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View Full Version : 1.3 skirmish AI build routine's much weaker


Obake
12th May 05, 10:37 PM
Given the apparant desire to be more interested in winning ASAP rather than enjoying all aspects of the game, I've never really bothered with the MP side of the game unless it's with friends. Not to mention I'm stuck with 56k since I prefer staying away from city life as much as possible.

As a result, I spend a heck of a lot more time playing skirmish mode against the 'puter. It's nowhere near the challenge, but at least I know that there's a chance I may run into an Avatar or a BT every once in a while.

Point being I'm fairly conversant with the capabilities of the AI. I know what to expect on Easy, on Medium, on Hard and so on. After downloading the patch overnight I was looking forward to trying it out this evening, especially after all the outstanding reviews that everyone has put up about it............ :muffy:

I immediately noticed that something was not as I had expected it would be. Now, I'll usually play on Hard or worse so I decided to start out from there. Obviously I wanted to see how I'd fare against the Defiler's now so I set up a 1x1 SM v Chaos game.

I'm not the fastest builder in the world, and quite frankly my rushing sucks, which I'm glad for. Never underestimate the advantage of being bad at something! At any rate, with only two Scout squads I managed to cap 3/4th's of the SP's before even seeing a Cultist Squad. By that time I'd also built an SM squad, my FC and had a second SM squad on the way.

Usually by the time I've built 2 SM squads and my FC, I'm dealing with the AI's leader trying to get into my base. Not so any longer. Figuring it was an aberration, I sat around for a bit, tech'ed up to Tier 2 and threw out a couple of Whirlwinds along with a couple more SM squads. By the time all of that was done, I had only run into maybe 3 CSM squads and another Cultist. Figuring that the AI was going turtle, I moved in for the kill. I was quite suprised to find nothing more than a couple more CSM squads, a Raptor squad and 3 or 4 Heretics. All that the AI had built was the Temple and the Armory. No power generators, and only one of the SP's they had capped had been upgraded.

Now, my initial thought was that I had just capped too many SP's too quickly. I had the sinking feeling that this was not the case though, as NONE of those points were contested in any way by the AI. That was the unusual part. The AI tends to build and throw.

I tried things in reverse and took Chaos myself against SM's. Unfortunately it was the exact same thing. I barely was able to get a single Defiler built before it was game over and the SM's were trashed. I think I had 4-5 CSM squads, and two Cultists with NO armor.

Tried the same with Orks and Eldar as well and kept seeing the same thing. Nothing more than variations on a theme. I'm not sure exactly what got changed in the AI routines, but playing on Hard under 1.3 feels a lot like playing on Easy under 1.0.

I've yet to try Very Hard or Insane, but in all honesty, I'm expecting more of the same. I'll update as I work through it.

My guess is that not a lot of people posting here will have seen this as MP is all the rage, but for those who don't MP on a regular basis, this can be rather significant.

Played a few skirmish games on Harder and also on Insane.

I'm still getting owned by the AI on Insane, but Harder seems to be spot on for my skill level. Given that, it looks like the AI has been set back a grade when you're playing against it. In other words, if you've been playing on Standard, you'll need to bump yourself up to Hard to get the same challenge. If played on Harder, you'll need to go to Insane.

If you were already playing on Insane and beating multiple AI armies on a regular basis, then you suck! (jk) Regardless, no lovin for those of you who were...... not that you'd care, you're probably already at 1800 with 200 games under your belt since the patch was released anyway. :jaw:

LarkinVB
13th May 05, 12:16 AM
Did you ever tried the skirmish AI mod ? Reports are it is still working with v1.3.

theBlind
13th May 05, 2:09 AM
BTW, you can play DoW online with a 56k modem. As long as you have the machine to run the game well, you won't be causing any lag.
The only ones causing lag are those guys with maxed out graphic settings (and usually fullres teamcolors on top of that).

eltroubabadour
13th May 05, 2:38 AM
I also play skirmish vs cpu on 1 vs 1 maps, and usually with my SM troops i can defeat an insane AI no matter what race it is
I did like you did, i wanted to see the new balances changes and last evening i tried many games opposing me as SM vs the other races with AI set on harder.
I defeated orks and eldar easily and got big problems with chaos, i got tamed by CSM squads and cultists (no defiler) whereas i could beat them with 1.2 now on 1.3 i cant, i dont scout rush and the only way i found to keep up is going to fast armory and ASM because my vanilla SM got overrunned by fully reinforced CSM squads, i guess that heretics with 0 cap allowed the comp to buil more squads whereas i got to research more squad cap at HQ, wasting res (compare with the AI)

LoRd KoRn
13th May 05, 2:58 AM
I just played a game with the now weaken orks against a Insane Chaos. Well, the Chaos was doing pretty good for the matter that he did not bother to upgrade any LP's or build more then the few buildings Obake mentioned. The chaos also did not buy any Rocket Launchers. In the past I saw that the AI build RLs when they face vehicles...but not this time. Hed just no chance also because of the bug i saw in previous versions too: The Enemy runs with his whole army (that is bigger than the own) right through my base...and ork buildings punish that mistakes hard enough.
Im sorry to say that but the new patch is just....bad. Crushed AI, near killed orks, extreme overpowered Defiler and so on.

Obake
13th May 05, 6:21 AM
Thanks for that theBlind! I've seen so many "no 56k'er" threads that its just ridiculous. I may just have to give MP another chance now.

LoRd KoRn, I think it's overstating it a bit to say the skirmish AI is crushed. I'll agree that it's not building at the same level it did under 1.2, but it's still functional. You just have to up the difficulty level from what you may be used to.

I've done 5 years worth of beta testing for Creative Assembly on the TotalWar games, and also for the US Army, so I've got a pretty good idea on whether something is broken or not.

Jinxter78
13th May 05, 6:58 AM
Yes, the AI-mod seems to work fine

Road-kill
13th May 05, 6:58 AM
actually people with 'better' connections hog all the bandwith and *they* make it lag.

But anyway. Yea. The AI can be pretty dumb. Which is a shame as I prefer playing it. At least it doesn't exploit cheap tricks and doesn't yell obsceneties at you when you sneak attack his base with a commando force while the rest of your army keeps his entertained.

thudmeizer
13th May 05, 2:16 PM
Check out our v1.1 Skirmish AI (although much work is going into v1.2 at present). I'll give ya a royal challenge on HARDER+.

Inferior Being
13th May 05, 2:39 PM
I've tried your mod... very good, even on medium difficuilty!

A bit of a letdown is that the little buggers seems to run off every time I try assaulting them... This may be intensionally, though. I haven't tried it too much however, so I may be wrong. Anyway, the Mod-Manager is a pretty cool feature!

thudmeizer
13th May 05, 4:30 PM
Things are much better in the current v1.2 build. Lots of little enhancements + new features to come. Something Relic could soon take notice and MAYBE add into the expansion (although we're hoping for many more AI exported functions to make the AI even more lifelike).

TBS
13th May 05, 4:35 PM
people who say "no 56kers" are either idiots or misinformed.

You wont be able to play shooter games very well on dialup - but DoW will run flawlessly...in fact most RTSs will run flawlessly (the only issue is RTS's which allow the download of custom maps - dialup players can delay the start of the game hugely then, but DoW doesnt currently have that feature).

Obake
13th May 05, 8:31 PM
Link Thudmeizer?

TBS, the whole 56k vs "broadband" argument depends on the netcode for a given game. Are we talking about peer to peer or client/server architecture. P2P of course is going to have less issues with connection speed, but on c/s it IS going to make a difference. Granted it may be minimal in a 1x1 environment but the underlying architecture does play a role.

That's the one thing that kept me playing the TotalWar franchise in MP so long was the P2P netcode. Be that as it may, broadband and RTS style games IS highly over-rated for general gameplay.

On a side note, I'm curious as to why this was moved to Tech Support as it was intended as a discussion about the AI under v1.3 and wasn't about balancing.

reinefrost
14th May 05, 12:11 AM
Hmm, yeah, the AI seems a little 'retarded'. On INSANE, it wouldn't tech as fast as it has before on 1.2. I played vs Chaos, it just churns out 3 squads of CSMs and sits happily around waiting to be attacked, nor has it upgraded its LPs. I'm d/loading Thudmeizer's Dawn of Skirmish AI for tests later.
Quick question, what does the Mod-Manager actually loads?