Armenian genocide anniversary

[ionfish]

Having spoken favourably of the international and reconciliatory nature of the ceremony in remembrance of the 90th anniversary of the Gallipoli landings (here (http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=61197)), I thought I'd take a moment to mention that it's also ninety years since the Armenian genocide (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4478919.stm). The Turkish government still deny it ever occurred.

I would hope that those of you who haven't heard of the executions and forced deportations that may have killed as many as 1.5 million Armenians would take this opportunity to find out about this overlooked act of barbarism.

Most of us come from nations that have perpetrated terrible and violent acts of war, invasion and colonialism in the past. It is up to us to come to terms with the past, to admit to ourselves and to the world the uglier parts of our history. It is my sincere hope that the European Union, if it ever offers membership to Turkey, makes a public apology and demonstrable contrition a primary condition of their acceptance.

[SpinDizzy]

Yeah, that's the issue I also have with Turkey joining the EU, they were for a long time, stuck within the medieval ages, with all the horrors that comes with it, while most of the rest of the world was moving forth into the 20th century.

One of the first early demonstrations of why newspapers and the media are a good thing to have around, despite whatever babble they may spew from time to time.

I find it absurd and to some degree offensive of the way Turkey denies everything, and I'm sure myself aswell and others would like to hear an apology before Europe goes into developing any possble further relations.

[M0thra]

My other half is from an Armenian family, so this is something that I feel quite strongly about.

Good to see it being bought to attention, and I'm in full agreement that Turkey should apologise, and provide at least some closure to the families who lost so many.

[SquidDNA]

And here I thought Benedict XVI was just being a religious bigot when he said that Turkey didn't belong in a Christian Europe.

Thanks for bringing this to our attention, Ionfish. This had skipped my awareness.

[ceejayoz]

ANZAC Day has tasty biscuits. What does the Armenian genocide have?

[General Nuke Em]

Lots of people who died at the hands of the Turkish barbarians?

[SquidDNA]

Family trees, Italian bookstores and kosher restraunts, and holocaust resources.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

I visited the Armenian Genocide memorial in Yerevan once. It's weird; the museum is built underground and the memorial half so. The history it portrayed of the genocide itself was pretty sickening- as I recall, the Turks first drafted all the Armenian men they could find into the military, worked them to death, and then killed any other Armenians they could find.

[[Vertigo]]

So what do we do to celebrate this anniversary, smoke a turky?

[No Surrender]

It's sick what people can do to each other under the guises of religion and race. If we could only overcome those divides... Oh well... Let's not forget. Too bad rule 1 of international politics is to never apologize for anything, look a Japan for example.

[The Collector]

I don't want to remember what they did to China. Makes me feel sour inside. Unit 731 et al.

Edit: It also takes away from this thread, which is about the Armenians.

Carry on.

[[Vertigo]]

An apology is an admision of guilt. Nobody wants to take responsibility for something like this, even those that did it.

[Handarazuur]

ANZAC Day isn't just about tasty biscuits! We also get hat pins!

I'll toast the Armenians as well. A million deaths, contrary to what Stalin said, is not a statistic.

[ionfish]

No Surrender: your point is well made, and relevant. Might I suggest this "From Our Own Correspondent" (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/4473415.stm) article by Rupert Wingfield-Hayes on the subject of China, Japan, and their awkward habits of forgetting?

[Reverie]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/4471495.stm

Japan actually apologized a few days ago... only an oral apology from the prime minster, but it held weight. Though I think it's only the Chinese anti-Japanese thing taking effect, but am still looking for any progress...

PS sorry for the OT, I'm Taiwanese so...

[Worf]

I don't think an apology is equal to taking responsibility.
The government and the people carrying out the orders during that time are responsible for what happened.

Something of that scale is not easily remembered. But remembering is crucial so that it never happens again.
Since I'm german I partly know how the turks feel today. Nobody wants to be blamed for what their ancestors did or supported. I am not to blame for what the nazis did but it is my responsabilty to remember and ensure it never happens again.
An apology would be a step into the right direction though.

[SquidDNA]

It's easy to say that from that mature perspective of a country that often literally had its nose rubbed in the sins the controlling political party had committed-- this is to say that Germany accepted the problem. Even if individuals could say "I didn't do this," they had to say "It happened while I was looking." As you say, it's a kind of wisdom to ensure that it never happens again.

In contrast, Turkey, and to some extent Japan, are still running around, looking puppy-cute and saying "that's not my poop in the living room!" If even a small percentage of Germans were able to say that it was all a lie and a conspiracy, imagine what's going on in Turkey.

[Worf]

It partly has to do with the fact that we got our patriotism forced out of our heads.
I was raised being constantly told that being proud of my country is bad. On the other hand this serves as a reason for a lot of neonazis to support their propaganda. And some groups in our society still try to blame everyone for what happened back then and use it to preserve certain privileges. That does not help the cause because many of us young people don't want to be blamed for things they never did, including me.

As you say, the Turks never even admitted that the genocide happened. While blaming them is not the right way, they really should admit the facts.
They never learned that it is a strength to admit your weaknesses and learn from them. Perhaps some time they will realise that and finally apologise for what their leaders did. There is no way to force that, I'm afraid. And it is kind of a political minefield to make progress in that area since many Turks think that way and support would fall away from their leaders if they would apologize. No political party takes actions which might cost them votes, sad as it is.

For us, it certainly improved our relationship to Israel and the Jews in general. For that I'm glad our leaders knew how to apologize. It took us long enough though.

[The Collector]

Reverie: Japan has never atoned for the faults of 731 and other stuff. Hell, Koizumi still vists the Yasakuni shrine! Though he has to appease one group or the other, and visits the shrine to appease his own base.

At best he "expressed regret", same crap as far back as '95. And the guy who gave that "expression of remorse" still visited Yasakuni! These. Guys. Playing. Us. For. Chumps. There's no absorption of responsibility and no true sentiment of fault on their part. Oh, "stuff happened, let's move on" is the gist of it.

They should be dug up from Yasakuni and dumped into the sea. It's like seeing neo-Nazi parties around Himmler's grave and the people there claiming they're not advocates of the Nazi party.

[ionfish]

Collector: you do have a point, but that's not the whole of the story. Read the article I linked to.Young Chinese are taught about the atrocities committed by the Japanese during World War II. They are not however taught about the 17 official apologies that Japan has made to China over the last 30 years, including one from the Japanese emperor when he visited Beijing.

Nor are they told of the $30bn in aid that Japan has given to China since ties were re-established in 1972, aid that has helped build Beijing's international airport and the city's new subway system. You'll search in vain for a plaque on either acknowledging where the money came from.That said, while I'm happy to discuss genocide and apologies in general, let's keep it a general discussion rather than getting bogged down in a China/Japan thread (which, if I recall correctly, we had quite recently).

[The Collector]

ion: I've figured that Japan would try to "express remorse" many times over the past several decades. It's the same as someone killing your mother by dissection, going to your house and saying "There was a misunderstanding, and we express regret. kthxbyenow". It has the PC-feel of the spokesperson's "We at [blank] express our condolences for the bereaved party".

And yes, I will stop going off on a tangent. Back to discussing Armenia!

[ionfish]

What do you think they should do, then? The point would seem to apply equally to Turkey, or any nation in such a position. Presumably you don't think that everyone should just hold onto their grudges for eternity; that just leads to more bloodshed. Reconciliation is a slow and painful process, but isn't it the only real way forward?

I'm asking this in all seriousness: once an event like the Armenian genocide has occurred, it can never be undone. The dead will not come back, the lives destroyed, the suffering caused, are fixed forever. But we are not the people who caused these events, and neither are the Turks or Japanese of today (mostly, anyway), and just as we acknowledge the often less than glittering past, we must also be prepared to lay down these burdens.

What I'm getting at is this: if apologies and remunerations are not sufficient, then what is? Vengeance? The human race has tried that quite a lot in the course of history, and all it ever seems to lead to is more suffering. And if real, sincere apologies are required (and I think they are) then how are we to gauge their sincerity? It may be that Japan has not truly accepted its past; Turkey certainly hasn't. But how can we expect improvement if we belittle the attempts they have made?

[Rayden]

if apologies and remunerations are not sufficient, then what is?
Just accept it like it was and remember it and try to never let it happen again, and don't blame anyone because it's too late. People should stop to blame decendents of the generation who did that. The only thing they reach by that is anger and annoyance after a certain time.

Anyway turkey just should not lie about that what happened because that is a insult to armenians.

[darkelf]

I totally agree Rayden, but it may be hard for the offended parties to accept.

[snrjefe]

My wife's grandfather (recently passed away at 97) experienced the Armenian genocide first hand. He saw his father murdered and was cast off into the desert with his mother and younger brother and the remaining villagers.

He never wanted an apology or reparations or other form of redress as it would not have changed what happened. He just wanted people to know that it happened and remember those who suffered.

U.S. Public Broadcasting ran a mini-series on the Armenians that is quite good. If you happen across it, or the DVD of it, I recommend it for those interested in learning more about a culture that was nearly eradicated.

[Vaarok]

Wasn't Turkey still Ottoman at the time? After Mustafa Kemal Attaturk modernized the country, it bore very little resemblance to what it was before and during the first world war.

[ionfish]

That's right, Vaar, although I don't see that it changes much. No one's saying that the genocide was caused by the current government -- just that they should admit that it happened, and was perpetrated in an organised fashion by the government of the day. A quick look at the relevant Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide) and the discussion page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Armenian_Genocide) demonstrates the extent to which this is still a heated topic.

[Vaarok]

Well, while I do not discount it's a horrible thing, or that it should be made known, it's rather like expecting the present-day Russian or Finnish governments to apologise for the tactics of the Loyalist Whites during the Russian revolution. Also, culturally, there's not much resemblance between the 19th century Ottoman Turkey and post-WW1 rapidly westernized Turkey.

I hold the opinion that it is better to make such things known to have happened, yet also allow the anger and blame-assignment to fade away with time. Determining who is the inheritor of fault solves nothing, changes nothing, and serves only to draw what hurt remains back to the surface to little possible resolution save empty political gesturing.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

The scale of the Armenian genocide is far vaster and the reasons far more ugly than any political purge or repression campaign.

Vaarok, I think one of the main issues was getting the modern Turkey to admit that it happened. You know?

[ionfish]

I'd go so far as to say it was the issue. The present-day German government aren't Nazis, but they admit the Holocaust happened nonetheless.

[Tails]

As someone of full Armenian descent, I have my side of the story. My great grandfather was tortured and killed by Turkish authorties, driving the rest of my family out of Turkey-Armenia and forcing them to flee for their leaves, leaving all of their belongings behind.

After 90 years, the Turkish government is grasping at straws to keep the denial moving, but it has become painfully obvious that Turkey is guilty. First, they claimed killings never took place. When that was debunked, they claimed that people died, but from sickness, or they were criminals. Then, when that was refuted, the Turks desperately tried to pin the Armenians as criminals by saying all the bones found almost EVERY time a foundation is dug for a new building are from Turks killed from Armenians.

Obviously, any political body that denies the genocide is playing an obsequious political game and is being a sycophant towards Turkey for military or economic reasons. The Turkish government bribes university professors or convicted fellons (i.e. Samuel A. Weens) to write their propaganda. They also arrest authors in their country that do admit the genocide. Even their own Turkish citizens (i.e. Tamer Akcam).

Genocide is an incredibly atrocity, but when it's hard to imagine the inhumanity of attempting to bury such horrible war crimes and pretend they never happened. Why should this go unpunished?

Perhaps you can tell it to my fatherless grandfather, still waiting for a memory of justice.

http://la.indymedia.org/uploads/armenian_genocide03.jpg

[General Nuke Em]

While I agree with you Tails, one of the problems today is that 1.5 million people who died 90 years ago aren't terribly important in international politics.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

Unless they're Jews.

Harsh I know, but the Holocaust seems to be Israels excuse for every f*cked up thing it does.

[Worf]

For saying that I would be called a Nazi in my country n0z3k1ll3r.
Though that is how many young people feel here.

Turkey really should admit that it happens and stop trying to bury the truth. Though nothing they do beyond that will bring back your great-grandfather Talis nor lessen the pain your family suffered from. And how would you want to punish them? And who should punish them?
Imho the important thing is to remember and ensure something like that never happens again.

[Tails]

When it comes to international politics, this genocide plays a factor into Turkey's admission into the EU because it is a glaring blemish of their history of doing anything remotely humanitarian as well as their overt opportunistic hypocrasy (i.e.Armenian Genocide, Cyprus, No civil rights, fundamentalist ideology of government posing as a democracy). Also, this genocide as a recognized genocide has a part to play in reparations, something that insurance companies have done for Native Americans and Jews.

I know that nothing will change history and nothing will bring the rest of my family back to life, but it's terrible to think that Turkey is trying to rewrite history and attempt to fool the world into thinking it has turned a new, innocent leaf.

How to punish them? I'm not so naive as to think Turkey will break and give all the land and money back as reparations. But if in the face of such an atrocious act Turkey is so ass-backwards that it can't even bring itself to admit, let the world know Turkey can't be trusted!

=====

By the way, Arnold Schwarzenegger movies are banned in Turkey because Schwarzenegger, as governer of California, officially recognized the Armenian Genocide.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

I'm beginning to think it's not entirely a problem with Turkey. At least, not with modern Turkey.

Point 1: The atrocities were commited by the Ottoman Empire, who were a completely seperate entity with no real link to modern Turkey at a governmental level when you get down to it.

Point 2: While they're being a bit horrible in denying it ever occured, should they admit it someone will try and sue them or something so they can make a gain out of it. We're people. It's what we do, cheat and abuse things for our own profit.

If some sort of measure through the UN was established where a government could apologise for an action commited by a previous government, regime, leader etc while officially preventing people from taking action against them (like Parliamentary Privilege in Australia, but on a bigger scale), then I think Turkey would acknowledge the genocide and apologise. And John Howard would acknowledge the Stolen Generation and apologise. And so forth.

[SquidDNA]

Whoa, that made me dizzy for a second..

An international class-action wrongful death civil suit.

Noze, that's brilliant.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

What can I say? I'm awesome ;)

[Tails]

Point 1: The atrocities were commited by the Ottoman Empire, who were a completely seperate entity with no real link to modern Turkey at a governmental level when you get down to it.

If that is true, why is Turkey still furiously denying the genocide? Why don't they claim what happened in 1915 was a terrible mistake and move on? Two reasons:

1. Last time they did that was in 1915. When Abdul Hamid II (who started the Armenian genocide in the first place in 1895) was out of the throne and replaced by a republican government of the Young Turks, there was a promise of a time of enlightenment in Turkey, in which Turkey would become a place of tolerance between Mulsims and Christians, Turks and Armenians. The Young Turks, rather than implement the policies of liberty and freedom that they preached, accelerated the rate of massacres exponentially. They are even quoted to say "What Abdul Hamid couldn't do in 20 years we did in 2 months" (referring to the extermination of Armenians). So much for Turkish liberties.

2. They've been denying it too long to turn back now. If they do accept it, they'll have an atrocious on-the-record reputation, as opposed to their atrocious off-the-record reputation.

So, basically, Turkey is just tied to its shitty political history, and they are desperate to buy themselves an ounce of credibility.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

If that is true, why is Turkey still furiously denying the genocide?Because if they admit it, people will not let them move on, they'll try and pin the blame on them for their own advantage. Simple fact of human behaviour. Even if the young Turkish republic continued with the atrocities, are they the same people running the country now?

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Somehow that is not so terrible a backlash for such a crime Noze.

[Tails]

In other words, Germany should have denied the holocaust even happened because people will not let them move on? Nazis lost control of the country since World War II, but that didn't stop future leaders from apologizing to the Jews and giving them at least a pittance of reperations to show that they have advanced since then.

Why does Turkey not do the same? Would it not be one step towards healing the wound?

[n0z3k1ll3r]

In other words, Germany should have denied the holocaust even happened because people will not let them move on? Nazis lost control of the country since World War II, but that didn't stop future leaders from apologizing to the Jews and giving them at least a pittance of reperations to show that they have advanced since then.The Nazis were punished VERY harshly at the right time (ie when the people responsible were still around). No-one in their right mind would try punishing the current German leadership after the Nuremberg Trials. Turkey wasn't, hence there is no doubt pent up aggression, spite, etc from the decendants of those who suffered.

[Bonnet]

Oh for god sakes, read a history book. Turkey has changed hands multiple times since than. Namely its no longer Ottoman Empire.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

Oh for god sakes, read a history book. Turkey has changed hands multiple times since than. Namely its no longer Ottoman Empire.Uh, yeah... that's precisely my point.

[Tails]

Then why does it support the Ottoman Empire, claiming it did nothing wrong to its Christian subjects?

[dmille]

n0z3k1||3r: Israel still has a sizable population of people who survived the Holocaust. Furthermore, the Holocuast was one in a string of incidents. The suggestion that the Holocaust is used as an "excuse" is crude, laughable, and incorrect. The "excuse" used is the right of a sovereign state to defend itself against neighbors that consider themselves to be (or formally are) at war with it.

What's more, the connection between the Ottoman Empire's dealings with Armenians and contemporary Turkey is stronger than you claim. Modern Turkey, of course, is the brainchild of Mustafa Kemal, whose primary aim was... Turkish racial purity! His government once boased that it had achieved 99.7% Turkish purity (and to do this, all they had to do was slaughter half the Kurds and rename the other half "Mountain Turks!")

While I'm not accusing contemporary Turkey of carrying on these policies, your claim that it's merely a past Ottoman problem is totally incorrect.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

n0z3k1||3r: Israel still has a sizable population of people who survived the Holocaust. Furthermore, the Holocuast was one in a string of incidents. The suggestion that the Holocaust is used as an "excuse" is crude, laughable, and incorrect. The "excuse" used is the right of a sovereign state to defend itself against neighbors that consider themselves to be (or formally are) at war with it.As long as Israelis continue to throw terms like Nazi at anyone defending Palestinian actions, I will continue to view their actions this way. Israel was largely granted out of sympathy for the Holocaust, and people are often scared to speak out against Israel for fear of being labeled Anti Semites (which is stupid anyway, Semite actually means Arab not Jew).

What's more, the connection between the Ottoman Empire's dealings with Armenians and contemporary Turkey is stronger than you claim. Modern Turkey, of course, is the brainchild of Mustafa Kemal, whose primary aim was... Turkish racial purity! His government once boased that it had achieved 99.7% Turkish purity (and to do this, all they had to do was slaughter half the Kurds and rename the other half "Mountain Turks!")

While I'm not accusing contemporary Turkey of carrying on these policies, your claim that it's merely a past Ottoman problem is totally incorrect.I conceded that more or less earlier, but nonetheless blaming the current government for the events of 1915 is laughable. Yet people doubtlessly will do it if the current government concedes that the events occured.

[dmille]

Actually, "a Jew" has been adopted in many dictionaries as the primary definition of Semite. While Arabs are also technically (under the older definition) Semites too, it does not exclusively refer to Arabs as you sanctimonously and incorrectly claim ("Semite means Arab not Jew").

Israel does not needlessly throw the term "Nazi" around and, in fact, does so rather rarely. Considering the the history of Haj Amin al-Husseini, the Mufti of Jerusalem during World War II and the total reformation of many Arab societies in emulation of Nazi Germany before the war, such concerns are not entirely out of line.

In case your knowledge of Jerusalem's friendly Mufti compares with your knowledege of the Ottoman Empire, let's do a quick refresher course. Quote time:


In 1933 (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=49p5m53gil0o6?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=1933&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc03b), within weeks of Hitler (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=49p5m53gil0o6?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Adolf+Hitler&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc03b)'s rise to power in Germany (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=49p5m53gil0o6?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Germany&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc03b), al-Husayni sent a telegram to Berlin addressed to the German counsul-general in the British Mandate of Palestine (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=49p5m53gil0o6?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=British+Mandate+of+Palestine&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc03b) saying he looked forward to spreading their ideology in the Middle East, especially in Palestine and offered his services. Al-Husayni's offer was rejected at first out of concern for disrupting Anglo-German relations by allying with an anti-British leader. But one month later, Al-Husayni secretly met Wolff, the German Consul-General, near the Dead Sea and expressed his approval of the anti-Jewish boycott in Germany and asked him not to send any Jews to Palestine. Later that year, the Mufti's assistants approached Wolff, seeking his help in establishing a National Socialist Arab party in Palestine. Wolff and his superiors disapproved because they didn't want to become involved in a British sphere of influence, the Nazi's desired further Jewish immigration to Palestine, and because the Nazi party, was restricted to German speaking "Aryans" only.

On 21 July 1937, Al-Husayni paid a visit to the new German Consul-General, Döhle, in Palestine. He repeated his former support for Germany and "wanted to know to what extent the Third Reich was prepared to support the Arab movement against the Jews"


After meeting Hitler (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=49p5m53gil0o6?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Adolf+Hitler&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc03b) and Ribbentrop (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=49p5m53gil0o6?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Joachim+von+Ribbentrop&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc03b) in Berlin in 1941, the Mufti was made an SS Gruppenfuehrer by Reichsfuehrer-SS Heinrich Himmler (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=49p5m53gil0o6?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Heinrich+Himmler&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc03b).


Beginning in 1943 (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=49p5m53gil0o6?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=1943&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc03b), al-Husayni was involved in the organization and formation of Bosnian (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=49p5m53gil0o6?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Bosnia+and+Herzegovina&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc03b) Muslims (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=49p5m53gil0o6?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Muslim&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc03b) into several divisions of the Waffen SS (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=49p5m53gil0o6?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Waffen-SS&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc03b) and other units.

We even have a neat picture! http://www.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/c/c3/180px-Han-arm.jpg


Now for what he, himself had to say (quotes available at both the this site (http://www.answers.com/topic/amin-al-husayni) and the easier to quote, but still quite valid, NY Jewish Times (http://www.nyjtimes.com/cover/03-08-05/NaziRootsOfPalestinianNationalism.htm) and Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haj_Amin_Al-Husseini):



"Our fundamental condition for cooperating with Germany was a free hand to eradicate every last Jew from Palestine and the Arab world. I asked Hitler for an explicit undertaking to allow us to solve the Jewish problem in a manner befitting our national and racial aspirations and according to the scientific methods innovated by Germany in the handling of its Jews. The answer I got was: The Jews are yours."

Former Mufti of Jerusalem Haj Amin al-Husseini in his post-World War II memoirs. [1}

"The Mufti was one of the initiators of the systematic extermination of European Jewry and had been a collaborator and adviser of Eichmann and Himmler in the execution of this plan... He was one of Eichmann's best friends and had constantly incited him to accelerate the extermination measures."

Adolf Eichmann`s deputy Dieter Wisliceny in his Nuremberg Trials testimony. [2]


Don't worry, everyone! n0z3k1||3r says that Israel's irrationally worried about Nazis!


So you're entirely in favor of not coming clean on past problems before the world, provided you're not the United States... I now understand more of your "logic."


How you continue to view Israel's actions isn't particularly significant, but it still appears entirely illogical. Israel doesn't throw the term at "anyone" defending Palestinian actions - it throws the term at those who support what remains a stated PLO aim - the elimination of Israel and "driving [the] Jews into the sea" - something they still have in their charter. Familiarity with history again, would greatly help you improve the accuracy of your posts.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

The term was thrown at an Israeli lawyer defending an attempted Palestinian Suicide Bomber. Try explaining that one to me. I'm referring not to the Government as using it, but to the people, which tends to be more serious.

[dmille]

Did you even care to read and respond to the substantive points above, or, as they don't fit your condemnation of Israel, will you merely ignore them?

So you're saying that a minority of outraged people screaming something at someone defending the attempted murderer of their family and friends is the basis of your ignorant scorn and antipathy?

Whatever logic points you'd gained were just lost - with an added penalty.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

Failure to respond in my case means agreement. I'm not denying those points because they're probably completely accurate.

Secondly I'm arguing with you in two threads simultaneously, so please excuse me for being brief and possibly a bit vague in either. I'm tired besides ;)

[dmille]

So, then, you've effectively granted that the contents of the below are utter rubbish?

As long as Israelis continue to throw terms like Nazi at anyone defending Palestinian actions, I will continue to view their actions this way. Israel was largely granted out of sympathy for the Holocaust, and people are often scared to speak out against Israel for fear of being labeled Anti Semites (which is stupid anyway, Semite actually means Arab not Jew).

I'm arguing in the same two threads you are, and I'm rather sleep deprived myself. I think the problem might actually be the positions you're arguing :)

[Tails]

n0z3k1ll3r:
I conceded that more or less earlier, but nonetheless blaming the current government for the events of 1915 is laughable. Yet people doubtlessly will do it if the current government concedes that the events occured.

I still have no idea what point you're trying to make. Are you saying a government will get more respect if it stubbornly refuses to admit something almost every scholar in the world has copious amounts of proof of? Why would defending the villian give anyone a better image?

[n0z3k1ll3r]

Not utter rubbish, but possibly poorly phrased and easily misunderstood...

I don't actually remember what I meant anymore. I really need to wake up.

Semite does mean Arab, not Jew. Last I checked Jews were technically a religious subdivision of Arabs. So the term "Anti-Semite" being thrown at Arabs is you have to admit somewhat stupid.

I still have no idea what point you're trying to make. Are you saying a government will get more respect if it stubbornly refuses to admit something almost every scholar in the world has copious amounts of proof of? Why would defending the villian give anyone a better image?No, I'm saying the Turkish government has made the bad choice instead of the worse choice. They really don't have much of an alternative given current circumstances, namely the lack of a medium in which to apologise and acknoweledge without fear of recrimination. Any attempts at reconciliation stand a good chance of recieving a severe backlash at a Turkish government that really isn't responsible for the crimes commited. So they have no real choice but to deny they occured.

[dmille]

Actually, the term "Arab" refers to an inhabitant of the Arabian peninsula. The vast majority of Muslims in the world are non-Arabs, despite their second-class status.

The term "Semite," in its original definition is broader than Arab - and has now been classically adopted to reference hostility towards Jews. If you'd that we switch to "Nazi emulating Jew haters," for those under discussion, I think I could get on board.

Given the current situation with Armenia and Azerbaijan, a Turkish apology might help calm the region and avert yet another war. Last time, Russia was forced to step in. That might not be possible (or even plausible) in another situation, given strong Turkish antipathy. This is not merely a historical matter, but also a contemporary geo-poltiical one.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

I don't doubt that fear of backlash is a factor however, and I think the UN should take steps to establish a means where this can be prevented.

Anyways, I've gotta go to the doctors. Pleasure crossing swords with you dmille.

[dmille]

Always.
Given outside interests in the area (Azerbaijan is now the part of the route of a major oil pipeline ending in Turkey, attracting interest from the US, UK, Russia, Turkey, Iran, Japan, France, and a number of smaller European nations), it seems unlikely that the UN would be particularly useful. The multinational meetings jointly hosted by the US, NATO, and Russia might produce results at some point.

Interesting as always. Good luck at the doctors, provided it's something serious.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

Nah nothing serious, just renewing a proscription (sp?).

I really do think the UN needs a bit of a whack with the Reform stick. I really don't like the structure of the Security Council especially. A handful of countries are essentially above the law.

[dmille]

That's pretty low on my list of problems with the United Nations. My number one concern, of course, is that it's a forum for petty dictators that, despite what revisionist historians argue, has never truly been effective and is utterly lacking in moral power. The mere fact that everyone's a member does not bestow powers upon the organization.

I'd much rather see an organization with actual membership requirements including a certain level of human rights and democratic structure.

We're just a tad off topic at the moment, however.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

Human rights definately, but as I've argued elsewhere I don't want democratic structure to be a requirement. A lot of the poorer African nations really can't afford democracy. While a democracy tends to be fairer, it's also usually less efficient than a more autocratic government. The demands for democratisation placed upon those nations when they were loaned money by the IMF (I think) was one of the major things that prevented that money being put to good use and sparked the African Debt Crisis.

In my view democracy is a luxury, not a necessity. I'd rather be well of under a dictatorship than poor and democratic. This was one of the major reasons communism spread to poor nations btw, it wasn't really fair to people but it did improve poor countries very quickly. Democracies were much slower about it, though they often yielded better results in the long term.

[dmille]

I think that another major factor in the African Debt Crisis was that it was linked to the African Dictators Swiss Bank Account Crisis. Dictators who steal money (and I'm not sure we've seen any other type) are neither a luxury nor a necessity.

I'll take slightly wasteful democracy, thank you.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

Again, thats a case in some nations but not all. The democratic requirement layed down was a severe problem practically everywhere. Essentially nations were being forced to spend money on establishing a form of government that would hinder them. Not a good requirement.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Arab is also a cultural identity. For example, one of the major underlying causes of the Darfur massacres is tension between tribes who view themselves as Arab and tribes that do not.

[ionfish]

THIS IS NOT ABOUT ISRAEL.

Get over it and get on topic.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

Thanks Ion... I think we needed that.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

..Is there a deleted post i missed?