Tiger Fest 06

[ÜberJumper]

Here's a replay of Ceejay, Soulblighter, and Wildcard versus Novaburn, myself and some random pickup from Relic Online.

Ceejay, Soul and Card were all in one teamspeak channel, nova and I in another (our teammate was not on teamspeak with us).

Ceejay Soul and Card went Blitz, Blitz and Terror.

Nova, I and the pickup guy went Armour, Airborne (Woo) and Infantry.

Let's just say that Tigers are a weeeee bit difficult to counter when there's 5 of them roaming around at once. I think we killed in excess of 35 of them all together.

You'll notice we cranked out very little armour, and I was desperate for munitions for most of the game. But they just kept cranking out Tigers, and we had a devil of a time trying to counter them.

Tigers need to cost more fuel :-D

Enjoy, look forward to your comments

[ceejayoz]

This was an absolutely amazing game. Good game, all of you, I can't wait to watch the replay again. :D

Tigers coupled with the manpower blitz make for a pretty nasty combo - whenever they took ours out, we'd have our next two just about ready to enter the field. Not fun, and may need a nerf of some sort. Got to the point where we were doing nothing but spam Tigers, actually - someone arty'ed my Panzer Command and I didn't notice for 10-20 minutes, and only then because Novablueark had a Sherman in it.

Fuel actually wasn't ever an issue, I had like 900 sitting around at all times. If it had cost munitions, though, I'd have been utterly sunk, because I was using my munitions to get the 900 manpower boosts that let me spam them.

p.s. 1.4 megabytes! :D

[ÜberJumper]

Oh, and my main building was destroyed and rebuilt TWICE.

[NovaBurn]

The main problem I had with that games was not really countering the attacks, but the sheer amount of Tigers that we had to deal with. Panzers and Panthers were not a problem, what was the problem was that as soon as you nailed a group of tanks with a tiger or two, another group would roll in a mop up your tanks. In some instances of the game I had a full battlion of shermans + two pershings and a calliope and managed to take down a few tanks or so with ubers assistance. Not more than a minute or later would more come in and just mop up. Either I would have my restored tanks come and take out the few straglers (from Allied War Engine) and attempt to rebuild fast enough before the next group would arrive to try to get the center Victory Point.

The impending threat of tiger attacks and such didnt really give me much of an option really to do but focus on tanks and such to take the things out. I could usually get 1-2 shermans and maybe a calliope or a Pershing and fend off a attack and wait for resources to rebuild again. When multiple tigers on the scene its pretty much impossible for the allied tanks to survive any battle, especially when the Tigers have backup. I would managed to take out a 1-2 tanks before my armor is gone.

In anycase the game was freaking awesome, probably the best allied armor game I've played yet. If there was only one blitz doctrine player the game would have been alot more balanced. So tigers definitely need work. Nice job guys.

[naradaman]

Woah how do you rebuild the main building? Is it just in the base buildings section? *smacks forhead*

[FooF]

Without watching the replay, who won? (I'll watch it tomorrow)

[ceejayoz]

Axis (soul, WildCard, and myself) won.

To be honest, Nova did a phenomenal job countering WildCard and myself. Had there been two Allied Armour companies we'd have had a very, very tough time of it. There were a few times I was terrified that his remaining tanks would make a huge run through our undefended points all the way to the bases - we were throwing everything into our Tiger pushes.

[Clonesa]

Judging from the comments it seems safe to say that the axis won ;)

[NovaBurn]

Tiger hax.

[CannibalKid]

Tigers need to cost more fuel

I don't think they cost any.

[Clonesa]

Tiger Ace is just man power and probably a little overpowered if a game lasts that long. Sadly the longer a match lasts the more likely axis are to win.

Anyways, definetly an epic match guys. I really liked that so many doctrines were shown. Its too bad axis defensive doctrine is so bad nobody chose it.

Was hilarious to see 1 tiger take on 4 shermans at the same time and even take direct howtizer and calliope strikes and keep on truckin. Was some really cool airborne battles early and mid game on the left side. Interesting use of AT guns and barbed wire.

Those infantry doctrine howitzers did some insane damage. Never seen the terrain deformed quite like that ;) Although they probably could've used more coordination with snipers and air recon. Also funny to see those late game front line howitzers (undefended) take chunks out of the axis main base.

Those 2 V1 strikes near the end were crazy. V1 strike seems a bit overpowered even for the high cost. It is ridiculously fast. 1 V1 strike took out 2 pershings and the allied player even saw it coming, but couldn't move away fast enough. And that well placed V1 severely damaged 4 buildings and destroyed something like 4 howitzers and at guns.

I think several balance conclusions can be made from this recording.
A) Axis defensive doctrine is weak. Not that it was shown, but the fact that it was the only doctrine not chosen speaks volumes.
B) Axis late game is strong and allied late game is weak where as the early game is more even (possible slight advantages could be argued for axis or allies).
C) Allied armour is weak. Perhaps price cost lowered on shermans and M10 weapon buff with perhaps a nerf to their armor.

Also I think I noticed a bug. There were unfinished mines in the right VP area that seemed to display the "critical hit" message when they were hit with artillery and even an MG seemed to fire at them. Odd...

[Firesparks]

The tigers are actually cheaper than panther if you consider the fact you also get a unit of stormies as part of the deal. Haven't played axis in a while but I think it was around 1000-900. If you minus the cost of the storm (400) it would mean the tiger effectively cost 500-600, not to mention it doesn't require fuel.

[FatalTheRabbit]

If you fielded many shermans or m10s you would have had some pretty expensive showpieces, and a lot less infantry which is what you need. Resources are better spent on things like AT guns and riflemen, or rangers with some howitzers blasting away.

[Starfisher]

3v3 games are unbalanced. Hence why I stopped playing them ;P

[ÜberJumper]

I find that airborne in this situation really mirrored what would happen, IRL, if an airborne force went up against an amour force. It'd get fucked up and bad.

I spent 400+ infantry countering tanks, and lost DOZENS of AT Guns.

I think we would have done better had we had our teammate on teamspeak.

If one of them had gone defensive, and gotten 88's up on the hill, we would have been in serious trouble :-(

[TheDeadlyShoe]

I'm leaning more and more towards the view that airborne should cost less in the late game. Or come veteran. They really can't compete against veteran axis infantry. And they are silly to build up veterancy with since they cost as much to reinforce as create.

I didn't watch the whole replay, but I don't think Axis defensive doctrine is weak, other than it doesnt have a Tiger. :p

[ceejayoz]

More thoughts:

Tigers should be drastically slowed. Nova kept trying to bring his Shemans around to the back, which by all rights they should be able to do, but I was able to keep them from getting to my back armour just by spinning around. Not cool - it should be easy to flank if it isn't defended by other tanks. Slowing it down would really hurt our strat of almost entirely undefended Tigers.

Mines seem pretty useless, if I saw one go off under my tanks I'd just keep rolling on down. 25 munitions is too much for what they do - far too expensive to set up the large fields one needs to stop armour or at least cost them enough to make the enemy think twice.

[ÜberJumper]

The reinforcement cost for Airborne troops is also prohibitive as well.

With an Airborne squad, it costs 62 MP to reinforce, and Infantry Squad, something like 30. I can see it being that expensive behind enemy lines, but when you've retreated airborne troops, shouldn't cost that much to reinforce near main buildings.

I really wish airborne troops had access to stickybombs, that'd probably help quite a bit.

[MadCatChiken]

I thought a normal infantry squad is like 270 mp.....

[ceejayoz]

Just to add to Uber's post, a new airborne unit costs 62.5 MP per soldier. No incentive to reinforce whatsoever...

[shadowcreaper]

tiger dmg way too weak, i seen shermans and tiger duals and one the allie has 2 sherman the tiger usealy loses.

it seems after lookign at the unit dmg racios too, tiger dmg is terrible, compared to real life, i find you have to hit a sherman at least 5 times to even properly dmg it.

in real life tigers were feard cos they can pawn shermans in less than 2 direct hits.
thus known shermans as "tommycookers" would be better if the tank realism was like that of FOW. also makign it more balanced sinse sherman would yes be weaker but would cost much much less thus keepign with numbers instead of dmg power.

[ceejayoz]

You've gotta be kidding, shadowcreaper. You want to make the Tiger more powerful? Did you watch the replay at all?

[Firesparks]

tiger dmg way too weak, i seen shermans and tiger duals and one the allie has 2 sherman the tiger usealy loses.

it seems after lookign at the unit dmg racios too, tiger dmg is terrible, compared to real life, i find you have to hit a sherman at least 5 times to even properly dmg it.

in real life tigers were feard cos they can pawn shermans in less than 2 direct hits.
thus known shermans as "tommycookers" would be better if the tank realism was like that of FOW. also makign it more balanced sinse sherman would yes be weaker but would cost much much less thus keepign with numbers instead of dmg power.
but then you would have to make tiger weaker as well, as the sherman/at/ranger/para would only take one or two rear shot to kill a tiger you want to use historical values.

One direct demo charge would like kill tiger as well.

Btw, the tiger and the panther deal the same damage, with panther being more accurate at distance. Tiger may have a bigger gun, but the panther's 75mm was equal if not better in terms of armor peneration

[Mac_Bug]

this is why you guys should play victory point with 1000 ticks

[ÜberJumper]

We did mac.

[turbo]

I watched maybe 20 minutes of the replay and I gotta say there were some really intense moments especially the defense of the left strategicpoint, mines + two 57 mm did a great job at stoping 2 panzers and a stug. But alot of times I was left wondering what some of the allied players were doing, running in with a rifleman squad only to get it killed and then send up a mortar and leave that undefended, or the paratrooper player who could have easily flanked the 2 stugs if he had moved around and up on the hill which he did later.

If the atleast one allied player had built a weapon support center and a mg in the start instead of just riflemen you would have denied the axis from taking the center which would have help you a great deal in keeping them boxed in. The axis were left with too much room to maneuver and so you lost.

Though you all did a good job fending off the insane amount of tanks the axis players were throwing at you .

[ÜberJumper]

turbo, yeah, that first push on the corner was awesome fun. I was lucky he didn't soften it with arty first. The second push when he broke in and took the point away my attention was elsewhere so I missed hearing the armour creaping up on it.

You're probably refering to the mortar crew I was using on the left side of the hill? I got them for cheap (60 or so manpower) so they were disposable as far as I was concerned. But again, the whole battle was pretty intense.

I know I sent a LOT of riflemen in against tanks by themselves, especially retreating tigers, with the goal of disabling them so we could kill them (sticky bombs have a tendency to do engine damage I've noticed).

In hindsight, there's a lot I would have, should have, could have done differently as Airborne, but considering that was only like my 4th game playing airborne, and maybe 10th as Allies at all, I think I did ok (Normally I team up with someone as Axis and go defensive tree). Lost a LOT of infantry though! Over 400!

We fought way too much on the front lines, and not enough behind the scenes raiding and distrations.

[shadowcreaper]

but then you would have to make tiger weaker as well, as the sherman/at/ranger/para would only take one or two rear shot to kill a tiger you want to use historical values.


actualy the bazoka cannot piece the armour of a tiger just for your info, also the sherman would have to be less than 10 mtrs to make a penatrating round. so i dont mind makign tiger rear armour weaker as long as it real.

like comon 2 rear shots on sherman= no kill that just stupid. if it not real then sherman just too powerful. (look how long it takes for sherman to die against tiger, by this point the tiger already dead sinse all his army apon him, in one case in france a tiger hid in a alle and abushed an "entire" armoured division witch in turn slowed the advance of allies massively. yet i dout you could do this in game sadly.

i love COH a LOT but the tank realism so farfetched it kinda spoils it sinse unless the allie realy noob he wil mostly win against them. i got plenty of replays when i have abushed a sherman at rear armour fired 3 shots still not dead... by this time his whole army surrounded me and my tiger dies--.--. i used this tactic in another tank game+ FOW and works very well sinse they keep with realism for tanks but let down else where.... i wish there was a game where it all good..

anyway, sherman stil too good no dout, though they do need to be cheaper,

[Brian]

Can you really balance the game on 3 vs 3 games though? Thought the balance was mostly centered on 1 vs 1 games.

Like in ranked games you would never see so many tanks and getting a tiger is a small miracle.

Oh ceej I think the reason airborne are slightly more expensive to reinforce is because you can do it anywhere.

[shadowcreaper]

i played a 1vs1 and was great...untill i released my opponent just building snipers everywhere :( by the time i released this is was to late and he was siezing all the victory points lol.


il try post the reaply here was a funny game sinse he was like" ur dead haha" all though it.pretty close game until i got me a sherman :p

[Mac_Bug]

i guess if ti went back and forth i can see how it could last two hours enough for ppl to get massive amounts of tigers. I'm too used to playing with mrmin and his friend and whoring 3/4th of the map

[Soulblighter]

Thread cleanup:

Suffocate - your post has been deleted and you are banned from the thread.

mrmin123 - your post has been deleted and you are banned from the thread.

[Boomstar]

The terror tree is just insanely good. With zeal to improve early infantry skirmishs and inspired assault to turn volk mass with mp40's into infantry mowers. To later on with proganda to ensure you never lose a control point as long as you have munitions (well if your not fighting armored light vehicle raiders anyway). V1 rockets and tigers are just icing on the cake. And the defensive tree is so awfull there would be no reason to take it over terror.

Alot needs to be done to balance out both sides in large games. Tigers need to be less of one man army as has been said making them, less maneuvarable so destroyers can use there speed to take them down when in a pack. And flakpanzers while I can understand there power (massed allied infantry can be nasty) there fuel cost is much to small for there power.

Allied tanks just in general are awfull for there cost only usefull for taking on fortified positions with no anti armor present, or taking down the odd flakpaner or flamethrower halftrack. The cost of allied tanks is ludicrous as well. I mean 110 fuel for a croc, and shermans cost more then panzers!? Some may argue that allied infantry is better then axis, and it is, but no where near as great as the difference between allied and axis tanks.

So main points are:

Balance out the terror tree (propaganda war in paticular), and make defense tree a bit more viable.

Allied armor needs to be cheaper to reflect its poor quality.

Tigers should have to be supported like everything else.

Flakpanzers fuel cost increased.

Just my observations from the games I've played.

[Clonesa]

I aree fully with Boomstar (member.php?u=27155). Axis Terror is probably the best faction in the game. Allies need end game buff (this can be partially achieved by lowering armor costs). And as he said Defensive doctrine needs a buff.

[SalvieSoldier]

I disagree.. I think the Blitz for the axis is far better than Terror. Stormtroopers with tigers and stugs.. Along with the manpower ability. I have come back from near impossible situations when using the Tiger and Stormtroopers along with grenadiers. And held. Stormtroopers are great troops, and supporting the tiger is almost unstoppable.. Plus the semi-fast reload time the manpower ability has. as long as there is munitions u are ok.

BUT i JUST played a game where i destroyed a guy with terror. He called in tiger after tiger and with good micro managing of Shermans and Ranger support i won. I did lose a few tanks, but i never had more than 3 on the tiger. Usually 2 shermans would engage, one would die and another would reappear just in time. Along with rangers hitting the tiger from the back, its nearly useless.. Thank god i nuked this points which prevented him from getting inf support. In the end i had 4 shermans, 2 with full exp... I held my points.. woot!!!

[ÜberJumper]

No way, Defensive tree is the best Axis faction! But then it just suits my play style, so I'm biased :-D

Actually, I can't see why at least one person in an axis side would not take defensive tree in a 2v2 game, especially with the Base Defense option (which allows you to reinforce troops near ANY of your bunkers), the flak 88, increased observation range (which let's the flak 88 hammer on stuff at range), and the 280mm off map rocket barrage.

[MadCatChiken]

well i'm gonna watch this get some screenies then i post them in the screenie thread for you all to enjoy. :D

[n0z3k1ll3r]

I honestly think that, barring the messed up Propaganda, Terror's pretty weak. You have no unique troops barring the hellishly late game Tiger Ace (and even then I'd take the conventional tiger and it's stormtroopers over the Ace) and all your things cost munitions so you're very dependant on a steady flow thereof.

[Silverdeath]

Alot of thoughts went through my mind, I sat in disbelief as shells bounced off again and again off of the tigers. Or a tank with like 1% of its health left and the sticky bomb didn't do squat against it. The infantry guy I think shoulda made rangers earlier and more often. I think the zookas would have been more useful than sacrificing a rifle squad and muntions to throw bombs that are mostly ineffective against the heavy tanks.

But other than that, I don't know what I coulda done different if I was in your shoes. You were simply blitzraped.

[MadCatChiken]

Posted a thew screenies but i have more to come on that match.

http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=100817&page=1&pp=15

[macktheknifeau]

I would rank the doctrines as a whole (assuming 500 VP control), from "best" to "worst" imo:

Allied Armour - Straight up Armour Car with raid usually going to result in a allied win, simply because greyhounds get into the enemy base and start blowing shit up. Especialy if the axis sticks to machine guns and snipers. Best "Rush" Doctrine.

Axis Blitz - Manpower Blitz means Axis have a tonne of time saved, which is very important. Instead of waiting minutes (usually with vp's counting down) to get manpower for units, 200 munitions and you can get 2-4 different units at the same time, and also allows instant tiger and stormy purchase. Best late game (although with blitz it's almost medium game) doctrine. If you survive to late game, you should win.

Allied Infantry - Makes you focus on riflemen and occasional ranger squads, which is what you need to counter axis armour. If you can hold the church and another point, you can usually make 2 or 3 howitzers, then pound the enemy base into rubble. If they don't take out the howitzers asap, then it's practically GG base. Getting howitzers out before they get panzers is essential imo. Good all round doctrine.

Axis Terror - Hellishly expensive "super units" (V1\Tiger Ace), propaganda can also buy time against a VP control, but imo slightly less usefull than the allied Inf Tree. I've found this doctine generally loses 100-150 tickets in time wasted aquiring units than you would if you went Blitz doctrine. 100-150 tickets usually means game over.

Allied Paratroops - Paratroops you get are not all that flash against armour, and the Plane Attacks have problems like failing to kill, or missing targets. Supply Drop near useless. You get Para Anti-Tank, but that's just not worth it imho.

Axis Defensive - The only way this really gets used alot is being smashed into the ground. The Defensive mgs don't really help fight the regular battle, and only really stop infantry coming into the base. 88's are late game, but will often fall prey to mortars, armour cars,
tanks, paratroops etc etc.

That said, it's up to the player to choose their doctrines, and :juggle: what they use to :fencing: with the opponents.

[Aldirin]

First post (long time lurker). Yay.

I think one of the issues hamstringing an allied response to Tigers is that one of the key factors of the U.S. Army during WW2 is missing. Only one tree gets artillery, but the American Army focused on having twice or even three times as many tubes in a general location as the Wehrmacht. As it is now, the Germans can actually have more tubes in a general location with the Walking Stuka, and Nebelwerfer. I know it's way too late to change anything, but replacing the M2 105mm Howitzer with a M1 155mm Howitzer, and replacing the Calliope with a M7 Priest 105mm SPH would make a lot more sense. As much as I love the 105 and the howitzer special ability, they aren't a real match for the amount of firepower the Army could throw during World War II. While the tanks might not have had as much, the amount of tubes the Allies could throw at a position was nothing to sneeze at.

[ÜberJumper]

Artillery certainly caused more casualties than small arms fire in WW2, but then the game would turn into a game of "Tanks" (old school reference), and it wouldn't be a heck of a lot of fun.

[NovaBurn]

shadowcreaper read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M4_Sherman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_I
http://www.onwar.com/tanks/usa/data/m4.htm
http://www.alanhamby.com/changes.html


The Sherman tank was comparatively fast and maneuverable, mechanically reliable, easy to manufacture and service, and produced in many special-purpose variants whose capabilities differed greatly. It was effective in the infantry support role.

The Sherman performed well against WWII Japanese tanks, Italian tanks, and the most common German tank of WWII, the Panzer IV medium series. However, the typical Sherman was inferior in both armor and armament to the later German Panther "medium" (heavy by US standards) and Tiger heavy tanks. Sherman crews sometimes evaded rather than confronted Tigers. In the Normandy campaign, it could take four to five Shermans to knock out a single Tiger tank by maneuvering to its weaker flank or rear armor.

Now that is for a single Tiger, and given what I had encountered in the game I can honestly say that 4 Shermans would be needed in order to take out a single tiger. And for oh lets say shits and giggles throw in another Tiger, 3 Panthers and a Panzers and you see how fun it gets trying to play against it.

Historically the Tigers were scary as shit and could pretty much take on any other tank out there by itself. It weak points were its mobility and cost. From what WP stated the Tigers were slow and prone to break downs in their engines and had a high cost to build and produce. Unfortunately in game that is not really the case. The tigers are much too easy to get as a blitzkrieg player. I have personally Tiger-spammed late game and I do say that it is not that hard to do especially if you can manage your army well enough to hold a defense to wait for more resources to just tiger rush and take them out. Throw in whatever your ally brings in, and if you are unfortunate like I was; another two tigers and a dozen other tanks.

Tigers:
- make them more expensive given the Manpower Blitz late game can just roll out tigers as soon as they get destroyed as Ceej stated. Couple that with playing against two blitzkrieg players and you see where the problem is with the ability to Tigerspam late game.
- Mobility for the turret is crazy fast compared to the Sherman. Tigers had a 25-60 Traverse speed (meaning how fast it takes for a full 360 rotation of the turret.) Whereas the Shermans had a 15 second traverse speed and should be able to turn quick enough to attack. That means the Shermans should be able to run their ass over to a Tiger and run behind it and rotate fast enough to blast the hell out of a Tiger while its trying to turn/rotate for a shot. Consistently I ran into the problem of the tigers blasting the hell out of my Shermans as soon as he gets close and then quickly rotating the turret to blow the hell out of the next one.

Shermans:
- Too expensive for what they can do. Given what has been stated above and mentioned in links provided, Shermans were not the best tank in the war and that’s quite easy to see. The cost of making a Sherman is just not worth the firepower that they can put out, as too many times could I throw 3-4 Shermans and Pershing at a group of German armor and have the shermans get annihilated and have nothing left but a messed up Pershing. For 420 manpower and 90 fuel the lifetime of my Shermans was not long at all and took me way too long to rebuild them as compared to the almost instant recall of the Tiger respawn. I would highly suggest lowering both the fuel and the man power to something more reasonable. I would thinkg 380 manpower and 75 fuel would be much better. Take those numbers and say for 5 Shermans at stock it would be 2100 M.power and 900 fuel. The revised would be 1900 and 375. 200 extra manpower and 90 fuel, enough for other stuff that could go towards say a tank destroyer or another Sherman. That right there would help the armor tech tree a lot more against German armor.
- Mobility/Pathfinding for the damn things is horrendous. When a mass attack of german armor would come flying at me, trying to micro the tanks was such a pain in the ass, that was half the reason I lost most of the battles. Every time consistantly I would order tanks to move to X location and it would sit there and think for a second or two and try to move and then would after doing some directional rotation dance to figure out how to get there. And of course in the process getting pounded and exploded by multi rounds from 5 different German tanks. I mean seriously the tank path finding and lag time to move in battle is just horrible. I can expect a little lag if I have them go in a direction they are not facing, but if they are in battle I would expect more urgency to move and the like.

[Nameless]

Argh tell me about it… I swear I’d lose half as many tanks if they’d hire some drivers beside recently paroled DUI offenders. I also love that the tank crews also often seem to forget their tank has a REVERSE gear and will instead rotate in place to drive like 5 feet back down a slope taking shots on their unarmored ass instead of just BACKING THE HELL UP. Hell they can even ATTACK right often times I'll give an attack command for a target WELL within range and instead of just holding postion to shot at it they charge out of cover and drive up to within 5 feet of the target, eating flanking fire all the way, before opening fire.

I recall someone in Dawn of War talking about feeling like a quote "tard wrangler" when trying to control his fire prism, I now know exactly how that feels. In fact I swear to god the move AI for the tanks in this game is WORSE.

This ignores all other balnace issues which as you pointed out are rather scewed... I've only played like a dozen games so far (most of them allied though, gee I wonder why...?), but basiclly it dose seem that if it goes to the late game and the Axis have any decent portion of the map then the Allies aren't able to do much beside delay defeat.

[FatalTheRabbit]

I think 75 fuel is a bit low, because as is it just doesn't even seem like a resource you need to pay much attention to. I'd like it if all tanks were considerably less reliant on manpower and more reliant on fuel.

Raising the fuel cost of main battle tanks would give the lighter vehciles more stage time anyway which would be nice since they get pushed out pretty quickly.

[Nameless]

Then raise the cost on the German tanks, one way or another the Shermans need to be able to gain a significant numerical edge as it did historically to win and right now that just isn’t possible. I mean for godsake the Pz.4 which can easily match it with veteran upgrades acutally costs LESS then the Sherman!

[macktheknifeau]

should be single click for regular movement, and double click for reversing.

[FatalTheRabbit]

Yeah I meant reduce manpower and increase fuel cost for all tanks across the board. At least that's what I'd like to see. I can't really forsee that it would disrupt the balance too much if you scaled them all with the same ratio like for every 30 point decrease in manpower cost increase fuel cost by 10 just as an example. I'd like to hear something official on the matter for once though.

Fuel just seems like a token resource except in the earliest stages of the game.

[FooF]

Just got out of a 2v2 on McG...War. My teammate went Infantry and I went Armor. We controlled most of the map (all the fuel points after about 20 minutes) and had them on the ropes when, as expected, the Tigers rolled out.

They built nothing but Tigers and the occasional Grenadier squad and seriously gave my partner and I a run for our money. They both went Blitz because there were 4 Tigers out at one point and my two Pershings got wiped quick. For nearly 40 minutes, all we dealt with were Tigers and AT guns.

My partner had already set up Howitzers and simply crushed the Axis bases but lo and behold, Tigers just kept coming and beating back my Armor and his Ranger squads. I don't know how they managed to keep producing them because by minute 40, we had the entire map locked down. They broke through our lines whenever my armor got crushed, nabbed a Fuel or Munitions point only to lose it by my Jeeps capping the point.

Ultimately it was a 1:11 hour game that was finally resolved when one of the Axis players dropped. After that, I only had to deal with two Tigers and at that point, it was over. I used Allied War Machine at least a dozen times and even when Two Pershings and 4 Shermans were used, the Tigers just didn't fall fast enough. I tried Sticky Bombs, AT guns, the whole shebang. I just have to say that Tiger Spam needs to be seriously addressed.

[Relic]

I usually need at least two Shermans against a Tiger... if you can click well enough, you can get enough hits on its rear armour.

Edit: I should add I upgraded both Sherman's guns.

[ShortyMcNostri]

Just went through something similar. Played a 3v3 and we must've taken out dozens of Tigers and Tiger Aces. Strength-wise I find that Tigers are alright, but when they can just keep churning them out, there is a problem. Luckily we had map domination and a sea of AT guns and mines to turn them to rubble, but seeing Tigers rolling out one after the other was a bit disconcerting.

By the end of the game, it was just Tigers and some grenadiers thrown in for good measure...

[ÜberJumper]

Quick point, IF you get into the enemy base, "Focus all fire on that super star destroyer", I mean focus all your fire on their main base building.

With it knocked out, all their buildings lose power, and they have to rebuild the main building before they can use their command abilities again.

[TNT]

The terror tree is just insanely good. With zeal to improve early infantry skirmishs and inspired assault to turn volk mass with mp40's into infantry mowers. To later on with proganda to ensure you never lose a control point as long as you have munitions (well if your not fighting armored light vehicle raiders anyway). V1 rockets and tigers are just icing on the cake. And the defensive tree is so awfull there would be no reason to take it over terror.

Alot needs to be done to balance out both sides in large games. Tigers need to be less of one man army as has been said making them, less maneuvarable so destroyers can use there speed to take them down when in a pack. And flakpanzers while I can understand there power (massed allied infantry can be nasty) there fuel cost is much to small for there power.

Allied tanks just in general are awfull for there cost only usefull for taking on fortified positions with no anti armor present, or taking down the odd flakpaner or flamethrower halftrack. The cost of allied tanks is ludicrous as well. I mean 110 fuel for a croc, and shermans cost more then panzers!? Some may argue that allied infantry is better then axis, and it is, but no where near as great as the difference between allied and axis tanks.

So main points are:

Balance out the terror tree (propaganda war in paticular), and make defense tree a bit more viable.

Allied armor needs to be cheaper to reflect its poor quality.

Tigers should have to be supported like everything else.

Flakpanzers fuel cost increased.

Just my observations from the games I've played.
Agree 100%. I would also say, give the allies a high-tier bazooka upgrade that costs 150 munitions (last ditch attempt to defend against the axis tank hordes if you arent prepared). Also, make the M10 reflect what it really does, which is kill tanks. Give it an AP ability (at a cost of munitions), with a timer of more than 5 f**king seconds. Raise the manpower cost to 320-350 and lower the fuel cost to 35-40, as well as making the shermans frontal armor a bit weaker and lowering the cost. This way allied tanks will focus more on what they really did- outspam the enemy with well-trained crews in mediocre tanks.

I think the defensive doctrine needs a bit of buffing, but it CAN be used effectively. 88s are absotivelutely DEVASTATING if used properly, especially if coupled with bunkers. Their range is superb, they also take out infantry quite well, and they (usually) protect against bombing/strafing runs. The defensive artillery strike, even though it is limited, is also absolutely devastating. No infantry in the area survives unless they retreat the second they see the red smoke, and it is cheaper than allied artillery, which gives the enemy so much time to run they could have a cup of tea while retreating (though it is good for taking out that pile of axis tanks while the player isnt watching).

AND MAKE THE TIGER COST FUEL! I MEAN, GOD DAMN! Blitz players can crank out tigers every minute using manpower blitz, plus you get an excess of manpower late-game.

Also, base blitzers in VP games annoy the hell out of me. I hate having a super-fortified city on St. Hillaire, only to have some smacktard with a couple pershings go straight for my base in a last-ditch attempt to win, having his ally call in artillery/bombing runs, playing every cheap card in the book in an attempt to win. In annihilation games this is to be expected, especially from axis players, but in VP it is stupid, especially when they roll over all your tank traps.

[Silverdeath]

Yeah that brings up another point... why can tanks run over tank traps?

[TNT]

Yeah that brings up another point... why can tanks run over tank traps?


:werd:


If tigers were not so rediculously easy to get/crank out, I would almost agree that they should be able to run over tank traps (albeit unrealistic, but whatever). But panthers? Pershings (maybe they should keep their ability for the sake of balance)? Wth?

[NovaBurn]

Yeah I meant reduce manpower and increase fuel cost for all tanks across the board. At least that's what I'd like to see. I can't really forsee that it would disrupt the balance too much if you scaled them all with the same ratio like for every 30 point decrease in manpower cost increase fuel cost by 10 just as an example. I'd like to hear something official on the matter for once though.

Fuel just seems like a token resource except in the earliest stages of the game.

Currently the allied tanks are cheaper than that of the german ones, abliet the cost is still somewhat higher than I'd like. when playing against other axis players, if I am armor company the only thing I build will be tanks and vehicles and maybe one-two infantry units for whatever purpose. In this particular situationt he problem is not that I can make tanks its that when put up against the german armor I simply cannot out produce them with my own tanks. I was constantly using all my resources to make tanks and nothing else. And with the sheer amount of tanks they threw at me, historically I should have been able to outnumber them and successfully fend off their attack with out losing ALL my tanks (which happened in this case).

Allied tanks needs to be cheaper when facing that many german tanks if nothing is to be done with the Tiger-manpower blitz. Now if something is done to at least cost the Tiger more manpower or at least SOME fuel, that would help significantly. Once those long games kick in and you are facing a blitz player, they are just going to tiger spam.

[FooF]

Quick suggestion:

Allied War Machine - Not only does it replace all the tanks lost, it halves (negotiable) the cost of tanks being produced, while it is active.

That way and Armor player, if they have the resources, can que up 3-4 Shermans while AWM is going and thus, outproduce their Axis counterpart.

[NovaBurn]

Oh holy fucking shit. I never noticed as everytime i hiy war machine it was when I was in battle and focusing on keeping my tanks alive and such. You sir win 50 internets.

[edit] bah I read that wrong as well. Now that ability would be most awesome to have I think it would work very well with allies especially during that game we played.

[Druidika]

Nova, BSUFooF merely suggested a change to the ability, it doesn't half the price of tanks yet.

[ÜberJumper]

OH POO, I totally read that wrong too, I was all excited about that!

If that ability's not in there yet, that'd provide an insane advantage that would be uncounterable.

[NovaBurn]

After considering that option to have Allied War Machine half the cost of tanks, I honestly think that sort of thing would help allies and their tank production. Given what I had faced, and if this sort of thing was implemented I would have had a much easier time counting the massive amounts of german armor. Seeing how allied war machine is a Tier 3 commander point option it would only be apparent in longer games and make for some interesting battles. Possibly increase the delay of the Allied War Machine power to compensate for the boost in production and I wouldn't for see that becoming a problem, of course playtesting would be needed to find out.

[Marwynn]

Man, I read that wrong too. I was all giddy to try it out in my lunch break...

Still, that'd be a great idea.

[FatalTheRabbit]

Guys that's just nuts. Allied armor is pretty tame, but that's overboard.

[MadCatChiken]

Guys check out my screenies i took on this replay. Posts 96 and 105. Total of 77 screens.

http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=100817


MCC.

[Starfisher]

Absolutely god help us all NO to an ability to halve tank production time.

This game is not going to be balanced for 1v1 AND 3v3. Simply not going to happen. That sort of ability would completely ruin 1v1 balance, while probably also ruining all other balance in the same fell swoop. You already get free tanks with war machine, and now you want extra half-price tanks as well? Yeah, that would ruin everything.

[AJ.eightFive]

Only read the first 2 pages of the thread but just wanted to say I hope you guys play again and post the replays like this, very useful for me as a rookie to see the tactics that were used.

[Firesparks]

Currently the allied tanks are cheaper than that of the german ones, abliet the cost is still somewhat higher than I'd like.
the panzer IV is cheaper than the sherman

[DatonKallandor]

It's also suckier.


Daton

[Boomstar]

It's also suckier.

Yeah I don't think you have actually played the game.

[Bruno]

Actually Daton, according to pyros' Unit Guide, without the 76mm cannon upgrade the Sherman's gun is weaker than the panzer IV, and reloads slower to boot. the only real benefit of a vanilla sherman is that it has 636 hitpoints, where as the panzer IV has only 600 (which is really a tiny differance when talking about heavy armor).

EDIT: Though it should be noted that for watever reason, the guide has no value for the Panzer IV's cannon vs inf.

[FatalTheRabbit]

No it isn't daton. The sherman starts out with less main cannon damage against heavy armor, and structure damage while taking up to 2 seconds longer to reload. Veterancy is an obvious advantage too because they come out of the factory with it, and the first one, which reduces successful damage by 15%, is cheap. I don't know what the armor is on the various parts compared to the sherman but the panzer seems to get a lot of bouncers of it's hull too.

There isn't a huge disparity between the two, but the panzer isn't worse that's for sure.

[FooF]

Sorry about raising all your pulses!

This is the way I see it: Germans have the Manpower Blitz that trades Munitions for MP (in essence) and this can fuel the Tiger spam we've been seeing.

Allied War Machine (if my suggestion went through) would be its equivalent. Now lets take a look at how "uncounterable" (per Uber) this would be...

The ability itself costs 250 Munitions and lasts, I think, 30 seconds. In that 30 seconds, you could theoretically que up 5 or so Shermans at 210 MP and 45 Fuel but that's still setting you back over 1000 MP and 225 Fuel. In order to make this ability overpowered, you have to be in the economic position to make it overpowered. Build times remain the same so its not like you just made 5 Shermans magically appear out of nowhere. You'd still have to wait the 45 seconds or so to build each tank.

However, this is realistic to WWII. Since I'm sure this ability would be applicable to all Vehicles, it would be possible to build 3 Shermans, a Croc, 2 Armored Cars and a Halftrack all at half price. But, again, you still need to wait for them to be built and you still have to be able to afford the halved versions in the first place.

Now of course, we could change it to 33% to make it more agreeable to everyone. Even a 25% reduction would toss Allied Armor a bone. The more I think about this suggestion, the more it makes sense to me.

Edit I'd like to also add that AWM does not apply to Calliope or Pershings. Commander abilities are not affected by this, only buildable units.

[NovaBurn]

Totally agree. The production times the alled tanksa are fine in my book, just trying to keep up in production is what killed me in that game. And like BSU said, if you have enough damn resources to spam out that many tanks and you are still alive, your opponent is not going to be very as to have let you get that far to begin with.

[Nameless]

This game is not going to be balanced for 1v1 AND 3v3. Simply not going to happenOkay NO just NO.

That is insane! So according to you if I like 3 on 3 play I should just accept it will be imbalanced?! Are you out of your mind?! If I pay 60 god damn bucks for a game I expect to be able to play it competitively with any settings it’s the Devs god damn jobs to balance it for all play styles! Just saying that we should all expect and accept that the game will be unbalanced under certain settings and we shouldn’t expect Relic to do anything about it is some of the most piss poor apologist logic I’ve ever seen.

I suspected something like this might be your view after reading the Veterans thread, but didn’t really want to believe that someone, a mod no less, would actually argue that as long as 1 on 1 was balanced larger games didn’t matter that much and that it was impossible to balance them anyway. That is a crock of shit because I’ve seen it done, but who am I? Just a guy that likes bigger games and would like a little balance in them... So I suppose I don't really matter then do I?:rolleyes:

[Mirage Knight]

Nameless:

I really think you misunderstood Starfisher. I believe he was referring to the fact that 1v1 and 3v3 games could never be balanced if an ability that halved tank production time were implemented. Chill out...take deep breathes...and read the post again carefully :)

[Kolath]

Hey Uber, what time (and timezone) do you, nova and company usually play? And do you play under your forum handles?

[ÜberJumper]

Kolath, usually around 9pm PST, but we just finished 2 games now (7:20) I might be on again to play, and yes, we play under our forum handles.