Force Commander and Librarian weapons...

[Sgt Tyr]

Hi everyone. I considered putting this in the mod section, but seeing as how it's just speculation at this point I doubt it's post worthy for that section.

I'm really not digging the whole power sword look, especially when they were previously using a daemon hammer and force staff. It just looks like a generic downgrade IMO. So basically, I'm wondering if it's possible to restore the origional signature weapons and animations through some sort of mod or basic manipulation of the .lua files. I'm not talking about changing the actual data of the weapons after upgrades and such, just the animations and weapons. If this is done, I can see how there would be complications with playing online as well, but it would be nice if that can be avoided. I can say though that I'm really interested in finding out if this is possible and would be more than happy to help make this possible if I can. It sure would be better than having to go back to pre 1.41 hotfix playing.

Since the fellas at Relic and THQ have always maintained that they value the input of the community, I thought I'd also add a poll to see what the overall feeling of the weapons change is.

Anyway, thanks for any useful input in advance. :thumb:

[Kjon]

I don't like the change. I would like to see the signature weapons back.

Power swords textures look... odd

and i prefer Daemon hammer and Force Staff anyway

[Penitent]

With WA they clearly felt no need to make any sense in regards to the background. If they have to be upgraded with anything, they should start with the power swords and upgrade to their special weapons rather than vice versa.

[davisbe]

Same as penitent. I think they should start with power swords & upgrade to their signature weapons. I know it can be done, even I could probably MOD it, but the problem is that not everyone would have the mod, so MP wouldn't work too well!
I'll see what I can do, but I'm a loner (SP & Skirmish, no MP for me) so keep in mind that I'm not too horribly concerned with the MP aspect. I'll post under the Adeptus Modificatus forums as "Librarian Power Sword MOD" unless someone beats me to it (I'll shed no tears!), okay?

[Shinnoki]

i like the change

[theBlind]

Start with powerswords, upgrade to (stronger?) signature weapons.

[telstra4men]

Either put it how it used to be, or make it so you upgrade to a signature weapon, Most TT folks would agree that its kinda going barkwards...

[Skyhawk]

Personally, I like the change. I always considered the Daemonhammer pretty funny to see continuing in WA as it is simply a weapon Gabriel picks up in the campaign in DoW. The hammer is hardly a common weapon for a Force Commander and the power sword suits much better (which is indeed what Gabriel had for most of the DoW campaign).

The Librarian I don't mind either, considering most force weapons on Librarian models are swords, albeit force swords, but swords none-the-less. Basically from a fluff point of view it doesn't bother me at all as the staff and hammer are hardly 'signature' weapons.

[Aron_DeTomado]

What Penitent said.

[hangar-8]

Other: http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/5192/hero0jn.th.jpg (http://img291.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hero0jn.jpg) http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/3781/powersword13gp.th.jpg (http://img211.imageshack.us/my.php?image=powersword13gp.jpg)

Although to me it makes more sense to me that the Librarian KEEP his powerstaff, as it's as much a badge of office as it is a weapon. A Force Commander, well he can choose can't he? Perhaps the sword is an heirloom/gifted by the chapter master/waay better than the hammer? ;)

Edit: To answer Sgt Tyr: It should be simple enough. My guess is it would be as easy as swopping the reference to which weapons to use after an upgrade, as the animations are the same. With luck, if that's all you do, it might even be compatible with online play. Many cosmetic changes don't affect online play at all (WTP/pattern files, removal of the bionics upgrade icons on SM shoulders etc.).

[havoc]

Start with powerswords, upgrade to (stronger?) signature weapons.
The same.

[fletchtar]

^^

Agreed. I actually like the power sword on the Force Commander, but it doesn't make sense that he "upgrades" from the Daemonhunter, as that is stronger in fluff. I dont see why the librarian would have the sword either, I've always liked his staff's look.

[NathrakH]

it would be ideal if they looked the same and took on new attributes after the upgrade.

why else put the time into making specialized graphics for the hammer and force staff if you're going to get rid of it as soon as possible.

after the upgrade goes in just change the stats - not the look of the weapon - they took it to the armory and got some new parts or something :p

[Unknown Sniper]

I'm impartial really, though I like it how it is. Force Commanders have a huge variety of weapons - some wield chainswords, powerswords, lightning claws, power fists, daemon weapons, thunder hammers, etc. Similar with Librarians - a Force Weapon is a Force Weapon, whether it's a staff, sword, axe, hammer, etc. The only reason I want them kept how they are is due to:

1) Let's not start demanding stuff from Relic immedietly after a patch/hotfix (choose whatever terminology suits you :)).
2) The way the Force Comander held the hammer really grated on my nerves - he looked like he was about to fall over as the hammer unbalanced him! I always expected him to fall flat on his face due to holding the hammer right at the end of the handle. If they held it 2-handed like a glaive, or even nearer the middle, that would be good.

But, for now I like the power swords. Besides, who's to say that the sword isn't a relic from deep in the chapter's history, maybe blessed and weilded by the Primarch himself once!

Besides, with the power sword the Force Commander looks a lot more like my TT Force Commander for my Salamanders, and so that makes me happy and in favour of the Power Sword :D.

-Unknown Sniper-

[Mirage Knight]

I'd like to see the Librarian and Force Commander start out with Power Swords and then recieve their signature weapons through an upgrade.

Relic's got this real mania with Power Swords as of late...I'm surprised the Chappy doesn't get his Crozius Arcanum exchanged for one as well :rolleyes:

[Crystalking52]

I agree with penitent as well, start all SM heroes off with Power Swords, make the power sword upgrade not only upgrade sergeants with power swords, but upgrade the heroes power swords too, then make the power fists upgrade give em their signature weapons.

[Unknown Sniper]

I agree with penitent as well, start all SM heroes off with Power Swords, make the power sword upgrade not only upgrade sergeants with power swords, but upgrade the heroes power swords too, then make the power fists upgrade give em their signature weapons.

Nice idea - that way people can use what they like, the 'special' weapons or the power swords :) :beer:

-Unknown Sniper-

[the_hunger]

If they have to be upgraded with anything, they should start with the power swords and upgrade to their special weapons rather than vice versa.
It doesn't really matter to me one way or the other as long as the damage is not reduced by the upgrade. However, it would make more sense to move from power swords to the special weapons.

[Crystalking52]

Someone told me they DO get downgraded damage-wise when "upgraded" to power swords, so I've stopped researching that upgrade while playing as SM (note: I dunno if what he said was true, but I take no chances...)

[vecctor]

In 1.4 it was a downgrade to get upgraded CC and Plasma pistols. They fixed this is 1.41.

[Aron_DeTomado]

Yes and no. Damage is increased in against most armour types except vehicle_high (IIRC), the FC also loses his stun, appearantly.

[darkelf]

I agree with Penitent (as most of you obviously do).
Modding this should take no more than 1 or 2 minutes, just locate and remove the lines saying that the FC/librarian gets powerswords from the lua. (not compatible with online play) Once the new tools and\or luas are released I might do this myself.

[davisbe]

I won't go into more detail, since then it would belong in the Adeptus MOdificatus forum, but the main culprit is
"\WXP\Data\Attrib\Research\marine_sergeant_melee_upgrade_1.rgd" contains the upgrades to power swords, while
"\WXP\Data\Attrib\Research\marine_sergeant_melee_upgrade_2.rgd" simply ups the min/max damage on the FC's power sword. I made a quick & dirty mod where I swapped the weapon damage & armour piercing values, so you get the weaker power swords first (FC & Librarian only), then the first sergeant upgrade gives the signature weapons, as well as upgrading the Chaplain's CA's damage, the second upgrade does the same as before (ups the FC's damage). Anyways, I'll announce it in the Mod forum listed above, for anyone interested. :loser:
Please save questions/remarks for the mod forum!!!!!!!!!

[Uber Jedi]

I liked the idea of playing golf with enemy soldiers.

[darkelf]

THAT is fun, there's a couple of "golfing" or "home run" pics in the über screenshots thread.

[Compeador]

With WA they clearly felt no need to make any sense in regards to the background. If they have to be upgraded with anything, they should start with the power swords and upgrade to their special weapons rather than vice versa.
Exactly.

[Gabriel Angelos]

I prefer the hammer and the power staff.

[Frog_man]

Give us the option to choose what we want in the options section?

[sgb]

As most people have said, weapon changes should happen in the reverse order. Personally, I don't care too much though. FC looks fine with either weapon, but the Librarian does look better with the staff. Just let the FC keep his stun with the sword and it's all good really. As long as the damage improves. The damage against vehicle high rarely matters anyway. How often do you cc Kans with the FC? And Frog, that's being a bit greedy for such a minor feature no?

[Gabriel Angelos]

NO, the Force comander should start with a sword and get a hammer., and so the librarian.

[Methuselath]

Signature weapon as upgrade? Me likey....

[Guardsmen]

I think that power swords are the right standard weapon..... But the Librarian should defo be able to get a force weapon later on.
Force commander really should have the Daemon hammer as an upgrade, say gives him uber power vs the prince or something

[BeserkWraithlor]

I have an idea! Why can't you get an option to switch weapons? Powersword should be faster and more effective vs. some armor types. Daemonhammer is slower but more effective vs. daemons and stuff. So you can switch weapons!

[caster316]

Off topic: hangar-8 could you post a link to download your Librarian sword re-skin?

[davisbe]

Hey guys, I sent in my mini-mod to DoWFiles, so watch for it there. I will post on Adeptus Modificatus when it is available.
Merry Christmas! :santa:

[Hirmetrium]

i personally think they should sort out the values and animations first... THEN we can worry about looks and placements.

[Hello_Moto]

IMO, FC starts with chainsword.

@ TIER 2: build sacred artifact and purchase Commander Upgrade 1. FC now has inceased health/attack stats as per usual. weapon upgraded from chainsword to power sword.

@ TIER 3: purchase Commander Upgrade 2. increased stats as normal and weapon upgraded from force sword to daemonhammer.

with regard to the Librarian, he keeps his power sword (even after upgrade 1) and gets his signature force staff at T3 when upgrade 2 has been purchased. i think this system fits in nicely with the whole upgrade of health/attack stats....increased stats necessitates the use of more powerful weaponry.

[hangar-8]

@ caster316: http://forums.relicnews.com/showpost.php?p=1246019&postcount=1533

[Exigo]

I want the sig. weapons back. Except the FC can start out with a sword then upgrade to a Daemon hammer .

[Adonis]

I think this whole situation seriously missed the point of the significance of the weapons, which has upset quite a few of us. Here's my take on it:

The Power Sword is a great weapon, and should be what the commander units start out with. The sword has represented itself with many cultures around the world as a sign of courage, authority, and responsibility. Whether it is used to liberate and protect or to oppress and destroy is another matter.

The Daemon Hammer is a weapon that adds to the force commander's already great strength and even greater responsibilty of command. Anyone who's played Dawn of War in campaign mode knows how Captain Angelos is amazed how Iquisitor Toth grants him possession of the Daemon Hammer to defeat the enemy. Since I'm not very familiar with the WH40K universe, I assume that this is a great honor for a space marine captain. Either way, this should be the upgrade weapon for the FC.

The Librarian's Staff is also relevant with cultures around the world when it comes to representing a person with great "powers", knowledge, and/or seniority. To me, he does look cool with the sword. But don't take away his staff. It make it seem like he's been demoted down to a librarian of lesser responsibility, if there is such a thing.

Since the only change to the Chaplain is the ability to upgrade to a plasma pistol (welcome change), I'd say leave him be. No sense in fixing him if he's not broken.

[Unknown Sniper]

I have an idea! Why can't you get an option to switch weapons? Powersword should be faster and more effective vs. some armor types. Daemonhammer is slower but more effective vs. daemons and stuff. So you can switch weapons!

Perfect! Only one flaw - what would they start with? A chainsword seems too ignoble. Maybe they start with a powersword each, then a totally seperate upgrade gives them their signature weapons.:)

-Unknown Sniper- :sniper:

[the_hunger]

@Adonis: I think that you are more or less in agreement with everyone else, but I appreciate and agree with your explanation of the cultural significance and political symbolism of the special weapons.

[Adonis]

@The Hunger: Yes sir! Very much agree with everyone else. Guess I should have made that a little more obvious. But that's just me talking like I'm writing another paper for college LOL.

BTW, I downloaded your map. It's pretty cool!

[zIBiT]

Librarian with Power Sword - idiotism!!! Give'm some staff...but no power weapon...

[LoRd KoRn]

In WH40k the staff is technically a power weapon. Howevery, the staff is the unique weapon of a Librarian (you wont see a Force Commander with it), that also stands for what he is. Ofcourse you can equip a Librarian with a power sword but thats like dressing a football player in a ballet dress, its just not right. I would also go with the inverse upgrade version (first swords, powersword upgrade giving them their unique weapons). Unless relic doesnt fix the power fist it would be not too good to give them their real weapons with this upgrade since its a downgrade.

[King_Tiger]

If you go to the Adeptus Modificatus forum, someone's actually made a fix for this problem.

FC and Lib start with power swords (using the stats for normal WA 1.41 Hammer and Staff), then they upgrade to Staff and Hammer (using 1.41 stats for power sword), then the sergeants power fist upgrade boots the power a bit more.

Might help all you guys in here from being upset :music:

[Adonis]

Sounds good! I'll have a look!

Edit: Ah, found the link! Going to test it now!

http://files.filefront.com/Librarian_PSzip/;4387731;;/fileinfo.html

Edit2: It's just a mod. Not a fix.

[CommisarYarrick]

I want my signature weapons back. Don't see CL and CS running around with power swords do we?

Fluff shmuff, I want daemon hammer dammit!

[Skyhawk]

Well, I don't care too much about this and of course Fluff & DoW are not the same thing.

But honestly, the staff is force weapon (not a power weapon) and there are just as many librarians using force swords in the 40k universe as staves. They also use Force Axes I might add.

Power swords and Power fists should be the weapons of the Force Commander. The hammer is simply NOT a weapon used by many aside from the Daemonhunters. I think the commander should simply upgrade to whatever the sergeants are using, with different stats of course.

Perhaps Relic do care about the fluff a bit? afterall the only REAL signature weapon on the commanders is the Croxius Arcanum which is carried by the majority of Chaplains along with their Rosarius. They don't swap it for a powersword when you get the upgrade, by design I think.

[Unknown Sniper]

Well, I don't care too much about this and of course Fluff & DoW are not the same thing.

But honestly, the staff is force weapon (not a power weapon) and there are just as many librarians using force swords in the 40k universe as staves. They also use Force Axes I might add.

Power swords and Power fists should be the weapons of the Force Commander. The hammer is simply NOT a weapon used by many aside from the Daemonhunters. I think the commander should simply upgrade to whatever the sergeants are using, with different stats of course.

Perhaps Relic do care about the fluff a bit? afterall the only REAL signature weapon on the commanders is the Croxius Arcanum which is carried by the majority of Chaplains along with their Rosarius. They don't swap it for a powersword when you get the upgrade, by design I think.

My opinion too. Force Commander = Thunder hammer, yes, Power sword, yes, Power fist, yes, lightning claw, yes, even chainsword, yes, but they rarely carry daemon weapons. That's up to the Daemonhunter's Battle Captains and Inquisitors. Similar with Librarians - they do have other weapons except staves - just look at the 40K models - many have Force swords and axes too. :)

-Unknown Sniper-

[Aron_DeTomado]

The reason that they generally don't utilise Daemon-Hammers id because they're rare, and better than the powersword. Just because it's not their usual weapon is no excuse for throwing it away in favour of one that's worse.

[Unknown Sniper]

The reason that they generally don't utilise Daemon-Hammers id because they're rare, and better than the powersword. Just because it's not their usual weapon is no excuse for throwing it away in favour of one that's worse.

Touché. :D Yeah, I know (TT freak, me!), but personaly, I'm in favour of a more "generic" force commander than a specialised, beloved-by-the-Inquisition type like Gabriel. :) Besides, does this mean because Terminator armour is better than power armour, all commanders should wear it? ;)

-Unknown Sniper- :sniper:

[Olgerth Istaarn]

Does Librarian's power sword work correctly now? It didn't used to work before - the staff showed up when he attacked...

BTW a Librarian's force weapon can be anything - it can be a staff or a sword or even a rapier (see Soul Drinkers novels) - doesn't really matter as long as the Librarian can use it to focus his power.

[Kushan]

I prefer the Daemon-Hammer. It looks better (i believe) and it doesn't make sense for the FC to throw away a daemon-hammer for a power sword, the daemon-hammer is more damaging and much rarer than some poxy power sword. Same goes for the Librarian, it makes him look too....ordinary.
Why do the FC and librarian throw away their sig weapons and replace them with power swords when the Chaplain, Chaos Lord and Chaos Sorcerer don't (yet have access to them)?

Nah, make them start with power swords and upgrade to Sig Weapons.

[AridMonk]

I dunno, i think it would be even cooler if you started with the power sword, then had the choice to boot it to a deamon hammer or even lightning claws at tier two.

This would mean he would have no shooting, but a boost in close combat, where he really counts.

:lol: that would rock.

[Adonis]

Damar Stiehl: I'm not sure I'd use a novel as a point of reference compared to the actual rule books. Writers tend to bend the rules or change certain elements to fluff up the story. I'm not saying this is the case, but I've seen this happen numerous times in other books (Star Wars novels, for example).

[Guardsmen]

weapon upgraded from chainsword to power sword.

I beleive this upgrade should be the same for Sargeants upgrade, maybe up the points a little, or like you stated, something similar, a seperate upgrade for that like 'Commanders power sword', or something along those lines.

lightning claws at tier two.

This would mean he would have no shooting

Hang on a minute.....
Doesn't the Imperial commander have lightning claws? Because he has a storm bolter..... And marines can get a storm bolter like that? Or would it look to unfluffy and stretching to far from 40k?
Guardsmen

[Andkat]

Wouldn't a Daemon Hammer and Force Staff have definite superiority fluff and game wise?
Power Sword: Destablises matter, allowing the user to easliy carve up his/her opponents (primarily armor penetration)
Daemon Hammer: I beleive it's a hammer that has been infused with the soul or the energies of a conquered daemon, resulting in extreme power and strength.
Force Staff: Channerls the physcic powers of the user into his attacks. Perfect for the super-pysker librarians.

[Olgerth Istaarn]

I'd say Soul Drinkers is one of the better WH40K series, so I'd trust it for reference. Plus, (haha) DoW is not Tabletop, neener neener neener.

And can someone answer my original question already? Please?

[Lazerguy]

Plus, (haha) DoW is not Tabletop, neener neener neener.

Thank you Admiral of the obvious. Its not necessary to drill "ITS NOT TT!!!1010101010" into people's heads just to satisfy your need for attention. DOW isn't TT, but it is WH40K.

You would do well to remember that.

[CommisarYarrick]

If I don't get my Daemon hammer and Force staff back, I wan to at least see Lightsabers.

Thats right, lightsabers for all commanders. No high ground though.

[Adonis]

Damar Steihl: I think you missed my point. I've never played the tabletop game, but I would imagine that in order to create DoW, alot of elements for the game where taken from the rulebooks to keep it WH40K as possible. I guess they could have gotten help from the novels, though.

As far as answering your question, I havn't noticed a problem with the Librarian's weapon changing while in battle. Are you saying that the 1.41 patch has caused this?

[Gabriel Angelos]

no, winter assault has.

[Olgerth Istaarn]

Thank you Admiral of the obvious. Its not necessary to drill "ITS NOT TT!!!1010101010" into people's heads just to satisfy your need for attention. DOW isn't TT, but it is WH40K.


*groan* For the benefit of the kids on the short bus: I was being an ass. "DoW is not TT" argument was used against me once too many times, and I was taking a perverse pleasure in using it against someone else for a change.

Adonis: actually it was GW representative's statement, I believe, and a while ago, that DoW was NOT intended to reflect tabletop at all, but rather was the derivation of the WH40K fluff universe. (A perverse derivation, I give you that, but still). Also, where in the rules does it say that the Force Weapon has to be in the shape of a staff? Do you have any backup for your statements quoted from the Space Marine Codex, or perhaps the rulebook?

Get your facts straight, then argue. Nevertheless, I thank you for your answer insofar the librarian weapon bug is concerned. Yes, prior to 1.4, switching the staff weapon to the sword resulted in the sword showing up while the librarian stood still or ran. When he swung the sword, you would see the staff.

[Lazerguy]

Believe me, I understand where your coming from.

[Adonis]

where in the rules does it say that the Force Weapon has to be in the shape of a staff?
I don't recall ever saying that? I stated my preference for the game and how, as everyone else, prefered that the Librarian to have the staff over the sword.

Do you have any backup for your statements quoted from the Space Marine Codex, or perhaps the rulebook?
The statements I made earlier are my views on what the weapons represent. They don't make any reference to the TT rules since I'm not familiar with the TT version.

Get your facts straight, then argue.
What arguement? Just having a conversation about the game. As far as I'm concerned, this discussion doesn't even warrant an arguement. But I am always up for a good conversation concerning DoW.

[havoc]

Start with powerswords, upgrade to (stronger?) signature weapons.
This was the best idea among this all.
We shall win this conversation People who belive in that.
It is the most logical change.
Relic wont turn back what they did.
But turning it around would do the trick. it is just little of coding.
Everybody would be happy.
You all would have your weapons back but a lil later.

[Lord Deamonator]

they are the main reson i kan kill orks

[Sgt Tyr]

Damn... these poll results are pretty conclusive. Thats a lotta votes as well.

Anyone from Relic or THQ interested in commenting on this?

[CrossOfFire]

Really, I kind of side with alot of you on this, I think that they really should be able to have their signature weapons starting out.

Also, I'd like to see them more modifiable, someone mentioned terminator armor, why not? When I saw that the Force Commander changed from Daemon Hammer to Power Sword, I thought that was interesting, but you can't modify them at all. I think this really goes against what Heroes are all about. I'd really like to see something like this.

You know how squad options have upgrades, and how dreadnaughts have upgrades, why not allow all heroes, but I'm just going to set up an FC example.

For example, allow,

Starting out: Bolt Pistol, Power Sword (Simple, Yes.)

2nd Tier Weapons: Power Fist option and Plasma Pistol

3rd Tier Weapons: Terminator Honors and maybe Daemon Hammer, possibly Storm Bolter as well, Possibly Allow them to be with Jet Packs, Not necessarily the FC, but the Librarian or Chaplain. I'd love to see the Chaplain with a Jet Pack.

His Powers will be researched as usual though.

Personnaly, I'd just love to see a Force Commander with a Storm Bolter, and a Power Fist if I could arrange that. Of Course there are many other options that they have in the TT, but this is just a bare template to give you an idea of what I'm looking for, When I look at an Army in the TT, You look at the Hero, the Commander. That is how you base your opinion on their army, usually. I've always felt that all heroes in DOW have been misrepresented, maybe this is an idea for a mod for someone, maybe not, I just thought I'd throw my hat in.

[Adonis]

Just in case anyone didn't know, davisbe has created a mod to have the FC and Librarian start out with power swords, then upgrade to their signature weapons (Thanks davisbe!). For those who are interested, here's the thread:

http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=79724

It can be activated from the game manager. But for me, personally, I found it easier to just drop it into the WXP folder. Not sure how this will work online.

[CrossOfFire]

I noticed that, but I was talking about my idea of Terminator Armor, Power Fists, etc, and the special abilities that accompany certain chapters possibly, anyway, it was just a thought.

[the_hunger]

This is somewhat on topic: How do you use more than one mod at a time? I currently just use the Terminator sergeants mod and would like to use this mod (Librarian power sword) with it. I've done a search of the forums, and the information I've found seems to make using more than one mod a bit of a pain to arrange. Is there an easy way to do it without having to do any coding?

Thanks in advance.

[Adonis]

the hunger: What you're talking about is called 'linking mods'. The way I do it, I just drop the mod into the main WXP folder. Before I do, I make sure that the files will not interfere with others and cause problems. Right now, I have the Army painter mod, Librarian power sword mod, the terminator sergeant mod, and scout sergeant mod going at once when I play (I just select the regular Winter Assault Campaign from the game manager to do this). I don't have to keep activating different mods and I havn't run into any problems. However, I don't know how this will affect you playing online, so just be aware of that.

Also, make sure you know where and how you put the files into your WXP or W40k folder. Otherwise, if you do run into problems, you're screwed because you can't remember which files may be causing the problem.