Imperium, Good Or Bad?

[Stealthlazer]

This is kinda hard to phrase but do you personally see the Imperium as the goodies or the baddies?

Do you go in for the 'noble, glory, honour, cleanse the galaxy from perfidy, etc, etc' or for the 'slaughter everyone including yourself and then pretend it's holy' view?

Personally I think the Imperium is evil. Maybe it's to much time reading Soul Drinker novels and a basic dislike for Space Marines *looks around....did I say that out loud?* but they've always seemed hypocritical. They seem to be saying thta we're the best and we want to kill you all!

Plus I think the Lords of Terra are lying and that the Emperor is now just a corpse.

So now to you guys. Do you go in for honour and glory or they're all hypocrites?

[Fith Knight]

They`re evil, alright.I think so.
And you say you dislike space marines....?
*Ugly look*

But partly, I view it as good.The Imperium is very large and diverse.

[Sir Guppy]

well im gonna bring the whole view point thing into this just because if i dont someone else will and these type of threads always end the same anyway.

from the imperiums point of view they are in a universe covered in deamons and alien flith, who are trying desperatly to destory the imperium, why shouldnt the imperium wage wars of genocide against those who are doing the same to them.

from anyone elses point of view the imperium is a stagnant beast waiting to die, where the population is oppressed and is generally an afront to everything anyone else believes in they are more evil than khorne himself - who lets face just wants to have a good time.

[lt_wentoncha]

Are you judging the morality of the Imperium? Perhaps, I suppose. All an Inquisitor has to do is judge a planet or system as heretical and can order and Exterminatus. To that end, I'm sure the soldiers of the Imperium commit horrendous attrocities that, in the name of the Emperor and mankind, are justified.

[Paladin]

I would have said evil back in the Rogue Trader days... but with all the new(er) fluff giving the Emperor a real backstory and everything... It's not so easy to say. If the Emperor were to awaken it would be pretty obviously good.

[Exetus]

Neither. It just IS. If you are human, the Empire is an oppressive regime, but at the very core of everything, is an attempt to make the galaxy a safe place for humanity to prosper. It has its evil sides and its good sides. This is shown in the piety of the Adeptus Sororitas and the dedication of the Space Marines. You have to think that to run an empire of a million worlds, you have to rule with an iron fist. If everyone isn't doing their part, then it won't work. You have to have enforcers to make sure that doesn't happen. At the same time, you HAVE to be a military-minded society with no room for insurrection because all it takes is a little nudge down the wrong path in the 40k universe and everything starts going to shit.

So when it comes down to it, I think that they are a bit extreme in everything that they do, but that's not enough to qualify them as being "evil". At the same time, because of the way that things are run and the darkness that envelops much of the leadership from simple human emotions and poor judgement, they cannot be viewed as "good".

[BillyBob]

I feel the emperor is just being held back, and that he;d be re-born if only left to die.
Anyway, did you say you don't liek the Soul Drinkers *daggers shooting from eyes*
I too hate the imperium, but they're so set in their ways, that any divergence from there incurs immediate death...
If the emperor did come back, I think he'd set things straight..

[DaRKNeZz_Ogre]

They're evil, but I play them anyway :-D But from reading fluff on the emporor himself, I think he would be displeased as to how things are going now.

[Bezerek]

They a deffinatly good..being that choas are the evil ones..

Choas plan to wipe out the whole of mankind how can that be good?
lol

[Technique13]

There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

i think the same can be said for all the races, there is no good, but there is degrees of badness, and the imperium is up there in the least badness with dark eldar, chaos in the very badness...

i think winter assault had a good way of putting it, Order and disorder

[Imrix]

In the world of 40k, there is no such thing as good. Only varying degrees of evil. The imperium is evil, as are the Eldar, Tyranids, Tau, Necrons, Orkz and everybody else.

Live with it.

[Fixer]

Evil is entirely a matter of perspective.

Is it evil to rule over mankind in such an oppressive manner? Or is it far more evil to grant the people of the Imperium more tolerance, which would inevitably end up in rogue pskyers and mutants tearing the heart out of mankind?

An overly benevolent leader can do more damage than the most energetic of tyrants.

This is the 41st millennium. If the goody goody diplomatic Federation of Star Trek was here, they would all be dead by now and their souls would be eternally tormented by demons of the warp.

[Question]

EVERYONE in WH40K is either bad or at best "neutral".

[Waterbizkit]

I've always felt that "evil" is a greatly overused term. While there are many games which try to put an objective spin on evil, real life unfortunately dictates that "evil" is a relative term.

In many games, evil is an objective term. That is to say that in games evil is often evil regardless of the observer. To be slightly more blunt: something is either evil, or it isn't. There are no shades of grey. This is not however how real life works, and I would go so far as to say that this is not how 40k works either.

In 40k, as in real life, evil is relative. That means that a person, a group, an act, or an object is viewed differently by different observers. Hence evil is relative because whether or not something is believed to be evil is relative to who is viewing it.

With this in mind it becomes hard to judge much of anything in the 40k universe in terms of good and evil, at least in my opinion, because we are going to subject that universe to our own views based on our own state of mind because of current day moral values. That is we exist in a world very far departed from that of 40k and thus we view it through our own experiences, not that of the fictitious peoples who dwell within the 40k universe.

I mean is chaos really evil? Or more specifically are the CSMs? When evil is a relative term I don't really think you can label them evil if you give it any real thought. Who are the chaos marines but marines who, from thier point of view, saw the emperor for who they thought he really was: a self-righteous man interested only in his own agendas. Is this a correct point of view? Maybe. In a relative universe you can't really say because a point of view is exactly that... a point of view. Simply because one point of view conflicts with another does not make it inherently evil, only different. In thier eyes the chaos marines are fighting a self-righteous empire that betrayed them, and is that truly wrong?

Are the orks truly evil? Can you call them evil simply because they make war on, well, anyone? If I am not mistaken was that not what they were created to do, make war? Can you condemn a race, or better phrased... a creation for doing what it was made to do? Is my toaster evil because it does what it was made to and so toasts bread? Or better still, is a gun evil because it has the ability to take life when used in such a way? I think not. Perhaps the orks are not inanimate objects, but for all intensive purposes they only do what they were made to do: wage never ending war.

Is the Imperium evil? It's violent in its persecution of any perceived heresy and it's xenophobic in the extreme. Does that make it evil? Perhaps, but as I have been droning on about it all has to do with perception. All of the examples have to do with perception... especially the perception on our part as the players and fans of the game. From our point of views, based on current day experiences, many would more than likely deem the Imperium evil based purely on the way it treats its own as well as others.... harshly in the extreme. Those that call it good more than likely try to view it using the objective idea of evil, calling the Imperium good simply because it fights to preserve the human race. Either that or some people are far too fond of the Imperiums rampant racism (please god see that for the joke it is).

Regardless of all of my ranting the point stands: I do not think anyone can truly label any race in the 40k universe truly evil, with the only possible exceptions being the dark eldar and necrons... though even then arguments could very well be made to the contrary.... because evil is a relative term and will change depending on who is considering the facts at hand.

~Bizkit

[Dante]

The Imperium does good for itself.

If this is evil to others, than so be it...

[darkoutcast]

You are completely right about evil being relative. I can even prove this by saying that the dark eldar aren't evil...they just have to be because stupid slaneesh is eating their souls.

[Stealthlazer]

Wow lot's of philosophers here.

I don't mean to say they can only be evil or good, there are shades of grey, merely do you think it achieves it's 'good' objectives?

All sides think they are right.

The Tau think they are right because of their co operation.
Orks see warfare as the be all and end all so there's nothing wrong.
The Dark Eldar are forced to do it to stave of Slaneesh.
Traitor Legions and other Chaos believe we can only survive through the power of Chaos.
The Eldar say they're doing it to survive.
The Necrons cannot think about it.
Imperium says that it's self protection.

I merely say think that their 'order' objective is at odds about the warfare they use.

[Unforgiven1977]

You should have made this thread a poll.
IMO the Imperium itself might be ruled by individuals who are corrupt and somewhat malevolent (meaning the high lords) and the imperial guard and inquisition are just their pawns. This is no doubt due to the Emperor being basically "asleep". The high lords issue orders in His name to further their own unscrupulous intentions.
The space marines generally have no part of this. They operate largely on their own and without direct guidance from the powers that be. Which often times goes against the wishes of the high lords. This is represented by how often times SM commanders are called for to stand trial and answer for their actions.
I think they generally stand for the "good" in humanity and everything that's noble, honorable and just. They are genetically breed with the Emperors ideals imprinted in their minds.
Maybe what's needed is another uprising within the assassinorum to clean house.

[chaudman]

To a degree all races all races are 'not good' and could be seen as evil.


The Imperium just stinks of evil to me just the way it works. One religon, One almighty leader it such a dictatorship. Also many say if the emporer came back he'd set it straight but according to some of the fluff the emporer was extreamly intolarate of other races and wanted to purge them all.

The tau would seem to be the 'good' army but theres something extreamly Sinister about the etheral tight grip over the tau.

The orks kill for fun, althouth evil may not sound right there definatly could be described as bad or wrong.

The eldar will let 1000 humans die to save 1 eldar, that somes it up in one sentance.

All other races can quite easily be called evil

[treeboy]

The thing you have to remember is that its every race for itself (except for the Tau of course) and that no race is willing to tolerate another living in the same galaxy, its like asking capitalism and communism to work together nicely, they just cannot trust each other enough to try and get on...and some of them don’t even want to get along.

Humans - they do every thing necessary to keep good, honest humans safe. This is good.

Eldar - there are very few of them left and so they must do every thing they can to save themselves, so 1 million humans for 1000 Eldar would be fine, a million humans is barley nothing to the Imperium.

Dark Eldar - yet again they are trying to keep themselves safe in the way they feel is best. There is nothing wrong with that

Orks - you cant accuse some thing of being evil by its nature
Tyranids - yet again, they are nothing but creatures and you cannot expect more of them then what they do.

Chaos - definitely evil, while they feel they have been betrayed they are not fighting to save anything, they are fighting to destroy and to avenge various things.

Tau - good, they are trying to unite the galaxy in peace so it can prosper and grow, nothing wrong with that (...although its completely stupid and will never happen [and I’m a Tau player!])

Necrons – a shade of grey here, they employed tactics to win a war and got caught up in a trap, now all they feel is jealousy of the other races which is evil but they kinda deserve to feel like that.

[Stealthlazer]

Hmm but the Tau seem to have been darkened slightly now? Fro ma discussion with one of the GW staff in my local shop, he hinted that some of the new races for the Tau have been 'mind controllled' rather than voluntarily joining the Empire.

[Invictus]

Hmm but the Tau seem to have been darkened slightly now? Fro ma discussion with one of the GW staff in my local shop, he hinted that some of the new races for the Tau have been 'mind controllled' rather than voluntarily joining the Empire.

Sounds like BS to me (and that didn't stand for Big Shoota or Ballistic Skill :lol:)

And if it were true, GW probably wouldn't let it slip for at least another three years. As for the thread topic, all of the W40K races are neither good nor evil, they are just trying as best they can with their own situations or their very natures. They are only good or evil when compared to other races, which is relative. There is no set X = Good and Y = Bad formula for these things. It's the beauty of W40K, using your own interpretations of things.

And of course, there is the excessive amounts of bloodshed that keep us ravenous bloodsucking monsters always wanting more! :rofl:

[Fixer]

There ya go, Tau more evil than mankind.

They sneak around in the shadows, promising everyone a grand and glorious future and instead lobotomise other species to be their mindless slaves.

At least the Imperium is honest, they say they'll commit hideous genocide on your entire race, and by the Emperor, that's what they do :)

[Imrix]

Personally, I think everybody is evil or at least nuetral, though I have to confess a biased favourability on the side of the Eldar.

Every race has it's darker side, the Imperium will commit genocide on entire systems, simply because they don't know how far a cult has spread, and want to play it safe. The Orks will happily butcher the galaxy just because it's fun, the Necrons are... Well, they are the most meritless. They themselves cannot really be judged as they have no choice in the matter, but the C'tan DO have a choice. They can stick around and eat the universe, or they can go back to stars. They chose to eat the universe, a selfish choice for personal pleasure based entirely on their own wantas, which will cost billions of lives. On the flipside, they don't really no better, they have no experiance with the idea that other things might be truly sentient, and are somewhat like kids in a closed candy-store. They have no compunctions about killing, because they have had nothing to show them such a thing is wrong.

The Tyranids... Nothing is known of their motives (Or at least, I know nothing of them) so I reserve judgement.

The Dark Eldar, yes you need souls to survive, do you have to torture, maim and mutilate them while you're at it?

The Eldar, ever hear about Armageddon? They caused that.

The Tau, oh you want to unite the universe huh, do we get a choice? No? What sort of life do I get? Total subserviance. Frankly I say fuck you and the horse you rode in on asshole.

Yet, at the same time they do have their good sides, even Chaos, even if only in certain sections (Iron warriors for one, they DO have a legitamte case for vengeance, even if the manner of getting it is somewhat extreme).

No race in 40k is completely evil, yet neither are there any true "Good guys" or hero's, oh yes you get champions and such, but a champion is not necessarily a servant of rightiousness.

I can create a plausible argument for the good points for any race, even things as despicable as Deamons. 40k is if nothing else honest, and if you take your head out of your ass long enough to see it, shows a simple truth: Nothing is completely good or evil, especially since such things are relative.

[Stealthlazer]

Hey, I didn't say it was true, it's just what this guy said....

And yes, that is part of WH40k's appeal the lack of a hero side. Of course it's thta same thing that means it really will never reach the heights of popularity things like Harry Potter or LOTR do.

[Imrix]

Yeah, but on the flipside I have noticed a distinct lack of rabid 40k fans, you know the type who scream on the boards and such "OMG X BOOK/GAME/TV SHOW IS THE BEST ALL ELSE SUCKS YOU ARE TEH GAY FAGGOT ROFL!!!!111eleven!!eleven!"

In other words, we may not get the billions of fans LoTR or HP attracts, but at least most of ours have sense. And for that matter, a functioning brain.

I don't say they all do (Wherever you are George, I still hate you...) but a distinctly larger percentage than the other Big Franchises.

[Stealthlazer]

Well the cerebral needs to understand the game do weed out anyone idiotic. And of course that's another part of the attraction to the game. Stil sometimes I jsut wish they could make a Warhammer movie or something.

[chaudman]

I dont think its that unlikly that tau woud 'mind control' other races the etherals seem to do it to the tau. As I said the etherals are evil, evil I tell you. I think c'tan and the chaos gods are evil. They want to eat things and have everything serve them or kill every thing without a reason. The Necrons and CSM's are just there pawns. The Necrons have the power to toatly cripple 2-3 of the other races. If the void dragon is te machine spirt and it wakes up, bye bye imperium. Also if they close the warp they'll trap in all the poor CSM's. Abbadon: finnaly i have the perfet unstopable plan to kill the emporer, hay wait where did the eye of terror go? and it has ben discussd this could take out the nids aswell. Anything that can wipe without a war out 3 armies in 40K is evil, evil I tell you.

[darkoutcast]

The Dark Eldar, yes you need souls to survive, do you have to torture, maim and mutilate them while you're at it?

Yes they must, because if a soul is treated in that way it becomes richer, so it is like giving two souls for the price of one!

[Stealthlazer]

I can just about see that advertisement:

'Two souls for the price of one! Special offer from She Who Thirsts! Available in all good Chaos stores!'


Necrons are obviously EVIL. I think I can sympathise with Chaos though...

[Invictus]

You can justify them all, it's you opinions. Here's mine.

Good / Bad:

Imperium: Protecting humanity / Genocidal and oppressive
Chaos: Serving their Gods and wanting vengeance / Wanting to kill or enslave everyone and everything else
Orks: Obeying their thirst for war / Barbaric, stupid oafs with no sense
Eldar: Keeping their race alive / Manipulation of other races for their own (often miniscule) benefit
Dark Eldar: Keeping their race alive (albeit through different mean to standar Eldar) / Decadent "fallen" Eldar who torture for kicks
Tau: For the Greater Good (though I don't buy it totally) / Oppressive
Tyranids: Food to sustain themselves / Evil aliens that want to destroy everything
Necrons: Food to sustain their Gods / Soulless beings who harvest other faces for their Gods to feed on

It's relative as said before. Naturally, people's views are biased on this subject as everyone has their own opinions, but the fact that nearly every W40K player has a Space Marine army and that Games Workshop is pro-Imperial doesn't leave much hope for the other races.

[Stealthlazer]

Yeah, the endless pro-marines stuff is annoying. Sometimes i just feel like crying:

God they're just guys in antique armour who look like Frankenstein and have had just about the same amount of experimentation!

[dark_11]

there is no good in warhammer 40k just varying levels of evil

[Tiberius Nero]

From a modern point of view the Imperium is a xenophobic, militaristic theocracy; in the 40k universe it is supposedly the best political form for mankind's survival; there is no good or evil in the 40k universe, even chaos has a justified existence in the grand scale, and its servants have a role in the cosmic balance.

[Grognan]

There's really not "good" or "evil" in the 40k universe. Its better termed Order and Chaos. IoM, Eldar, and Tau are more Order aligned and Ork, Dark Eldar, Chaos Space Marines, Tyranid, and Necron are more of a Chaos or Disorder rather.

[Lazerguy]

If the Imperium of Man is an iron fist, then the Tau is a soft leather glove, with a knife in its hand.

Filthy xeno scum.

[hiddensmoke]

the imperium can be viewed as oppressive but are the only place where the human race will survive and thus can be viewed as at least good from a surviving standpoint. well if you want freedoms well to bad build yourself a time traveler and come back to good ol 2005 and then you can be happy.

p.s. is there a place on the net where i can get the new emporer fluff?

[Stealthlazer]

Not EXACTLY true. Humans can survive as the servants of Chaos. Indeed chaos might be the only thing strong wnough to save humanity.

[Vannaroth]

Well Tyranids cant be good or bad really, but they do kill endlessly just to live so theyre just a pest, i think we can come to the conclusion that Chaos ARE bad, Eldar are just intolerant, Tau are bloody annoying, Necrons seem to be just as unfriendly as everyone else and nobody cares about Dark Eldar.. I cant say I blame the Imperium for battling against everyone.

[hiddensmoke]

well humans wouldnt be exactly "human" under chaos rule they be warp thingies and mutants. you look at a choas space marine look at his big horns and tell me hes a human.