were really god-like then the orks, tau, eldar, nids etc (except chaos marines) wouldn't be much of a threat would they :P, yeah i know theres like 1 marine to like a million worlds, but thats more than enough

[SWPIGWANG]

Smurfs are boring. The only SM fluff that is remotely interesting to me is the Dark Angels and the thousand sons. (which is CSM anyway)

I don't like super troops with no weaknesses in general. There is only bravery, brilliance and heroics from weakness, otherwise it is mere tradition.

[bleedingbass]

I think most people ether love SMs because they play them and win alot, or they hate them because they play against them and lose alot. but i can truthfully say that my cadians have taken down space marines many times. thats right you heard me correctly, the cannon fodder anhilated SMs. all you have to do is find strategies to get around their armor (battle cannons really help :D ).

[MetalMilitia]

meh, i've said my piece :P yeah they should be elite, but not god-like, if they were really god-like then the orks, tau, eldar, nids etc (except chaos marines) wouldn't be much of a threat would they :P, yeah i know theres like 1 marine to like a million worlds, but thats more than enough

Then maybe they arent so God-like after all. Theyre superhumans, they are strong good at shooting and have armor. They are not God-Like, they do not create worlds and part the red sea! I mean what would be cool about a marine that has the same stats as a guardsman just with a 3 up save. Then in the fluff he doesnt want to punch a 'nid in the face cuz he might break a nail or something. I mean I think they portray them quite well.

[Lord Maugan Ra]

I dont like them because you hear so much about them and like 90% of the players i know play them so i used to like them but now since i hear so much i've learned to hate them

[Cailet]

Metalmilitia

There is this niggling little thing called game balance. Talk to 2nd ed vets about 2nd ed Eldar and you'll see exactly why Marines are toned down.

[MetalMilitia]

No no no no thats not what Im getting at, Nightbringer said that the doesnt like them because they are "too damn God-like" and I was saying they ARE superhumans I mean if they were weak it woudlnt make sense, yet they are not really God-like, just very strong.

[NightBringer]

i cant even remember what i said and cant be bothered to read it again.

my other reason is the same as lord maugan ra's, its that EVERYONE plays them, you go into GW fo the very first time and ask to play a tutorial, and when they ask what side you want to play and u say "i dont know" they do this:

"well you can be a space marine, a superhuman fighter whos got great armour and is good all round fighter and has some of the best weapons in the game and are easy to use"

"or the dark eldar who are fast and agile, but shit for beginners and takes ages to learn how to win with them"

now which would you use? 9.99/10 people chose sm and its stupid, if they had introduced the tau form the word "go" and put them in the boxed game, then it would make they boxed game itself more balanced, giving boh players a chance to win, and seeing as the tau have good advantages, as the sm do, it stops soo many people form choosing the sm over the DA coz they are better

[Drunk-Spleen]

i hate space marines because the fluff and the actuallity dont fit, they are the emeprors finest elite army? true, there arent many of them? false every third army is a space marines one, which leads me to believe 33% of every living being in the universe is composed of space marines. aside from this it is mainly my bad experience with the players(not to say all SM players suck, just the ones i know) all whinging and being stupid

for example im tau, and one was saying its stupid that i wound him on a 3+ with my basic models, he didnt care that only 50% of my shots will hit and that he will save 66% of those wounds anyway, he just thought it was dumb that i was wounding on a 3+, so you should have seen his face when i had a rapid fire weapon that wounded on a 2+ and allowed no saves.

[Asklepios]

The fluff does not have to correlate with the frequency people actually play Adeptus armies.
Their fluff is the best, they are The Champions of Humanity.

Sic semper hereticorum !

[KingKupo]

Is it me or do some people have a difficult time maintaining a gap between reality and fantasy? Just because they are the most scarce warriors in the the fluff, doesn't There should be a limit of how much people play them in real-life.

Sure, there are some Dumb marine players, but aren't there dumb players in every army?

If you can't beat marines, don't whine about their +3 save but find tactics that kill them. Don't go complaining about toning them down to Storm troopers on 'roids with a better gun. They're meant to be near-invincible.

[Fat Bhoy Tim]

i hate space marines because the fluff and the actuallity dont fit, they are the emeprors finest elite army? true, there arent many of them? false every third army is a space marines one, which leads me to believe 33% of every living being in the universe is composed of space marines. aside from this it is mainly my bad experience with the players(not to say all SM players suck, just the ones i know) all whinging and being stupid

for example im tau, and one was saying its stupid that i wound him on a 3+ with my basic models, he didnt care that only 50% of my shots will hit and that he will save 66% of those wounds anyway, he just thought it was dumb that i was wounding on a 3+, so you should have seen his face when i had a rapid fire weapon that wounded on a 2+ and allowed no saves.

As a SM player (and no other) I do admit i find the attitudes of some of us somewhat stupid. I've no problems accepting the rules of the game or the weapons etc.

Mainly because i let my tactics (hopefully) do the talking for me.