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View Full Version : Ideas galore (and they'd get more converts to Chaos!)


D'Viere
22nd Dec 05, 4:49 AM
Having ideas is like yawning, infectuous. After reading that post with suggestions by Ghaawak , I’ve had an inspiration of sorts…. :banana:

To make Chaos even more interesting and Fluffy Fluffy, how ‘bout removing Zerks and Possessed separate production facilities and instead having CSMs become them, by “casting” those “upgrades” on CSM tacs, a-la Bloodthirster summoning ( after reaching necessary tier and having necessary buildings ).

Apart from even more fantastic FXs, it would occasionally shake up todays placid factory assembly line-like spamming, and also finally own up to the fact that Chaos army core ARE CSMs, and that they are the most important and widely used.

So it could be something like this, in the relevant building, (zerks/sacrificial pit , possessed/daemon pit) you build at a certain cost those “transformations”, they also can be allowed to pile up to a certain amount before being cast ,like the horrors, then select one icon and right click on a tac squad that has minimum 5 members for ‘zerking’ and 3 members for ‘possessing’ .

If there’s more than minimum in a squad ; E. g. it has an Aspiring Champ. and heavy weapons , say , 4 HBs and there are 9 members, it’d be separated into the new unit of 5 zerks and a unit of 3 CSMs retaining 3 HBs and Aspiring Champion.
This separation shouldn’t be difficult to create, I think, as we already have Aspiring Champs separate from their parent squad into Bloodthirsters.

There are several interesting variations of this transformation.

1. Zerks could be reinforceable (of course, for a higher cost than originating CSMs), but possessed would not. Or both could be not reinforceable. In both cases the minimum number of their start up squad would be increased

2. Have Asp. Champ., if there’s one with tac squad, transform into Zerk Champ, if he is not there then Zerks could get their own. No such thing for possessed , of course , they’d be powerful enough as it is.

3. For frugally minded, even the loss of heavy weapons can be reimbursed in this way: “build” those upgrades free of cost, only on casting it on a CSM squad would the resources be subtracted ,less of them (full or half price of heavy weapons) if the squad loses any heavy weaponry.'

4. CSMs have their Champs, Zerks have their Champs, for something really nasty , have BloodThirster be attachable to possessed as their Leader! :muffy:
As a Greater Daemon , he is, technically and theoretically.

5. And finally, although it seems “game = true to fluff” is a dreamland combination, this method of creating new units out of CSMs could allow to have Chaos Mark based units. That is, instead of berzerkers allround, only a World Eater player would get Zerkers from his CSMs, a Death Guard player would get Plague Marines, Emperor’s Children – Sonic Weaponry Marines, Thousand Sons - Upgraded marines with some Psyker powers, all of the above with different stats and capabilities, of course.

For the sake of simplification and conformity Chaos Undivided armies (Night Lords, Black Legion, Word Bearers etc) could apply any Mark of Chaos to their CSMs, but once one is applied they’d be able to build only that Mark’s upgrades for their CSMs.Possessed would remain Possessed for all.

:angel: Aaahh, dreaming on, what a variety and tactical choices would that bring to team games.

I am in trance now – Khornate armies should have a team of BloodLetters instead of Chaos Sorcerors, while Thousand Sons should get a second, more powerful Sorceror instead of Chaos Lord. Nurgle and Slaanesh followers would get the usual CL and CS, as would Chaos Undivided armies who choose their Marks. (It would be necessary to chose one of the four marks for Undivided on hitting Tier 2.) If Undivided chooses Khorne, then at Sac. Pit CS icon is greyed out and BloodLetters appear.If it is Tzeentch they choose , their Chaos Lord ( if active at the time) would be irreplaceable, but they would get the ability to build that second, more powerful Sorceror, once Chaos Lord dies.
All four Marks of Chaos should get their own Greater Daemons.

After all that’s the thing about Chaos, fundamental variety.
Eldar have their various aspects.
Orks are a pan-galactic variety show as it is.
Imperium of Man thrives on conformity. A Land Raider of Dark Angels is the same as Space Wolves’. A Leman Russ or Baneblade tanks are the same in Catachans or Valhallans divisions with only minor variations. Not to speak of lasguns.



***** ‘Crash!!!’ Ouch ^%$&^ ***** Ok, I’m back on earth.
:gnight:


* just can’t stop the flow, for the next patch, (if any), Zerkers should get morale , only on hitting zero , they won’t break but enter Frenzy , where they will move much faster, but take double damage from everything, except melee attacks.


So what do Citizens of 40,000, think of the above?


Edit: Whoops , sorry,posted in the wrong place. :gonemad:

Edit: Forgot to mention, for those two upgradations, of course you'd need free pop cap. Those new units would definetly take extra pop.
If the entire CSM squad is transformed ,5 Tacs were "zerked" into 5 Berzerkers, then the original pop cap of the Tac squad is gone and freed up.

KaiserSoze
22nd Dec 05, 4:59 AM
I don't play Chaos a lot, but I think when U get bloddthister it costs u cap population, but u are allowed to increse the 20 limit. If this thing goes the same way, well, be prepared to see forces of Chaos ruling the late tiers specially in QS games

Given time Chaos could just outnumber like crazy. Simply by: Build 20/20 CSM, grow to the number and separate to Zerk or Possesed. Voila!, doble pop for same cap. With Bloodthister Chaos can already increase cap, but it's a unique unit so it's not a mayor issue like it could be it CSM are allowed to do this.

Moe
22nd Dec 05, 5:39 AM
Edit: Whoops , sorry,posted in the wrong place.

Where do you want it to go? I'll move it for you.

D'Viere
22nd Dec 05, 5:56 AM
@ Moe
Erm, after posting i thought it should have been in Balance.
If its in right place, well and good.

FarseerAnimal
22nd Dec 05, 7:08 AM
I think it sounds a damn good idea, a dream fluff/gameplay combination, of course lots of people are going to oppose the idea because its fairly radical for DoW, and there will be people saying "OMG W7F I c4nt sp4m z3rks now g4y!!!111", every cloud has a silver lining eh?
I like it, makes chaos seem, more chaosy but thats my opinion.

-FA

TBS
22nd Dec 05, 7:34 AM
These ideas are good, but are too much to be patched into DoW (perhaps for a sequel...) so they dont really belong in balance. I think it can stay here and people can discuss how to "fluff up" the other four races...maybe someone will even make a mod out of it.

KaiserSoze
22nd Dec 05, 7:57 AM
don't misunderstandme. I'm just marking that the idea has some practical problems to be implemented. As I undertand the CSM will in fact be acting as barracks for PSM ans Zerks . Probably using some hability that you has to research, just as you have to do to deploy bloodthister. The problem is about the limit pop. When the bloodthister is called into play you dont need to have enought room, so you can excede the 20 pop limit.

If the zerk, PSM acts the same way, there will be a lot of them. Unless you make an specific cap for them (like basilisks). If there is not there will ne no limit for their number beacuse meanwile you have a CSM alive you can just reinforce them and divide them, and so on. On the other hand you can't force this hability to be used only if the new sqad of zerk or PSM have enough room at that moment (pop <20) beacuse that way you are forcing chaos player to have CSM only to produce PSM and zerk, and they will be forced to hide CSM from enemy (he wont be able to have many CSM because he will need the room for the zerk or PSM) and if the CSM are killed chaos players wont be able to produce more zerk or PSM (or not until a lot of time: 1st CSM, then reinforce, then divide again).

So my point it's that this should be made very carefully or it will lead to not only spam zerk and PSM but to allow them to outnumber enemies in an incredible way. Specially in QS. I'm not a fan for spam, neither for the QS. But we have to know that there a lot of people who like QS, and QS and no limit for pop can make an unstoppable force (given enought time). And it could happen in normal games also, it the chaos can aford paid for that cantity of squads. On the other hand it could lead to Chaos player using CSM as mobile factories for zerks and PSM, and making them running lall the time just to keep them alive beacuse they could be more useful alive (and away from the frontlies) than killing enemies

Koki
22nd Dec 05, 8:21 AM
I think it can stay here and people can discuss how to "fluff up" the other four races...maybe someone will even make a mod out of it.

*cough*Rebirth*cough*

Corydorf
22nd Dec 05, 10:09 AM
I really like this idea, keeps CSM like the SM, but makes them nicely different. This sort of thinking would really help the game split the 5 races farther apart, which I think is an excellent idea.
It wouldn't make sense to do this like how SM do heavy weapons: i.e. each memeber upgrade, but as a squad, turning the whole squad into posessed or zerkers seems like a good call. I think they should be able to convert fresh out of the barracks, and reinforce as the new kind when the squad. The leaders should just turn into the new leaders of the squad type, thus keeping continuity across chaos armies.
I think therw should be an option in the Chaos stronhold to choose a mark, at the beginning of the game, maybe taking a little bit of time to research, and not able to be changed during the game, where you dedicate your army to one of the 4 chaos gods,thus giving them minor buffs/nerfs according to each god.
Every single race should have this option, to choose more of a "team/racial trait" at the beginning of game, or maybe even in the army painter, to give them traits, thus adding a new level of strategy to the game (hint hint relic, for the sequel)

doeden
22nd Dec 05, 11:03 AM
Really it comes down to the fact that Chaos dont look or feel like a daemon army. To me, im just playing as mutated and crazy space-marines with horns and spikes. Ofcourse, I know Chaos army's get 'warped' and 'mutated', but where are all the lesser and greater daemons? Theres one unit on the Chaos that is what you would expect a daemon army to have, and thats Horrors.

And Horrors you can't reinforce, they kind of suck aside from the fact that you can drop them anywhere. Sure, they are great in numbers, but who the hell is going to spam a unit you can't reinforce?

They need more crazy/daemon looking bad-asses to run across the battlefields of DoW.

Examples:
Daemons (http://us.games-workshop.com/games/40k/chaosspacemarines/catalog/plaguebearers.htm)
Daemons2 (http://us.games-workshop.com/games/40k/chaosspacemarines/catalog/flesh_hounds.htm)
Daemons 3 (http://us.games-workshop.com/games/40k/chaosspacemarines/catalog/furies.htm)

And this guy just cause he looks wicked with that Syth.
Syth (http://us.games-workshop.com/games/40k/chaosspacemarines/catalog/typhus.htm)

BeserkWraithlor
22nd Dec 05, 3:38 PM
I always thought of that Great idea for Chaos. No PSM, you get them from a normal CSM! Beserkers are for Khrone ONLY! Other chaos God followers get different greater Daemons and special units. I would like to see Great Unclean one and Noise Marines! Same thing with Spce Marines. Blood Angels get that Beserk Ability and Space Wolves do extra dmg. in CC.