BS:G Discussion - Most Recent Ep

[SACSlym]

As the topic will focus on the most recent episode of BattleStar Galactica there will of course be spoilers, you have been warned---



Something that came to mind as I watched last nights episode was what happened in Athenas Tomb. How exactly did they move from a dark and dank room to a open field with StoneHenge overtones? Are we looking at an religious explanation that forever comfirms and dooms the series to a god that is all powerfull and moves the characters about like pawns, or is there an actual technological explanation that will save me from the earlier mentioned possibility? Thoughts? Other reasons?

Also feel free to open up discussion on other parts to the episode/series you might want to discuss.

[SquidDNA]

"Dooms" ?

[Atreides]

Boomer is hot,

Starbuck is growing on me.

[Stripe7]

I like Sharon!!!!! Yummy! Grace Parks is awsome. I would think its more like the BS-G version of a holodeck, where they went to.

[A176]

Why do you need a logical explanation? Anyways, I would believe this falls under the whole general premise of "real, religious, or cylon trick?" that has prevailed throughout the series.

If you really want to start questioning the series, wait for next week's episode and watch Boomer give birth to the "baby" (or you could just watch and enjoy the series, rather than criticize and make it go the way of Enterprise...:))

[DukeOfChaos]

I agree that it is probably a relative of the holodeck. A lot of things that they could see didnt add up, like the Lagoon Nebula being huge, the constellations being brighter than they are actually. The point is that it showed them the way to Earth. How long it takes them is still up for grabs, as Commander Adama said "Its a long ways from here."

[Reignfire]

I've been looking at SciFi.com's BSG board: http://mboard.scifi.com/postlist.php?Cat=0&Board=BattlestarGalactica&page=0. I have to say some interesting theories have popped-up there.

[Moe]

I really want to know what the hell this whole Doc-and-his-hot-imaginary-friend thing is all about.

[A176]

remember from the original series...those "other" aliens? perhaps that's what she is.

[SACSlym]

Thats what i was also considering, the possibility that the god the cylons worship was in fact the devil from the original series, of course they weren't gods but rather a very advanced alien species. Its not like im criticizing it, i just wanted to hear other peoples thoughts.

As for Docs imaginery friend, i think theres a possibility that there is still something implanted in him, just not in his brain. If you recall that little oddity many episodes ago when her spine glowed while they made love, perhaps theres something in or along his spinal column thats messing with his synapses? It's farfetched but i just looked upon that scene as odd considering it wasn't explained.

Still was funny watching him react like a drug addict when she played that game with him. How he then turned right around unable to live without the idea that God has a plan for him.

[Atreides]

Boomer's spine glowed during sex too...

maybe a cylon orgasm. Something like this:

:cylon: + :censored: = :gonemad:

[SACSlym]

ok then, i missed that, guess ill have to start over again

[InQubus666]

The transition between the "lobby" of Athena's Tomb to the "heart" of it is abrupt at best. There doesn't seem to be any evidence of holographic projections, or any device that created the scene before them. Me thinks its some type of elevator/platform they were sitting on that made the transition from one location to another.

As for Sharon, man she does some wacky things. First she shoots Commander Adama from the last season, now she shoots whats-his-name who tries to covince her to turn on the Captain and the rest of the team. I must say, I was a bit surprised when she shot'em and immediately gave the gun to Adama to prove that she's not another Cyclon with programmed objectives...or is she?

[Mac_Bug]

if you can't see that coming i don't think you're qualified to comment :umm:

[Chrome]

I'd go with a holodeck set up. Certain things could be made bigger for emphasis--the constellations, the nebulae, the stones with stars in them, and so on.

Great idea with the spine, BTW. Everyone would think to check the BRAIN for chips and the like. :D

Who's to say the baby has a normal growth rate, and doesn't pop out in 3 days like John and Aeryn's kid? :P That'd accelerate things a little bit, and definitely make this Cylon-human hybrid...inhuman.

[The5thElephant]

Well her stomach hasn't swelled at all so I imagine it at least takes a few months.

About Baltar's imaginary hot friend: Sure he got his head scanned, but that doesn't mean he doesn't actually have a cylon device in his head. The human-cylons are undetectable by normal scans (they can only be detected by Baltar's blood tests) so why can't they just implant an organic and undetectable thingy in his head?

One thing that bothers me though is that Dr. Baltar seems far too willing to go along with the hotness in killing the human race even if she is an 'angel sent from god'.

Also there doesn't seem to be anyone except one or two people who accept the cylon-humans as people. I mean yeah they destroyed all their homes but in that many people there would have to be a few humans who believe that a machine of that complexity can be considered a person.

EDIT: Oh and I just thought of something. If the hot woman in Baltar's brain is not a cylon then why does she look just like other cylons? Does this all powerful god have some cruel sense of humour where he enjoy tricking people?

[Mr Carrot]

I feel that a healthy level of xenopobia against they cylons is not only justified its necessary for the survivial of the human race. Wars falter when you humanise an enemy, it would be fracking stupid to humanise an enemy that isnt human.

Any entity that can be "reborn" ad infinitum can never be considered trustowrthy because they have no human limit to their plans. Thus there is never a reason to ever sympathise with them.

[The5thElephant]

Uhhh yes there is cause some of them feel and have emotions and anything else considered necessary for something to be sentient. Also when you don't humanise (which I think is the wrong word because I don't suggest considering them human, I suggest considering them as worthy as humans in terms of the value of their life) your opponent you end up committing genocide or doing other such terrible things.

Another thing is that its implied that the cylons are killing the humans not because they are inherently evil but rather because they think that the humans are inherently evil and destructive. They aren't bad JUST because they are robots.

[A176]

fifth: boomer gives birth in the next episode ;|

[Bonnet]

5th, you do realize the cylons effectively comitted genocide against the humans already. Faltering for a moment in killing them is not an option, if the members of the fleet do its the remainder of there species they risk.

[The5thElephant]

So you think Boomer and her child should just be killed?

[SACSlym]

i think the cylons have a warped perspective that in itself inhibits relations between them and humans. Mostly since when they look at a human they dont see a possibility, nor anything beyond whats "already been written". And whether or not its true doesnt matter, humans take pride in their significance and to face a race that sees no significance in but a few of them, well they aren't going to respond well.

Cylons are troublesome because they are religous fanatics, their decisions often defying all logic. Hence why its hard for us to trust Boomer, i mean she still is up to something, considering if she had really wanted to stay with Helo, why did she leave in the Raider? Where exactly did she go for those episodes?

Leaving those questions aside, if theres anyone who should die, i really vote for the CO's wife, god id love to see her go flying out an airlock.

[Chrome]

I'm going to second that. The woman is annoying!

Not to mention she is a very bad influence on Tigh--causing him to make decisions he wouldn't while around Adama. It's safe to say Tigh just isn't strong-willed enough for command. He lets the littlest things sway him, rather than listening to common sense.

And yes the whole deal with Baltar and Number Six is getting confusing now. I agree with 5th. The device could very easily be hidden as organic Cylon tech. And of course there's his spine, and probably a few other places to consider.

Six appears pretty religiously angled, and tends to couch things in very fanatical terms. With that in mind, she could still have been speaking figuratively when she said she was an angel of God.

And Baltar really doesn't have much room to resist now, does he? He's dug himself in so deep getting out would probably get himself killed. And doubtless he's afraid of her, of her power over him.

[SACSlym]

Its not only that she has power over him, but more and more i see him as an addict to the things she tells him, desperate to be special in eyes of god. Just an interesting turn around that the most recent ep put in perspective for me.

[A176]

God created man, man destroyed god.

Man created robot, robot destroyed man.

Robot creates the future...on the next Battlestar Galactica.

[DatonKallandor]

We are the architects of our own destruction. :cylon:

[Cheech Marin]

So you think Boomer and her child should just be killed?

Yes, they are just machines, after all. :borg:

[DatonKallandor]

Are they? Can machines be "born"? When does the machine stop being a machine and becomes human? How many percent biological parts does it take?


Daton

[Reignfire]

Ok, this is going back to the first season, but there's something that always bugged me. What I want to know is when and where between the time of the Mini-Series and the episode 'The Hand of God' were they able to produce plastic models of ships? Even if they had models of all military ships, where did the models of the Raiders and Civilian ships come from?

http://galactica.emedian.net/episode/1.10/images/BSG04EP10_2230CS.JPG

[Atreides]

Hey, I want some!

As to how, I imagine people on their off duty time have lots of rack time or just look for something to do. Building models would be one I would do (like Adama and his boat)

[Starfisher]

What's more disturbing about the magic constellation room is that they never get out of it... they just are out of it. Somehow. This room that they magically teleport to. They just... are out. I was curious to see how they would manage to pull that one off.

I also like how Adama doesn't bring some marines with him. The show started out with this apparent commitment to internal consistency and reality, but now it's sliding with things like that - most of the major characters are down on the "away team" and Ensign Richie buys it. The President can get away with it because she's insane, but Adama, who just recovered from being shot, wouldn't decide to hike across rugged terrain with non-combat personnel, with him ON POINT. Gar.

Oh well. It's still interesting, but I hope that they can free themselves from the religious crap they're becoming mired in to return to the hard sci-fi it used to be. Made for TV religion tends to be pretty annoying when it's such a main part of a story, especially when the plot used to be driven by at least semi-realistic motivations.

[Chrome]

My thinking is the tomb was like a holodeck. After a period of time it shut off, and returned them to the cold, dark tomb. So all they would've had to do is just open the door again, and walk back out.

Come to think of it, that wouldn't have been a hard sequence to do. Seems like a cutscene looking to be restored...

[The5thElephant]

Yes, they are just machines, after all.

So if you were standing there with a gun when that child is born you would have no qualms shooting both her and her mother? Even though both appear to have emotions (which is just a chemical in humans and probably is just a chemical in the cylons, so what's the difference?) and free will and personal wants and needs?

I know I would not be able to. I don't believe there is anything special about humans, we are just biological creatures, nothing ethereal or metaphysical about the fact that we think or feel. And these human-cylons are no different except for their source.

[Starfisher]

Yeah, I would be able to shoot something that had just killed all my friends and family, and had already shot the man who had kept me alive so far.

We're just animals, and animals try to survive. Letting her live is like letting a live cobra flit around your apartment while you sleep. She's told them that she remembers being on board the ship, which means she can transmit information from wherever Galactica is to Caprica. Which means that just by existing she's a massive liability.

I mean, are you seriously saying that just because on a chemical level we may be more or less equivalent, we should ignore devastating threats to our existance?

[Zepherian]

Doc's Imaginery girlfriend is actually a supository Moe.

[SACSlym]

Well id imagine the Cylon raiders were pre made as im sure there was some intelligence on what the cylons were using for their basic fighter.

Onto more important matters, i think its becoming quite obvious that we have a Cylon in our midst, *cough* elephant :cylon:

[Cheech Marin]

Fifth, care to follow me to this airlock over here?

[A176]

you people delve too much into this - the beauty of the new BSG is the way the story is told, the way its filmed, the sheer amount of drama and conflict portrayed by the actors. i mean - what does it matter how they left the tomb of athena, to go into the next scene? :|

anyways, i would agree that a lot of things happening this season just seem odd, but the writers have been throwing these kind of things throughout season 1 and it all made sense in the end. i guess we'd just need to sit tight and wait for the episodes :)

[Reignfire]

Well id imagine the Cylon raiders were pre made as im sure there was some intelligence on what the cylons were using for their basic fighter.
I could see that except at the beginning of the Mini-Series they explain that no one has seen any signs of the Cylons in over 40 years. I don't remember if in the museum section of Galactica there is a model of the old Raiders or not, but I'd imagine they would look like the ones from the original series (just like with the Centurion and Basestar).

[The5thElephant]

Yeah, I would be able to shoot something that had just killed all my friends and family, and had already shot the man who had kept me alive so far.

We're just animals, and animals try to survive. Letting her live is like letting a live cobra flit around your apartment while you sleep. She's told them that she remembers being on board the ship, which means she can transmit information from wherever Galactica is to Caprica. Which means that just by existing she's a massive liability.

I mean, are you seriously saying that just because on a chemical level we may be more or less equivalent, we should ignore devastating threats to our existance?

I still don't think you would have it in you to shoot her. I believe the Cylons as a whole are a threat to the human race, but the cylon-humans as individuals appear not to be. I mean I will be dissapointed if in the end it just turns out they were all faking the being in love and all that for some evil long term purpose but I doubt that will happen because in one of the earlier episodes you see one of the hot cylons talking to some other cylon-human and they are discussing how they wish they could actually fall in love because they see Boomer is falling in love. That was just two cylons talking to each other so it is not like they were trying to fool anyone.

[SACSlym]

I remembered that as well reign, but i took it on from the continuity defender who works for BSG who would prolly tell a long tale about the "SECRET MISSION" that many spies undertook to scrape up the technical knowledge to build little cylon fighters that possibly someday could be used to plot out a single battle. Also going into detail on how no one except a few high ups were ever briefed on this mission, and how those same high ups all died in the Cylon's attack, forever sealing the mystery of the models.

Or it just makes entirely no sense, whichever you want :D

[Starfisher]

I still don't think you would have it in you to shoot her. ... You don't think a genocide in which I lost everything would motivate me to eliminate a demonstrated threat and perpetrator of that genocide?

[CompulsiveGamer]

The whole Adama having the "chest pain" thing was the most annoying part of an otherwise great episode - now I'm CONVINCED he's a Cylon. :err:

[SACSlym]

i doubt it, seems to me cylons are real sticklers for skin care, and he really needs some revitalizing lotion :lol:

[Reignfire]

Just watch the new episode again, always crack-up at this part:
Cottle: Hey. Will you stop going crazy in there?

Baltar: I'm not crazy.
http://www.galacticastation.com/Galactica%20Station/Screencaps/S2/207/images/bscap124.jpg ;)

[Reignfire]

Had to post this: Five-Minute "Battlestar Galactica: The Miniseries" (http://www.fiveminute.net/movies/battlestargalactica.html)
Great stuff.

[DukeOfChaos]

Priceless. That pretty much summed up the miniseries.

[SACSlym]

[Spoiler Alert]
Well it looks like some bad shit is going to go down in the next episode, wonder if it had anything to do with the liberal med.... cylon's visit, or if it is the remnants of the last cylon attack.

Kinda odd the cylons were surprised that Sharon was still alive, considering they generally expect everything to be as it should be. Could that be a hint to a movement away from the set universe?

[Reignfire]

I agree, it will be interesting seeing Sharon plugged into the Galactica:
http://galactica.emedian.net/episode/2.09/thumbnails/tn2BATehC04.jpg (http://galactica.emedian.net/episode/2.09/images/2BATehC04.jpg)http://galactica.emedian.net/episode/2.09/thumbnails/tn2BATffC04.jpg (http://galactica.emedian.net/episode/2.09/images/2BATffC04.jpg)

Also, I really want to know what starts this fight between The Chief and Helo (probably Sharon related):
http://galactica.emedian.net/episode/2.09/thumbnails/tn2BATeiC04.jpg (http://galactica.emedian.net/episode/2.09/images/2BATeiC04.jpg)

[IgnusDei]

wow, that's some real fury there on tyrol's face.

yep, only women can make men go that nuts.

[Reignfire]

Kinda odd the cylons were surprised that Sharon was still alive, considering they generally expect everything to be as it should be. Could that be a hint to a movement away from the set universe?
I have my doubts about the Fleet being part of their "Plan". Here's the ending of the Mini-Series:
LEOBEN: Where did they go?

DORAL: I... don't know... they were preparing for a... big Jump...

DORAL #2: We can't let them go.

NUMBER SIX #2: Unfortunately I agree.

NUMBER SIX #3: If we don't they'll return one day and seek revenge.

LEOBEN #3: It's in their nature. It may take several decades to track them down.

SHARON #2: Don't worry. We'll find them.Sounds like they just wanted to wipe them out except now they have the baby which is part of their "Plan".

[TheDeadlyShoe]

At least it tells us that Schizo-Cylon isn't in contact with the rest of them.

[Mac_Bug]

:slow: hoooooooooot cylons

[SACSlym]

hoooooooooot cylons

IN OUR BRAINS!!!111 :elephant:

[Moe]

Very interesting indeed. So how many Cylons in the fleet are left unidentified?

Very interesting indeed. So how many Cylons in the fleet are left unidentified?

[SACSlym]

She said 8, so 7 then?

[A176]

+1

:umm:

[Gyokuran]

5th, I don't think you get it. It has nothing to do with them having emotions or not, the fact is they killed uncounted billions of humans and are now (to the characters in BSG at least though its arguable if they actually are) attempting to wipe out the last 45,000 survivors of the human race in any way possible. If I was in that situation, there is no way in hell I would trust any cyon, ever. At the vary least I would keep them imprisoned, but even having one aboard the ship is a tremendous security risk because they don't know what all the cylons can do. The most prudent thing to do in that situation would be to kill the cylon, and jettison them into space. They may be transmitting fleet locations, or even entire conversations and video back to the clyon fleet which would be used against them. Also if I remember right, the previous imprisoned cylon displayed superhuman strength by simply breaking apart his restraints. Its not totally clear if the brig is capable of even withholding them. The last thing I'd want during a cylon attack would be some inhumanly strong cylong suddenly riping out the bars to the brig and escaping. Hell, they could even be living bombs. The point is they don't know what the humanoid cylons are capable of, and that poses a humongous security risk.

Obviously because this is a TV show we know Sharon is going to play some role in saving the Galactica or some other benifit. But if it was real life, the chances of that would be pretty much nill.

If the fleet was to evade the clyons and make landfall somewhere and rebuild the human race, I sure as hell wouldnt seek out the cylons for revenge. But I sure as hell would be ready for them if they were to attack again.

Its been estabilished that there are 12 humanoid cylons, I think they've unmasked 6 of them so far.

[Reignfire]

OMG! Anyone else watch the Mid-Season Finale? I don't think I can last 'til January!

[Starfisher]

*ahem*

WORST GODDAMN MARKETING PLOY EVER EVERYONE AT SCIFI SHOULD DIE SPECIAL MESSAGE MY ASS EVERYONE DIE DIE DIE DIE

[Atreides]

Bah!

Kill Maim Destroy!!!

[SACSlym]

Agreed fisher, WHERE THE HELL WAS THAT MESSAGE?!

anywho, $10 her x-o shoots her

who knew an entire ship could be filled with assholes though (other than space balls), i dont think theres one human on that entire ship that i wouldn't enjoy watching take a walk out the air lock.

[NovaBurn]

BSG for the win. I will retreat into hibernation until January. BTW There are 12 unique cylons models, not clones of the ones we've seen so far. To date there are Sharron, #6, Lucy Lawless' character, the philosophical one, Simon the doctor, and the reporter guy from the miniseries that they locked in ragnor station. So currently we have a total of 6 found so far.

I expect great things from season 3.

[Reignfire]

Actually, Season 2 isn't over. I know they called it the Season Finale, but it's actually a Mid-Season Finale. Sci-Fi does this for all of their shows.

I agree that advisory message wasn't needed. However, if they went with the other version, they would have.
This whole sequence of Sharon being raped by Lieutenant Thorne was one of much controversy as you can imagine. On the page we wrote this the way it's essentially cut here in this version of the show where the rape is averted at the last minute. It was shot a different way, we shot the whole rape. We shot a very disturbing rape sequence of Thorne raping Sharon, and there was a version cut where the guys come in and it's happening as opposed to about to happen. And there was a lot of controversy back and forth, and ultimately we opted to go with this version, where they come in just as the rape is happening... This is a really dark scene, this is a dark storyline. Things happened on Pegasus that you don't want to know about, and suddenly they're happening on our ship. And I like the fact that Helo and Tyrol, in the episode that precedes this one, were literally at each other's throats for a moment, that they both come charging in when this horrific thing is happening with Sharon. And they get in there and they go at these guys, and then Thorne is killed. It wasn't intended to happen, none of them set out to do this, but it just happened in the moment, that he was killed accidentally. And that that would set off a chain of events.

This is the one-hour version of Pegasus. We struggled mightily to get this show to time. And when the footage was complete, I believe the director's cut was a good fifteen minutes over, which is a bit of problem, because that's more than an act's worth of material. And as we tried in varying ways to get this down to the hour running length, I kept feeling like, the best version of the show was the longer version. So we actually explored for a while the possibility of showing a 90 minute version of Pegasus, and there was various discussions with the network back and forth. Ultimately, one of the problems was, we had an episode that was too long for an hour and too short for 90 minutes. We could never quite plump it out to the point where it could be a 90 minute show, and it was always very difficult to pare it down to an hour show. So we finally got it down to an hour, rather than pad it out, and just make it slow to get to 90 minutes. We compromised and decided to go with the fastest barnburner of an episode that we could in the one hour. And fortunately Universal home video has agreed to show the longer version of Pegasus in the season 2 DVD set. So there's something for all of you to look forward to...

You can tell that the pace of the show is just relentless. We're just being brutal with these scenes, we're moving from scene to scene, in trying to give you the juice of each one. In some ways you can argue it makes for a tighter, more compelling drama, but my feeling of the longer version was, it was a richer meal, you got more textures, more flavors, a greater sense of the complexity of some of the relationships. You saw more of the consequences or ramifications of the Pegasus showing up, how it affected more characters lives. And that's really why I was attached to the longer version.

--

Sheba was a character that is not present in this version of the show. I felt that Sheba ultimately was too cute of a character concept, that you'd run into another Battlestar, and that Commander also would have a child as the commander of his air group. I just felt it was one step too far. It pushed the reality of the show across the line, where essentially the show is kind of winking at the audience and going, "They did it, so we're going to do it too." It's kind of cute, isn't it? It worked for the original series... it just didn't feel it would work very well in our episode.

--

I had worked with Michelle Forbes on Star Trek: The Next Generation where she played Ensign Ro, and other people knew her from her film work. There was something really interesting about going with not an older woman, but a slightly younger woman, that she would personify this character... There was something I really liked about bringing in a younger fast-tracked admiral, who then comes in and takes command of the Galactica and the entire ragtag fleet. I should say that in the original "The Living Legend," Commander Cain did not outrank Adama. That story was similar only in so far as there is a Battlestar Pegasus, they do meet up with it unexpectedly, and that there's an Admiral Cain who is more of a hardass character than Commander Adama... I liked the kernel of that, that another battlestar comes on the scene, and the commander is a tougher one than ours is, and is a bit of a crazy person. On top of that, what I thought was even more interesting was then to say, what if that commander shows up they outrank Adama? What if that commander shows up and takes command of the fleet away from Adama, which would happen? And suddenly I realized, that was a more interesting tale.

--

There's a lot of things that did not make it into the one hour version of "Pegasus." There's a whole leadup to this scene with Adama and Laura and Tigh walking through the hallway. And that's where they talk about who Admiral Cain is. They talk about the fact that Cain was a very young admiral, had been promoted over several people on the commanders list, was sort of an up and comer, and a bit of a tough one, and that she had taken command of Battlestar Group 75 only recently before the attack.

--

We had varying storylines and drafts dealing with the interaction between Laura and Cain. In one of the drafts, Cain in this moment did not even address Laura as president, just that it's a pleasure. I kept playing a card where Cain never quite acknowledged Laura as the president. There was a scene at one point when Cain went over to talk to Laura because there was also a subplot where ships in the fleet holding back supplies and not delivering fuel etc. because they weren't getting spare parts, they weren't getting help when Pegasus is helping the Galactica after they arrive, and the civilian fleet's getting fed up and they go on strike. They're not going to deliver fuel supplies to Pegasus until they get some of their needs met, and Cain got very upset and goes to confront Laura. And in that scene, Laura goes, "Hey, what do you want? You're not helping these guys out." And Cain makes it very clear to Laura in that moment that she doesn't accept her as the president. This is a military operation and she'll take what she needs from these people if need be.

--

I'm glad we waited until the middle of the second season, because at this point, the show had matured to the point where I think we can do this episode. We've had enough happen within the show to these people. These characters have gone through enough things, that there's material to mine in this kind of an episode... Mike Rymer, when he read the script, said he loved the fact that Admiral Cain comes over here and everything she says is right. She should take command and these people have been screwing up... Her agenda is quite simple. Hit the Cylons, hit them hard, keep hitting them, do whatever it takes to accomplish that mission. And looking at the way Galactica has been run up until this point, she goes, "What the hell is this? This is ridiculous. This is no way to run a fleet." ... She doesn't say anything here that's out of line. She doesn't say anything that's wrong. Everything she says is logical. It's all based on his logs, and how can he argue with it? But you kind of hate her for bringing it up, because it's all family business. And then somebody comes in from the outside and says, "You people are screwed up." And you kind of flinch back from that kind of a naked appraisal and wish that it weren't so, but it is, and you have to deal with it.

--

What would happen, to put a story where Baltar comes across the tortured and gang-raped Six of his dreams, and be forced to deal with her? There was something so powerful about that idea, and it would speak to the heart of who the man is now, and what goes on his life, to then be confronted with another Six, and that this Six had gone through this horrific experience and wasn't the powerful, sexy woman that we've come to know and in this case had been reduced to this state, where she's lying virtually catatonic on the floor... I'm really fascinated with the idea of Baltar coming to look at the Cylons in a different way. To look at this particular Cylon in a very different way. That here's a real, flesh and blood woman, another version of the woman he knew on Caprica, and that he would have an enormous amount of sympathy for this version of Six. That this one had gone through an experience that made him want to reach out to her, which is something he had never wanted to do. He had always been the character who had held his emotions back, who never connected with a woman, who never gave himself to love or to care. Right from the beginning their relationship had been, he was a player and she was just another conquest that turned the tables on him. That as much as she wanted him to love her, he never could or would. There was something amazing about flipping that upside down, having him reach out emotionally, but only to the one who had been tortued and raped. And there was something twisted about that, and there was something true about that.

--

This character does have a name, by the way. While Number Six is how she's referred to in the scripts, this character is called Gina. Gina comes out of the fact that there are certain people out there in the fan community -- and I know who you are -- that refer to the show as GINO, "Galactica in Name Only." And there was something so funny about that. And I always get a kick out of people who would refer to the show as GINO. They couldn't even bring themselves to just call it Galactica. They had to really make up this other name, and it was GINO. I just decided that, let's call the tortured Six, Gina. But it's never actually spoken in the show.

--

There was some piece that talked about [U.N. ambassador] John Bolton's style or lack of style with his staff, and he mentions at some point, he made his staff come into his office and hold all the meetings standing up, because he wanted to get through the meetings rather quickly. And he found that if he made his staff stand during the entire meeteing, that they got through it much faster. That says so much about that man, and I thought it was a really interesting telling kind of bit of character, so I used it here, that Cain was that kind of person.

--

There was an additional scene where Tyrol is relieved of his deck. That Chief Laird is assigned to take over the hangar deck as the deck chief, and Tyrol is relieved and has to play second fiddle to Laird.

--

This whole sequence of Sharon being raped by Lieutenant Thorne was one of much controversy as you can imagine. On the page we wrote this the way it's essentially cut here in this version of the show where the rape is averted at the last minute. It was shot a different way, we shot the whole rape. We shot a very disturbing rape sequence of Thorne raping Sharon, and there was a version cut where the guys come in and it's happening as opposed to about to happen. And there was a lot of controversy back and forth, and ultimately we opted to go with this version, where they come in just as the rape is happening... This is a really dark scene, this is a dark storyline. Things happened on Pegasus that you don't want to know about, and suddenly they're happening on our ship. And I like the fact that Helo and Tyrol, in the episode that precedes this one, were literally at each other's throats for a moment, that they both come charging in when this horrific thing is happening with Sharon. And they get in there and they go at these guys, and then Thorne is killed. It wasn't intended to happen, none of them set out to do this, but it just happened in the moment, that he was killed accidentally. And that that would set off a chain of events.

--

That little beat you just saw with Cally and the female deck crew sort of walking out on the conversation as it gets more about the joy these guys from the Pegasus had in going and raping their Cylon prisoner was something that Mike Rymer came up with. It wasn't in the script but it was realy nice touch and it was a very smart move. That Cally etc.. walk out on these guys, because if these are co-ed ships and the notion that the women all stand around listening to them make jokes about the fact that they went in on this twisted gang rape of Gina, it didn't seem right that they would just stand around. That's great, the yee-hah. That kills me. The yee-hah that actor gives just makes you want to reach through the camera lens and kill him.

--

Adama launches the Vipers and says, "I'm getting my men back." And there's something really interesting aabout the fact that a man who's obeying the rules and doing the right thing, admiting his mistakes, there comes a point, right or wrong, he's not going to let her execute his men without a trial. He's just not going to do that. There are places where Adama will not go, and I love that in this moment she nails him on the tribunal thing. Last year during "Litmus" he dissolved a tribunal when he didn't like the answer and it hits him. It registers on the character in that moment. He knows that that too is true. And the fact that it's true doesn't mean that he doesn't feel the way he feels in this scene. And when he finds out a moment later that they've been sentenced to death, it felt right that Adama, a man who risked so many lives when Kara Thrace was down on that planet, that he would again do anything it took to save the men that were under his command, that his bond with them was that strong. And you could very logically argue that it's a profound mistake on his part, that it's a command flaw, but people have flaws and that's one of his blind spots. It's one of the places where Adama is not the ideal commander if you want to look at it that way. And in many other ways he's the most human commander of them all.

--

I like the idea that Baltar [is] sitting and really exposing himself emotionally and talking in very frank terms about the experience that he has had with Six and with Six on Caprica and what she means to him in a very real and profound way. And he would do it in this context and that it was just a monologue. I felt really comfortable writing a monologue for James because I knew that James would embrace it and would really sink his teeth into it and really make it sing.

[SACSlym]

i was wondering why that message came up, and then i realized fully what those drunk idiots were going on and on about... then i got angry, then angrier, then the pants went down and i was ready to see some asses get kicked...

[TheDeadlyShoe]

I thought the catatonic Number 6 looked like Rosalyn for a sec... :x

[Gyokuran]

I just saw it and all I can say is:

HOLY SHIT. I need part 2 NOW.

[A176]

son-of-a-god-damned-mid-season-cliff-hangers-arg

[Cheech Marin]

I'm really starting to like those toasters more and more now....

[Caesar]

A176 is right, you guys are all ruining the point of BSG. It doesn't matter how or why, it's a damned good show.

[Starfisher]

Plot holes are annoying, though. How did the Pegasus survive the uber death virus?

[Chrome]

I liked the contrast between the Pegasus and Galactica crews--one is this hard-boiled, nasty, by-the-regs, and generally egotistical crowd, while the Galactica crew is a woven-together family.

And I too wondered what the message was about...until I saw what the Pegasus crewmembers were talking about. I figured something like that was likely to have happened in such a situation, given what the Cylons did to the humans. It's the classic revenge urge.

But the minute you realize it's going to happen to Sharon...it's like the tables turned. Suddenly the imprisoned Cylons, as much as they're a security risk, seem to be far too vulnerable. And contrast this to when Kara had to get information out of Leoben early on?

But that was probably THE darkest scene I've seen in the series, to date, besides watching Caprica get nuked. I found it fitting that Thorne died instantly when Tyrol and Helo got into the fight. Very fitting...

And Cain, a woman....I wonder if she either allowed it, or if she doesn't know?

It's as if the Pegasus crew were the dark side of humanity while the Galactica one is more the light side...but not without their flaws too.

[Gyokuran]

Plot holes are annoying, though. How did the Pegasus survive the uber death virus?

Its explained in the Ron Moore podcast, the Pegasus had most of its computer systems shut down while they docked. To escape the cylons, they just basically fired up the jump drive and randomly jumped, they didn't calculate anything out. I guess they latter found out about the computer systems being compromised and took steps to prevent it.

[Mac_Bug]

Eveyrthing is according to the Cylon plan, so the correct answer is: Pegasus survives because they are part of it.

[SACSlym]

@ Deep Chrome
From what i can tell of Cain, it was probably her idea. Psycotic bitch


Mac Bug speaks the everlasting truth and answer to all questions regarding the plot.
THE MASTER PLAN, even though they were surprised that sharon was alive, oh wait, it was apart of their plan to confuse us, whoever us is, into thinking they were surprised. Damn their good.

[Mac_Bug]

All that really reveals is that the Cylons aren't like the Borg, and I do believe the whole goal is to actually bring in the question of who's really human

[SACSlym]

nah, i still think they were trying to fool us :)

[Gyokuran]

I was pretty obsessive about salvaging as many enemy ships as possible while playing though homeworld. That part of me makes me want to see the Pegasus survive for at least a couple more episodes (though the crew can go to hell). That part of me also is downright giddy at the fact that they have a fully operational Heavy Raider thanks to Starbuck's trip to Caprica, and another busted up one in the hanger to rip spare parts from. Heavy Raiders seemed to be nearly impervious to Galactica's flack guns and Apollo wasn't able to take one down very quick either. Factor in having a larger passenger capacity then the raptor and that sounds like a dang good way to get Helo and the Cheif off Pegasus.

[Moe]

DAMN YOU MID SEASON CLIFFHANGER THREE MONTHS ARGH DIE


/me arghles

[Dan Van Crone]

Why do you make me love you and then hurt me so, BSG? Why must you leave me alone for 3 months? :'(

[Reignfire]

Eveyrthing is according to the Cylon plan, so the correct answer is: Pegasus survives because they are part of it.
People give the Cylons too much credit. What ever their plan is, it had nothing to do with the Fleet until Sharon joined them. From the Mini-Series:
DORAL: We have to get out of this storm. The radiation... affects our silica relays.

LEOBEN #2: Where did they go?

DORAL: I... don't know... they were preparing for a... big Jump...

DORAL #2: We can't let them go.

NUMBER SIX #2: Unfortunately I agree.

NUMBER SIX #3: If we don't they'll return one day and seek revenge.

LEOBEN #3: It's in their nature. It may take several decades to track them down.

SHARON #2: Don't worry. We'll find them.

[Mac_Bug]

Yes, ignoring the fact that the cylons could've squashed the fleet anytime now in the past 2 seasons

[Inst]

First, while Baltar could have been Holodecked, why isn't Six a hologram? The entire Temple of Athena could have been in Baltar's head.

Also, it's possible that Baltar is a Cylon, but it's more artistic that he's not. Cylons are relatively boring due to their inhumanity. They don't behave like real people, at any time, you can have them run a "HIJACK SUBROUTINE" that completely shuts off all humanlike traits and gives you a ruthless killing machine. And allowing force of will to shutdown such a thing would be so cliche and weaklegged.

Cain is fucked up. I'm losing my taste for BSG, given how one dimensional Cain seems to be. It would have been better if they had tinged Cain's ruthlessness with madness, with sublimated rage and an urge to "eat cylon livers"(reference to extreme hatred that validates cannibalistic tendencies). Right now, she's just portrayed as queen bitch, and even though they're going to kill her off or marginalize her power soon, there must appear the roots of her psychology.

Pegasus is pretty fun, because the difference between Pegasus and Galactica is the difference between Fourth Generation and Fifth Generation fighters. Galactica is already obsolete, and when you see Pegasus, Pegasus has tons of new equipment, more advanced briefing rooms. Their uniforms are snazzier, and they seem to have more advanced marine armor. Looking at realistic high tech stuff is always fun, you can play the game of trying to derive their use and properties from their employment on the show.

[Mac_Bug]

Has anyone noticed that BSG premiss is some what similar to Robotech (Macross)?

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Explain...?

[Gyokuran]

Granted I'm not super familiar with Robotech/Macross, I don't see the connection either.

[Mac_Bug]

Um, the last survivors of the human race, a battleship/city being chased through space, and the only reason they live is because the SDF is not to be destroyed?

[SACSlym]

funny, that also reminds me of a show in the 70's, it had a robot dog and a kid who never shut up.

[Mac_Bug]

Next episode Odama will use music to kill the Cylons

[A176]

it is clear mac knows much of the plan.

yes, he does know much.

of the plan.

indeed.

agreed.

[Atreides]

Who's Odama?

Thank everything scifi-ish that they did not have that stupid dog.

[SACSlym]

plus the kid never did anything, they introduced him and just went on with the show. I laughed hard that day :lol:

[DukeOfChaos]

If you watch the deleted scenes for 33 they had him in a lot of them. Then they decided that he wasnt essential to the story, thank god. I hated Boxey.

[Reignfire]

But just think, Sharon and the Chief could build him a Daggit :lol:

[theBlind]

So if you were standing there with a gun when that child is born you would have no qualms shooting both her and her mother?
Yeah, I would be able to shoot something that had just killed all my friends and family, and had already shot the man who had kept me alive so far.
I'd say that there are enough people who'd kill/torture another human if he/she was part of a group that did something even less atrocious. In fact it's happening just now in too many places on this planet alone.


I could see that except at the beginning of the Mini-Series they explain that no one has seen any signs of the Cylons in over 40 years. I don't remember if in the museum section of Galactica there is a model of the old Raiders or not, but I'd imagine they would look like the ones from the original series (just like with the Centurion and Basestar).
That officer in the mini-series beginning is looking through data-files showing the old (ie 1970) versions of Raiders and Centurions, so it seems those are now considered to be old, outdated models of the last Cylon war. Interestingly, that means that Galactica has actually fought against those models.


Plot holes are annoying, though. How did the Pegasus survive the uber death virus?
By running away. Blind jumping away according to Cain, but Adama does not really seem to believe her and I'm somewhat in doubt as well. Maybe they deserted their post and fled?

I was pretty obsessive about salvaging as many enemy ships as possible while playing though homeworld. That part of me makes me want to see the Pegasus survive for at least a couple more episodes (though the crew can go to hell).
They hardly have enough crew to man Galactica (as she was in the process of decomissioning), they can't man another Battlestar even if they wanted to. They could switch ships, thoug or mothball Pegasus for later use.

If you watch the deleted scenes for 33 they had him in a lot of them. Then they decided that he wasnt essential to the story, thank god. I hated Boxey.
And praise to the lord of Kobol for that!

DAMN YOU MID SEASON CLIFFHANGER THREE MONTHS ARGH DIE
I guess I wasn't the only one sitting in front of my screen yelling "Nooooooo!", right?

[Progenitor]

is this omnislashing if i could remember right?

anyway, sharon seems to be able to wipe out the entire cylon fighter group with a single virus, why doesn't the galactica use her as a weapon instead of killing her or thinking of other ways to make her pay for her cylon brethen's acts.

[theBlind]

is this omnislashing if i could remember right?
Since I'm
a) not slashing anything and
b) quoting from all over the tread
I'd answer that with a definite "Nope".

anyway, sharon seems to be able to wipe out the entire cylon fighter group with a single virus, why doesn't the galactica use her as a weapon instead of killing her or thinking of other ways to make her pay for her cylon brethen's acts.
I'd say that this worked once because the enemy was unprepared. Actually, I'm quiet sure that this will not be exploited any further simply because it would make those spacefights really boring.
It'll be interesting enough how the producers will work their way around that plothole. I guess I'd have preferred to have Sharon simply eliminate the cylon virus.

[ionfish]

theBlind, stop overusing the quote feature. It's there to add one or two relevant quotes when you actually need to quote someone directly, not when you simply need to reply to a point. Consider that I am entirely able to discuss your quoting habits without actually quoting your post.

I suggest that you read the rules (http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=5710) more closely, specifically the part that says "Do not overuse the quote feature - if quotes take up more room in your post than what you are adding to the thread, rethink your post."

[TheDeadlyShoe]

The Cylon spies in the fleet will have alerted the Cylons about Sharons turnaround on the virus. Undoubtedly the Cylons have measures to inoculate themselves against the virus, they just wern't employing them.

[Stripe7]

The Cylons do not care about individuals, they are more akin to a hive. Each model of cylon shares one collective mind. The loss of those Cylon raiders is akin to us losing a little blood and tissue. Sharon's apparently hitting the cylons ships with the virus could be a ruse to earn the Colonials trust. Ie it could all be a setup. They Cylons can wipe out the Colonial fleet at any time. They have other objectives in mind.

[Gyokuran]

I'm not so sure on the collective mind thing as far as the humanoid cylons go. The Galactica Boomer and the Caprica Boomer seem to consider them selves different people. How much intelligence do you think the robotic ones and the raiders have? I'd think they'd just be single minded killing machines, but I dont think single minded killing machines would rebel.

[Stripe7]

They share their memories, any one Boomer/Sharon remembers what all the other ones remember. That is a hive mind.

[Progenitor]

hive mind according to their copy. for example, not all cylons know what the boomers are thinking about or remember. only the boomer copy production line.

[Gyokuran]

To me a hive mind means sharing a single consciousness, even if they share memories so far I haven't seen anything that suggests that they're all being controlled by the same mind. The 6 in Baltar's head (Though its debatable if she's really a Cylon) acts surprised when it finds out that the Cylon prisoner on board Pegasus is a 6 model. Both Leoben and 6 say that if they die, they will reawaken with a new body elsewhere. When the Leoben model on Ragnar station is killed, it comes into question if he can transmit his consciousness back, or if the radiation would interfere with it. When the Leoben model on the Gemenon Traveller is killed, it calls into question if he was able to be sent back due to distance from the Cylon fleet. The Cylons also had to use up 2 raiders to relay the reporter Cylon's news video. While Leoben might have been planting disinformation like he often does, the colonials never suspected the real mission behind the 2 raiders. If they did have a hive mind system, they would not have needed the raiders to relay a video unless they've now come up with yet another ingenious plan to trick us the nonexistent TV viewers. Boomer also at one point says something along the lines of "No it doesn't work like that, I'm not just constantly jacked in".

Everything I've seen suggests that each Cylon model acts independently from the others of the same model. I think they consciously choose to send memories to others of the same model though some currently unexplained method. They've told the colonials that if they die, their consciousness is uploaded to a (I'd assume 'blank') copy of their model. They have very rarely shown any fear of death and the doctor Cylon says something like "You can't kill me", because of this I would guess they at least believe this is true (and are likely capable of doing it).

[theBlind]

My guess why they don't destroy the fleet is twofold - first there is a chance to scatter the fleet during an attack, especially if the rally point Galactica is removed.
That may then account for the "decades" necessary to hunt the remaining survivors down that was mentioned in the mini-series.
More importantly, I think that the cylons use the fleet to lure them to earth.
This is pretty much proven from what Cain sais in Pegasus - she states that Pegasus was following a Cylon fleet which, as it turns out from Galacticas nav logs, is shadowing the survivors. Combine that with the fact that they were able to jump in two raiders in Final Cut just when they needed them (so the Cylons know where the fleet is at all times) and I don't think any other explanation fits that well.


As to the human-cylon models independence, there's the interesting question of their chain of command. Are the hybrids higher up or the centurions? IIRC 6 mentiones that the cycle of playing creator and being destroyed by ones own creation repeats itself - to date, that could mean the lords of kobol create humanity, those create the cylons and those create the human hybrids. Will the hybrids rebel? Are they under the control (how tight?) of the centurions? Maybe they act more or less independatly but lack control ove their reproduction?

[Stripe7]

The cylons do not care about individuals, they work like a hive. Specialized units for specialized tasks. Ant hive, bee hive whatever.. The question is what the sync up point is for the models. When Fleet Boomer died, its memories were not transferred to Caprica Boomer, since she said she was unaware until told that fleet Boomer was dead, but Caprica Boomer has some of the memories of Fleet Boomer. Both Boomers were alive at the same time so the memory transfers take place even before the death of the individuals and after their "births". Baltar's #6 was unaware of the capture and torture of the pegasus unit of #6, was it because the Cylon overmind decided it was too damaging to let that knowledge be passed back to the rest of the #6 models or that some kind of sync up that requires physical presence is required?

[SACSlym]

ugh, withdrawal is tough, i keep getting excited everytime friday rolls around and then realize half way through the day theres nothing to look forward too :(, well except a good nights sleep :D

[Pmon1]

Sharon had an epiphany during the episode "Flesh and Bone". Sharon has many flashbacks when she is running through the forest she reliezes that she loves Helo so much she will abandon her mission completely. She disconnects herself from the Cylons so they can't track her that is why the Clyons go crazy tracking them all over the planet. They lost contact with Sharon until the Lucy Lawless was able to get the footage of her and her baby.
The Cylons need Sharon alive thats why they sent that fleet to rescue her and implanted the virus so they could power down the Galactica and have Sharon escape through a raptor, but she refuses knowing she loves Helo too much to go back to the Cylons.

Galactica's crew still loves Sharon even though she did the terroist actions, because she has to fight the Cylon inside her and its like fighting yourself everyday its not her fault she is a Cylon.

[The5thElephant]

Pmon1 - It is also very possible the entire thing is a very clever ruse by the Cylons to get certain humans very comfortable with certain cylons aiming towards some evil ends.

I agree with you though, but you don't know that she is really fighting herself and that it isn't all just an act.