Tiger too strong?

[Durlag]

Hi folks,

Had a game yesterday which made me think of the Tiger balance. My tiger kicked 2 Shermans (one with that rocket upgrade), 2 rifleman squads (upgraded with sticky bombs and using them) and an engineer Squad all on his own at the same time. I have to say that i was microing so that the shermans were just shooting on my front armor but the rifleman squads were throwing grenades and sticky bombs at the back armor. So i owned alle these units just with one Tiger (ok he had some kind of 10 hp left) and if i summarize the manpower values --> 1 Tiger is some kind of 900 manpower

The 2 shermans are 920 Manpower and some fuel, 540 Manpower for the 2 rifleman squads and 140 for the engineer squad
Thats 1600 vs 900 and the 900 won

So would you say it was ok because i was microing my Tiger like hell and could win because of that or is the Tiger too strong?

Greetz Durlag

[Tiresias]

I think strength wise they're all right, if there's an issue it's with cost imo

[shadowcreaper]

yer cost issues ,the tiger equal is the 900 manpower allei tank with tank general.

[DatonKallandor]

Fighting a Tiger head-on is not smart anyway. Sticky bombs will kill the engines - then it's a simple case of run away and artillery.


Daton

[Panzeh]

The tiger and storm squad for 1000mp is a steal. The tiger will win a 1v1 against a pershing. As the tiger's veterancy goes up it gets a lot better against the pershing.

The sherman for 420/90 is not a very good deal. 90 oil is a lot for a tank whose only advantage is questionable mobility.

[kanegz]

The 2 shermans and 2 rifleman squads and a engineer squad still lose to 1 tiger?
Use tactics man.....:slow: hit his ass:boohoo:

[ÜberJumper]

I think the German command tree ability for the tiger should be like 500 fuel (in addition to manpower).

[SACSlym]

It's arguably a battle of whit, if you can maneuver faster, trick, bait, and flank, you can always beat a tiger. The only instance in which there was no win was yesterday when me and a friend faced 8 Tigers in a row (instances of 2 Tigers per attack + 4 Ostwinds + 6 Stugs and only one enemy player? :wtf: ) Still need to look at the replay and see how he pulled that one off.

[Tiresias]

500 fuel is a bit much I think, 250 I reckon

[TheLoneKnight]

I have no problem killing Tigers defensively (antitank guns with penetrator shells, mines or demolitions can do the job quite nicely), but I have a serious problem trying to kill them offensively. Just last night I was in a 1v1 and my opponent - somehow - managed to continue putting out tigers each time I killed them. He didn't have much of another army, but I did try to figure out what counters I could use against them.

Tank Destroyers are fairly effective in that they can drive around the Tigers faster than their main turret can move, but their effectiveness seems to fall extremely fast when there are multiple tanks in the field.

Stickybombs are less than ideal, as well, since the tank can simply back away from them while shooting your infantry (and I've found that Tigers are unsettlingly good at killing even infantry, compared to the likes of the Panzer or Panther), and demolitions, mines and traps like that again are defensive techniques.


So what do you do when you need to take the fight to the enemy? Do you simply go around the Tiger/s and let them crawl up and shoot your attack force from behind, or what?

[hotdrop]

Ha i just logged in to post the same thing but apperently you guys already beat me. Last night i was having an imposibly time killing the tigers. The guy had like 3 or 4 of them and there was just nothing i could do against them. Even when i singled one out he would be able to kill 2 of my shermans and a ranger company for every tank i killed and sometimes he would ge away with a sliver of life and repair back to 100% any way. It would take like 4 or 5 sticky bombs from behind to kill one tank and that was more then enough time to get some support in for him to wipe out my company or just get away. IMO the tank is way too strong defensively because the allied units dont have anything that can deal with tanks very well. The only 3 things that work are anti tank guns that can be killed in one tank shot (300 a piece btw) and they take like 5-6 shots from the front to kill a tank. Mines mines work ok(ive had a lot of issues planting em in contested areas and they are quite expensive as well). Rangers are alos quite expensive and you really have to micro them well but 1v1 they can take one out, but when there are 2 or more then your screwed. I think what allies just need a good way to counter the tiger tank. (like maybe allow enineers to take tanks over or disable them if they can get close), or at least a allied anti vehicle squad thats not based off command points like rangers are.

[shadowcreaper]

i think tigers are way to fast i found nearly being out run by one when i was in sherman--.--

like thelongknight said offencively i find it very hard to kil them. sometimes best way is art but art doesnt auto- shoot if enermy in range--.-- it like DOW:WA basalisk when WA first released it dint shoot enermy who in range and it can see automaticaly, not until patch came out did the art start auto fireing.

hopefuly COH art wil have a patch so thus if seen art will shoot atuomaticaly, but the main thing that is anoying is, if you click " attack " button on a enermy unit that is in range+ in sight your art doesnt attck it --.-- you have to use that anoying little " speical" attck button then place it over area then it fires.... be far better if they just let attack butten do just what it ment for, and leave that special one for a "earthshaker" stlye barrage.

[Thefish]

no i have had my first encounter with a tiger i can chime in

i think historically speaking the tiger is about right, maybe lower the turret traverse speed a little and make it move slower. however balance wise relic should think about significantly increasing the cost of the tiger.

not 5 minutes ago i found myself having to fend of 2-5 tigers every 10 minutes, which is a little excessive, expecially concidering i would need 3 shermans per tiger to stand a chance at beeting them as well as masses of infantry.

so yeah relic you got the power of the sherman just about spot on but up the price for god's sake!

[Tranj]

I popped a tiger the other way after falling horribly behind. Trying to play on the phone isn't a good idea. I had 3 squads with sticky bombs and was having the problem of the tiger backing away, so I stuck a greyhound behind the tiger...three sticky bombs popped it nicely (it had marginal damage pre-bombs). I felt really good about my ingenuity until I realized my opponent owned 80% of the map and I had about 60 VP points left.

[FalseMyrmidon]

Historically German tanks raped Allied tanks.

[Reppyboyo]

I find the Tigers power is right, but as said before, the price needs upping.

[hotdrop]

right but in the interest of balance either german tanks need a nerf or we need a way to counter them.

[Reppyboyo]

Theres plenty of ways to counter them.
Many are in this thread.

[TheLoneKnight]

... So aside from simply blocking their escape with an armoured car and sticky bombing them, does anyone have any efficient methods of killing Tiger Tanks offensively? Like I said; Tank Destroyers would be a decent counter in a vaccuum, but unfortunately Tiger Tanks are generally accompanied by stormtroopers or other tanks.

Surely there must be some method?

[hotdrop]

Somone told me to use anti tank guns, but i dont know how well that would work. You can build 3 for the price of a tank but unfortunatly they die real fast. And no there arent any real good ways of countering those tanks, most of the sussgestions here are effective against 1 unsupported tank.

[TheLoneKnight]

Antitank guns work fine defensively, but I'm asking about offensive operations. How do you attack someone who has multiple tiger tanks (as well as the stormtroopers that go with them)?

Antitank guns are slow and need to deploy. Stickybombs can be either evaded or, in combat where tigers aren't alone, shot to death before they get close. Tank Destroyers are too fragile for straight combat and their damage and range too low to be particularily effective against more than one tank. Shermans are essentially a non-option because unless you're an Armoured Division commander with the quick replacements ability (I forget the name), they're just going to die long before they get any kills. Pershings aren't much better.

So what's the option? How can you take the fight to a blitz player who has more than one tiger tank (or a terror player who has the Tiger Ace + miscellaneous tank backup)?

[Caesar]

Why not take a cue from reality and use five tanks to out-number and out manuever the Tiger?


And I'm hearing nerf already? God, I can see it now..

Allied troops at Normandy:

"OMFG IMBA IMBA!!!111 MG42s FIER 2 FAST!!11 We need patch to nerf teh Germans guns! No one can have an advantage based on superior technology!"

[Kemita]

I don't aggree 100% with some posters about the unbalanced of the Tiger

Tiger is almost invulnerable in front armor but rear and sides are perfect targets for Anti-Tank gun.(without talking about Sticky bombs, mines, recoiless rifles, out-manouvering (sp?) with other tanks, Air attack...)

I think that trying to explain how to kill or use specific strategies in this game is pretty useless.
I feel this RTS is different to any other when we talk about strategies, there is not a "patron" to follow for everybody, you must learn and build your own strategies and get your micromanagement perfected.
This game is the perfect example of "Easy to learn hard to master".

Here is not the rock/sissors/paper as we know it from other games, it has a bigger number of choises and you have to mix and master them if you want to go somewhere in this game.

Just one thing I must remark:

If your enemy has a Tiger in the field and you don't know or don't have a plan to counter it you don't have a problem, you have two problems: The Tiger and your playstyle.

The only tip useful I can give is: Enjoy the game instead of worring about if it is balanced or not and eventually you will find yourself winning and seeing new ways to play that you couldn't see before.

To me the game seems perfectly balanced but I might be wrong. It's not my business to judge so but just my opinion.

[Bisonman80]

also historically, the US was able to mass produce shermans which were much quicker than the axis tanks. So with a large number of tanks and using tank tactics, they were able to beat the axis tanks. In this case, I find that the price of the sherman is too high, imo

[Kronos]

In WWII the American tanks were pwned by the Germans so I think its only fair that when there are Tigers around you have to use strategy to take them down, not just send in your tanks and expect that 3 Shermans must surely equal a Tiger,its only fair right!

But Tigers were expensive and complicated so took a long time to make, the Germans just couldnt keep up the rate of production as the Americans.

So I think that when its time for balancing, dont make the Tiger less powerful, just make it more trouble to build. :nod:

[TheLoneKnight]

Caesar, it is not always an option to simply outnumber Tigers 5-to-1. By manpower alone you can only get two Shermans for each Tiger he fields, and that's not including the fuel costs (180) that he doesn't need to spend.

And Kemita, I do believe that you can at least give advice on methods to defeat Tigers. Simply saying that you must learn your own way is kind of silly - as is implying that there is something inheirently wrong with my playstyle if I'm unclear on how to deal with the toughest tank in the game offensively - because I am trying to learn by asking players who have encountered them before. I am attempting to see how other players deal with them so that I can handle them more efficiently in the future.

I'm not screaming for nerfs or saying that the game is terribly unbalanced. I just haven't been able to figure out a way to deal with them without using largely stationary weapons (mines, antitank guns). Preferably a method that would allow me to take out the Tigers when there is more than one around and quickly advance without having to wait until he falls into some elaborate trap.

[Lochar]

I think the point is tho 2 shermans equal 920 pts vs 1 tiger at 900. So the costs is roughly 2 -1 but it more than likely needs 3-4 - 1.

I was watching the armor segment last night on the military channel, and they said it usually takes a squad of 4 shermans to 1 tiger. 3 basically get destroyed distracting it, while the 4th tries to flank it.

Also this is for 1 Tiger, consider a tiger with a flakpanzer that can take out a whole squad in no time, so you have a anti personnel vehicle and anti tank. Toss an engie squad in there for repairs and your set.


Also remember when you have 2 shermans going against a tiger, if you try to manuever past him and the player takes over, 1 hit from the side and your pretty much SOL. Of course you could send the 2nd sherman the other way and hope he can outrace the turret.

[Starfisher]

This comes up a lot.

Ultimately it seems the game is balanced on the hinge of who controls the map. If an Allied player controls the map early and never lets up the pressure, they should be able to prevent the German player from getting a significant amount of tanks. If they do not control the map, they will lose to upgraded German tanks as the game progresses.

The trick, as has been said, is to have either a lot more tanks than he does (controlling the map for resources) or to have him attack you.

Again, I'm still on the fence about the balance of german tanks. No one aspect of them is unbalanced, but when taken together they seem to place much more of a burden on the Allied player than the Allied player can place on the German. German tanks can come out of the factory upgraded. German tanks have more power. Germans have the Flakpanzer. Germans get Tigers.

That said, you can defeat any of those single things. German tanks coming out upgraded isn't so bad if you control enough of the map that he can't get too many tanks. German tanks having more power isn't so bad if you can get the drop on them. The Flakpanzer gets eaten by other tanks, and can be destroyed by AT guns if they have the angle. Tigers can be destroyed by four stickybombs, AT guns, etc.

The problem is when he has upgraded tanks with a flakpanzer or two and maybe a tiger. Then he just drives around anything you have and destroys it, and if you attempt to attack you have to somehow nullify the flakpanzer.

This is a deeper issue that can't be nerfed out of the game. It really seems that it is designed such that the Allied player has to win early by capturing territory with their infantry and preventing the German player from amassing tanks. So the balance issue here is whether or not the Allied player can realistically control the map effectively enough to do that, and I don't think anyone has enough experience to say that it is or isn't.

Playing Druidika will convince you that it isn't, but others aren't so difficult ;)

[Bisonman80]

Thats kind of besides the point though, starfisher. We're simply comparing the costs, power, and capabilities of the Tiger tank versus the Sherman, etc. As somebody already pointed out, 2 sherman tanks cost about as much as a Tiger, but the tiger is much stronger than those 2 shermans, even though they can maneuver around and try to flank him. Thats not the issue though, the issue is that the Tiger is too easy to produce. I've played a game where I, allies, had control of about half the map, and half of the resources. Yet the other player was able to produce 2 tiger tanks very easily, which ended up wiping out whatever shermans I threw at them, and took about 3 or 4 satchel charges to disable.

While part of that may just be that I am a noob, IMO something still needs to be done about the Tigers. I think they should either take longer to build, or be more expensive.

[Kemita]

TheLoneKnight The point is that they are comparing the strongest point of Axis (tanks) versus Ally weakest (again, tanks) on 1vs1.

We should see that one single Tiger needs 1000 manpower and it takes time to earn that Manpower unless you use 200Munitions (with Blitzkrieg) and even doing so you are stopping producing other units while waiting for the Manpower.

Again, we should see further and notice that 2 (two) anti-tank weapons with Airborne that costs only 620 and a Infantry unit with sticky bombs 270M can take out that Tiger. That's only 890M.
I don't remember how much Sticky bombs but isn't expensive and they pay back it's price in the long run, in my opinion.

It's all about the way you micromanage the situation and your units (using infantry as a bait to a mined place or use the mined place as a secure place to retreat while waiting for Sticky Bomb gets it's timer recharged or deploy AT afther using the sticky bombs that breaks engine like Mines do, one AT behind the Tiger and other Infront, with Airborne you can deploy them anywhere you have the terrain uncover 2 hits in the back with an AT and a Sticky bomb and the Tiger is no more).

AT guns can take most tanks even if they shoot in their front armor, your biggest worry is to not let the tanks get your AT guns as main targets.

[Starfisher]

They aren't built. They are called in as a commander ability.

They may be too easy to get, but comparing the cost of a sherman to the cost of a tiger is misleading and innaccurate. Shermans are not a counter for tigers. No allied tank is a counter for tigers. The only way to beat a tiger is with combined arms or a ton of allied tanks.

[trikery]

Well, airborne troops got the nerf why should tigers. Instead the tiger ace got stronger and the regular tiger stayed the same. Hence one of the Allied doctrines became next to useless, and the German doctrines got better. I can deal with tigers, as the Infantry doctrine its simply the case of having some disposable light armor preferably 2 hanging around somewhere out of the way. You dont spend much on munitions and you save. The arty barrage on the tiger wipes it out. As long as the tiger is dead you can rip everything else up with rangers & m10s. No German infantry can stand to the rangers w/ grenades and fire up holding thompsons. Maybe elite KC are the only ones. Early on if you can get a cloaked sniper to stop the MG teams, then your rifleman w/ early BAR (which should definately be your first upgrade if you go infantry) can run wild on the map. You go for their main fuel point, each map geared towards 1v1 has one. You take that and hes screwed. Therefore tanks are nullfied. and 1v1 ranked is a 500 VP game, he spends enough time trying to get back that point that its impossible to make a comeback if he does. There tiger is nullifed, dont even let him get that far.

The light armor stop is basically you flank with speed, get behind it and die. get in front of it and die. Pinned tiger, and arty barrage. GG, rangers finish tiger ace off with bazooka shots cause its still pinned anyway, and its alone cause of the arty :).

[TheLoneKnight]

Comparing costs is obviously not the best way to argue the efficiency of units, but I only mentioned it in regards to Caesar's comment on outnumbering Tigers five to one.

I do find it a little frustrating that the only effective way people seem to be able to beat Tigers offensively is with vehicle spam, though.

I guess I just need to be more aggressive early on. :(

[Andkat]

Trikery: How was the paratroop doctrine nerfed into uselessness?

[Someguy]

I think cooldown might have been nerfed a bit but they were made a bit cheaper (375 vs 400 manpower). In addition, airborne can reinforce anywhere on the field.

Supply Drops where also nerfed a bit in cooldown, 3 minutes up from 2 minutes.

It's far from useless. Plus they fixed the AT gun drop, it didn't used to drop a crew with it.

[Weavern]

The cost was increased such that he cant spam them across the map anymore :p

The tiger has its great forward armor but its still a lumbering giant. While putting a vehicle behind it might not be cost effective there are other measures you can employ. Mines are a great method if you have the advance time. Putting a group of anti tank cannons up on a hill beyond the approach path and waiting for it to come into range. Or placing them on opposite sides of where you expect to attack it such that if it goes after one of them the second one kills it.

I completely disagree with the concept of adding fuel to the tiger calling. Why should the axis be punished for having to use fuel when all those allied vehicle calls do not require fuel. Even if the manpower was upped 100-200 for the tiger it would still be there just a smiggeon or two later.

I think more of the issue revolving from combating tigers in the field is that most of the time you fight where the tiger wants you to fight. Rarely do you fight it where you want to fight it. I rarely have trouble fighting tigers but most of the time when I fight a tiger its due to me giving him far too much freedom. Constant agressing all throughout the game and vehicles and other things dont leave room for the easy acquisition of 1000 manpower or the 200 munitions to get manpower blitz.

[Someguy]

Mines are the bain of a tiger too. Usually one or two will damage the engine, then you move in the for the kill.

[Andkat]

So, this is effectively Anti-Eldar strategy in WA 1.41, yhough somewhat less severe:
1. Kill him before he tech! Rush! Rush! Rush!
2. Outnumber him despite the fact that the costs aren't disparate enough to permit it, or the cap is too low!
3. Use arcane, convulted, or micro-heavy tactics to somehow kill them! Possibly.

Praxis: Note that the request was how to OFFENSIVELY counter Tigers. Mines, AT guns, etc. qualify as defensive due to advance planning and construction/setup time requirements. He needs to beat it in unanticipated or on-the-fly locations.

[Weavern]

Any of those things listed can be used offencively if you position yourself right. A shot or two here as you advance AT cannons as he backs into a minefield yousetup behind the battle lines on the way back to his base.

Shermans, M10s both will kill a tiger. You just dont run at it head on. Which is something easier said then done. Likewise rangers, artillery strikes, bombing runs, stickybombs, greyhound mine deployment. Will stop tigers.

[Mirage Knight]

Why not reduce the Tiger's mobility by say 5% and reduce the cost of the Sherman (with a slight armour nerf) to allow a competant Allied player to be able to build 3-4 Shermans for every German player's Tiger?

The game should, to a certain extent, reflect America's ability to mass-produce the Sherman with impunity. 40,000 or so Shermans were built and used in Europe and in the Pacific by the end of the war...

[trikery]

Lets just say with 4 airborne squads & bombing run I stopped a german tank push with infantry. Now I mean tiger panthers panzers and ostwind. Also, the thing was the recoilless got nerfed and the cost got higher, the damage by the paratroopers guns got nerfed, the cost got upped from 360 to 375, and after all this the german first tier which includes the machine gun, got a huge boost and now pins instantly.
Therefore, allied airborne took a serious nerf in the patch. The Axis wont say so because they cried as much about airborne as most are about tigers now.

[Mirage Knight]

I may be an Axis player but I'm very much in favour of balance, damage consistency, and realism (in that order).

I agree that Airborne troops really did get beaten badly with the nerf stick. The M1 carbines should really be doing the same damage per shot as the M1 Garand, but with a slightly higher rate of fire and slightly lower effective range. The damage for the Recoiless Gun is about right, but the cost should have stayed where it was.

[Kemita]

A M30(?)Destroyer= 300Mp 30F(?)
Squad of Riflemen with Sticky Bombs= 270Mp
AT gun from dropped anywhere with Airborne= 310Mp


TOTAL: 880Mp 30F

This is far enough to kill a Tiger. Try to mix your troops and you will find your own personal way to do things.

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/5750/relic00000xi5.jpg

Just one tip useful for everybody:

When you use shermans try to do kill roads on enemy trops becouse they are fast for their armor and if you micromanage them well you can pass 5 infantry units under the chains of your tank without doing a single shot. A Tiger can't do that becouse it's lacks of speed.
If your enemy infantry units are in prone position you can kill them even easier just passing over them with your sherman like if nothing special was happening, it's instant kill for enemy troops.

[Rafta]

Did you ever face some tigers with support during severe lagging. The lag makes micromanagement impossible and the tigers wrecked anything I had.
Also the pathfinding problems of the tanks in general don't help much. I lost several tanks today thanks to problems for them to flank a tank.
Another issue while hunting tigers is that tanks in combat don't drive away facing the enemy tank but turn around and get killed. You can work against it by giving them a facing order but a full retreat without them turning around is nearly impossible.

Also about all this chatting about micromanaging troops to flank a tiger and so on, tigers never come alone. They always have support, so advanced flanking is nearly impossible.

Early mapcontrol in a teamgame is another chapter, it might work for 1on1 but in a teamgame with randoms it's nearly imopssible to press on early.
The tank commander doctrine is useless in multiplayer ...
My 2 cents.

[DatonKallandor]

Therefore, allied airborne took a serious nerf in the patch.

Allied airborne is the single most potent commander tree in the game. Fully upgraded it surpasses every other tree.


Daton

[dan.uk]

tigers should dominate the way they do...but they shouldn't be as mobile as they are to just zip around the map and singlehandedly stop any push your trying to make anywhere or be so easy to make I think maybe 1200~ mp would much more suit them.

I just feel that whenever these things come on the field I change from moving my units around globally and defending etc to just having to concentrate on micromanaging a vast mix of troops / tanks / commander powers to kill a single tank. And that by the time I have destroyed one he has a 2nd already on its way.

defence against them is alot easier as you can have AP AT guns + mines and then sending your tanks behind them, but trying to push against one is a nightmare if he has any kind of backup to it

[shadowcreaper]

Mines are the bain of a tiger too. Usually one or two will damage the engine, then you move in the for the kill

like he said mines great for anti- tiger and using them can make him choose a different route(witch of crouse you find out by looking at map and placing a destroyer tank "trap" in-waiting for him.

if you look at that screenshot on last page, (on same map) i used a destroyer to "lead" tiger towards my men then the road to the west of the detroyer i played another destroyer with infi unit with sticky bombs in waiting, once tiger comes down the road towards main force i hold firewith hiding force, then wait till it starts attck the main force , then flank it using the hiding units. allways works.

use initiative eg. "lead" the tiger down a one road usingbait then make sure the road is quickly mined behind tiger then rush it with men with sticky bombs, tiger retreats into mines, and blows, then is easy pickings

[Demon_Eyes]

When talking about AT guns and Tigers please remember that you must use the AP round ability (50 mu) of the AT guns, they will guarantee penetration against the tigers heavy armor.

[Starfisher]

Allied airborne is the single most potent commander tree in the game. Fully upgraded it surpasses every other tree.What the hell are you talking about? Seriously, whaaa? Are we playing the same game?

[DatonKallandor]

Fisher: Free resources and Heavy weapons? Check. Dropping AT-Guns for marginally more cost than they usually have? Check. Dropping reinforce-anywhere squads with optional AT upgrade? Check.

No other tree has the versatility and free-stuff the airborne tree has.


Daton

[hotdrop]

I like the speed nerf idea that a lot of people are suggesting that might help quite a bit especialy when you get engine damage on the tank. I thought of some other creative solutions though:

Have engine damage or thread damage disable the tank and not allow it to be moved back and retreated.

Allow engineers to use the demolition command on the the tank

Make a minimum attack range for all tank cannons.That would make troops at close range very effective against tanks w/o machine guns.

I think as of now the sticky bomb requires munitions to use, IMO that ability should be free.

[Demon_Eyes]

Airborne is an interesting and flexible tree up till mid game however they are no better than infantry doctrine in raw firepower options, cost a little more upfront and they have no way to deal with a properly entrenched german defensive line.

[shadowcreaper]

infi general gets rocket shermans whith i must say are awsome.
also the art is most nasty, yes air troop is good, but it isnt the best.

i wish i could play axis power once i get game working back.

[Starfisher]

No other tree has the versatility and free-stuff the airborne tree has.Versatility is meaningless against a methodical enemy. You can drop your people behind my lines with a 50 munitions scout and ~380MP squad, but I'll probably kill it. You might cap a point, but the lack of sticky bombs or BARs makes Airborne infantry squads actually less powerful than regular infantry, and I'd be a poor Axis player without a Flakpanzer.

Seriously... play against somene decent with Airborne, and you'll see how "versatility" doesn't really matter. The fuel and munitions are nice, but if you want to use those heavy weapons you have to lose a squad to do it, and mid/late game when you get those weapons the Axis player will have tanks.

I only reacted because you made a sweeping generalization that contradicts my own experience. I'm not a great Axis player, but 1v1 I've never lost to an Airborne player. And as an Airborne player, I only won about half the time. They don't surpass anything, as in the hands of a good player, any tree has many great options.

I think we're moving a little far afield, so if you feel the need to respond, please make a new thread. This should stay on Tigers, since they will probably be the biggest anger draw of the remaining beta time.

[dan.uk]

I only find paratroopers good as suicide drops if you know he has a large mass of AT guns or something, drop on them insta satchel then laugh as his desperate AT crews try to move :)

Trying to keep those guys up and running though will just eat all your manpower that you will need for other things, 375 I think is a little too much for them 350 would be nice :)

I do like the airborne tree just for the supply drops though! I find the bombing runs / mg strafe runs a little unpredicatable at times (sometimes an mg strafe run will decimate 3-4 squads sometimes it doesn't seem to hit anything / and likewise sometimes my bombing run just goes a touch off target rendering it useless and 250 munitions wasted)

I have played alot of games as an airbourne player now and I would say that its a struggle to keep any resources and counter anyone with a stronger ground force...as at the end of the day all the airbourne tree really offers you is the same troops you can get anyway almost just dropped at your convenience and at more cost.

After playing a few games as infantry I think the artillery is just far better than the plane runs and the uber reinforcement call in pwns.

[TheLoneKnight]

After further testing I have come to the conclusion that if the Infantry Commander can do anything offensively to handle Tigers, it's use Howitzers. En-masse. Probably the same with Calliope Shermans and Bombing Runs (though I'm less sure about bombing runs, the Airborne commander can drop AT guns so you could presumably work up some kind of weird flanking maneuver), though I haven't tested these quite as much.

Now if only I could sort out a good use for mortar teams... ;)

[Bisonman80]

After playing a few more games, I've come to the conclusion that the tiger isn't too strong. I dont know what I was thinking before

[Tranj]

After further testing I have come to the conclusion that if the Infantry Commander can do anything offensively to handle Tigers, it's use Howitzers. En-masse. Probably the same with Calliope Shermans and Bombing Runs (though I'm less sure about bombing runs, the Airborne commander can drop AT guns so you could presumably work up some kind of weird flanking maneuver), though I haven't tested these quite as much.

Now if only I could sort out a good use for mortar teams... ;)
Sniper removal.

[ArTizan]

Has anyone compared the tiger vs the allies 'super-tank' through the Tank commander tree? I can't say I've seen a 1v1 Tiger vs Allied 'super-tank' battle (forgotten the name:p)

[Lochar]

I think its the Pershing? I saw a thread on the old beta threads that someone took them head to head and it does lose but the tiger isnt in great shape, so that vs support shld take a tiger ok. But then if ya get tiger plus support then you need to counter his support with more support for you, then that support needs to support another supporting unit....Damn gave myself a headache....

[RaNdOm]

IMO a good strat for an Allied Tank Commander with a M26 Pershing is to get the Pershing with a Sherman Firefly (ie a sherman with an upgraded gun) or an M10 (Tank Destroyer), get the pershing in the front of the tiger where it can absorb some shots and scoot the Sherman/M10 around the rear of the tiger to take it out.

On a side note: if what I have heard is true: that a pershing will loose to a tiger in a 1v1 slugfest then there is probably a slight historical innacuracy as 1) the Pershing had a more powerful 90mm gun as opposed to the Tiger's 88 and 110mm of frontal armour as opposed to the Tiger's 100mm, making the Pershing a slightly stronger Heavy Tank. I have yet to confirm this occurance ingame although it doesnt seem to affect gameplay adversely considering the typical Allied tank tactic of swarming the enemy (eg my above tactic).

[Soldier of Dest]

As I wrote in 2 other threads, just using rangers (bazookas) and artillery crushed my tigers fast.

[shadowcreaper]

i just played my first axis game and WOW i love it, the basic infi in axis most amazing at defending i had my allie drop :( so was facing 2vs 1 lol

i got a tiger and was facing 4 shermans all game sinse it was 2vs 1 but with good infi support and mortor/ the screaming art, i managed to kill off most attcks,

then this is when it got wied...

1: my tiger hides behind some trees waiting for the attck to come
2: a sherman runs head on at my tiger and i shoot it kill half its health
3: sherman comes righ upto tiger i mean praticaly on top of it front on, my tiger doesnt shoot cos barrel is over the sherman most wied, then then sherman start running round and round my tiger while on top of it, my tiger cannot shoot cos barrel to long thus allways on top of sherman with the end of barerl over it.

sherman keeps shooting my tiger while i cant do anything not even move cos sherman on top of me and moving round and round, after 2 mins of this anoying stuff sherman finaly kils tiger.

i found this proper anoying sinse my tiger shot sherman close range and yes did half dmg but then when sherman came close up my barrel was sticking over sherman thus couldnt fire, is this a bug? cos in real life either my barrel would of broken off or sherman would exploded due to extreame cloe range shot.

could some one explain how this is?

[Skunker]

With a little bit of micromanagement you can knock out a lone tiger. If the tiger has a lot of support, you've not been putting enough pressure on your opponent. If there's any changes i'd reccomend for the tiger it's simply making it a tad more expensive.

[Woogie]

Copied from the main forum with something else added at the bottom

tanks are fine as they are....

me and 2 mates play this game constantly on 3 v 3's and we have no problems taking down tank spams that have included up to 3 tiger tanks at once....

yes flakpanzers take men down no problem... but try flanking the sods with 3 lots of infantry in different directions... yes tigers are "teh pwnage" but again flank them... come at them from all sides and artillery the sods at the same time....

satchel charges, stickybombs, bazookas....even grenades... they all hurt a tank... and if you have a mass of tanks vs a mass of tanks i always take down the anti infantry tanks first then rush my infantry afterwards.....

we either have 1 airborne and 2 infantry or 1 airborne 1 infantry 1 armor...

all 3 trees have tank killers...

its all about tactics.... and if the airborne guy saves up around 300 munitions.... you can kills 90% of the germans guys base good buy in 1 foul sweep....

do a scouting run then 2 lots of artillery and a bombing run.... completely cripples most peoples games as you have just taken down any where up to 5/6 buildings in one go....

Added: besides its not the tanks that are the problem its the skill called Manpower Blitz.. that for a cost of 200 munitions they can get 900 manpower which if they wait for a few seconds = 1 tiger tank and stormtrooper squad...

its too easy for germans to get these tanks..... thats the problem

[shadowcreaper]

as i said in my post theres a bug with tanks and their turrets so tigers ant that good atm when you get sloe to them sinse their turret goes accros your tank and cant shoot and yet sherman can shoot back most anoying, hopefuly they fix this bug before release. other wise tigers wil suck badly

[Starfisher]

Did you report it as a bug? There's a bug forum on this site: http://forums.relicnews.com/forumdisplay.php?f=186

Post there. Put as much detail and word it as clearly as you can. Only YOU can stop bugs!

[shadowcreaper]

ok thanks sinse this turret bug most wied.

[ConanBuddah]

Tigers are not that hard to defeat, as has been said it is all about troop placement.

Best idea is to spread tanks and infantry around the tiger so you dont get collateral damage. I foolishy had a m10 and a m4 too close together so that when one died they both died.

I find that even the side armour of the tiger is beatable and paratroopers with their anti vehicle weapon do wonders against them. Defensively anti vehicle guns behind sand bags seems to work a treat to draw the tigers fire. Then come at the side of the tiger with two m10s and boom!

[Kronos]

Thing is though,is that you actually have to use tactics and strategy to take down Tigers, instead of just sending in a bigger force and having a great big shootout, and the strongest side wins.Thats the way its been for a crap load of RTS's and alot of people seem to have a hard time adjusting to CoH.Personally I think using your grey matter makes the fights more fun.


I hope many games follow CoH's path, go Relic!!

[Trizzdog]

Tanks in general would be alot easier to kill if they didn't turn around so fast. Panthers are almost impossible to kill without superior numbers or arty because of their turning speed :O

[Lochar]

Hehe I played a game where I was using the fixed turret axis vehicle, stug? Guy was trying to run behind me with his rifle squad and thought I was microing it because it kept turning to face him, since we were trying out things and his squad got wiped I had to tell him that that vehicle doesnt have a turret that turns.

I think the biggest trick is finding something to tie up the enemies vehicles while you do flank him. But if he is microing that tank sometimes thats hard because he can change the attack order or swivel his facing for the bigger threat. thats when you bring in the 3rd unit..:) I have lost a few shermans tho trying to swing around, if you stay too close this leaves your sides now exposed and opened up for track damage or more.

[CannibalKid]

Anyone try landmines at the Tiger's spawn point?

[imp]

Tanks in general would be alot easier to kill if they didn't turn around so fast. Panthers are almost impossible to kill without superior numbers or arty because of their turning speed :O
you are ignoring the fact that in real life panthers and tigers would start disabling enemy tanks at 1000m and beyond and not just 10m like in coh, so flanking would have been even more difficult

[TheDeadlyShoe]

There's a lot of things we arn't accounting for that would happen in real life.

[ShortyMcNostri]

I played a 2v2 last night and we must've taken out something like 8 Tiger Aces (I have no bloody idea how they got that much manpower, we had map control for most of the game - then again by the end of the game the Tigers were pretty much the only units left). The first couple weren't micro'ed too badly and were supported by about 2 panzer IVs and a panther. They all got blown up by about 3 AT guns with crossing lines of fire and flanking M10s, with some riflemen stickies thrown in when possible. Afterwards they just kept throwing more Tiger Aces but they didn't seem to be micro'ed at all.

AT guns with the AP round ability do a surprising amount of damage to Tigers. They have an extremely long range compared to the Tigers, and if you position them properly with crossing lines of fire, you'll be forcing to always have his rear exposed; and due to their long range, the enemy might not even notice they're there until it's too late. Add to this a sizeable tank force and the Tiger's options are greatly reduced - if he chooses one target, he'll be exposed to something else. A well micro'ed Tiger is practically invincible since a good player will always get it out of danger before it's too late, but if he's hiding and running he's not really posing a threat to you :)

I think you start having problems when the Axis player uses the Tiger as support and not to spearhead assaults. When I play Axis I always try to keep my Tiger in the back and force the enemy to come to it, or I set up some AT guns behind it to trap anything that outmaneuvers it. I tend to use armor as short range artillery until the Allies are baited to launch an assault.

[macktheknifeau]

A battle, which ended up with him getting tigers. I was owning him the entire round, rangers were beating off his halftracks, taking out stugs and infantry. Then he rolls up with a tiger and m10's, anti-tank guns, rifle squads, shermans, rangers (when they were actually shooting it and not sitting there running around doing nothing) and howitzers did practially nothing at all to it.

I hit it with about 8 m10 shots in the rear armour and took it down a quarter. Something like 8 ranger squads devastated by it repeteadly (I say squad as in each time I retreat and re-inforce them) and a single ostwind, and took down to half heath before his engies came and repaired it. I forced it back occasionally, then he got another one.

I was trying to use mines, but you can't keep laying mines all the time.

Oh, plus stormtroopers capping my Vps whilst cloaked, so you can't see a thing and can't stop it (which lost me the game IMO, about 30+ tickets I lost instead of him trying to get them back, lost by 40 or so. And a full 6 man ranger squad failing to kill a 2 man stormtrooper squad from about 5 meters away and letting them cap. Nice.

I went infantry to try something else. Not again. Anytime I get allies, I'm going armour, going straight for armoured cars and raping axis base. If I don't, I'll end up getting raped by overpowered unkillable (unless you have 15 different units all perfectly microed) tigers.

[ArTizan]

One thing I havn't seen most people take full advantage of it the AT gun range. It can be difficult as their viewing range is limited, but they do have a massive range, proabably around 1.5 - 2 screens, and are exellent at taking out armour at this long range without worry of a counter attack provided you can tie them up with armour / garissoned troops.

[CannibalKid]

I rolled my Tiger into some mines, guarded by an AT Gun. 1 mine and a shot to front armor dropped my Tiger to about 60 - 70%. IDK if it was the extra penetration shot or not, but it hurt pretty good.

[ShortyMcNostri]

As I said before, AT guns do an unbelievable amount of damage to Tigers when compared to everything else. A couple of well placed guns with the AP round bonus will deal a significant blow to the Tiger.
Like Artizan said, the guns have excellent range. I think people are simply not using this unit the way it should be; every time I've come across AT guns, they're always placed close to the front line or somewhere highly predictable where the tanks can just waltz over and shoot them at close range.

[Starfisher]

If I don't, I'll end up getting raped by overpowered unkillable (unless you have 15 different units all perfectly microed) tigers.I killed a tiger the other day with a few infantry squads, two AT guns and a single Sherman. They are exceedingly powerful units that cannot be destroyed easily, but can be destroyed.

All I ever go anymore is Infantry. Howitzers are too much fun.

[shadowcreaper]

tigers dmg is pretty lame. shermans armour either too good or tiger dmg to weak,

[Frosty]

Tiger tanks may be incredibly powerful units on the field. It is historically accurate, that a tiger could deal with 3 or more shermans at a time and eventually survive it without even taking damage.

BUT (and that's a big BUT), tigers were extremly costly to produce and maintain. Germany didn't have lots and lots of them like in company of heroes. Tigers also suffered from technical issues. Their fuel consumption was excessive as well, while their engines were far too weak for a tank of that weight.

The Panther was a also a very good tank (and far more reliable and cheaper than the Tiger), but it was mainly used at the eastern front. And it was only built 6.000 times! Also, it was not nearly as "invulnerable" as the Tiger. Superior to allied tanks for sure, but not as "uber" as it is depicted in the game.

After all, the backbone of the german panzer corps was still the Panzer IV ... But they hardly appear on the battlefield in company of heroes, because Panthers and Tigers are just so much better.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

The Panther was a also a very good tank (and far more reliable and cheaper than the Tiger), but it was mainly used at the eastern front. And it was only built 6.000 times! Also, it was not nearly as "invulnerable" as the Tiger. Superior to allied tanks for sure, but not as "uber" as it is depicted in the game.ONLY 6,000? You must be using the US production figures for the Sherman as a yardstick here, because 6,000 is quite a damn lot. Germany had a grand total of 4000 tanks when they invaded the Soviet Union, and about 1000 when they attacked France. The Panzer IV itself only had 9,000 built by the end of the war, and the StuG III (the highest produced AFV in the Wehrmacht) only had 10,500.

[Dalamari]

Tiger is fine as is, it costs tons so it's not very often you get attacked by more that 1-2 at a time

[macktheknifeau]

Pretty sure there is a hard limit of 2 Tigers. Anyway, if they get 2 tigers, they just make a panther and a ostwind, maybe 2 Panzer IVs.

One final thing, is the "purchasable veterency". I reckon Axis should get a extra starting level of veterency, instead of buying a set upgrade which automatically applies to every unit. Having to deal with crack\elite tanks and infantry with basic tanks and infantry exacerbates the problem alot imo.

[Dalamari]

lol, yeah, just remembered you can only have 1

[shadowcreaper]

Tiger tanks may be incredibly powerful units on the field. It is historically accurate, that a tiger could deal with 3 or more shermans at a time and eventually survive it without even taking damage.


not realy historicaly accurate on this game sadly, shermans or called "tommy cookers" used airplane fuel engines thus were extreamly prone to explode when hit once.

in game i have fired of up to 5+ tiger shots at sherman and it hasnt died, now that is what i called wied. you say abotu tiger takign on 3-4 shermans in real life, this true but sadly in-game the dmg the tiger does to shermans doesnt destroy them good enough, thus tiger "Pinned into combact", in real life shermans ran away from tigers, in game i seem tiger shoot sherman2 shots up rear and not kil it, now thats just realy anoying.

sadly tigers are either super pop gun dmg or sherman armour not realistic, unles the shermans are" jumbo shermans" but this cant be sinse they produced in 1945 and dint see much combact action due to nomandy landing taking piority.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

you can get maximum 1 Tiger Ace(Terror), 2-3 Tigers(Blitz)

and quitcher bitchin about tigers, you have any idea how many penetrating shots it takes to kill a tiger? :p

[shadowcreaper]

lol il keep shouting louder then lol, played a game just now and was allies( wanted to see what facign a tiger like) i was facing a ace tiger sinse he chosen terror (know this cos my infi keep retreating lol)

this is what happened on the 1v1 map:

1: useal skimish attcks i got sniper in church and he decided to let me have middle and top side :D.

2: after a while he gets a tiger and by this time i have 2 shermans and 1 m10 tank destroyer, so i rushed my first shermans right into his tiger head on, bang he shot me but hay stil got 3/4 health left i then went round and round and round him keep shooting at him while he could do nothin sinse i blocking him in as i go roudn and turret bug stops him from shooting me , also his turret moves so slow lol he never catches up lol.

after about 2 misn of this fun he died and my sherman had stil 1/2 and a bit health left, my other tanks who were just watchign this comotion all along decided to help and we rushed forward kiling MGs along the way, once i get near his bas.... another tiger, so i sent the ful health sherman head on towards him to repeat what i did before. he decided this ant nice so backed up but cos he soo slow i proceded to "shag" once more his tiger and 2 mins later another tiger dead, at this point he said a few swear words and how he finds the bug exploits most f** ing anoying, then left.


so after that game i found how:

1: fun it is to shag a tiger and kil them so easy while takign little dmg
2: found how extreamly anoying it is to be on the axis team when this happends
3: found how tiger is extreamly crap, dmg racio wise in relation to history.

[AntiCommie]

You realize that is a bug... When its fixed you wont be able to do that, and your shermans will be dead

[TheDeadlyShoe]

that's because the guy running the tiger is new or not paying attention

all he has to do is back up

[shadowcreaper]

i hope they fix that bug that al im saying, until they do tigers are pretty lame.