Biel-Tan versus Alaitoc, some help please

[Waterbizkit]

You know, I thought it would be a cold, cold day in hell before I ever started a thread with subject matter along the lines of what I'll be asking/talking about here, but it's a cold, cold day here, so that'll do. So, I've hit a bit of a snag and would appreciate some feedback from the community, as that's what being part of a community is for.

Now, I still continue to model, paint, and play with my Black Templar. I still enjoy them as an army and will continue to do so. However, within the past month or so my mind has turned rather sharply towards the Eldar. I've always liked the thought of having a xeno army, but in my supreme weakness I fell for the shiney new templar models. With the initial euphoric rush gone now though I'm back in a xeno state of mind and I've always liked the Eldar for some reason.

As usual I've done a fair amount of reading up on the Eldar, and continue to do so since I like to be well informed before I jump right into something. After finally getting my lazy ass down to my local GW and buying the Craftworld Eldar codex, as I already had the vanilla 'dex, I've decided I'll be going with a specific craftworld over playing the vanilla army. Before I even had the craftworld codex I had thoughts of a Biel-Tan army, but after getting the codex I've started to consider Alaitoc.

I apologise now, and will again later, for the length of this post, but to try and get it finished up all the more quickly I'll try and get to the point:

The problem is that I'm not sure which direction to take at this point. Both craftworlds have pros and cons, which I'll list, in my eyes. What I really need is feedback from those of you who have played as or against either of these two craftworlds. While I won't necessarily base my decision off of what everyone says, since I am not asking you to make the choice for me, I will take what is said into account.

Now for what I see as the pros and cons of these armies:

Biel-Tan

Pros:
- I like the focus on aspect warriors as it allows for some creative army composition.

- I like the fluff. This is minor of course, but still something I do take onto account.

- The army, generally, seems stronger all around and this is the impression I get based on the basic make-up of a Biel-Tan force.

Cons:
- Hate, and I mean hate, the paint scheme. Now I know I can paint the minis however I want and just use the Biel-Tan organisation, but still....

- They seem overused. Overused may not be the right word, but they do seem to be a popular amry variant when it comes to the Eldar as a whole. This is just something I've noticed, so in the grand scheme this could be false. While I don't necessarily have some desire to play an "unused" or rarely seen army, I would like to try and play something you don't see everywhere (yeah, that's right, this is coming from a BT player :p ).

- The new Eldar codex is potentially due out late this year, early next year. With it there are bound to be new models of all sorts. Given that there's probably a minimum of about 10 months until the new codex (a number off of the top of my head) that's a lot of time to wait, a lot of time I'd rather be gaming with my eldar army. Problem is I'd rather not lay down a large sum of money for aspect warriors models, which will make-up the bulk of my army, that could potentially be redone inside a year... so I'd be better off waiting... which I'd rather not do.

Alaitoc

Pros:
- I like the fluff.

- I really like the blue paint scheme, though I'd probably go a little darker with mine than what I see in the codecies.

- I like the idea of many rangers, and thier disruption roles, in theory (see: "cons").

- Were I to go with Alaitoc I could happily start up the army sooner than later. With the new Ranger models due out soon I'd be happy using those for my new army. Even if there is a new codex due out within a year or so I doubt that Alaitoc rules would be changed so drastically as to mess with what I already had. So what it boils down to really is being able to start sooner with less risk of major change in the future. (this one is strongly linked to the con for Biel-Tan about new models/codex).

Cons:
- I'm very unsure about the force organisation in practice. The disruption roles are nice, but having the bulk of my army made up of snipers is something that both interests me but also sort of makes me sceptical. While I don't want an "end all" army, there is no such thing, I do want something that has a competitive potential should I ever wish to go that route for tournies etc.


Anyway, that's it. I once again apologise for the extreme length of this post, but I am one of those people who tends to ramble on to no end in some vain effort to fully explain my thoughts and feelings. Many thanks to those of you who can offer some words of advice/wisdom/experience.

~Bizkit

[CoatedTrout]

Hey, there are some new rangers (plastic I think) coming out with the new codex, so another con for Aliatoc.

[Aquila]

A very big con for alaitoc is that pretty much everyone hates playing against them.

[Full_ork]

Out of curosity, why is that?

[Ap0k]

Disruption rules.

Not many other armies can screw you up that much before even the first turn.

[Zarathustrian]

yeh, I have to side with Ap0k. If you want an army that most definately can win tournaments and annoys the hell out of your opponents, go with alaitoc (allthought you might find that not many wan´t to ply you again). And on the contrary to your beliefs, Biel-Tan is most unused of craftworlds. Ulthwe and Alaitoc being the most used ones.

[HiveMind]

I've always liked the Eldar for some reason.

Wierdo... :)

[Tarot]

Biel-Tan is most unused of craftworlds
Who the hell are you kidding? Both online, and in the assorted game stores I go to, Biel Tan are the ONLY ones used. They're just the easiest ones to cheese out.

[eventhorizon]

i agree with kblaes. the most popular craftworlds are biel tan and ulthwé, followed by alaitoc. not many people use saim hann or iyanden, but i think thats more $ problem.

you could do both armies, use the same heavy support, but have your aspects for one army and your rangers for the other. i would probably start with alaitoc when they get the new ranger models, and wait for the new 'dex to see if the aspect model range changes.

[Tarot]

Hey, there are some new rangers (plastic I think) coming out with the new codex, so another con for Aliatoc.

...How is that a con? New models is usually a good thing.

[bloodthirster2]

I've always liked the Eldar for some reason.

Wierdo... :)

ive always liked slannesh and dark eldar [/sarcasm]

be glad he didnt say that
i know a guy who plays all the craftworlds, basically to sum it up, i hate him

[Lancer]

...How is that a con? New models is usually a good thing.

I dunno, maybe he doesn't like Guardianesque Rangers. Personally, I think they're fine (except for the near-bald topknot heads, which should be replaced by a Falcon pilot head).

[Gotchaye]

Biel-tan is certainly the most popular variant, but it's hardly the most competitive. Ulthwe is king, with large Seer Councils, 6 squads of platform Guardians, and 3 Wraithlords. Alatoic comes in second.

The thing to keep in mind with Alatoic is that your snipers can actually handle everything short of AV12+ vehicles (and this is why you bring 3 Wraithlords, if you're feeling evil). Disruption rolls destroy a non-mech army, and then you've got 6-8 squads of Rangers (and then some Pathfinders) infiltrating into cover with a minimum 4+ save able to take AP1 shots at whatever runs the disruption gauntlet. As was said, many people find Alatoic cheesy, and you may have some irritated opponents, though with the way Eldar players complain about BT you may be used to it.

I actually imagine that Biel-tan will hardly change at all with the new codex, while Alatoic might get something of a revamp, since common wisdom seems to be that the disruption table is too much. You're right about new models, though.

[Popsumpot]

I love Ulthwe, it just seem so eldar with huge Seer Councils and lotsa guardians.

[Waterbizkit]

Well first I'd like to say thank you to all of you for your feedback. Some of it is more useful than other bits ( ;) ), but many thanks to all you.

When it comes to the issue of other players throwing hissy fits (of a sort) because of what army I've chosen to play I've got say that it generally isn't something that bothers me. The idea of getting annoyed because of what army your opponent plays is something which has always escaped me. As long as a list isn't purposely cheesed out, why get your panties in a twist? I play the game to have fun, and if the other people I play want to ruin thier own fun by concerning themselves more with what army I've fielded than simply with the challenge of beating it, then that's their prerogitive. I mean in my short playing time I've already faced off against a pretty cheesed out IW list, as an example, but didn't bother sweating it. I mean if you're going to worry yourself over the other army as it's getting placed on the board, then you've already ruined the rest of your game, at least that's my feeling. There are exceptions to this of course, as there are lists that are so badly cheesed out that the thought of playing an enjoyable game seems impossible, but all the same... it's a game and I try to treat it so.

As far as the army decision goes, I probably will be giving Alaitoc a shot. Once the new 'dex is out, whenever that may be, and I see what aspects get a model revamping, then perhaps I'll play under the Biel-Tan rules. The whole idea of new models being a pro/con is that I want to start gaming with this army as soon as I could manage it and I don't want to buy existing models only to find out that they're getting redone. Given that the new ranger models are due out soon that'd mean I would be much happier with buying those and starting an Alaitoc force sooner, rather than wait for the new 'dex and whatever aspects they decide to redo with that.

Anywho, keep any comments coming and thanks again.

~Bizkit

[Zarathustrian]

Kblades: What?? Biel-tan is cheesy? Chees.. Then you haven faced the 15+ strong seer council that is packed up by huge amount of starcannons(and 3 wraithlords) or fully maxed out Alaitoc disruption list with 3 wraithlords and abundance of starcannons.
Those are pretty much the only eldar armies that I see.

Waterbizkit: Alaitoc is annoing becouse of the disruption rolls. Those can ruin your opponents strategies and army(and game) without him having any change to stop or prevent it.

[Invictus]

Aren't we forgetting Saim-Hann here? An entire army of Jetbikes and Vypers on the move unleashing HELL, backed up by the usual array of Aspects and heavy vehicles of course.

Saim-Hann are NASTY.

[Waterbizkit]

backed up by the usual array of Aspects and heavy vehicles of course.

Actually, unless there's a FAQ that I missed, Saim-Hann only get one elite and one heavy support choice. Given that I wouldn't really say that they're backed by the usual aspect warriors and heavy support you might see in other eldar lists. Still, a Saim-Hann army with maxed out (or as close as points will allow) vyper squads equiped with CTMs and an array of starcannons, brightlances, and shuriken cannons would certainly be nasty. They'd be able to spend the entire game jumping here and there, in and out of LOS to shot you.

And while I can understand the frustration others would feel towards disruption rolls, it's still part of the game. I mean come on, this is a table top strategy game. The challenge and fun is supposed to come from pitting your wits against that of your opponents. They move, you counter-move, so on and so forth. I haven't had the pleasure of playing an Alaitoc force yet, and I'm sure were I ever to do so that the disruption rolls would certainly screw over any preconceived strategies I might have, but all the same, part of strategy is being able to improvise and deal with the hand you've been dealt. I'd like to think I am a big enough person, and be able to keep in mind this is a game of course, to be content with the game I played even if the disruption rolls meant I got "pwned".

All of this is subjective of course. I mean each game is different as is each opponent. If I played an Alaitoc player, who not only kicked my ass because of his armies special ability, but who was a total asshole himself... well then yes, the game would have sucked royally. Part of the frustration that can come from getting your ass handed to you on a silver platter comes from the disposition of the person you play with.

Anyway, I ramble. Anyone here play with or against an Alaitoc force regularly? Just curious and trying to keep things semi on topic. To be honest I've gotten what I had originally asked for, for which I am very thankful, so if people would rather let this die that's cool with me. :p Otherwise I'd be happy to keep this going if people want to talk about craftworld or eldar experiences in general. :) Whatever floats peoples boats.

~Bizkit

[Full_ork]

And while I can understand the frustration others would feel towards disruption rolls, it's still part of the game.

It sounds like it's not only part of the game, but part of the cheese of the game.

My advice would be to try it out, if people complain about those rules taking the fun out of the game, then give another stragety a shot.

It sounds like from this thread, that the rolls interfer with the game setup before the game begins, or before they can actually do anything, which would be annoying and not that much fun.

Or about as much fun as facing IW with 4 pie plates as footslogger orks.

In my example it's part of the game, but it's also no fun to play against with an army that has 0 chance.

I don't know enough about Eldar to give you a full anaylsis, and sometimes things are overated by people, but it sounds like that set of rules interfers with being able to actually do much, which can take the fun out of the game for the other person.

Gamesworkshop has done a decent job balancing the game overall I'd say, but there are some things that are in the game that just aren't fun for the causal player to go against.

That's my two cents.

[Gotchaye]

From what I've heard, the general consensus among Eldar players is that Saim-Hann is one of the hardest craftworlds (comparable to Iyanden) to get any use out of. The strength of the Eldar lies in their heavy support choices. Vypers just aren't that good (Land Speeders are far better, at least), though they are useful as cheap Starcannon/Lance platforms, and Jetbikes are miserable.

While CTMs help, they bring a Vyper up to around 100 points, and a single glancing hit will usually mess them up but good. Deep-strikers, Ordnance, and other fast vehicles all ruin Saim-Hann's day.

[Zarathustrian]

Waterbizkit: Disprution is annoying becouse there is nothing you can do to prevent it. No tactics or diffferent deployments help. I have played against Alaitoc couple of times, and the disruption really does ruin your opponents game(unless you roll 6 ones in a row). add in the new escalation rules and most armies are screwed.
One game with my Necrons against alaitoc, after deployment(disrption comes after deployment) I only had one pinned warrior squad and monolith on table. And my opponents starcannons pretty much destroyed anything I had when they came from reserves(bad luck on reserves, my squads came only one at a time). Game ended by the fouth turn.

[Brother Wolf]

Disruption rolls are no more annoying than a Drop Pod MEQ force or the Triple Hammerhead force or any of a number of other choices people make for their armies which, in turn, upset other players. Disruption rolls are pretty wicked, but no moreseo than countless other things in the game.

Personally, Alaitoc has sat upon the peak of my Eldar wish list for quite some time. I don't care for the new Rangers much, so I'm finishing up my Ranger purchases right now. Alaitoc can be very fragile once the game is unserway, which is why they are allowed a certain advantage before the game begins. I am fascinated by all things sniper rifle, so these guys are a natural fit. My current 1850 list, (woefully incomplete, however, thus forcing me to model sub to play it), is 2 Pathfinder units and 4-6 Ranger units. The backup comes from 2 Dire Avenger units in Serpents and Banshees in a Serpent. Heavy suport/counter attack come from Fire Prsims and Vypers, (thanks to these boards for opening my eyes to them), all under the leadership of a Farseer. The list is built to shoot and shoot well, however it will suffer at the hands of a dedicated CC force, (Khorne and BA come to mind). However, with 2 force weapons, 10 power weapons and the typical Psyker stuff to play with, it can find ways to hold off certain enemies while the shooters do their job.

Much like playing IG, where the goal is to get so many shots into the enemy that he fails a few saves, this force relies on forcing so many Ld tests that even Ld10 forces will fail a few.

It's not for everyone, but it can be alot of fun when played well.

[Full_ork]

"Disruption rolls are no more annoying than a Drop Pod MEQ force "

The Ork player in me laughs at that comment, I guess it's because Termies go down to a choppa, and the hidden pk makes wonders of Dreads.

But is that really on par with something that affects everthing before the game even begins?

[eventhorizon]

to be fair, after the game begins, all the sniper action really leaves alaitoc lacking in proper firepower...unless he packs 3 war walker squadrons too

[Brother Wolf]

unless he packs 3 war walker squadrons tooEeeewwww. He's a pair with Starcannons. Here's a pair with Bright Lances. Here's a pair with Scatter Lasers. Yippee!!! :wtf:

[Zarathustrian]

Lacking in firepower? you can easily have 12 starcannons, 2 brighlances and 6 disruption rolls (in 1500 points that is) And remember that on 4+ the pathfinders have ap1 sniper rifles.

[Brother Wolf]

12 starcannonsStinky Limburger cheese...

[Variatas]

That stuff is really f-ing gross. It tastes just like it smells....

[Brother Wolf]

Like ass?

[Ap0k]

If anyone would know what ass smells like, it would certainly be you BA...

;)

[Brother Wolf]

Damn chief... that's harsh. ;)

[Full_ork]

I missedread what he said, i thought he was saying bA as in blood angels smelled like ass and were overpowered.

I just noticed what he really ment haha

[Vulkan]

well if u find ur self at odds and ends write an armylist but don't buy the models for both and then when ur happy by models for whichever you like
I've played eldar for 2 years now and im weird i like Saim Hann speed kills faster than a catachan devil in a city hall

[Brother Wolf]

You can actually build both forces simultaneously, (which is what I am attempting at the moment, albeit slowly thanks to the gobs of Imperials I still have on the prep deck and the impending pimpness of the new Tau codex).

Start with either a 400-500pt Alaitoc patrol or a 500pt Alaitoc army. For a 400pt patrol, a unit of pathfinders, some Rangers and a unit of Banshees works really well as a start. Expand to 1000 with more obligatory troops choices & a farseer. Focus on Alaitoc. While you're playing at 1000pts, you can start buying other units of 'elites' like Scorps, Dragons, Spiders, etc. Swapping them in and out to see which styles you like. Once you have 3-4 units of aspect warriors, you can spin it around and start playing Biel Tan, using larger groups of rangers as elites. On paper I have about 8 army variations each at 1850, with the Alaitoc's focusing on a different attack style based on the aspect warriors in the 3rd elite slot while the Biel Tan's flood the table with Aspects. The two lists actually compliment each other very well in terms of collecting, but I would recommend Alaitoc first as it will be a cheaper army to start assembling.

[Waterbizkit]

Well I have decided to run both, with primary focus on Alaitoc. Admittedly though I do seem to be a bit better at writing Biel-Tan lists (expect one to pop up soon in the usual place soon), but that doesn't mean I'm going to set Alaitoc aside. The fact that it will more than likely cost me less money to start an Alaitoc force than a Biel-Tan (especially since my Biel-Tan lists tend to be heavily mechanised) only adds to the reasons to start with the outcasts first. :)

Looking forward to making the move from fervently loyal zealot marines (read: Black Templar :p ) to the Eldar. I've even decided to build a special diorama to commemorate the change up, so keep your eyes peeled, heh.

Many thanks for all the feedback by the way, it's always greatly appreciated.

~Bizkit

[Brother Wolf]

especially since my Biel-Tan lists tend to be heavily mechanisedMy Alaitoc list have 3 Serpents minimum, (1 Elite/Aspect & 2 Troops), and 1-2 Fire Prisms + Vypers for filler. That mechanised enough for you?

[Ruhanga]

With Alaitoc, how it can be fun to play, when other player plays and other removes models?

[Waterbizkit]

My Alaitoc list have 3 Serpents minimum, (1 Elite/Aspect & 2 Troops), and 1-2 Fire Prisms + Vypers for filler. That mechanised enough for you?

Heh, but what's the point level of that army? 1500? 1850? I'm sure if I started work on higher point lists I'd run a similar Alaitoc list, but right now I'm working on 1000 points. See, for some reason I fond it easier to build a solid 1000 point list, and then expand and change it as needed for higher point games. Don't ask me why really, but it's just my process.

In my 1000point Biel-Tan list (which I'll be posting soon) I've got two very minor variants: The first runs two serpents and two vypers, while the second runs two serpents and one falcon. For 1000 points I figure three or four vehicles ain't too bad, especially for a Biel-Tan list given the aspects you need to pay for. The number of vehicles is only bound to increase as points do.

In my Alaitoc (its latest incarnation) I've got a serpent and two vypers. I do have to admit, however, that I've got 194 points left in the army to spend and at the moment I'm considering another serpent with a storm guardian squad in it (I've already got 8 scorpions in another, figured maybe this would be decent back-up). Of course how I spend those points in the end and what advice I take on doing so is for another thread, not this one, heh. Still, the number you mentioned running seems similar to what I'd be aiming for, but again, I figure you're talking much more than 1000 points.

I guess I just get a more solid feeling from my Biel-Tan lists. Still, I am sticking with Alaitoc as my first move into Eldar just because I like the challenge. Biel-Tan won't be too far behind though.

~Bizkit

[Brother Wolf]

Yeah, all my lists are 1850. I personally have a really tough time playing mechanized at less than 1500. In my case, since I tend to build my 1000pt lists heavy on the footsloggers and prepped to play anti-MEQ, I'm afraid those serpents and Vypers of yours wouldn't last very long. Still, I can see some serious value and bein all fast skimmers will help alot more than they would if they were std tank fare. Anxious to see some of your lists in print, tho.With Alaitoc, how it can be fun to play, when other player plays and other removes models?Um, that's how this game is played. One player shoots, the other player dies. Then they alternate. I have never considered Alaitoc a cheesy army as they suffer plenty once the game begins. Ever plopped Alaitoc down and had the opponent show up with an Armored Company? Yipes!

Vs high Ld they suffer
Vs heavily mechanized they suffer
Vs drop pods they suffer
Vs heavily assault oriented armies they suffer

In the current metagame, Alaitoc has alot going against it. However, they are also capable, more often than not, of exploiting even the slightest chink in the enemy's game plan. The best Alaitoc lists are semi-mech, using serpents to keep the speedbumps in play and deployed where they need to be and vypers & prisms/falcons to keep the heavy firepower mobile. I've seen static Alaitoc lists, (war walkers, wraithgaurd/lords & massive guardian squads/weapon platforms), attempt to overwhelm the enemy with massive firepower, (Starcannon/Brightlance), and fall flat on their faces where the more mobile armies held their own.

Alaitoc is no cake walk. But I love their fluff and I love snipers.

[Waterbizkit]

Firstly:

But I love their fluff and I love snipers.

Amen to that. Fluff is always a big pull when looking at armies for me, and who doesn't like snipers?

And now:

I'm afraid those serpents and Vypers of yours wouldn't last very long. Still, I can see some serious value and bein all fast skimmers will help alot more than they would if they were std tank fare.

You kind of hit on why I take so many vehicles when I can, at least in these eldar lists, two words: fast skimmers. Can't honestly tell you why, but I love skimmers. Chances are it's the mobility they offer, but on a lesser note it's also probably an asthetic thing. I'm treadhead, if you drop the treads and add anti-grav capabilities. There's just something about an anti-grav tank that takes my interest.

Anyway, I'll get my lists posted later today for some feedback.

~Bizkit

[Full_ork]

Having read the disruption rules, I see where they are very hated, and I'd have to say it's worse then most things beakies might throw at you.

I'd keep that in mind when your designing your army, that many sucessfull disruption rolls would lead to not to many wanting to play against you. SO I simply wouldn't overdue it.

[Zarathustrian]

BrotherArmand: Ihave to disagree to some extent.

Against high LD, how come they suffer? Just shoot the buggers and use disruption to dunk the leaers into reserves.

Heavily mech, well.. hope for escalation and dunk the infantry support into reserves. and have couple of bright lances in your list.

Drop pods: well.. pods aren´t that great. opponent arrives in small numbers so you have time to deal with them. and disruption takes care of any infantry support they might have.

Assault army: use disruption to pin or dunk the assault elements into reserves and you have bought some time to take care of them.

To make Alaitoc effective you need around 6 disruption rolls so you can totally screw your opponents tactics.