Are the Airborne inferior to Axis squads?!?

[SalvieSoldier]

Ive seen this enough times now to actually make a point.. When i am allies i get airborne, usually fast tech to tanks and drop airborne all over the place and harass. But lately ive seen airborne so inferior to infantry. Even volksgrenadiers! whats the problem with this!? Airborne are suppose to be elite infantry squads, i went head to head with a volks squad and a airborne squad. I used cover (green) while they used cover (yellow) but i took crazy casualties! It was ridiculous! He didnt even use a panzerfaust. All his rounds were hitting my airborne, and my airborne took out 1.. They took out 4.. This isnt the only time it has happened.. Many a game volks/grenadiers will inflict heavy cauualties on my airborne squads. They dont even hit anything. I use the recoiless rifle upgrade but that is never as effecitve as a panzerfaust or panzershreck. Am i alone on this?? Grr its really pissing me off. Usually i HAVE to fend off the first attack, if i do, i call in supplies and the like to hold off another. But it rarely happens..

Ah and since i dont want to make another thread here is another thing that gets me mad. WHY cant i UNLOAD off a MG or a AT gun?! WHATS THE DEAL!!! I have to just watch those USEFUL 3 men DIE while they cant retreat or do anything!!?! Just today i had a 2v2 where i had a platoon of airborne supported with mortars, 2 AT guns, and 1 mg holding the town near the axis base on McGeans War (forgot name).. These guys fought so valiantly it was ridiculous. Held off 3. i count em 3 heavy attacks by Stormtroopers, Tigers, and panthers.. (Combined). Finally the axis broke thru by outflanking all my positions.. I just had to sit and watch while my AT gunners sat there heroically firing their last rounds into the tigers. I knew the battle was lost when 3 tigers can from all sides. I wanted to unload my mortars and Atgunners and Mgs to come back and fight another day. But i sat there while the Mortar took its time unloading and trying to run. The AT gun cannot retreat at all. I mean its obviously a consequence leaving these things behind to the enemy, they can grab them. But i much rather have 3 more squads to reinforce and take other unmanned weaponary.. Well only 1 squad of para's and a mortar squad got out of that battle.. I salute those brave souls. They prevented the axis from grabbing the victory points... Keep in mind most of these men had crazy experience. My squads all had at least 2 stripes, both AT guns had 1. My MGsquad had another stripe. They all died... :cry:

[DatonKallandor]

You drop rookie Paratroopers on elite Volks most likely.

Also:

When i am allies i get airborne, usually fast tech to tanks and drop airborne all over the place and harass.

Spamming Airborne all over the place = not a good idea.


Daton

[Frosty]

Paratroopers aren't awesome killer units like Stormtroopers or Knight's Cross Holders. Paratroopers have other strenght's than just killing the enemy.

1) They can be dropped right into a battle, surprising an enemy.
2) They can reinfore in the field without a halftrack.
3) They can be excellent against infantry if you use their grenades.
4) They have recoilless rifles, making them passable AT units.
5) They have the "fire up" ability that makes them move very fast and enables them to easily flank enemy MGs, AT guns, tanks, troops or whatever without being supressed. And it doesn't even cost you munitions!
6) They have satchel charges that are very excellent for cleaning buildings and destroying bunkers, AT guns or even barbed wire and tank traps.

You have to use their special abilities, otherwise they will be not much better at fighting than Volksgrenadiers.

[LoneWolf666]

Airborne do a much, much worse job at killing infantry than Riflemen. I sometimes wonder why the hell is my "elite" so weak.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

Airborne are primarily there to flank and destroy stationary defenses so your other units can get in. If they just replaced Riflemen in every way the game would lose a lot of depth really.

[Aegeri]

I don't really like paratroopers but they are brilliant troops in a pinch. You can use them to rapidly retake AT guns if things went horrible [6 paratroopers can man two unoccupied AT guns for a tidy MP difference] and to pinch take/defend points in a hurry.

They are definitely not a replacement for riflemen.

[raydude]

Just today i had a 2v2 where i had a platoon of airborne supported with mortars, 2 AT guns, and 1 mg holding the town near the axis base on McGeans War (forgot name).. These guys fought so valiantly it was ridiculous. Held off 3. i count em 3 heavy attacks by Stormtroopers, Tigers, and panthers.. (Combined).

Sounds to me like the airborne wasn't so inferior after all. If they were inferior then you wouldn't have that story to tell. Instead your story would be more like:

"I had a platoon of airborne supported with mortars, 2 AT guns, and 1 MG and the airborne got killed by 1, count em 1 volks squad".

So I think you've figured it out. Airborne are not inferior if used properly and supported by other units.

[Starfisher]

To answer the title of the thread, yes, in a one on one confrontation, the airborne squad will probably lose. Especially since the Volks squad probably had the mp upgrade, which means they tear infantry to pieces.

They have other uses, but the high reinforce cost makes them somewhat pointless to level up in veterancy. Some people seem to like them, but I myself can't use the tree.

[cmdr Cee]

I always find my airborne sprint into the enemys face.

I put them behind some sand bags or a wall and as soon as an enemy comes they, run straight out into the enemys face. (usually into a red zone)

[Woogie]

imo paras aint that good anymore...

it took me 3...yes 3 satches charges to take down a bunker... thats 225 munitions to take down a bunker + the 375 manpower to drop them in...

they make barely passable AT units after a upgrade and their infantry killing abilities are pretty pants compared to other units... they cost more to reinforce than any other squad....

other than that the airborne tree is ok.... lol

[Aegeri]

The recoiless rifle can destroy a flak 88 in one shot! That's 125 munitions for a one shot kill to a unit you'll probably never see, but it counts ;)

[Again, paras aren't meant really for being your whole army and have their niche. The bigger the map the better they are in my opinion.]

[Ant991]

Satchel charges may not be that great against bunkers, but they're excellent for taking out troops inside buildings. I saw one satchel charge clear a house of 2 squads of stormtroopers and a squad of pioneers yesterday. The recoiless rifle also means they're not bad at AT, provided they have a little support, of course.

As has been mentioned, the volks probably had MP40s and some veterancy upgrades. Dropping airborne in on their own and totally unsupported is not the way to go really, they're best used to instantly reinforce an attack or defense. Also, the ability to reinforce anywhere on the map is damned helpful.

[Aegeri]

Use them to capture AT guns rapidly.

You'll learn to <3 them.

OR MONEY BACK.

[Crackbone]

Airborne are very niche and very specialized. They do what they are meant to do very well...

IE, they are able to cap points well behind the lines to cut off supplies to the Axis... They are very well suited as a emergency infantry squad to delay the enemy... They have dropped AT guns, they have the ability to supply additional munitions and gas in a pinch, not to mention additional FREE heavy weapons. (While most say that these weapons aren't usable late game, I disagree highly.... I can't tell you the number of times that a .30 MG has saved my ass covering a point after an Axis tank rush and subsequent attempt to cap a point... Mortars are very valuable as well...)

A supply drop on rifles with a halftrack is insane.

The problem here is that most look @ the paratroopers and not the whole tree itself. It provides alot of utility and quick strike ability. It's the most mobile of the three trees.

Taken as a whole it's strong. Paras are just about right for what they do.... They aren't meant to be rifles.

Additionally, some of us from closed beta remember what these chaps were like prenerf.... I can tell you, airborne as strong as rifles means a completely OPed tree. You'll have to take my word for it. :)

[B1g_GuN]

To all those that say Paratroops are rubbish, you're wrong. I have proof that if used correctly they own ANY infantry and can take on tanks too.

What people fail to do is use their 'fired up' ability. When you're in a fight, click that ability (it's free), then if it's infantry you will own them and if it's a tank, as long as you have remembered to upgrade to get bazookas you can flank it (as the ability gives you speed) and hit it's rear using that ability which most of the time disables it.

I have won so many games with using just paratroopers and AT guns. They really are good as long as you remember to use their abilities correctly.

[Demonic Spoon]

Actually someone tested this, and volks can beat riflemen one on one if it's a long range fight. I forget the results vs airborne but I am pretty sure it's the same.

And your "elite" paratroops, remember, also can't carry that much equipment. Yeah, they were strong troops, but they also were limited in equipment, hence less combat ability.

[SalvieSoldier]

I actually win all the time with this strategy. But what i am getting outta this topic is basically i should just get riflemen most of the time but drop airborne here and there to harass/cap points/hold off enemy. Most of the time my strat works. But im saying that a regular volks squad against a regular airborne squad should NOT be able to wipe out a squad of airborne. Volks (i thought) were last ditch troops used in the battle for berlin..

[Frosty]

Volks (i thought) were last ditch troops used in the battle for berlin..

Volksgrenadier is not the same as Volkssturm!

While the Volkssturm consisted of everything they had left (kids, old men), Volksgrenadiers were just recruits from throughout europe tasked with replacing the experienced soldiers in France, who were needed at the eastern front.

[Aegeri]

Any group of guys armed with MP40s would be able to tear stuff up....

[SalvieSoldier]

thing is the volks i fought were NOT armed with MP40s nor did i think they had much experience. I watched the replay.. OOps i got that confused Frosty thanks for clarifying.

[ArTizan]

Dopes firing up a squad give them an attack / damage bonus then? I was under the impression all it did was speed them up and make them immune to being surpressed.

[SalvieSoldier]

i THINK it preventrs from being supressed and gives them speed.

[Epilon]

I think a simple solutin to this problem would be to allow paratroopers the tompson upgrade, thus makeing them a good bit more usefull after the intinal drop and flank. This woundn't take away from the rangers, as airborn are far more fragile, and are a less dedicated AT threat. It would just increase their capabilities to flank effectivly and win a few fights after they are airdropped. It would acutally compliment their role, as they are there for the sole purpose of flanking, and thompson is a flanking type of gun.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Did Airborne have Thompsons?

*edit*

Found a couple mentions that they did. So there's no historical barrier.

[Epilon]

Well, its not like Thompsons were rare, they were abundent and cost $70. I dont have a price comparison; what did the m1 garand and carbine variant cost, I couldn't find any information on them.

[Weavern]

Paratroopers are building cleaners and static emplacement destroyers. Their RRs are just brutal against static emplacements as is a satchel charge into anything occupied with troops. They are not made to replace riflemen and if you give them upgrades to try and make this so such as the thompson you basically are trying to turn them into riflemen. They kill the nasty bunkers and buildings and in a pinch can be immediatly reinforced in field. Hell being able to drop them behind enemy lines and cut off supply chains is another valuable use for them.

Use para for what they are effective at. Use rifles for what they are effective at.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

They wouldn't be riflemen with thompsons. I think it would be more of an issue that they'd be so similar to Rangers.

[ObservationPost]

You have to use their special abilities, otherwise they will be not much better at fighting than Volksgrenadiers.

Worse actually assuming MP40's.

I don't know about anyone else, but I don't make volks unless I can upgrade them. I might as well throw away my MP otherwise.

[Aegeri]

I don't know about anyone else, but I don't make volks unless I can upgrade them. I might as well throw away my MP otherwise.

Volks are still worth-while against riflespam for example. You can explode 2 riflemen, sometimes 3, with a well aimed panzerfaust. I agree with you in general however that I wouldn't really build volks until I've secured the munitions to upgrade them. Tossing MG42s all over the place is much more effective than a volks squad, at least until grenades.

[Epilon]

Well, there are 2 reason why I think they wouldn't affect rangers as much: one, they are far more fragile than them; two, they are not such a hard infintry counter (rangers used to be a great AT but now the bazzoka seems to miss too much); and three, rangers are in a differnt command set. As I stated before, I dont want them to be replacements for riflemen, I just want them to be best at what they do: flanking. I really doubt their abilities agaisnt static buildings now since it takes around 3 stachels to blow up 1 bunker--though they are still good agaisnt garrisoned buildings. I view paras as flankers and as you said "building cleaners." Tompsons are good short ranged weapons and if added as an upgrade, could defenitly increase their capabilites in flanking for the airborn players after their initial drop. I already know that their abilities are good, but fire-up alone wont help you much if you cannot defeat a volks in close range when you flank them (yes even the volks mp40 upgrade shouldn't make them immune to flanking if they get too close).

[Oryhara]

How about just giving the sarge or one of the guys in the squad a Thompson? Just one guy, and you start out with it.

[SalvieSoldier]

sounds good.

[Frosty]

How about just giving the sarge or one of the guys in the squad a Thompson? Just one guy, and you start out with it.

That's a good idea. I think that every squadleader in the game should be equipped with an SMG. That would be the Thompson or M3A1 "Grease Gun" for the Allies and the MP40 for the Germans. Admittedly, the german squadleaders are already equipped with Stg44s, but they behave exactly like K98k rifles.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Actually I think the axis squadleaders do more lethal burst shots, but they tend to spend most of their time waving instructions at the rest of the squad rather than shooting, so it balances out.

The riflemen leaders use carbines i think.

[Epilon]

Nah, they need more than just 1 guy with the Thompson, cause having just 1 in a squad wont necceraily beat a voks squad if you flank it--maby 2 or 3. I'm not familiar with CoH's dps, so correct me if I'm wrong. However the general consensus is to giving the Airborn some form of Thompsons right?

[gh0st]

Volksgrenadier is not the same as Volkssturm!

While the Volkssturm consisted of everything they had left (kids, old men), Volksgrenadiers were just recruits from throughout europe tasked with replacing the experienced soldiers in France, who were needed at the eastern front.
wrong.

wiki-

Many prior infantry divisions that had been mauled or destroyed in combat were rebuilt to the new Volksgrenadier standard, and new divisions were raised as well. They were formed out of anything the Replacement Army could get its hands on: boys and elderly men, men previously rejected as physically unfit for service, wounded soldiers returning from hospitals, and transfers from the Kriegsmarine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kriegsmarine) and Luftwaffe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luftwaffe), usually organized around small cadres of hardened veterans.

volksgrenadiers were pants during the war.

[SalvieSoldier]

SO i was right! These volks shoudnt be able to stand up to an Airborne squad!!

[gh0st]

SO i was right! These volks shoudnt be able to stand up to an Airborne squad!!
yeah dont listen to all the armchair generals that think they know everything about history when a quick check of wikipedia or anywhere else on the web proves them wrong.

[CrimsonAngel]

And you belive you do Ghost.

Well i know my great grand dad was in the German army.
He was not a grenadier only a basic foot soldier and i know from the iron cross my family still have he was not as you say "Pants".

He was a veteran when D-day arrived and only went missing somewhere in France.
That is all i know because it's not something my grandmother spoke about.

He would be what relick put in as Volk's.

[Frosty]

Sorry, i must have confused Volksgrenadiers with "Wehrpflichtige" (people forced to do military service).


SO i was right! These volks shoudnt be able to stand up to an Airborne squad!!

I never claimed that they should. However, it's a game. Realism doesn't mean anything. Or do you think that Grenadiers were really organized in groups of 4?

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Airborne do fine against volks if you use the grenade. :p

[n0z3k1ll3r]

He was not a grenadier only a basic foot soldier and i know from the iron cross my family still have he was not as you say "Pants".As "Grenadier" is in fact German for "Soldier", I honestly think you might need to get your facts straight there...

[Grimreapo]

*sigh*

Right, now Volksgrenadiers were a support unit for important bunkers (however most bunkers during d-day were guarded by osttruppen (eastern troops) poor bastards who got conscripted by the Nazis but there is a funny story about a bunch of Koreans) and close support for armour attacks (there was great number of them during the battle of bulge). As for quality, depend how you look at it, by German standards poor but US standards pretty good; iirc for a regular German trooper would be trained 16 weeks but a US soldier got 6 weeks however what let the Volks down was their equipment, if the standard US is semi-auto grand and the German standard was bolt action K98 its not hard to see who is going to win...



For you Americans, think of what the National Guard in Iraq...


As for paras, in real life they were good at small-scale battles but were "lacking" when it came to big ones due to their limited equipment. In the game they are hit and run troops who have a good staying power, add in AT dropped anywhere on the field they are pretty powerful...

[raydude]

Many prior infantry divisions that had been mauled or destroyed in combat were rebuilt to the new Volksgrenadier standard, and new divisions were raised as well. They were formed out of anything the Replacement Army could get its hands on: boys and elderly men, men previously rejected as physically unfit for service, wounded soldiers returning from hospitals, and transfers from the Kriegsmarine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kriegsmarine) and Luftwaffe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luftwaffe), usually organized around small cadres of hardened veterans.

Not surprisingly for those who know millitary history - the german system of reforming units around cadres is precisely why German divisions were able to stay cohesive for so long and why German troops were able to maintain their level of effectiveness despite shortages in equipment and supplies.

By pulling units back from the line after suffering losses, and having the cadres teach replacements the tactics required to stay alive and defeat the enemy the Germans were able to maintain the level of effectiveness of their divisions.

In contrast, the US system of keeping divisions on the line and continually sending replacements was woefully inadequate. At best some units might be able to teach their replacements lessons leared - but more often than not the replacements were just sent straight into the line and got killed.

Then again, some German divisions just got bled white and lacked enough of a cadre to rebuild the division.

Bottom line: some volksgrenadier units gave as good as they got, some didn't. I doubt any allied veteran would say any of them were pushovers.

[Flawless]

I dislike Rangers because they require so much microing. Its hard to fight 2-3 different battles at once. On small maps they are basically worthless, because other units can do the same thing they do and better, and on small maps a halftrack can easily just run over and kill them all.

[Twinis]

WEll in WWII, the airborne were not the elite troops people think they are. Yes, they were specially trained. But they were trained to drop behind enemy lines and serve a varity of tasks and were equipped to do so. Their purpose is rapid deployment in the field to serve purposes of supporting the front lines in one fashion or another. Be it cutting off enemy resupply, taking out specific targets, etc, I'm sure the point has been made. I think they are accurately represented in the game as they weren't primarily the best combat troops but rather skilled support troops.

[Cias]

Nah, they need more than just 1 guy with the Thompson, cause having just 1 in a squad wont necceraily beat a voks squad if you flank it--maby 2 or 3. I'm not familiar with CoH's dps, so correct me if I'm wrong. However the general consensus is to giving the Airborn some form of Thompsons right?
giving airborne an smg would make them overpowered. they are fine the way they are.

[Frosty]

It seems to me that paratroopers are now shooting much more accurate than before the patch.

[Flawless]

Airborne is just for hampering supply lines and general harassement. They can do it all, but usually suck at it.

[Epilon]

Well, I forgot about the nade :)...So I guess 1 guy with a thompson would be enough then to balance them out--let them take out the straglers since nade doen't always kill the entire squad...and Cias you need a somewhat bigger post to refute me other than a 1 liner--well Shoe did it, but he atleast provided an example. Also since when are the Airborne considered regular GIs? Though it is a fact that they were often under-supplied and so on, their success during such duress proves their quailty. I think they are apropriate too for flanking right now, though adding a Thompson could go a long way too.