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View Full Version : 1.5 IG... 30 days later. [strategy guide]



Troubleshooter
31st Jul 06, 7:20 PM
IMPERIAL GUARD (patch 1.5, +30 days)

See what happens when you have time on your hands but cant play... you get to do analysis :D

Below are the best bits of advice I have to IG players broken down by tiers. I tried to keep is short for each tier... with only the top 3 priorities (as I see them) for each tier broken down to the nuts and bolts.

There are obviously more things to consider, and no strategy guide can make you an expert... but if you are having general problems in any tier with IG, please take a look at these bits of advice and try them out.

I am posting some of Stephans replays in the battle archives: link here...->http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?p=1622572#post1622572
If you watch how he plays IG you will see most of the tier 0/1 tips in action. Good tutorial on how to keep your units out of direct conflict and how to execute a cap order. Its worth the time to watch these.. the guy balance IG to his preferences. :trix:

Quick rules of thumb:
Rule 1: RUN AWAY!
-----Tier 0, 1, 1.5... IG should never stand and fight anything that it can not easily kill (lone squads of cultists, scouts on harassment missions, units just passing by... smallish fuzzy animals who might bite... you get the idea.) If your las guns are firing, you are probably too close! Once you have grenade launchers, you have an offense... but you should work to keep it so that ONLY your grenade launchers are engaging the enemy until you have sufficient mass to actually fight it out... you will have to learn for yourself what that point is.

Rule 2: Cheap is your friend!
----- GM units should be reinforced at all times. The cost of losing a squad is very high... the cost of losing some members of a squad is quite low. When those expensive squads of enemy troops are chasing your squads around the map... you are actually winning. Weird, but true. Just be sure you are running in the direction of your bunkers/turrets when ever the enemy notices you are there... and stop, turn and fight when they get tired of running after you.

Rule 3: Bad morale makes squads excellent runners.
-----Your greatest weakness is your crappy morale... your greatest strength is hoards of cheap units. Combined, the two features of your Guardsmen make them excellent at overwhelming enemy forces or running away from enemy forces... broken squads run faster... look at that as a blessing :)

Rule 4: The command squad IS your army
----- your command squad should always lead the attack, and bring up the rear of the retreat. (first in, last out.) When enemy squads are chasing your units, they cant focus fire, so they target the nearest enemy unit or building... if that happens to be your command squad, they are mostly wasting ammo on commander armor. This is a good thing as it helps your units recover from morale loss faster and keeps their numbers stronger than if they were taking that damage themselves. Always try to keep a priest in the squad... and don't be afraid to lose the CS if it means saving an upgraded squad of Guardsmen... the CS is cheap by comparison.
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Tips broken down by tiers:

Tier 0 : Before the Tactica.
-----1. General concepts
----------a. GM are not combat troops before the tactica upgrades. Don't fool yourself into thinking that you stand any chance of fighting it out with just about anything at this stage without your CS.
----------b. Bunkers... you generally only need one. Your second building should almost always be a generator since you will need to get your tactica upgrades and probably a turret.
----------c. Buy the CS. Always buy the CS. Never make the mistake of putting off the CS till later... always always always buy a CS. Once you got the CS, you should always buy a priest as your first hero for the CS... then either a Commissar or Psyker depending on the situation.
-----2. Do's and Dont's
----------a. DO buy a generator as either your first or second building
----------b. DONT engage any force of tier 1 units
----------c. DO Get your CS as soon as possible.
-----3. Goals
----------a. You want to get your economy up to speed quickly and get your points defended as soon as possible. General advice on cap-order is that you should probably try to get the furthest point away from your base that you can reasonably defend first or second and be sure to put some sort of defense near by to make sure you can hold it until you get your units upgraded.
----------b. You should have one eye on the clock. You really need to have your tactica built before 3 minutes at the latest. This gives your units the opportunity to start hardening for the combat to come. Don't linger in tier 0 for longer than you have to. Its sometimes a tough goal to meet, but once you start feeling the pressure to hit 3 minutes or under you are learning good IG management habits.
----------c. Don't let harassment get you down.. stay on target and get your points built up with listening posts first, then go back to re-capture lost points with more units. If you fall behind badly from harassment – upgrade your Listening Posts to LP2 to compensate.


Tier 1: Get your running shoes on!
-----1. General concepts
----------a. Your units are getting stronger. All you need to do now is not lose them. Upgraded GM are surprisingly resilient compared to their tier 0 performance... and can actually out shoot most enemies that they out number.
----------b. Your economy is almost always going to lag behind your enemy. Compensate with getting LP2's. Consider that IG squads are expensive, reinforcements are not. Your ability to replace squad members for 20 req will start to take a toll on the enemy soon... be sure to lose only squad MEMBER, not whole squads.
----------c. Your command squad should be fully reinforced at all times and it should be the pointy end of the spear... first in last out! Keep the CS on point for any force maneuver, and in the rear for any retreat. The CS is cheaper and tougher than your squads, and makes a nice shield for them. Using the CS to tie up large squads allows your troops to pour fire into other smaller squads with impunity.
-----2. Do's and Dont's
----------a. DO kill off enemy squads first – target the smallest squads with focused fire to prevent them from reinforcing in the field and to prevent them from engaging cheap units in CC with yours. With luck, you will break their morale in the process and start taking much less damage.
----------b. DONT engage the enemy unless you have grenade launchers or have them handily out squadded. When ever your force comes under direct fire, start moving away. It cuts down on the damage your squads take and uses up valuable time for the enemy troops since they are always chasing your units or retreating from them.
----------c. DO always have an escape route. NEVER let an enemy force cut off your avenue of retreat. You should be running in the direction of a bunker as soon as your squads are in range of enemy guns. This is harder to do vs. a jump-troop using enemy, but the goal is the same... don't lose sight of your retreat options! A single squad of infiltrated CSM with heavy bolters could potentially kill off an entire army that tries to move through it on the way to a safe haven. Just keep in mind that even upgraded guardsmen are just not sturdy enough to fight against many forces.
-----3. Goals
----------a. Mass grenade launchers when ever possible – be sure that they are the weapon that sees the most action in your army. If your guardsmen are firing las-guns... odds are your troops are too close to the enemy.
----------b. Get more generators and prepare for tier 2. There is almost no chance of an IG player getting a win in tier 1 because the toll that your units take from LP's and Turrets is too high and their ability to take down buildings is too low. You will almost always be teching with IG – don't go into tier 2 power-poor if you can help it.
----------c. Try to put a turret near a high-traffic area of the map and use it to push the enemy in the direction of your primary forces. Turrets are not overly dangerous by themselves but they do have an impact in encouraging the enemy to move along routes that you are ready to defend. It helps you stage battles so that they are in your favor, on terrain you control, and may get some kills in to boot.


Tier 2: Hey, we got a chance!
-----1. General concepts
----------a. Tier 2 is a double edged sword... on the one hand you can start getting vehicles... on the other hand, the enemy can too... and odds are his vehicles will kill your infantry much faster than your vehicles will kill his. To compensate you just need to know one thing, who got to tier 2 first. If you think you have vehicles first, your priority should be to get a hell-hound or basilisk first. If you think that they got to tier 2 first, your priority should be to get 2 sentinels first. If you think its too close to call – take the middle road and get 2 chimeras and a psyker. Psykers and infantry/chimeras are almost as good at anti-armor duty as sentinels.
----------b. Getting your infantry fully upgraded is important. Balancing the priority of tactica upgrades against more heroes and vehicles is tough. Just don't forget to keep your units scaling. Oddly, its a pretty big racial advantage that your whole army keeps scaling well into tier 2... and if you keep their numbers up – even the added burden of the upgrades pays for itself in gained ground.
----------c. Basilisks are a very important unit in tier 2. But don't forget that they are fragile and expensive. A psyker can do almost everything a basilisk can in terms of disrupting formations, breaking squads, and also serving as anti-vehicle unit. Keep in mind the ability of both and don't over-rely on either. Find the mix that works for you.
-----2. Do's and Dont's
----------a. DO start being aggressive with your infantry... if you have not already, you should be taking the fight to the enemy lines soon. The rule of “run away” still applies, don't fight fair! Keep your squads moving and on the edge of the enemies range, never inside if at all possible.
----------b. DONT attack through a bottleneck if you suspect that the enemy has any sort of defense prepared. IG are unusually susceptible to bottleneck-shock.
----------c. DONT forget to keep your builders active. Repairs on vehicles, buildings, and new generators are a must for IG. You don't get many builders, but they are damn good at what they do... keep them occupied!
-----3. Goals
----------a. Don't linger in tier 2 for very long... IG are highly vulnerable to tier 3 units and vehicles – more than you you would believe. All those Grenade launchers and commissars wont save you from PSM or Whirl-Winds. I use the rule of thumb that you want to tech to tier 3 when the pressure to build another mech bay starts to mount.
----------b. Use your superior range to keep the enemy from settling in one place for long. If you have basilisks, keep them firing into the fog of war... when units appear on the mini-map, just cancel the order (hot key “Q”) and they will re target the nearest infantry threat. Use your grenade launchers to keep his forces under threat when ever they come too close. If you can keep his forces moving, then there is a greater chance of a pathing error, micro mistake, or just plain frustrating him into attacking before he is ready.
----------c. Get your command squad maxed out. It is not a bad idea to get a psyker or 2 in the command squad for reacting to vehicles on the fly. Sentinels cant always get through your lines to counter vehicles... give your infantry a fighting chance by having a psyker on standby at all times. You may consider keeping your CS on ranged stance and out of combat at this stage.


Tier 3: When Ogryn ATTACK!
-----1. General concepts
----------a. Kasyrkin are great units, but Ogryn are just all round better in this patch. If you have a choice, get Ogryn first. However, don't forget to mix in a kasyrkin squad with your Ogryn... it maximizes the shock effect of Ogryn to have some frags and hell-gun damage pour into the enemy lines. Also, Kasyrkin can tunnel via Listening Posts, where as Ogryn pretty much have to hoof-it.
----------b. Your base defenses are no longer useful. No amount of bunkering or turrets will save you from pretty much anything. You are an offensive force now whether you like it or not... get out there and kill something.
----------c. Sentinels are about to reach the end of their lifespan. You need an anti-vehicle solution, but sentinels are officially wasted req since the field is probably rife with anti-vehicle infantry, turrets, and the like. You can keep a few on standby in the event that the enemy throws older model mechs at you... but you really should think of using more psykers and infantry to handle vehicles. If you are going to keep the vehicles coming, hell-hounds and basilisks are the best way to go.... but you really should save your cash for teching if at all possible.
-----2. Do's and Dont's
----------a. DO use a mixed force when you go offensive, kasyrkin firing from behind ogryn are a great combo for maximizing the damage your infantry do to the enemy.
----------b. DO build your assassin as soon as tier 3 finishes.
----------c. DO build infantry commands around the map and some mines in high traffic areas. The infantry commands will keep you alive in the event your main base if killed off while you are away. It is best to upgrade the IC's with both Ogryn and Kasyrkin bays so that you can continue to build them no matter what happens to your HQ. The same goes for Mech bays... if you have the room, drop an extra one in a safe place and buy all the “bays” just in case.
-----3. Goals
----------a. Create a wave of infantry with ogryn and command squad on point, kasyrkin in the rear... and follow it up with basilisks, sentinels, and hell-hounds. If you get your army properly layered on open ground, you can easily roll over just about any force with a little bit of micro.
----------b. Protect your tech! Take the time to build extra infantry commands in safe places and research your upgrades. Keep your builders dispersed or in bunkers so that no matter what happens to your base, you can always rebuild.
----------c. Get a full compliment of heroes for your army. It may never happen that every squad has a hero before you commit it to combat, but the goal remains... TRY to do it regardless. Its a good habit to get into. And if you have the resources, and the HQ is not busy, build all your psykers. Use your assassin, don't just plop him down in an enemy base waiting for something, he does phenomenal damage... use him as a throw away hero if you must... just keep him occupied. When you have allies that need LOS on an enemy base (especially eldar bases) then the assassin is the ideal unit to help... just remember that he does not need to be inside the base to do his job... the scope gives plenty of LOS from a safe distance.


Tier 4: All out war, or how IG got its groove back.
-----1. General concepts
----------a. Lemans are probably the best tank in the game save fire prisms. You need no other vehicle unless you like basilisks for arty support or earth-shakers. You should feel free to over watch them.
----------b. The Bane Blade is a very good super unit... if you can get him, do so. He costs more than a Leman but the same population cap.
----------c. You should be able to sustain quite a bit of over watch from your unit producing buildings... be aggressive and keep your infantry supported by lemans... but you must not be idle. Keep your units attacking something... anything.
-----2. Do's and Dont's
----------a. DO get the Bane Blade when possible.
----------b. DO keep a builder close to the front to do repairs on your mechs. If you have a Bane Blade, bring all 3 builders to keep the paint shiny on it. Just be sure that as the builders get killed off (and they will) that you IMMEDIATELY replace them from the headquarters and put them straight away into the tunnels.
----------c. DO NOT mass your units quietly... if you have to mass them, try setting your rally point close to the enemy lines... make them fight through your units to get to the good stuff. Better to mass your Lemans under fire than to try to sucker punch someone with a full cap of them. IG armies are great on offense at this stage, but not-so-hot at defense. I find it best to keep the enemy occupied well away from my base at this stage of the game. Don't be afraid to fall back if your forces get hit hard... dead squads are still to be avoided at all costs... but keeping the forward pressure up along with your superior ranged units will keep the enemy from “surprising” you in your base... and it lowers your response time to a “base trade”
-----3. Goals
----------a. Protect your tech. Now by keeping the fighting as far from your base as possible.
----------b. Kill the enemy.
----------c. Try to keep your tanks from being killed. Its cheaper to repair them than to replace them.. and the trip to the front can take a long time on some maps. Your builders are excellent at repairs... use this advantage as much as possible.
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ShadowWatch on how to play shrine of excelon... but good advice overall.you need to cap the outside points with you first 2 squrds and double gen. the logic goes like this. if you have 4-5 gens before you get t2 or just after will give you enough power to lay down the req upgrade as well as one bassie almost immediately, on the map, if you can't defend the outer point, you still get 4 points which if you lp2ed and got the upgrade can still offer you sth like 100+ req, that with the relativly low req requirements for IG is enough to give you a fighting chance.

don't get scared of enemy geting your points, you need to know if he spent his money on the offensive not on lps, even he managed to cap one of you points, due to the money spent on troops he's behind on number of lp2s, so you are not at a disadvantage on econ. also, lp2s gives you a defensive advantage. basiclly the key is not to over build guardsmen, anything above 3 is a horrendous waste, a turret can do a great deal more than t1 guardsmen, and the two side harrase thing can be easily handled by double bunkers.

the general idea for IG now is to defend using a combination of buildings, men and turrets to buy time and use the arty shelling to softern the enmy down, them conter attack to regain(not invade!!!!) ground. then win through superior teching. and the bigger the map, the easier to do coz the prelonged shelling of arty and losing a small amount of ground only means you lose 1 point, (not like on BR you can lose two lps if you lose the river )

so in a nut shell, don';t over spend on t1 on troops and always soft up the enemy before lauch your troops. don't afraid of losing buildings



ShadowWatch : more pearls of wisdom.this mass thing just won't work at all

analysis: you need to out spend the opponet to have any chance for not been wiped out if both side decided to mass troops. and if you massed troops while you oppnet didn't, you CANNOT over run him, as the cs got building damage nerfed and guradsmen die horribly. so either way mass tropps in t1 gonna lose you the game!!!!!!

verdict: don't mass troops on t1

so what if the oppnet mass and trying to overwhelm you?, simple, firstly, you need to make sure NO engagement happens outside you bunkers or lps secondly, do not afraid to lose bunkers and infantry command. if you think carfully, you will discover that one turret= 1 commie and 1 ic = 6 guardsmen. in terms of effectiveness in a base defence, just take a 3 squrd sm tacs rush forexample, when facing with 18 or so sm, 3 full guards will evaporate and probable take with them 1 or 2 marines max, becase all of them brok within 2 seconds, but when faced with 1 ic + 2 guards (which cost less) the marines gonna pay a death toll about 6-8 and you can have bunkers to retreat you almost dead guardsmen, throw in a turret and with some repairs you can hold all the marines back. even you outpost is overrun, you can always turnel back to another lp and up another turret defence, this way, you not over spending and the opponet can't overwhelme you.

then t2 you have a fighting chance. Since this is about t1 discussion i shall not talk to much about how to play t2, just give yo ua brief idea, use IC as meatshields, spam them, the time taken for an enemy mass to take down a firing ic will give you bassie at the back time to fire about 2 rounds, so while he's pushing you, your atilery is softerning him down, only engage with you guradsmass at the final line of defence, roughly at the point you have nowhere to hide you atilery.



Sir Nick: Good advice regarding IG and close combat
There is also a critical thing about melee combat that units in melee combat take 23% less ranged damage and 90% less morale damage. If you send Guardsmen into melee, you can stretch out the morale much longer and stretch out that life just that much further, especially in cover.

Combine that with Commisar Power Swords and their extra 2.5 HP per second regeneration boost, and that's actually some decent longevity.

Heck, for cost, Guardsmen beat Ork Boys in melee damage output. That's something I never would've even imagined before I watched some of Stefan Haines's replays over at DoWSanctuary where he charged several Commisar'd Guardsmen squads into melee with Shootas and Sluggas along with the Command Squad, and pulled through quite well without breaking and nailing the Big Mek, too.

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This section brought to you by : Sir NICK

First things first -- as a handy reference, everybody needs to bookmark Slow_Runner's and Excedrin's DoW reference sites from my signature. Now. This will make things easier in the future for number-crunching.

In particular, take note of build-times and perhaps damage per hit. When you've got the game-timer on and you've just hit Tier 2 and need to know how long you need to pull back to get that Basilisk out, this is where you'd want to look.
By the way, it's going to be 1:15 after Tier 2 completes at the minimum with everything built instantly after the previous bit finishes to get that first Basilisk out.

There's a lot of things here, so enjoy thumbing through them. This is mostly concerned with IG's Tiers 1 and 2, so go elsewhere for now for your Kasrkins and Ogryns.

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Here's some data on vanilla Guardsmen.

150 HP, 100 morale, 20 second build time for squad of 4, 7 second reinforce. That reinforce time is important to know, especially since just about everything besides Reapers and Space Marines (of both flavors) reinforce quicker than Guardsmen and don't die as quickly.

They have 0.5 HP/second regeneration, 3 morale/second regeneration. Morale armour is 0.5, meaning that listed morale damage you might see in weapons stats is cut by 50%. For reference, most units in other races have 0.5 morale armour too and have on the order of 7-10 morale/second regeneration rates.

They break at 0 morale, unbreak at 30 morale, and must spend a minimum of 12 seconds broken.

Every dead Guardsmen will reduce morale by 30 in-game.

Commisars boost Guardsmen morale by 200, boost their health regeneration by 2.5 up to the value of 3 HP/second, and do not affect morale regeneration rate. If a Commisar squad is broken, it ain't going to un-break any faster than a vanilla squad. Same goes for any other attachment, though.

Priests boost each Guardsman's HP by 100, boost the squad's morale by 400, ups speed by 33%, and boosts damage of each squad member's weapon by 50%.

Psykers don't boost any stats on Guardsmen when they are attached, but they are detectors of cloaked units. Strip Soul and Lightning Arc do morale damage to the squad, though, so detach your Psyker to use those spells, then re-attach him if you don't want to break your Guardsmen.

Each attachable officer requires 25 seconds to build. The Psyker add-on to the HQ requires 30 seconds, and the Priest add-on requires 10 seconds. You can have three of any officer max.

Sergeants have 200 HP, cost 55/15 and require 15 seconds to build. They add 35 HP to the squad and 50 morale. Otherwise they're the same as a vanilla Guardsman.

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Techpriest Enginseer Numbers
Techpriest Enginseers have 310 HP and cost 75/0 and 20 seconds to build. The long build-time makes them difficult to replace. You can have a maximum of three Enginseers. They have 300 morale, but have 0.0 morale armour, which means they do not take any morale damage from any attack. This means that they can never break. They are armed with Power Axes and Laspistols, but these are ineffective as main offence against most targets besides light infantry.

They repair buildings and vehicles at 60 HP/second, at 75% of the listed cost. This is the highest repair rate for a builder in the game. The balancing factor is that no building or vehicle other than the HQ or Baneblade can have more than one repairer on it. The HQ can have up to three repairers, as can the Baneblade. So, don't double up your repairing with your Enginseers; you won't receive any further benefit unless it's your HQ or Baneblade.

Techpriest Enginseers have Commander armor, instead of infantry_low armor like most builders, so they are a bit more resilient than most troops. However, concentrated fire will bring them down quickly, and they are often in the line of fire due to repairing buildings and vehicles. When possible, preserve Enginseers, especially when Tiering up when you cannot replace them.

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Upgrades Numbers

Death before Dishonor is 75/15, takes 20 seconds, gives 15 HP and 100 morale, and boosts morale regeneration rate up to 6 morale/second. This is a priority research in that there is no other way to boost morale regeneration rate of Guardsmen besides this research.

Body Armor is 100/50, takes 45 seconds, adds 50 HP to each Guardsman and 150 HP to the Sergeant. That's it.

Uncommon Valor is 100/100, costs 60 seconds. It boosts Command squad size to 5 members, and boosts the HP of all members of the Command Squad by 100. This combined with the Priest's HP buff make for durable commanders.

Will of the Emperor is also 75/15, 20 seconds. It boosts HP by 25 and morale by 150. You may want to get DbD first because DbD boosts morale regeneration rate at the expense of less of a boost to HP and morale.

A fully Sergeant'd, upgraded Guardsman will have 150+15+25+35+50 HP, bringing him to 275 HP total. He will also have 100 + 100 + 150 + 50 = 400 morale.

Satellite Targeting Resolution is 100/25, 30 seconds, and boosts Lasgun and Plasma Gun ranges by 20%. This brings the range of both guns up from 27 to 32.4. For reference, 25 Range is the range of a Space Marine Bolter or LP2 gun. 30 Range is a Space Marine Plasma Gun. 35 range is a Chaos Heavy Bolter or SM HB.

Weapons Specialization is 100/50, 45 seconds, and boosts Grenade Launcher and Plasma Gun damage by 50%. The research code's value is 100%, but the cap in the game's engine prevents that bonus from being higher than 50%. It also applies to Kasrkins. This is important because Kasrkin Heavy Weapon damage was reduced in this patch, and Weapons Specialization brings that damage almost back up to 1.41 levels.

Each of the Tier 3 researches for Kasrkins and Ogryns take 60 seconds apiece. The effects are very straightforward -- Speed bumps Kasrkins up 33%, Armor boosts HP by 25%, Bayonettes boost Ogryn and Bone'ead damage by 25%. It may be worth a second Tactica to research these concurrently. Also, you need a Kasrkin or Ogryn Quarters before you can research their upgrades. As an addendum to Kasrkins and Ogryns, they require Tier 3 for their Quarters to be build in the Infantry Command, but when those quarters are built you can continue to produce Kasrkins or Ogryns regardless of tech level.

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Imperial Guard Command Squad Tidbits

The CS General takes 23 seconds to build at 120/25, and 20 seconds at 100/25 to reinforce if killed. He has 450 HP.

The Commisar takes 25 seconds to reinforce, has 375 HP, and is the cheapest at 80/40. He's the best shooter besides the General, and second-best at CC, doing about 80-85% of the damage of a Priest. A Commisar does about 50% of the damage a General would do. His strength is high HP and quick reinforce time.

The Psyker takes 35 seconds to reinforce at 100/50. He has 250 HP. He does about half the damage of the Commisar in both melee and shooting.

The Priest takes 40 seconds to reinforce at 90/40. He has 250 HP as well. He boosts all members of the CS, including himself, with 100 extra HP, 33% more speed, and 50% more damage. This does not stack multiple times for multiple Priests. He has no ranged damage, but does massive CC damage.

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Tidbits about killing things as IG

Guardsmen Lasguns do 5-6 damage to infantry at 50% accuracy standing, 30% on the run, with 0.5 seconds to reload. They do perhaps 3-4 damage per hit to Commanders and 4-5 damage to heavy_high classed infantry like Terminators.

Grenade Launchers for Guardsmen cost 20/15, take 20 seconds per Launcher to build, and have a max range of 45 (greater than SM Heavy Bolters!). They reload every 3 seconds. There's a minimum range of 15, as a warning, and have a setup time of 1 second.

Grenade Launchers, as a weapon, do about 55-75 damage per hit to infantry_heavy_med armor, which is the class of Space Marines and the like. This is in a radius of 2.5, which for reference is about two to three troopers wide. They do a bit more to other light infantry, but only a bit more, so let's focus on the 55-75 value. Most main-line infantry in Tier 1 have 300-400 HP, give or take, and Ork Boys have about 250. A single grenade will do about 15-20% of a troop's health worth of damage per hit. Getting three or six grenades will blow massive chunks of life away quickly if the other guy doesn't skedaddle away. Post-Specialization they will do about 80-110 damage to heavy_med (rounded a bit), which is still a decent chunk of life as Tier 2 infantry tends to have 500-600 HP, and Nobs have 865 HP post-'Eavy Boy Armor.

Plasma Guns cost 35/15 and build in 15 seconds, quicker than Grenade Launchers. They have a range of 27 (32.4 after Satellite Targeting Resolution) and an accuracy of 65% standing, 45% on the move. They reload in 0.5 seconds.

As a weapon they do about 14-21 damage to heavy_med infantry per hit. For comparison, Guardsmen Lasguns do 5-6 damage per hit to most infantry armor. The strength of Plasma is its fire-on-the-run properties and fast reload time. In the span of three seconds that a Grenade Launcher is reloading after a shot, a Plasma Gun has shot six times. Plasma Guns also reinforce five seconds quicker than Grenade Launchers and do far, far better building damage. Post-Specialization they do about 20-35 damage per shot (rounded down) to infantry_heavy_med armor.

An attached Priest to a Guardsman squad boosts damage per hit by 50%. This means that Grenade Launchers do ~80-110 damage pre-Specialization, ~120-165 afterwards to infantry_heavy med, while Plasma Guns do 20-35 damage pre-Specialization, 30-53 damage post-Specialization. Considering the reload of 0.5 seconds on the Plasma Gun, a Priest'd Plasma'd squad is very dangerous. However, just four Priest'd Specialization'd Grenades will kill a single Bionics'd Space Marine from far beyond the range of the SM's Heavy Weapons.

For reference on combining firepower with Curse of the Machine Spirits, Grenades do about 50% less damage to infantry_heavy_high (the armor class that the vehicle is changed to) and Plasma Guns do about 10% less damage.

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IG Vehicle Production Logistics

Each Mech Bay takes 45 seconds to build with one builder and 30 seconds to build with two builders. Each vehicle depot that you add requires 15 seconds, with the Leman Russ Depot requiring 30 seconds. Once a depot is added, you can continue to produce vehicles even if you are deteched, but you cannot add more depots if you lose your Tier 2. Chimeras can also always be built regardless of tech level.

Chimeras, Sentinels, and Hellhounds require 20 seconds to build. Basilisks and Leman Russes require 30 seconds to build.

Building multiple Mech Bays, in addition to added vehicle cap, is a good idea because it lets you build two vehicles at once, economy willing.

IG Vehicle Damage Output

Chimeras do about 50 damage per hit to everything, 1-second reload, and have 50% accuracy. Their side guns do perhaps 40-45 damage to most targets except vehicles and buildings, which are about 20-odd damage per hit apiece. The side guns are typically not worth using as a result.

Sentinels do, as a roundabout figure, about 450-500 damage per shot to light and medium vehicles (that is, everything but Kans, Land Raiders, and Baneblades). They have 80% accuracy even on the move, reload in 3 seconds, and have 40 range. They do reasonable damage to commanders (~70 per shot) and building_light (Waaagh! Banners, LPs, Generators), at about 150 damage per shot. You want to have Sentinels operate in pairs or triplets to maximize damage per shot, since Sentinels die quickly without doing much damage when alone or when sent in one at a time.

Hellhounds do very low damage per hit, about 15 or so per hit to most infantry at 50% accuracy twice a second. Their strength is in doing damage over a large, large radius (a radius of 10, about 2 times larger than a Basilisk shot). They won't kill things quickly, but they will kill an entire squad at the same time. This is a good thing because the squad will not have a chance to reinforce quickly. Again, you will want to work your Hellhounds in pairs or triplets both to cover one anothers's minimum ranges, and to increase killing speed. A single Hellhound will take over a full minute to kill a Nob, but three Hellhounds will roast the squad in about 20 or so seconds.

Basilisks specialize in doing large damage per shot. They do ~175-375 damage per shot to infantry_heavy_med armor, killing a Space Marine about every 2 or so hits. They do about 210-450 damage per hit to infantry_heavy_high armor, killing a Terminator in about five hits on average. They do damage in a radius of 5 and reload in 6 seconds, with very high scatter on their shots. They have a maximum range of 120 and a minimum range of 10, so on a 257-sized map such as Biffy's Peril or Fallen City a single Basilisk can cover nearly the entire map if it is parked in the middle. They will very likely kill your own Guardsmen in a single shot or two if you're lucky, so be very wary of that. Their Heavy Bolters do high damage per shot to infantry, about 55-65, at 50% accuracy and 1 second reload, but have a VERY short range of 15, about spitting distance. Don't rely on them to kill things with those Heavy Bolters.


The Earthshaker Round special ability costs 200/200 to use. The Basilisk will take 10 seconds to prepare the shot before firing, and there is a 20-second wait after the shot before you can use it again. Its damage is done in a radius of 8 and has the same max range as the regular Earthshaker Cannon, 120. Its base damage is 2000-2800, but against most targets, including vehicles and all buildings, the actual damage is 1000-1400. Against infantry_heavy_med and monster_med, the damage is 700-980. Against infantry_heavy_high (Terminators, PSMs, Tier 3 Nobs, etc.), the damage is 500-700, and against Commander units the damage is 400-560.

There is an additional property to the earthshaker_round ability in that it adds 75/75 to the cost of firing the Earthshaker Cannon on the Basilisk. I would imagine that this is where the "Basilisk Bug" of regular shots costing power and requisition comes from. Unconfirmed?


Leman Russes do 330-430 damage a shot with a 2.5 second reload, at 60 range and 70% accuracy. Their Heavy Bolters do about 40-70 damage per shot to infantry with a 1-second reload and 50% accuracy, and very little damage to other targets, but their range is 35. Leman Russ Heavy Bolters don't have tracers, but they are firing. Since their range is far beyond their own line of sight, you will want spotters for them so that they can stay out of the line of fire.

********

The Vindicare Assassin

The Vindicare Assassin shoots things that are not buildings or vehicles for 1100-1300 damage apiece every 7 seconds at 80% accuracy. The Scope boosts that figure up to 1650-1950 damage per shot for a full 15 seconds. This damage range also applies to monster_high, so Squiggoths and Bloodthirsters are prime targets for the Assassin. Vehicles struck by Curse of the Machine Spirits are prime targets for the Assassin as well. He is very spammable at a 100/50 cost and 25 second build time. He also does very good damage to light buildings in melee.

********

Blink
31st Jul 06, 7:23 PM
I don't play IG, but if I wanted to, I'd read this first.

Well done.

Hiroshi_Tea
31st Jul 06, 7:50 PM
this would be great in the tactica imperialis section
they could use some more updated stuff

by the way
wonderful stuff Trouble
very well written and even more fun to read then the side of a cereal box
some stuff is basically common sense
but others, they're worth their salt
maybe IG do have a lot of potential left in them
kodos

The_Guardman
31st Jul 06, 9:26 PM
Great work! Should be moved to tactica and stiked!

KingLouis
1st Aug 06, 1:29 AM
Word, very FRESH perspective on 1.5's IG - should be moved to Tactica forum asap.

Raiden
1st Aug 06, 1:50 AM
Thanks Trouble for this write-up about IG. :thumb: Reading this gives me more confidence the next time I play this faction, and I realized that I have been playing them rather poorly and now I know why.

ImmortalChaos
1st Aug 06, 2:00 AM
For the newbies reading this and finding themselves short in cash~

DO Get you global power upgrade ASAP when you hit T2. Its cheaper, and you need more than +60.
TRY to have all your global upgrades before you teir up. Have both econ upgrades before T3, and both lvl2 econ upgrades before T4.

And dont forget herospam in T0... You can have a CS with commie/preist, 3 commies for melee, AND 2 gmen squads renforced to the max faily early. That is a strong enough force to deal with a lot of other races forces. I have beaten 2 tac squads an a FC like that, simply have the CS attack one squad, the 3 commies the other, and have the gmen focus onto one squad. If they try tp pull out, set eveyone on ranged and FF the smallest squad. When killing the FC simply swarm him in heros.

Stormsong
1st Aug 06, 2:05 AM
Excellent post, troubleshooter! Some good advice there, thanks for that. :up:

Octopus Rex
1st Aug 06, 2:35 AM
Wow. Very comprehensive. Especially the way the detail is kept up into T3/4. Many guides just give a BO or two and mainly cover the lower tiers.

This should be in Tactica.

primzahl13
1st Aug 06, 3:33 AM
Good Work Troublechutor! Finally someone wrote a guide.

@ImmortalChaos
Sounds interesting
Could you post a BO or a Replay? I mean i'm gonna try this right away but it would be interesting to see how exactly you dealed with the tacs and the FC (!?)

Elferx
1st Aug 06, 4:05 AM
My favourite combination on IG
If i am attacking and they are attacking.
FoF + CC units and lone range units. Esp love FS for her disrupting abilities.

If i am attacking and they are retreating.
Entanglement + Rangers + Heavy Fire.

If i am retreating
FoF
LOL

Really good thread btw, at least now i have some decent IG players online who can give me some challenge and fun. And also learned how to use Ig and insights to counter them. HEHE

Giant Moth
1st Aug 06, 4:16 AM
Call the Adaptus Administratus! This holy thread must go into the honoured Tactica Imperialis!

PS: Troubleshooter, could you add another section to your guide where you explain the technologies of the Imerpail Guard, their priority level, and in which tier you should get them / how fast. And also, the use of sargeants? Are they worth having 100% of the time?

nerf_IG
1st Aug 06, 4:45 AM
omg i sense a great sense of IMBA coming from your guide.QUICK NERF IG (joking).
Good job on the guide.It's going to be a great help to IG players(new and old).

Troubleshooter
1st Aug 06, 8:09 AM
To all: Keep in mind that I still get my ass kicked in 1v1 Auto more than half the time (except on 4p maps where I reign supreme :p)

These tips are good for getting the most from IG in 1.5, but they are by no means going compensate or IG's severly broken nature in tier 1.

Dont get me wrong... Ig has potential to be playable - but I still find that a competent player, say over 1450 on the ladder will just cream you most of the time. There are so many ways to counter IG now that it hurts my brain to contemplate what might actually be considered a "safe" IG build. So far the only thing that makes sense is 2 gens early and get your toys fast... I just cant bring myself to do that yet... giving up SP's just runs too counter to my instincts.

@Elfrex: Yep, entangle would be very costly on the first squad you pulled that on - hopefully that would trigger the "turtle response" in the poor unfortunate IG player. Eldar have always had IG's "number" in that match up - its really not different now.

Akranadas
1st Aug 06, 8:11 AM
Just give me the word Troubleshooter when you think it's ready and I'll move it to Tactica

Troubleshooter
1st Aug 06, 8:19 AM
Cool akranadas... I will give some thought on adding the tech-analysis to it, but I am still working out in my head how best to provide general advice on it.

Tech options are pretty situation-specific. Seems like the only ALWAYS advice is the econ upgrades - since you are almost always behind the econ curve now.

As for squad tech - I have my prefrences, but without doing better in the ladder, I would be spewing out theory craft.

If there are any IG players with more specific advice in this regard... please share.

Even if this goes in the tactica - it may get out-dated very quickly as tactics and conventional wisdom evolve. Thats why I put the +30 days in the title line, its just the way I have seen the race evolve over the last month. Also, there is a remote hope that there will be a hot fix that may alter IG significantly... not sure if the whole post would have to be revamped as a result.

Let me think about it...

Epilon
1st Aug 06, 10:49 AM
Trouble could you just mention somewhere in the thread by what time IG should normally go to teir 2, just as you said about teir 1. Since IG shouldnt linger too long in there giving a timer for teching to teir 2 would help alot of new players just like your first one.

DatonKallandor
1st Aug 06, 10:59 AM
I can't see any mention of attaching and detaching of commies, trouble. Have newer test shown they shouldn't be used for CC?


Daton

ShadowWatch
1st Aug 06, 12:49 PM
well, i think it's not to say commies should not be used in CC if you have them. The idea is IG t1 is so weak that if you managed not to lose points is already good enough. and commie CC ing is more of an offensive act, which you shouldn't do and can't do effectivly given the current IG circumstances.

only exception is on OR where i find the best build is 2 man cs + 2 commie(melee and tie up) and 2 squrds shooting. beware this build will lose effectiveness on 3 minutes mark( that's when then opponet have 3 or more shooty squad, which will dance and eat you commie one by one). You objective within the first 3 minutes are cap 3 points near your base and one of the top 2 points and fortify. do not contest for the middle if you opponet have any quility. the cramped space is a pathing nightmare and generally benifit more elite armies becasue ig can't fan out and maximize firepower. you probably need 3 Bunkers, covering top, middle and the first one at the base. IT is a sound investment, allowing you with mobility and defence flexibilities.

after you done these things. you next objective is tech to t2 and in the mean time lauch some conter attacks.

i'd like to introduce the concept of offensive IC. since IG t1 troopers are real crap IG need some form of heavy hitters, and the answer is the IC. Cheap in price and can be built realtvly fast, IC should be with you in any offensive. also the big build area is a IG specialty to make this strategy econmical.

and this strategy works best on OR because every point is postioned closely to the next and one IC built on build area generate in one lp can reach the next stratigic point. Also, that's the reason why on OR the top point is more favouralbe than the middle point. what you do is using 3 tp and call down a IC on the edge of build area and mean while summon all the troops immdiatly follw the TP. this will creat a panic situation for the enemy also they face a delemma of chosing targets, some times they just scard away and abandon their outposts. IF they target the builders, run them back a bit and you guardsmen and commie and generals can take bit of free shoot, same applies, if troops are targeted run them back a little too, and it should be very simple to defeat the enemy when the IC is done.

there are further benifits to this offensive IC build. once you banished the enemy and takne control of the point, it's already fortified. and if the offensive is not successful, you can run the troops in bunkers and tunnel back, otherwise you will lose many men retreat on foot. and at worse you should be albe to cause more death to the other side for cost. Also, they have further values in t2 as well. when a superior t2 army arrives, every bunker will act as a spotter for artys at the back which means the enemy will pay heavily in every step it advaced. while you just lose a 125 req worth building. And it's more of an IG feel, like a big iron claw with many bankers and turrets covering each other, choking the enemy slowly and almost unstoppable.

i think the IC holds the future of IG warfare and it got great potentials

DukeRustfield
1st Aug 06, 1:36 PM
I had some replays of me losing to IG (THE HORROR!) as Eldar. But it was mostly me sucking and them being godlike. One "said" he was a former top 10 player.

I found it to be a combination of:
-RUN AWAY. You will not win ANY T0/T1 fights. Don't try.
-LP/BUNKER what you can.
-CS harrass. Take out an LP or two or builder. Retreat. Do again.
-GRENADES. If they are massed infantry, nades will murderize them.
-HAVE BUILDINGS/IC's positioned so you can always have 3 men inside providing base coverage in case of rush.
-GET TO T2 ASAP.

-At T2 it's combined arms. Sentinels are godlike and can effectively shut down any other T2 vehicle by any race. Nades can disrupt infantry well. If your micro is insane, you can do okay.

But the fact remains that for the bulk of players (like 99%), IG are woefully underpowered compared to every other race. Your margin of error is really tiny, especially against ppl who know IG weaknesses.

Troubleshooter
1st Aug 06, 2:00 PM
@Epilon: Its not a simple answer really.. IG start to hit a good stride in tier 1.5 after upgrades... if you have the enemy on the run, you can stay in 1.5 longer than if you are stuck in a mexican-stand-off.

Giving players an artificial time to tech to tier 2 like - say - before 6 minutes might stunt an otherwise successful offensive move for fear of losing out on tech. On the other hand, if players always shoot for 6 minutes, then faster teching armies will mow them down with early land-speeders/falcons and the like.

Its pretty situational... and something you cant really teach - people have to learn to read a situation and make good decisions about when to tech. I am notorious for taking too long to tech... so perhaps I am not the best person to ask about that :D

@DatonKallandor : Shadow has a pretty good desctiption about the commie dynamic, so I will refer you to him. The main post is meant to address the most basic IG game mechanics that players should get familiar with - CC-commies, deathstars, and hero spam fall outside the range of what I was trying to get across... they are specilist tactics that more experienced players can toy with, but fot the vast majority of IG players who cant figure out how to make the army work in 1.5, the post is inteded to get their feet under them before frustration sets in.

@Shadow: Read the above about advanced strats :p Bunker rushing and the like are fun, but highly gimmiky (i would know). They work only to a point and cost you troops that you will need for more than manning guns. Not to say that I dont like doing it -- I really REALLY do... but until players get the hang of keeping an IG force together in tier 1, gimmik builds should be left for later.

I could go into specific builds and tactics that I have used with success - like massed psykers + kasyrkin w/o mech support... econ builds... 5 squad rushes... and the like, but they dont fit with the theme of the post which is just to nail down a good basic skill set that IG players should be familiar with.

Now... if anyone (*looks for sir nick*) would like to provide me with some numbers on IG upgrades and thier effects, I can work them in to the main post with some general advice and put this thing to bed. Unless anyone sees some glaring flaw in the post that absolutely must go, I will let live in the tactica unless/until we get some balance adjustment from Relic OR some new conventional wisdom pops up.

@Duke: you got alot of posts on IG, you want to put together a quote for the perls-o'-wisdom section? Something detailed but broad enough that it applies to more than a specific situation?

Blink
1st Aug 06, 2:15 PM
So would you say being beaten by IG as any other race means you suck poopiehead? :O

Hive_Node
1st Aug 06, 2:16 PM
I have a pretty good rush if you want to hear it just ask.

tweekerninjoo
1st Aug 06, 2:30 PM
where's the 1.5 eldar version of this post ;)
My automatch score went from 1300 to, uh.....well I havn't won any games I don't think........

ImmortalChaos
1st Aug 06, 7:18 PM
I dont have a herospam replay done by myself that worked, although I have gotten it to work. I do recall one where Duke pulls it off in the beginning of a FFA.

No, its not a 1v1, but they are completely uninterupted long enough for Duke to win the map control from a SM player.

Here (http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=97761) it is. It also shows some handy tips on winning a mass T4 situation!

SirNick
1st Aug 06, 9:02 PM
Glad to throw in a few numbers to aid discussion, because numbers are neat and help us to understand the game better.

First things first -- as a handy reference, everybody needs to bookmark Slow_Runner's and Excedrin's DoW reference sites from my signature. Now. This will make things easier in the future for number-crunching.

In particular, take note of build-times and perhaps damage per hit. When you've got the game-timer on and you've just hit Tier 2 and need to know how long you need to pull back to get that Basilisk out, this is where you'd want to look.
By the way, it's going to be 1:15 after Tier 2 completes at the minimum with everything built instantly after the previous bit finishes to get that first Basilisk out.

There's a lot of things here, so enjoy thumbing through them. This is mostly concerned with IG's Tiers 1 and 2, so go elsewhere for now for your Kasrkins and Ogryns. :)

********Here's some data on vanilla Guardsmen.

150 HP, 100 morale, 20 second build time for squad of 4, 7 second reinforce. That reinforce time is important to know, especially since just about everything besides Reapers and Space Marines (of both flavors) reinforce quicker than Guardsmen and don't die as quickly.

They have 0.5 HP/second regeneration, 3 morale/second regeneration. Morale armour is 0.5, meaning that listed morale damage you might see in weapons stats is cut by 50%. For reference, most units in other races have 0.5 morale armour too and have on the order of 7-10 morale/second regeneration rates.

They break at 0 morale, unbreak at 30 morale, and must spend a minimum of 12 seconds broken.

Every dead Guardsmen will reduce morale by 30 in-game.

Commisars boost Guardsmen morale by 200, boost their health regeneration by 2.5 up to the value of 3 HP/second, and do not affect morale regeneration rate. If a Commisar squad is broken, it ain't going to un-break any faster than a vanilla squad. Same goes for any other attachment, though.

Priests boost each Guardsman's HP by 100, boost the squad's morale by 400, ups speed by 33%, and boosts damage of each squad member's weapon by 50%.

Psykers don't boost any stats on Guardsmen when they are attached, but they are detectors of cloaked units. Strip Soul and Lightning Arc do morale damage to the squad, though, so detach your Psyker to use those spells, then re-attach him if you don't want to break your Guardsmen.

Each attachable officer requires 25 seconds to build. The Psyker add-on to the HQ requires 30 seconds, and the Priest add-on requires 10 seconds. You can have three of any officer max.

Sergeants have 200 HP, cost 55/15 and require 15 seconds to build. They add 35 HP to the squad and 50 morale. Otherwise they're the same as a vanilla Guardsman.
********Techpriest Enginseer Numbers
Techpriest Enginseers have 310 HP and cost 75/0 and 20 seconds to build. The long build-time makes them difficult to replace. You can have a maximum of three Enginseers. They have 300 morale, but have 0.0 morale armour, which means they do not take any morale damage from any attack. This means that they can never break. They are armed with Power Axes and Laspistols, but these are ineffective as main offence against most targets besides light infantry.

They repair buildings and vehicles at 60 HP/second, at 75% of the listed cost. This is the highest repair rate for a builder in the game. The balancing factor is that no building or vehicle other than the HQ or Baneblade can have more than one repairer on it. The HQ can have up to three repairers, as can the Baneblade. So, don't double up your repairing with your Enginseers; you won't receive any further benefit unless it's your HQ or Baneblade.

Techpriest Enginseers have Commander armor, instead of infantry_low armor like most builders, so they are a bit more resilient than most troops. However, concentrated fire will bring them down quickly, and they are often in the line of fire due to repairing buildings and vehicles. When possible, preserve Enginseers, especially when Tiering up when you cannot replace them.********Upgrades Numbers

Death before Dishonor is 75/15, takes 20 seconds, gives 15 HP and 100 morale, and boosts morale regeneration rate up to 6 morale/second. This is a priority research in that there is no other way to boost morale regeneration rate of Guardsmen besides this research.

Body Armor is 100/50, takes 45 seconds, adds 50 HP to each Guardsman and 150 HP to the Sergeant. That's it.

Uncommon Valor is 100/100, costs 60 seconds. It boosts Command squad size to 5 members, and boosts the HP of all members of the Command Squad by 100. This combined with the Priest's HP buff make for durable commanders.

Will of the Emperor is also 75/15, 20 seconds. It boosts HP by 25 and morale by 150. You may want to get DbD first because DbD boosts morale regeneration rate at the expense of less of a boost to HP and morale.

A fully Sergeant'd, upgraded Guardsman will have 150+15+25+35+50 HP, bringing him to 275 HP total. He will also have 100 + 100 + 150 + 50 = 400 morale.

Satellite Targeting Resolution is 100/25, 30 seconds, and boosts Lasgun and Plasma Gun ranges by 20%. This brings the range of both guns up from 27 to 32.4. For reference, 25 Range is the range of a Space Marine Bolter or LP2 gun. 30 Range is a Space Marine Plasma Gun. 35 range is a Chaos Heavy Bolter or SM HB.

Weapons Specialization is 100/50, 45 seconds, and boosts Grenade Launcher and Plasma Gun damage by 50%. The research code's value is 100%, but the cap in the game's engine prevents that bonus from being higher than 50%. It also applies to Kasrkins. This is important because Kasrkin Heavy Weapon damage was reduced in this patch, and Weapons Specialization brings that damage almost back up to 1.41 levels.

Each of the Tier 3 researches for Kasrkins and Ogryns take 60 seconds apiece. The effects are very straightforward -- Speed bumps Kasrkins up 33%, Armor boosts HP by 25%, Bayonettes boost Ogryn and Bone'ead damage by 25%. It may be worth a second Tactica to research these concurrently. Also, you need a Kasrkin or Ogryn Quarters before you can research their upgrades. As an addendum to Kasrkins and Ogryns, they require Tier 3 for their Quarters to be build in the Infantry Command, but when those quarters are built you can continue to produce Kasrkins or Ogryns regardless of tech level.********Imperial Guard Command Squad Tidbits

The CS General takes 23 seconds to build at 120/25, and 20 seconds at 100/25 to reinforce if killed. He has 450 HP.

The Commisar takes 25 seconds to reinforce, has 375 HP, and is the cheapest at 80/40. He's the best shooter besides the General, and second-best at CC, doing about 80-85% of the damage of a Priest. A Commisar does about 50% of the damage a General would do. His strength is high HP and quick reinforce time.

The Psyker takes 35 seconds to reinforce at 100/50. He has 250 HP. He does about half the damage of the Commisar in both melee and shooting.

The Priest takes 40 seconds to reinforce at 90/40. He has 250 HP as well. He boosts all members of the CS, including himself, with 100 extra HP, 33% more speed, and 50% more damage. This does not stack multiple times for multiple Priests. He has no ranged damage, but does massive CC damage.********Tidbits about killing things as IG

Guardsmen Lasguns do 5-6 damage to infantry at 50% accuracy standing, 30% on the run, with 0.5 seconds to reload. They do perhaps 3-4 damage per hit to Commanders and 4-5 damage to heavy_high classed infantry like Terminators.

Grenade Launchers for Guardsmen cost 20/15, take 20 seconds per Launcher to build, and have a max range of 45 (greater than SM Heavy Bolters!). They reload every 3 seconds. There's a minimum range of 15, as a warning, and have a setup time of 1 second.

Grenade Launchers, as a weapon, do about 55-75 damage per hit to infantry_heavy_med armor, which is the class of Space Marines and the like. This is in a radius of 2.5, which for reference is about two to three troopers wide. They do a bit more to other light infantry, but only a bit more, so let's focus on the 55-75 value. Most main-line infantry in Tier 1 have 300-400 HP, give or take, and Ork Boys have about 250. A single grenade will do about 15-20% of a troop's health worth of damage per hit. Getting three or six grenades will blow massive chunks of life away quickly if the other guy doesn't skedaddle away. Post-Specialization they will do about 80-110 damage to heavy_med (rounded a bit), which is still a decent chunk of life as Tier 2 infantry tends to have 500-600 HP, and Nobs have 865 HP post-'Eavy Boy Armor.

Plasma Guns cost 35/15 and build in 15 seconds, quicker than Grenade Launchers. They have a range of 27 (32.4 after Satellite Targeting Resolution) and an accuracy of 65% standing, 45% on the move. They reload in 0.5 seconds.

As a weapon they do about 14-21 damage to heavy_med infantry per hit. For comparison, Guardsmen Lasguns do 5-6 damage per hit to most infantry armor. The strength of Plasma is its fire-on-the-run properties and fast reload time. In the span of three seconds that a Grenade Launcher is reloading after a shot, a Plasma Gun has shot six times. Plasma Guns also reinforce five seconds quicker than Grenade Launchers and do far, far better building damage. Post-Specialization they do about 20-35 damage per shot (rounded down) to infantry_heavy_med armor.

An attached Priest to a Guardsman squad boosts damage per hit by 50%. This means that Grenade Launchers do ~80-110 damage pre-Specialization, ~120-165 afterwards to infantry_heavy med, while Plasma Guns do 20-35 damage pre-Specialization, 30-53 damage post-Specialization. Considering the reload of 0.5 seconds on the Plasma Gun, a Priest'd Plasma'd squad is very dangerous. However, just four Priest'd Specialization'd Grenades will kill a single Bionics'd Space Marine from far beyond the range of the SM's Heavy Weapons.

For reference on combining firepower with Curse of the Machine Spirits, Grenades do about 50% less damage to infantry_heavy_high (the armor class that the vehicle is changed to) and Plasma Guns do about 10% less damage.********IG Vehicle Production Logistics

Each Mech Bay takes 45 seconds to build with one builder and 30 seconds to build with two builders. Each vehicle depot that you add requires 15 seconds, with the Leman Russ Depot requiring 30 seconds. Once a depot is added, you can continue to produce vehicles even if you are deteched, but you cannot add more depots if you lose your Tier 2. Chimeras can also always be built regardless of tech level.

Chimeras, Sentinels, and Hellhounds require 20 seconds to build. Basilisks and Leman Russes require 30 seconds to build.

Building multiple Mech Bays, in addition to added vehicle cap, is a good idea because it lets you build two vehicles at once, economy willing.

IG Vehicle Damage Output

Chimeras do about 50 damage per hit to everything, 1-second reload, and have 50% accuracy. Their side guns do perhaps 40-45 damage to most targets except vehicles and buildings, which are about 20-odd damage per hit apiece. The side guns are typically not worth using as a result.

Sentinels do, as a roundabout figure, about 450-500 damage per shot to light and medium vehicles (that is, everything but Kans, Land Raiders, and Baneblades). They have 80% accuracy even on the move, reload in 3 seconds, and have 40 range. They do reasonable damage to commanders (~70 per shot) and building_light (Waaagh! Banners, LPs, Generators), at about 150 damage per shot. You want to have Sentinels operate in pairs or triplets to maximize damage per shot, since Sentinels die quickly without doing much damage when alone or when sent in one at a time.

Hellhounds do very low damage per hit, about 15 or so per hit to most infantry at 50% accuracy twice a second. Their strength is in doing damage over a large, large radius (a radius of 10, about 2 times larger than a Basilisk shot). They won't kill things quickly, but they will kill an entire squad at the same time. This is a good thing because the squad will not have a chance to reinforce quickly. Again, you will want to work your Hellhounds in pairs or triplets both to cover one anothers's minimum ranges, and to increase killing speed. A single Hellhound will take over a full minute to kill a Nob, but three Hellhounds will roast the squad in about 20 or so seconds.

Basilisks specialize in doing large damage per shot. They do ~175-375 damage per shot to infantry_heavy_med armor, killing a Space Marine about every 2 or so hits. They do about 210-450 damage per hit to infantry_heavy_high armor, killing a Terminator in about five hits on average. They do damage in a radius of 5 and reload in 6 seconds, with very high scatter on their shots. They have a maximum range of 120 and a minimum range of 10, so on a 257-sized map such as Biffy's Peril or Fallen City a single Basilisk can cover nearly the entire map if it is parked in the middle. They will very likely kill your own Guardsmen in a single shot or two if you're lucky, so be very wary of that. Their Heavy Bolters do high damage per shot to infantry, about 55-65, at 50% accuracy and 1 second reload, but have a VERY short range of 15, about spitting distance. Don't rely on them to kill things with those Heavy Bolters.
The Earthshaker Round special ability costs 200/200 to use. The Basilisk will take 10 seconds to prepare the shot before firing, and there is a 20-second wait after the shot before you can use it again. Its damage is done in a radius of 8 and has the same max range as the regular Earthshaker Cannon, 120. Its base damage is 2000-2800, but against most targets, including vehicles and all buildings, the actual damage is 1000-1400. Against infantry_heavy_med and monster_med, the damage is 700-980. Against infantry_heavy_high (Terminators, PSMs, Tier 3 Nobs, etc.), the damage is 500-700, and against Commander units the damage is 400-560.

There is an additional property to the earthshaker_round ability in that it adds 75/75 to the cost of firing the Earthshaker Cannon on the Basilisk. I would imagine that this is where the "Basilisk Bug" of regular shots costing power and requisition comes from. Unconfirmed?
Leman Russes do 330-430 damage a shot with a 2.5 second reload, at 60 range and 70% accuracy. Their Heavy Bolters do about 40-70 damage per shot to infantry with a 1-second reload and 50% accuracy, and very little damage to other targets, but their range is 35. Leman Russ Heavy Bolters don't have tracers, but they are firing. Since their range is far beyond their own line of sight, you will want spotters for them so that they can stay out of the line of fire.********The Vindicare Assassin

The Vindicare Assassin shoots things that are not buildings or vehicles for 1100-1300 damage apiece every 7 seconds at 80% accuracy. The Scope boosts that figure up to 1650-1950 damage per shot for a full 15 seconds. This damage range also applies to monster_high, so Squiggoths and Bloodthirsters are prime targets for the Assassin. Vehicles struck by Curse of the Machine Spirits are prime targets for the Assassin as well. He is very spammable at a 100/50 cost and 25 second build time. He also does very good damage to light buildings in melee.********

So, hope that all this helps a bit for getting a feel for how much firepower to throw in a given situation and how long it takes to amass it. I'm sure that there's more that's missing, but this should be a good start. Eventually I'll get around to Tier 3 and Tier 4's Baneblade as well.

EDIT: Earthshaker Round ability for Basilisks added under IG Vehicles, potential personal bias subtly removed, Kasrkin/Ogryn Quarters deteching note added in the Tactica Upgrades section. Bonus notes about all attachable commanders and Techpriest Enginseers! Continue to shout out as needed. Thanks all.

The_Guardman
2nd Aug 06, 1:47 AM
- I am curious to know the Earthshaker's stats... 600+ damage IIRC and area range...10?
- Basilisk range is 120, whit a minimal of 10.
- Mechbay allow to build Chimerae too ever if deteched.
- IC allow to build KK and Ogryns ever if Deteched, if you reserched them, but not standard IGs.

Sekhura
2nd Aug 06, 2:47 AM
Probably the most informative thread I have read on these Forums.

Incredible stuff :)

--
Sek

Troubleshooter
2nd Aug 06, 6:58 AM
Thanx alot nick... now I have to find a way to merge your post with the OP unless a moderator can edit both and merge them for me ;)

I am still leery of providing advice about which upgrades to buy and when, just because there are so many play styles and situations that change what players would find to their advantage.

The only upgrade that I consider manditory is the Death Before Dishonor - it basically makes all your GM tier 1 (though weak) units rather than tier 0 units (especially weak).

Arkandadas ... can you help out on the merge? If not I will play cut/paste later and get it buttoned up.

Sovereign
2nd Aug 06, 12:21 PM
You forgot the most important part of the guide!

How to cope with losing all the time:

Friends, we of the IG must learn to accept defeat as anyone with half a brain capable of using the attack move command will beat you. Thus, it is recommended that IG players do not have any sort of heart condition, high blood pressure, vulnerability to seizures, or other maladies that can be set off by extreme anger.

----------------------------------------------

Anyway, what have we learned from this guide? As Blink suggested, anyone who loses to IG during this patch does indeed suck. There is no way you should lose to an IG player. Given the stats provided to us by Sir Nick, we now know that the following are pointless / waste of cash:

Commisars (especially in tier 1)
Body Armor upgrade (50 hitpoints? When the enemy deals more than that per hit to the guardsman usually?)
Commisars (in Command Squad)
Chimeras (false damage advertisement, transporting useless, waste of money)
Sentinel / Hellhound (only useful in triplicate, which is LOTS of money, money that GM absorb for upgrades and reinforcements. Easily chewed up by enemy vehicles / AT)
Basilisks (not advertised, but losing money per shot is annoying given how expensive IG units are.)
Baneblade (half the guns seem to not work, waste of cash)

I'd like to know the damage of IG building weapons, since they don't seem to do as they should vs the appropriate enemy. And is there a difference between having a fully upgraded guardsman squad bunkered vs a techpriest? If not, then there is NO reason to even bunker your men, since bunkering eliminates a good portion of your firepower. It is also a dumb idea since the buildings have nearly NO range.

Really, there is no hope in tier 1, barely any hope in tier 2. Hope lies in tier 3 with kasrkins, ogryns, leman russes, and the vindicare assassin (which no IG player knows how to use since we never REACH TIER 3 IN A MATCH) Too bad in Tier 3 terminators and PSM arrive to clamp down on whatever hope you had in reaching Tier 3.

Want to know how to win as IG?

There is an easy way to win as IG. First, you click on the RACE button, and change your race to something else than IG. That way, you stand a better chance against the enemy, and, if the enemy is IG, you win easy!

ImmortalChaos
2nd Aug 06, 1:18 PM
Commisars (especially in tier 1)
Body Armor upgrade (50 hitpoints? When the enemy deals more than that per hit to the guardsman usually?)
Commisars (in Command Squad)
Chimeras (false damage advertisement, transporting useless, waste of money)
Sentinel / Hellhound (only useful in triplicate, which is LOTS of money, money that GM absorb for upgrades and reinforcements. Easily chewed up by enemy vehicles / AT)
Basilisks (not advertised, but losing money per shot is annoying given how expensive IG units are.)
Baneblade (half the guns seem to not work, waste of cash)


Ehem, commies do very good damage melee T1, and are the only thing that stops your men running like furry animals untill you have DbD.

Omg, no wonder you are losing if you aren't getting body armour.

Commisar in the CS has the highest health in the squad. He does almost as much damage as the prsist, and has high shooting damage. The strongest CS combo is preist commie.

Chimaras do high damage, and in a pack, they bring down everything quickly.

And, you cant say that stuff you have to buy in pacs isnt good, because the other guy has to spend just as much money on what your pack is pwning.

Basislicks dont lose money per shot every time. I for one have never had the bug, and i believe it noly happens when you use a lot of earthshaker rounds. Plus they do fucking uber damage. 1-2 basis is all it takes to remove a huge infantry advantage the other team migh have had.

Baneblade is probably the 2nd best uber for actual fighting. His disruption is just excelnt, and had high durability. Plus 3 builders can work on him at a time.

Get your facts straght man, IG isn't as bad as orks were in 1.41.

Hiroshi_Tea
2nd Aug 06, 1:27 PM
sovereign, you make me depressed
that's a very pessimistic attitude you're weilding
ha!

well
IG might be difficult to play, but they are seriously not beyond hope.
people just need some adjusting and skill

and my pity for the ork had completely diminished.
i loath them now

The_Guardman
2nd Aug 06, 1:45 PM
Sovereign, it is better if you change played race or your attitude. IG is in bad shape, but not as bad as you say.

Briarus
2nd Aug 06, 1:52 PM
Great work!!!

i looked at the stats for a fully loaded chimera back in 1.41 and it looked like it did comprable damage to the leman though the cost was more when you included the troops. is this still true? was it ever true? or did i read the dps wrong?

fuggles
2nd Aug 06, 1:55 PM
Out of curiosity, what would you do against a warlock rush as I gather that the main threat for IG is losing a squad, then entangle must screw you right up?

Romanov77
2nd Aug 06, 1:58 PM
This is really well done, but also shows how pathetic is IG in 1.5

Troubleshooter
2nd Aug 06, 2:13 PM
So would you say being beaten by IG as any other race means you suck poopiehead? :O On some maps IG have a real advantage over most races because of the uber build time and tier 0 invulnerablity of Tech priests.... on other maps IG hit tier 2 and are neigh unstoppable with bassilisk fire support, if you can get there.

Losing to IG means you didnt tac-mass :p Otherwise, a properly run IG player is only slightly handicapped vs. other races - and as usual the first 30 seconds and cap order will generally decide the game anyway barring mirrors. (in 1v1) And as I mentioned.. in team matches - even with 2 IG on a team... IG really shine - its just 1v1 on 2 player maps where IG take it in the posterior.


Out of curiosity, what would you do against a warlock rush as I gather that the main threat for IG is losing a squad, then entangle must screw you right up? Bunkercreep... keep alternating sides you attack on and put turrets down to punish any lax pathing. Tech to GL's and stay in range of your turrets/bunkers. On maps like shrine, if you can keep your LP's, you will beat a worlok rush.... Rangers are the real problem... but yeah, losing a squad is almost always a crippling event for IG due to the high cost of replacement.

@Sovergn: Immortal already put the smackdown on ya... I just want to point out that you VASTLY underestimate both commisars and Chimeras.

SirNick
2nd Aug 06, 2:21 PM
My OP edited to reflect things pointed out by Trouble and The_Guardman - Earthshakers, upgrade bias = nono, deteching notes.

I checked the earthshaker_round ability code and it's got a bit where it adds 75/75 to the cost of firing the regular Earthshaker Cannon (the weapon on the Basilisk, not the ability), perhaps that's the source of the bug?

Also, I too wish to vouch for Commisars, especially in Tier 1. Their melee and health properties are very valuable, and given the note I was quoted on in Troubleshooter's OP in this thread about how being in melee reduces ranged damage taken and vastly reduces morale damage taken, an attached Commisar in a squad doing melee will make a large impact on the longevity of the Guardsman squad. Regenerating 3 HP/second in Tier 1 where all other non-hero units in the game regenerate 0.5 or 1 HP/second is a very powerful thing.

Thing with Chimeras is that a fully-loaded Chimera indeed has something like 140-180 DPS to things, but the damage is spread out over seven guns likely to be shooting seven things, and even a vanilla 4-man Guardsman squad will do more DPS standing outside the Chimera. The guns are a neat feature if you are transporting things, but not something you want to make the centerpiece of your offense. Techpriests are also too valuable and too few to count as a reliable gunner for Chimeras.

Using Chimeras to transport Ogryns to go base-bashing is a very, very effective thing to do, also.

Hmm. Off to go edit my OP with Techpriest data.

EDIT: Done with that!

Anyhow, I want to emphasize that these numbers I provide are merely numbers for the Imperial Guard alone. There's a lot more numbers out there for the four (soon to be six!) other races, and there's a lot of interaction between them. Please use this data as reference for shaping build order timing and gauging what firepower you'll be able to inflict on a Defiler compared to a Dreadnought, for example.

optimal_prism
2nd Aug 06, 3:09 PM
I gots a question. Wont having nades for your guards damage your CS in early tier if you try to atatck. While Cs is CC'ing and you attack with nades, your CS will get knocked back and get friendly fire dps.

Hiroshi_Tea
2nd Aug 06, 3:21 PM
mostly now, the CS is set on ranged stance. to avoid the gernades

it's Dukerustfield's coined "deathstar". it usually consists of a priest and comissar in addition to the general.
and once the uncommon valor is researched, it's three commies and a priest. it has enough DPS to rape any infantry that wanders too close. and if they try to engage them in cc, it does even more damage, though less then all out priests.

and due to a odd number thing, the "deathstar" is more effective against LPs then an all priest group.

Troubleshooter
2nd Aug 06, 7:00 PM
I actually dont worry about the nades hitting the CS... the effect not so noticable that you need to sweat it unless you are talking like 12 nades all hitting in the area of the CS... generally you just target the squad the CS is NOT tieing in CC anyway, so unless you are talking about LP takedown, Nades FF does not really factor most of the time.

Hey nick...

They break at 0 morale, unbreak at 30 morale, and must spend a minimum of 12 seconds broken.

Every dead Guardsmen will reduce morale by 30 in-game.

I thought it was 60 morale loss per Squaddie... ???

SirNick
2nd Aug 06, 7:12 PM
That's the coded value for morale loss, indeed. However, that damage is reduced by morale armour, so the net effect is that only 30 morale is lost in-game.

Other races have a value of 40 for losing a member, but because of that morale armour thing they only lose 20 morale when a member dies.

It's easily seen by watching a few replays in slow-motion.

This is a thing that's been floating around since DukeRustfield made that post a month and a half ago about morale rates for Tier 1 units, and it was found that IG Guardsmen had a morale_death rating of 60 instead of 40 like everyone else. By the time it was found that it's reduced by morale armour like every other morale damage value in the game, the 60 morale/death figure had spread like wildfire.

Troubleshooter
2nd Aug 06, 7:26 PM
Thanx for clearing that up - though it still seems like my squads break with 2 casualties - but that could just be the morale effects of the weapons shooting them too. (and the fact that I am a lousy tech-monkey and forget my tactia :p)

Unless anyone else has a good reason to hold this back.. I am happy with the main post now... its a hideous beast of a post now - there is literally a ton of information there.

This could be the most well documented - BROKEN race to date :jig:

Now if relic would just release a hot fix to make the damn thing obsolete :D

valiant_rhino
2nd Aug 06, 10:37 PM
Always had trouble playing w/ IG- thx for the tips, nice job.

The_Guardman
3rd Aug 06, 6:18 AM
Great Nick :)
Missing:
- recharge time of Assasin scope
- HP of attachable heroes (according to Slow_Runner they should be different from CS heroes)

Out of topic:
is the DR morale damage changed from 1.41 to 1.5 patch? They seem to broke SM more easly, despite the damage nerf.

DatonKallandor
3rd Aug 06, 10:08 AM
Shooter, what would you, as expert, recommend as quick hotfix?


Daton

BeserkWraithlor
3rd Aug 06, 12:11 PM
Very nice guide, and I appreciate the efforts you make, so that IG would still have a chance in multiplayer. Great job trouble, as always.

Troubleshooter
3rd Aug 06, 1:34 PM
Shooter, what would you, as expert, recommend as quick hotfix?

I consider myself more of a coach than expert - experts tend to come with higher auto scores... if I were to call myself an expert at anything its playing support to experts. I tend to find my best game in covering for hard teching allies, or doing combination strikes in team matches... or secureing mapcontrol for my team - this is part of why I am only about 1350 with IG in automatch - no allied strats or wierd builds to play with - just raw agression.

BUT! If I were going to suggest a hot-fix (read: simple to implement) for IG to shore up their tier 0/1 problems, it would come in the form of cheaper initial squads... say in the 120 neighborhood - to allow the IG player to get to 10 pop of GM quickly and reinfoce those squads to a level that puts IG tier 0 on par with light tier 1 engagemnts while the IG player techs. IG need to be able to at least hold thier 1/2 of the map to get their defenses up and tech started... as it is they struggle on some maps to maintain their economy while working up to tier 1 units. And unlike elite races (SM) IG units cant bypass LP's and harrass deep in enemy territory since their units cost too much to lose, and are too weak if caught by LP2's or enemy units.

The reduction in cost wont change the weak nature of the tier 0 IG unit - thus balance is maintained in team matches as well as 1v1 - it just allows the IG player to opt for 2 possible build orders - mass heavy tier 0, or balanced tier 1. As it is you cant hope to win most of the time if you rely on tier 0 at all.

I have heard from others that Relic is considering such things as increased sight range on IG. I would like to see that too, but I fear what increased sight range + Grenade Launchers and/or Bassilisks would do...

Either IG need better starting morale (potentially IMBA in team matches) or a cost reduction to allow better tier 0 performance.

smerles
3rd Aug 06, 4:50 PM
Hello Troubleshooter. Thank you for your very helpful guide! Exactly what I as a newbee searched for.
Am I allowed to translate it into german and post it to the forums of dawnofwar.de?

ShadowWatch
3rd Aug 06, 4:53 PM
i think if they get an initial squd would be good..

the problem i see it is if he enemy use anything to cap you outside post theres 0 chances for you to get it back without bleed youself white. no matter how many guradsmen you pump out, they won't do a dime in anyform of offence. so i'd rather have something like 10 second or so time to make sure IG can secure that important outpost

DukeRustfield
3rd Aug 06, 5:00 PM
Initial squads worked very poorly. Especially on tight maps. IG do good dmg despite their crap crapitude and we don't need to encourage any more rushing.

Cheaper troops are definately in order. Scaling upgrades as well. I don't like the line of sight increase because it gives you a reason to attack ground and have scouters.

Troubleshooter
3rd Aug 06, 5:34 PM
Am I allowed to translate it into german and post it to the forums of dawnofwar.de? No...
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Just kidding... Absolutely man, go to town. Hey, what is the german translation for the word "team"?

I hope the guide works for you.
Cheers!

optimal_prism
3rd Aug 06, 6:32 PM
from what I know
team=Mannschaft

also as a good hotfix , how bout getting 5 IG when you first make a squad, instead of 4 and put the req cost to 145.

Also really the gens need to be a little cheaper like 145-150.

Currently you need power for every upgarde and tactica and CS and nades and sarges and to get to t2 you need 150 power while every other race needs 100.
Also the gens dont give enough power.

Hiroshi_Tea
3rd Aug 06, 6:44 PM
cheap gens and add that to the low 100/55 upgrade cost for LP2s?
it's not really a good idea
but yeah
i certainly feel the pain of the power hungry IG constantly
rather then a reduction in gen cost, why not lower the cost of the things that we usually pour power into?
like reduce the power cost of gernades and researches marginally. it certainly would add to great effect.

ShadowWatch
3rd Aug 06, 7:29 PM
Initial squads worked very poorly. Especially on tight maps. IG do good dmg despite their crap crapitude and we don't need to encourage any more rushing.

Cheaper troops are definately in order. Scaling upgrades as well. I don't like the line of sight increase because it gives you a reason to attack ground and have scouters.

can i ask where you got that inital squad work pooly conclusion?

rushing? with what?? 5 full guards can be easily throw back by 2 sm+ one fc and that is assuming the sm don't touch you with his troops before you got your five.

also the reinforce rate got nerfed to hell, they simply don't reifoce fast enough for the purpose of rushing.

also, tell me what if the other side build a turret??

Akranadas
3rd Aug 06, 7:42 PM
Very Well done, and with Troubleshooters blessings, this is off to the Tactica.

Lord_Ulrik
11th Aug 06, 10:35 AM
Bah, hate ya troubledaddy :P ;)
Since i played ProMod i cant win vs IG anymore, guess part of that is your guide.
1 thing: First vehicle should be an basi and not a senti, imho. These damn *censorded by poster* lisks are the pure pain. You cant kill them, and you cant kill any other stuff, ´cause of them.
Psyker in the CS and even the single ones do a great job vs any vehicle, who needs Sentis anymore ?? :D