Life or Death? Which would you want your children to see?

[TheLoneKnight]

I've been muddling over the idea for this topic for awhile now.

It's actually inspired by an old quote I heard from a man who's name I cannot recall;

"I would rather have my son watch a film of two people making love than two people trying to kill one another."


So I'll cut to the point: Would you rather have your children exposed to the ending of life, or the beginning? No I'm not talking about pornography in comparison to action movies, or ridiculous things like that.

I'm talking about real life, real death, and which you would want your children to see. I'm also wondering how many of you believe that violence has been perhaps too easily accepted by the general populace while sex has become just as taboo as ever, (well, maybe not quite as taboo, but still more than enough. :D).

What do you all think?


Edit:
To be a little less generalized and obscure:

It's already pretty common knowledge that violence, real and fake, is usually on 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Sex, on the other hand, is usually limited to 10-11+ PM. Of course, sex for the sake of having sex shouldn't exactly be on TV in the middle of the day, but what about what is often considered (or at least, was,) the ultimate expression of love between two human beings. Even nudity, (I personally see nothing wrong with the human form, clothed or not), is usually limited to late-night programs.

Another note would be the penal system currently in place. For murdering another human being, at least last I checked, the average time in Jail (which I've never seen as much of a punishment) is about 25 years. Is that really how much we value human life?

There are alot of philosophical questions I'd love to rant on about along these lines, but I suppose I'll leave it at this and hope someone got the general idea.

..if not, I guess I can always try again at a later date.. ._.

[Starfisher]

So I have a choice between showing my kids explicit sex or explicit death.

[Mad Ewok]

Wait a minute. Is this a fight to the death - as in someone being killed? Or is it just death? Not that I have any kids anyway...

[TheLoneKnight]

This would be a man killing another man, yes.

And my question doesn't necessarily apply to those who only have children.
The use of children in the comment is more to give perspective to possible readers. After all, you may not have qualms about watching murder or love making, but if you had a child, a person you shape with your own views and impact upon so greatly, would you want them seeing people fighting and killing eachother, or would you rather have them watch two people creating life?

Even if they aren't creating life, though, it is still an expression of love.

Murder, on the other end of the scale, is usually caused by hatred.

So..yeah. Which would you rather have your children seeing? Hatred or Love? Murder or Sex? Which do you believe is the most acceptable in our current stage of life and which do you believe SHOULD be the most accepted?

[Starfisher]

Sex isn't inherently an expression of love. Nor is killing inherently an expression of hatred. Plenty of people have sex for the fun of it, and people kill in self defense. For a child to see the difference he/she would need the context to make the distinction between the different situations, and I think what parents try to do when sheltering their children is give them the time to build up the experience necessary to see the difference. Since killing and sex have very serious potential consequences, it makes a sort of sense to wait on kids experiencing both until they have developed some social skills within a relatively safe realm.

[TheLoneKnight]

Y'know, Starfisher, I absolutely hate you for intelligently destroying whatever retort I could think of. :damnu:

Though I suppose the question I've been struggling to ask is more directly related to the quote in my original post. The choice being between Murder or "Making Love". I suppose the entire basis of the quote itself was likely the large amount of violence/murder on Television/film.

But either way, it never has to be explicit, but I begin to wonder if children shouldn't be learning these things in a more proper context before they see violence/debauchery breaking out in the real world (or at school, for that matter).

I could also be insane, though, seeing as the first philosophical thread I attempted to create died before it was even born. It's not fair... :cry:

[Starfisher]

Heh. Sorry.

For what it's worth I more or less agree with the quote. I don't understand why Americans go to such lengths to make sex a shameful and dirty thing all while glorifying the destruction of life everywhere. It seems a bit schizophrenic.

I think the problem is that we attach black and white value to everything we see. Like I said, sex is not automatically an expression of love, and death is not automatically a bad thing. People use such absolute views of black and white things in order to escape having to think, I suppose, but the result is always bad for the individual. So now, despite the existence of reliable and safe contraceptives, we are living in a society that is half trying to regress to being Puritan, half trying to enjoy itself.

By the same token we kill each other much less than ever before yet surround ourselves with reminders of our bloody past in an odd supplication for violent times long gone. We evolved to fight and flee, and the fact that most of us will do neither throughout our entire lives has to mess with something on a fundamental level. With no real battles to fight we revert to inventing them, and I honestly can't tell which is worse.

Which would I want my kid to see? Two people pleasuring themselves or two people fighting to the death? Which truth would I want him or her to be exposed to first? I don't understand child psychology enough to decide, so I'll take the easy way out and prevent him or her from seeing both until they've hopefully had enough time to develop an intellect capable of dealing with both.

[TheLoneKnight]

..You know, in some demented, possibly perverted, way.. I think you actually just said what I was trying to say.

..well.. not quite. What I was trying to say had more to do with how society puts such a "who cares" attitude toward violence in any form but goes absolutely insane the second it might involve anything sexual. But it's close enough, I'll run with it!

*steals!*
*runs into a dark corner*
*stares at you while giggling*
:hide:

[Jao Ensatsu Ken]

Well, I don't really think it matters that much if we're talking about a young child. But if I had to choose, I'd choose the sex. I mean, they probably can't interpret it very well. Yeah, if you kill someone with a knife some kid might think that it's okay. Or they might be scared shitless if they are can actually figure out what's going on. But if you show some kid sex, they probably have no idea what is happening. That is, as long as you don't directly tell them what the two people are doing.

Ugh, I feel as if my argument is flawed in some way.

[TheLoneKnight]

I agree entirely. Starfisher seems to be the only one who has alot of experience talking about this kind of thing. As such, he has paddled my butt into tomorrow with plain, simple-to-understand logical thinking.

So dead be I. o.o..

BUT I STILL HAVE HIS IDEA!~
*goes back into a dark corner*
:hide:

[Starfisher]

Or the kid might think they were hurting each other... moans of pain and pleasure are remarkably similiar without the experience and context to tell the difference.

[The5thElephant]

If Foucault were alive he would be totally all over your asses right now. And I mean because of this topic, not because he was gay and Starfisher is dead sexy. :p

[Moe]

Foucault? The guy with the pendulum?

[Homdax]

As a father of three I feel this needs a bit of exposure.
I understand TLK's question and it makes perfect sense.

I was watching Jet Li last knight, Hero.
Its not a violent movie, although it involves Martial Art. Its more like an artistic approach. And my kids (ages 8-12-14) fully realized that much of that stuff was trick photography. Not much blood, if any, and no explicit death, but very much "hinted".

Canal + always have some kind of porn starting at midnight. Its difficult to find what You might define as loving, erotic sex. Beginning of life.
I would not have my kids watch that.

In conclusion, I rather have my kids watching exaggerated violence, and understand its a trick, than porn, trying to make them understand its the beginning of life.

...discuss...

[Retroboy]

'fisher wins teh thread.

My own answer would have been somewhat similar. Both reflect elements of real life, and kids need education if they're going to be exposed to either. That being said, my kids will be most probably directly exposed to mild violence before they'll be directly exposed to elements of procreation - at least, one would hope - and they'll need some education on what it is and how to deal with it earlier.

As for procreation, they're simply not biologically or mentally equipped, and for now, babies come from "mummy's tummy" and the man is "putting a baby in" if they sneak down after bedtime to spy on us watching TV and catch a racy movie scene. You can only be a victim of procreative acts until you hit puberty, so we're taking the tack of telling them how to behave around strangers and tell us immediately if people try to touch them in certain ways, and pray that this will do the trick until they're at least in grade 5 (not sure - got to do some research to find if this is the right grade to start sex ed), when we can be more comprehensive in a study of what it is, why people do it, and what it can do for or to them.

Besides, when you look at most pr0n, the participants look like they're in pain anyway. Not something your average 5 year old would want to try. :p

-- Retro

[Nurizeko]

until their 18 my kids wont get to see or experience either, and they cant do anything because im tha daddeh! :smash:

[Starfisher]

...

So you're going to keep them locked in a cabinet until they're 18? Won't let them watch the news? Go outside?

I mean I know you're a troll.. but damn.

[Retroboy]

(just in case he's not joking...)

He wants his kids to turn out like him, maybe? :wtf2:

-- Retro

[Ammon Ra]

I still squirm at excessivly realistic extreems of both instances. i can watch alien a couple times before turning of the tv, locking doors and hiding in my bed, but it's obvious that it's not real, and when it passes a certain boundary, i just can't look.

Considering i've fainted once while the theoretical car license teacher was talking about 1st aid...well, realistic violence is not interesting.

Same for the other extreme. No i dont feint [Ha...ha...] it's uncomfortable, and i avoid both. Good question, though, but considering i have [imo] another 5-6 years to find the right lady, add a few years after that, and i have quite a bit of time to think about this.

Ultimatly, too much of either isn't good for kiddies, although i dont like too much of either either...:s

[Zepherian]

You can expose kids to whatever you want to, as they dont come to conclusions by themselves, they ask questions. So, if they get the wrong message and become homicidal maniacs or sex crazed ninfomaniacs, except in cases of physical damage and/or hormonal or chemical inbalances, the fault is usually found in the social context that child grew up in.

Thats what I think about the kids. As for the sex and violence:

Well, I think sex IS dangerous, so it should be shown with moderation. Im not a advocate of no sex doctrins or a religious "sex is evil" nutcase, but for all the emotional dependancy it can cause, for all the diseases you can catch and for all the unwanted pregnancies it can result in, sex is something to be done with responsability. I think the media portrial of sex in the "civilised" world is more or less correct for this reason. Its the internet that goes a bit overboard, but thats the nature of that particular beast.

For violence this is turned on its head. Especially in American media, but to some extent in other culture's too, violence is an everyday occorence and so often glorified. Series and Films give off the generally false measure that violence can solve a lot of problems, which they cant. Violence usually brings more problem. Violence should be portrayed with every bit of moderation sex is, or in context with stronger moral measures. Action movies send off false messages. We do not see loose cannon cops being glorified in real life. In real life a lot of the good guys, whatever the fuck those are, die. Violence in American media, and elsewhere, is a fantasy, a travesty of reality, and some of the consequences in real life are tragedies. Thats not to say that violence should be outlawed, imo theres just has to be greater care with context. Too much fucking trash on tv and in the theatres. The internet is far better in regards to violence, much less of it, less readily available. Which also shows another human truth, between sex and violence a healthy human being will chose sex. This also explains why there is so much real world violence. "Make love, not war" sound familiar?

My 0.5 requisition points ;)

[Kheturus]

I say let kids be kids. There is no reason why they MUST be exposed to this until a later age. Which one should come first? I have no idea, but both are an important part of life, and both are terribly misrepresented in the media. As a result, I would never purposely let the media be the first one to expose my child to either of these issues.

[Mars_3K]

both

[Bonnet]

The trouble with your argument is to assume this will have a large effect on the kids. Thats simply not true in my opnion. I grew up in aa enviroment where I did manage to catch many of these things and the truth is none of them affected me to heavily. A kids state of my could be effected by seeing such events but in all reality no matter how much of either you expose them to there lives are most likely going to be a function of the people who raise them.

[The5thElephant]

Honestly I don't think we can completely generalize with things like this. It depends from kid to kid on a case by case basis. Some kids will react well and maturely, others won't. That is why it should be the parents who control it, not the TV stations and religious groups.

[Guilliman]

MY opinion?
Id rather have them watch death. People of these days are too soft. Violance will not hurt someones mind unless he/she is not stabile from his/her own.

*edit**

Honestly I don't think we can completely generalize with things like this. It depends from kid to kid on a case by case basis. Some kids will react well and maturely, others won't. That is why it should be the parents who control it, not the TV stations and religious groups.

Thats a very good point though.