Potential for an Iron Hands codex?

[Yo-jim-bo]

Yes, yes I know, more Marines. But of all the significant chapters without codexes, I think this is the only one left that really needs one. The likes of the Salamanders and the Raven Guard can be accomadatied fairly easily by the traits system. But the Iron Hands are much more complex, and are individual enough to warrant their own codex, which pretty much writes itself anyway.

You've got the Iron-fathers, interesting characters who would act like a cross between a techmarine and a chappy.

You've got the fact that all the marines, save perhaps scouts, have bionics, which means even their tac squads would be unique, and veterans and ICs would probably have extensive (ie. better) bionics.

You've got their close ties with the admech, meaning better weaponry and a wider selection of it (eg. in tac squads), plus some unique toys not seen in any other chapter. Which could range from relativly simple things like bigger versions of existing weapons (Plasma ordanance maybe?) to more interesting stuff, possibly with similarities to necron gear (disruption fields?) for the conspiracy theorists to mull over.

You've got the whole "the flesh is weak" ethos, which easily lends itself to special rules ranging from the reverance of vehicles (ld. boost for those near a dread say) to the "Do not falter" aspect (less liely to fall back, but penalties for squads who do so) and their contempt for lesser organisations, which is everyone else including other marines.

And then you've got all sorts of other touches, such as the use of terminators only as squad leaders, the lack of mobilie troops and the lack of and reverance for dreadnoughts (possibly venerable only and tooled up to the max with admech kit?) Throw in a few new bits of wargear and troop types (uber servitors? New vehicle variants? ) and you've got a codex.

Not to mention that their fluff is pretty damn cool and worth expanding on, with interesting stuff like the aforementioned ties to the admech and their distrust of their own bodies. And Ferrus was one of the most badass of the primarchs.

Finally, from a wider point of view the introduction of a more shooty non-codex chapter to balance the three melee ones would be nice. Indeed, another shooty army of any kind would be a nice change of pace.

[FerociousBeast]

Someday, maybe. A decade or two from now.

[Warcrier]

As an Iron hands player I see what you mean, my army was clipped at the wings under the nw codex, and GW generalized a dozen or so really cool armies that were very characterful. They wont be making such acodex however, as it does not have eniugh differences and doesnt have a big enough market. Its a money thing to them. Perhaps in he future we might see a campaign book with them in it, perhaps with new rules. A day liek that I gladly wait for.

[Chake99]

An Iron Hands codex would be awesome. I admit I was thinking of collecting them until the new codex nerfed them, now...

Not so much.

They can still be ok I guess, six dreadnoughts and a Tech-Priest HQ are not exactly laughable, but they are no where as close to as unique as they were before.

[Waterbizkit]

It would be nice if near all of the major chapters recieved thier own codex, but here's my suspicion:

Any major chapter which is listed on page 45 of the new Codex: Space Marines, in the traits chapter of the book, will more than likely not be recieving thier own codex. This is my guess anyway. It seems a tad redundant for them to provide rules for these chapters under the traits system in the SM codex, but then release a codex devoted entirely to one of these chapters that adds to or changes those rules listed for the chapter in the SM codex.... if you see my meaning.

All the same, one can always hope.

~Bizkit

[FerociousBeast]

As an Iron hands player I see what you mean, my army was clipped at the wings under the nw codex, and GW generalized a dozen or so really cool armies that were very characterful. They wont be making such acodex however, as it does not have eniugh differences and doesnt have a big enough market. Its a money thing to them. Perhaps in he future we might see a campaign book with them in it, perhaps with new rules. A day liek that I gladly wait for.
Black Templars once had zero market appeal as well ...

All the Iron Hands need pretty much is some marketing attention by GW and a flood of kick ass stories and all of a sudden everyone will be rushing to start an Iron Hands army. The ball, as always, is firmly in GW's court.

[Warcrier]

Yea but BTs were such a different army, and yes they did have a huge market appeal, when they were first released. Besides, liek i mentioned, GW might release a campaign book with the Orn Hands in it, mybe soemtime in the future, hopefully the nearfuture, but its doubtful oin the next few years. The BTs started out in a Campaign book of sorts as I recall...

[nareik123]

termys as squad leaders is pointless. In the mixed armour rules, you termy sergerant will have a 3+ armour save due to the majority being 3+

[Scribble]

A nice and impossible option would be to have a codex with mini entries of the various big chapters, no reason you couldnt fit 4 more normal chapters in a single book....

[bloodthirster2]

ill bet in 6th edition, the iron hands will have a codex, right after the salamanders and angels encarmine

[nareik123]

aint that time travelling

[Yo-jim-bo]

termys as squad leaders is pointless. In the mixed armour rules, you termy sergerant will have a 3+ armour save due to the majority being 3+ Well that's the fluff. And there's plenty of ways to make it point-ful, from making the suits or accompanying weaponry cheaper for squad leaders to giving sarges in termie armour a ld. bonus to represent how much the Iron Hands venerate the suits and those who get to wear them.

[Chake99]

Or count them as independant characters whose movement must stay in cohesion with thier assigned squad.

[cfoley]

That would be a disadvantage as they could be singled out in combat.

[Sandwichwarrior]

well as the only member of the squad in termie armor they would stand out...

but the IC rule would protectthem from getting gunned down before reaching combat and at that point they have thier 2+ save to see em through the turn.

[Warcrier]

actually sandwich, the Vet SGT doesnt need the IC rule to keep him from getting gunned down, hes in a squad either way. Also you can not allocate to the vet Sgt in a unit, being an IC would both make him only able to fight if he was in base contact and he could only be hurt as well if he was in base contact. The IC rules are out there to help characters from being killed before they reach combat and when they do into combat they can only particiapte if they risk being hurt, this helps to balance their superioir abilities.

[nareik123]

that wont effect it. UNLESS less than half the squad hes ATTATCHED TO has of 3+, he has a save of 3+

It ruined my tactic of a scout sergeant with terminater armour

[Warcrier]

First off, if you gave a Scout Sgt terminator amr. it would remove the move throgh cover and infiltrate abilities. Its not a good idea.

secondly, people have to read, reread, amd then rereread the mixed armour rule. Say a tactical squad is being shot by necrons. This Tac squad is led by a termie. so 9 3+ and a 2+/5+ The 'cron player rolls to hit and hits just above average, about 15 times out of 20. he now goes to wound, wounding half the time, so rounding up to be generous 8 wounds. In this case you would take the saves on 3+. Now lets say that you lose 4, you rolled badly. Now in this same phase youre hit by 3 Heavy destroyers.
9 shots, 6 hits, 4 wounds, again all approx. you lose 2 more marines. now comes the scary stuff. you get hit with yet another 10 man squad that just teleported with the veil and the lord packing a Staff of light. Same as last time, the squad performs nominally and youve got 7-8 wounds from Gauss Rifles, and your taking approx 1-2 AP3 wounds from the Staff. You lose the 1-2 guys and no have to deal out th 8 saves.

Heres where the important facts come in.

You have a marine with a 3+, and a Termie Sgt with his 2+/5+*,
You have 8 wounds to take, you do not make 8 3+ saves, and loser the sgt to a reduced armour value.
First the 'cron player may pick a single model he wants you to save on, because he did enoguh wounds to wound everyone in the squad. He picks the regular troop if hes smart because hes more likely to die with his 3+ save and if he does then the othjer 7 hits go to the termie. however hes not that smart. Youre prob playing in a GW store and lets face it the kids at theses shops aint the brightest (since theyre new usually), they all need some help. You save the termie. so 7 wounds left. You now allocate, starting with the worst save and begin taking saves. one goes on the 3+ then one on the termie, and so forth, til you have 4 saves on the 3+ Marine in his power srmour, and 3 more saves at 2+.

This is how you allocate wounds from shooting. What people get mixed up is mixed toughness rules, where unless your allocatin directly, which is something you cant do usually, (especially to a Vet Sgt), then you use the worst majority in the squad, and the worst if its a tie.

i hope thois compicated exlplanation clears some things up....

(man, I tried to simplify it and I prob complicated it instead, damn!)

[nareik123]

I thank you Warcrier for that very usefull explanation, and yes i did understand it. Yes, thwe peopel in the GW aint the brightest so you are right badly. Were does it say in the rules that you can't infiltrate with termy armur.

[Chake99]

I'm pretty sure one could argue that the "move through cover" and the "infiltrate" belong to the scouts abilities and not their armour. Thus you could say that even if you gave the sergeant TDA they should be able to move through cover and infiltrate...

Unless there is a specific rule stating that units in termie cannot do either.

[nareik123]

Chake, thank you for agreeing with me

[Warcrier]

yea, while chake might agree with you, that doesnt make either of you right. In fact models in terminator armour may not use either ability. this has precedents to it. Look at the chaos codex, if you buy terminator armour you cant buy either abilites. you cant use most movement based upgrades when in terminator armour actually.

[Invictus]

An Iron Hand's Codex seems like an Imperial version of Iron Warrior rules. You've got Iron Priests/Warsmiths which are similar to Iron Fathers. They both have a tendency to replace flesh with bionics, and I could see Iron Hands getting an Earthshaker cannon mounted on a Rhino chassis for a new tank. A long-range siege tank, better than a Whirlwind and longer range than a Vindicator. Then you have that alliegance to Mars thing which could see all sorts of crazy weapons come out.

[cfoley]

Warcrier, while there may be precedent for not allowing infiltrators or "move through cover" with terminator armour, that does not make it the default. Precedent is useful in determining the intent of an ambiguous rule, not for pulling rules out of the air.

For the record, I don't think that terminator armour should be allowed either of these but unless there is a rule somewhere banning combinations like this then the rules allow these beardy configurations.

I have had a brief look in the Space Marine and Black Templars Codexes and also the rulebook and couldn't find any mention of incompatabilities. It is quite possible that I have missed something. In fact, I hope I have missed something as allowing terminators to move through cover when they can't even sweeping advance is clearly rediculous.

[Chake99]

I know. That is why it would be so fun :D

[cfoley]

Well, as long as your opponent has the same sense of fun as you then that's fine. Sometimes I like to pull beardy stunts wih my army. I always make sure this is OK with my opponent first, though.

[nareik123]

yes, i agree. Permission to use beardy abilities

[Yo-jim-bo]

I'm not sure it even counts as beardy when its something as pointless as giving a scout sarge termie armour. Sure its unfluffy, but its nto going to give you any kind of edge.

[nareik123]

its going to give your cheap sergeant better armour so he can slap on those melta bombs.

[cfoley]

I don't see how the two go together.

[Fixer]

I would personally Like to see a Codex: Chapters of legend, that would include minidex rules for all of the notably divergant or Unique chapters.

Black Dragons
Salamanders
Lamenters
Iron hands
Raven Guard
White Scars
Relictors
Exorcists
others I can't remember right now.

I say we bug GW about this :)

They were supposed to bring out unique box sets miniatures for every first founding Legion when they were working on their IA project. I know they forgot a couple, but most irritating of all they forgot the Salamanders again...