Changes needed to Allied Infantry - Howitzers

[xanupox]

Howitzer is overpowered.

I am a fairly experienced player with over 100 games played in multiplayer beta. If you play a game of annilation and the other side take allied infantry you will eventually be defeated.

The problem is the fact that howitzers have a single upfront cost, then are unlimited in thier razing of the landscape capability and tremendous range.

On most maps, if a howitzer is placed near the middle of the map they can hit the other teams base...

So how do you counter howitzers, when your opponent builds 4-6 of them and does not fire a single one until all of them have been built? His first salvo of 4-6 howitzers will destroy ALL of your buildings inside your base. You can no longer make a Walking Stutka, Nebelwerfer or anything to counter because your production buildings are gone. Then every <1 minute later, your entire base area is lit up again, making it impossible to even rebuild... if you actually decided to do that your base a 2nd time.

Sure the Howitzers take up manpower, but when used correctly you do not need manpower to win, outside the howitzers... because they will allow you to DOUBLE your manpower with ease.

The howitzers not only :censored: the enemy base, completely leveling it and eliminating thier capability to produce anything to counter your howitzers, the howitzers also effectively decimate the enemy front lines. Allowing simple units like engineers to just walkup and capture control points without even a shot being fired.

Once you take the enemy frontline capture points, you increase your manpower and then the Rangers come storming in...

They take the 2nd line outposts, if there was any defenses left at all the rangers mop it up, and further your manpower.... while the howitzers continue to :censored: the enemy base.

----

Solutions?

Extreme Solution: Each Howitzer shot costs 50 munitions. A small cost for such devastation and range.
This will prevent unlimited howitzer spam, and the axis can actually reduce thier threat of being howitzered by controlling more munitions points than allies.

Moderate Solution: Each Howitzer comes with 5 shots each. Once all 5 shots have been fired, all still on the current cooldown between shots they have to be reloaded. 250 munitions and 2 minutes to reload the howitzer.

Easy Solution: Limit the Allied Infantry to # of Howitzer per Team mapsize. Semois: 1 Howitzer, St Hillaire: 2 Howitzers, McGechans War: 2 Howtizers, Hill: 3 Howitzers.

---

Aside from all the solutions above, the Howitzer ranges need to be reduced by at least 1/3 of thier current range. Even on a long map like St Hillare, if you put a Howitzer in the city of near the railroad you can hit the other teams HeadQuarters. The ONLY counter to Howitzers would be Tigers, and without an HQ... you cannot get Tigers.

To those that say, there are counters to the Howitzer besides Tigers... no there is not.

Show me something that can get thru 2 rows of staggered tanktraps, with 3 rows of barbed wire behind that, with multiple MG bunkers behind that and mines in front of the MG bunkers.... nothing.

Remember... the Howitzers already leveled the axis base, you cannot produce any units expect from a possible forward barracks or from HQ tech tree.

Trust me on this one, a friend and I did it last night to just test it. We hardly ever play Allies because they are so over powered, we had a really rough fight against some guys both using howitzers but they were careless. We took them out, but when the next game game around we decided to try out allied infantry using the howitzer strategy I mentioned above. We played a nice game of Anniliation on St Hillaire.

We allowed them to have half the map, then locked it down. West to East was a wall of double tanktraps, barbewire, MG nests, Mines. We prepped 5-6 AT guns along the line incase of Tigers, then made howitzers. SIX HOWITZERS each. We fired all 12 into the enemy base 3 rounds each. Then moved our snipers up to see the damage... it was absolute devastation. One HQ was down, all enemy buildings gone.

Overpowered? Yes.

[Spartan452]

no they arent overpowered because if u can get a sniper or 2 in there camoed, they can scout for your own arty strike, and most of the time, people like me build howizters together, so 1 arty will wipe out the howizters. I had a game where the guy pummeled my base with howziters, and his team mate blasted the crap outta me with callopie, so what i did was make 2 units of stormtroopers go camo and hunt the callopies and howizters. Once u find the howziters how many it may be use the stormstroopers multi gernade toss, to wipe out the howizters or u can use them to spot for your own arty or v2 rockets, thats how i take out the howizters and callopie. that bomb the crap outta my base.

what i do think is overpowered is the halftracks with arty on the axis side, they are mobile have a pretty good range and are less prone to being artied and bombed. once the guy has a few good scounts maybe 3 or 4 of those halftracks he can almost always level your whole army of soilders

[DatonKallandor]

Do you know how much pop a howitzer costs? Even with 2 howitzers on the field, the allied player will have a hard time fielding a proper army.


Daton

[TheLoneKnight]

It sounds to me like your evidence for Howitzer "OP"-ness is that you fought players who you would have completely stomped normally, then spammed Howitzers because they were incapable of attacking you before you got a ludicrous amount of defense. Not to mention their inability to shell your defenses with their own artillery.

[Bentguru]

If somebody is able to blow about 300 fuel and over 1600 mp on howitzers, and you're still unable to either 1) Push back his now very small very vulnerable army or 2) Ready an assualt force of tanks and infantry to take the spot. Then the problem isn't the howitzers.

I mean seriously, axis tanks like the panzer can drive over tanktraps and barbed wire, the mines will damage the engin but do almost no damage. You should easily be able to take the point with an assault. 1 Howtizer is useful, 2 are nice, more than that is a liability considering how easily they can be taken out now that you've gimped your fighting force. If somebody can get 4-6, and set up these amazingly elaborate defenses, then you lost the game before he started. He's just putting the nail in the coffin.

[Aegeri]

axis tanks like the panzer can drive over tanktraps

The Panther can no longer run over tank traps. Someone decided that a 610mp/140fuel tank must obviously be imbalanced if it can crush tank traps and other heavy obstacles [like double hedges].

The only Axis tank with heavy crushing [required to run over tank traps] is the Tiger.

[DatonKallandor]

And the Tiger Ace. Basically, Axis Defensive tree players have no way to remove Tanktraps except excessive bombardement.


Daton

[Coey]

Late game 3vs3 Howitzers are imbalanced. There is no effective counter, unless the 88 is given indirect fire.

[Ant991]

Late game 3vs3 Howitzers are imbalanced. There is no effective counter, unless the 88 is given indirect fire.


Depending on the position of the howitzer, a camoed squad of stormtroopers using a grenade bundle or grenade assault (from behind, preferably) will work wonders. Of course, if you don't destroy the actual howitzer it will likely just get remanned, but it gives you a little time, and if the position isn't very well defended you have the option of taking the howitzer for yourself and using it to destroy another howitzer. If your enemy doesn't beat you to firing, anyway.

[Bentguru]

The Panther can no longer run over tank traps. Someone decided that a 610mp/140fuel tank must obviously be imbalanced if it can crush tank traps and other heavy obstacles [like double hedges].

The only Axis tank with heavy crushing [required to run over tank traps] is the Tiger.
Aegeri is online now Report Bad Post Quick reply to this message

Do you mean the panther, the panzer IV, or both. Because I knew they changed the panther to not do it, but my memory is saying the panzer still could. If niether can thats pretty stupid, seeing as defensive doctrine axis would then have no way of clearing out tank traps.

[WildeCard]

Panther and P4 can't crush traps in the latest build, AFAIK.

[Bentguru]

Well, thats just retarded.

[MirrorImage]

I agree howitzers are imbalanced and there is no good way to take out howitzers.

I've tried sneaking elite snipers. The person with the infantry doctorine merely just had his ally covering him with shermans and at teams. I tried sniping all their howitzers and a sherman crocidile pretty much chased them down.

Than I tried sending in 2 elite tigers not aces. I took out most of their howitzers but their at teams pretty much ':censored:d' my tigers with a few sticky bombs to the engine. And they just rebuilt their howitzers closer to our base and bombed all our hqs so we couldn't call any more tigers in. Of course we didn't figure out till the infantry company guy shot all 6 howitzers at our hqs.

And there is pretty much no way to get through with normal infantry. They usually have emplacements all around and at teams all around. And their ally is usually on the stand by to protect it or assault the rest of our base. And in a 1v1 you only really need two or three howitzers to destroy a base. Because you are only targeting one player instead of two faster to destroy than spreading out your artillery to hit two players worth of buildings.

My opinion to fix this would be either shortening the range by about 1/3 or maybe even half. Or making it so it can only be built in the main base as defensive bombardments.

[Pengu]

Your enemy should never be able to get that many howitzers if your playing properly. In annilation there is no good reason you should not be almost constantly be putting pressure on the enemy. If you sustain pressure agaisnt an enemy there is no way they should be able to afford more than a few howitzers ever. The only time you should be defending is if its a victory point game, or your stockpiling troops for a push into a heavily defended area. If your enemy has enough time to build that many howitzers theres no reason you shouldn't be able to field multiple tigers and panthers. Hell even a walking stuka or nebelwefer will kill artillary extremely easily. Howitzers can't move. Any bombardment on them is their death.

[SSSlippy]

One good artillary strike can clear all the howitzers just drive a bike in quick to stop or use a sniper stealthed and dont shoot.

[MirvShag]

I disagree with original post. Howitzers are not OP. I've played both sides a plenty and howitzers can be countered many ways. If they have been given enough time to build 5-6 howies in range of your base. You were going to loose anyway.

Howitzers are a huge drain on the allies and I have never lost in a 2v2 or 3v3 game against allie(s) that did mass howitzers in one spot.

Many ways to counter, stormtroopers, snipers, flakpanzers. Once the howitzers are out of the picture the allied player has nothing.

Game over, you win.

[Cias]

you do realize how easily a howie is killed right? 1 nade from camo'd stormtroopers will definitly kill the crew and probaly the gun it self. a flakpanzer can easily charge in and kill howies insanely fast. you gotta remember howies arent mobile, arty or rocket them to hell with nebels stukas or call in arty or rockets, they are rather easy to kill and cost a whole butt load to make. the person making them likely has little or no army to protect them

[xanupox]

I am seeing many ignorant replies to my original post. I will attempt to answer and correct them as best as I can.

Points by order are:

#1 Getting snipers or stormtroopers in there to take them "Howitzers" out.

This never works, for many reasons such as the team with the howitzers have a line of barbed wire up, tank traps behind that, with another row of wire behind that from one side of the map to the other, the allies lock thier wire/traps into hard terrain to minimize the amount needed to use to get the lockdown job accomplished...so, there is no way a sniper/trooper can get thru the wire. Every inch of the wire is covered by MG nests, Jeeps, Bunkers etc. If you are planning on getting a unit thru the wire, then you need to have an assault force that can break through a part of their defenses and then HOPE the sniper/trooper can get past without being "auto revealed" by the defenses. I doubt that could be done since any large force capable of being able to "bust thru" is broadcasting itself as howitzer bait. If you did manage to kill a couple tank traps, that area would become a choke point of death for the axis team as it tried to funnel thru while being pounded by howitzer.



#2 Pop costs for Howitzer are so high if a player took 2 or more they would be unable to field an army.

Not really correct at all. A single player can build 3 Howitzers and level the other player completely on Semois, when you add another teammate on a 2v2 then the one player can easily make 4-6 howitzers and let his partner spread his manpower out across the line... however this is not even really needed. The howitzer player has such excessive manpower built up they usually spend it on making 20-30 MG bunkers with overlapping fields of fire everywhere on the map. So in the end, when the axis team has no HQ, no barracks and only a couple bunkers and a few shotup infantry units left on the map the only... "capable army" needed to win from that point is a few flame thrower engineers or a sniper to finish picking them all off.



#3 Axis tanks like the Panther and Panzer can just drive over those traps and go kill the howitzers.

That statement is 100% incorrect. The only way a axis player can destroy a tanktrap with a vehicle is by using a tiger, but then even a tiger slows down significantly when hitting the traps. If the allies have 5-6 rows of traps back to back it will almost make the tiger stop. 2-3 AT guns would then have enough time to obliterate the tiger and the surrounding MG nests and Mortar troops would decimate the troops being brought up with the tiger, if any. Also to note, once Axis HQ is down the tiger cannot be fielded in anyway by axis.


#4 One good Arty strike can clear out all the howitzer.

This may work ONCE, but axis defense doctrine 280mm Arty Strike has to have line of sight to fire. We have already established the unlikeliness of getting any unit past the allied defenses, if the allies were hit by a strike then they would know there is a sniper back there and he would be hunted down. This strike you speak of, costs the axis player 250 munitions as well. Not effective to counter 4-6 Howitzers that area spread out along the map. To counter just 4 in this manner, would take 1000 munitions. I doubt any axis player that is already being pounded by howitzer would be able to have that available.


Lastly, the same old arguments of players who have no idea... such as drive a panzer or panther over the traps... which will not work. The stromtrooper idea which cannot get past the wire, the "huge drain on allies" which it isnt.

I made my suggestions on how to fix it. Make it happen or leave it unbalanced.

[TheLoneKnight]

... How about just using the 'walking stuka' upgrade for halftracks? It does alot of damage, has fairly good range, and is mobile enough to get the heck out of the way before allied units run around to try and kill it.

If you're strapped for munitions, I imagine a Nebelwerfer rocket strike would work just as well.

Both can fire well outside the range of allied attacks and you can move them both before the howitzer can bombard their position. Neither require line-of-sight, either. Both are free to use as many times as you want.

[lordkosc]

I think they need a range reduction, that or when they do fire they give away thier position on the tactical map, like snipers do...

[Mirage Knight]

What about just limiting them so that they fuction like AT guns? No ability, fires an HE shell every 7 - 10 seconds or so...

Btw, I was under the impression that Howitzers did give away their position when they fired.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Not really correct at all. A single player can build 3 Howitzers and level the other player completely on Semois,

When was the last time anyone got 3 howitzers on Semois?

Howitzers sometimes give away their positions when they fire, not always. Not sure what controls it.

You can always sneak troops into them, done it before, had it done to me. But the highest success rate for destroying howitzers in my experience is the Raging Tiger.

[Etherealsilk]

#1 Getting snipers or stormtroopers in there to take them "Howitzers" out.

This never works, for many reasons such as the team with the howitzers have a line of barbed wire up, tank traps behind that, with another row of wire behind that from one side of the map to the other, the allies lock thier wire/traps into hard terrain to minimize the amount needed to use to get the lockdown job accomplished...so, there is no way a sniper/trooper can get thru the wire. Every inch of the wire is covered by MG nests, Jeeps, Bunkers etc. If you are planning on getting a unit thru the wire, then you need to have an assault force that can break through a part of their defenses and then HOPE the sniper/trooper can get past without being "auto revealed" by the defenses. I doubt that could be done since any large force capable of being able to "bust thru" is broadcasting itself as howitzer bait. If you did manage to kill a couple tank traps, that area would become a choke point of death for the axis team as it tried to funnel thru while being pounded by howitzer.

If the enemy has the time to do this then you haven't been playing the game up to that point. If you ever allow an enemy to build up their half the map to this extent then you deserve to loose. Period.

[Mac_Bug]

If the enemy has an impenetrable wall protecting his howitzers then you've pretty much lost anyway

[Valkeller]

Sorry to say so but I have to agree with “Etherealsilk”, that kind of defensive position your describing take some time to buildup and to be harsh if you let your opponents use their time and manpower in building such huge defensive lines you haven’t been nearly aggressive enough during the start of the game, it should be you standing in the middle bombing his :censored: off with some “Nebelwerfers”. Alternative is for you not standing there at all just keep pushing with your forces until you reach his base, then “run over” your opponent.

I mean you can’t have this outcome every time you play?!

Personally I don’t think it’s anything wrong with the allies “Howitzers” there supposed to shot long range. “Nebelwerfers” don’t shot as long but then the Axis has more blowing :censored: up abilities than the Allies do, or?

I play Axis all the time and had a run in with some “Howitzers” last night and yeah you take a beating but if you keep pushing it won’t help him anyway, as long as you don’t stand still with all of your units the loses aren’t that big.

But then again I can be wrong wouldn’t be the first time..

[terracomm7]

I managed to use Howitzers effectively, I concentrated on mass engineer squads to take points and build all my defensive enclosures wihle my ally harrassed with airborne. I teched up fast enough to get to howitzers, the Axis players were tank massing but it was no good as they had no Tigers at the frontline ( tank traps everywhere ). It was just a bottleneck where mass howitzer rounds pounded on them, I think after a minute or two there were eight destroyed tanks lying there.

It was not even expensive to set up those howitzers and with a lot of protection near the railroad area on the map it was easy to counter anything that came close with AP rounds on AT guns / sticky and barbed wire / tank trap lines.

The only problem was after I started shooting Howitzer rounds at their base the game suddenly disconnected and caused me a loss. : /

[stumpster]

I can safely say that in the ~90 games I've played, none of them have ever been won or lost due to Howitzers being overpowered. Even on Semois where I've got about ~20 ranked games in and ~10 non-ranked games in.

Are they effective? Yes, and they should be.

Are they the end-all unit? No. I believe that you are overstating their effectiveness just like people overstated the Tiger's effectiveness at first.

[xanupox]

People seem to think it takes a long time to get up tanktraps and wire. It does not. I can have the entire map of HILL the 6 player map barbed off in less than 4 minutes with 6 engineers. That stops anything shy of a AC from getting past it. Until that happens, tank traps are going up behind the wire, then more wire behind the traps.

Use the landscape to connect the wire/traps. There is actually very LITTLE you need to put down if you use the hillsides/impasses and tree lines to your advantage.

On smaller maps, it is even easier. On St Hillare I can block off the entire enemy army with 4 pieces of barbed wire about 30 foot long each.

Once you block off the enemy, you win.

[Valkeller]

Yeah cause you can't cut the wire since you're Axis?
And by 4-5 minutes you should allready have controll over the middle, and if you can do that in 4 minutes why do you have this problem?

I don't belive that you know better then all whom have posted in you're thread?

[EDIT]: I think the attitude of this thread is beginning to be little unpleasant. So way don’t we try to turn it around.

And sorry for my own actions/words.

[Shizzle007]

@xanupox: DUde, since fighting is almost always around the middle i dont know how you can get so much barbed wire and tank traps up in the hill map. When i get 2 fking motorcycles you cant do shit with your engineers. Only a noob let you build up so much barbed wire and tank traps.
By the time you get all your barbed wire (supose i didnt notice and didnt send any troops to the middle and sat idle in my base) i get armored cars and stugs before you get tank traps all over the place. And then its gg for you since 2 players spamming stugs and AC's will easily beat one player with shermans and rifles. (since you cant do anything you have to save up for 5-6 howizers remember?)
And then, if you get 6 howizers??? WTF 6, you wont have an army to support them as said. You have to save all the time for the howi's. IF your not beaten yet when you have that, you obviously played a big noob who just sat iin his base and didnt understand anything about this game.

if he cant reach your base, they seem a bit weak too. If I play axis, i usually have motorbikes nearby, so snipers wont get close and move my tanks around all the time. I once had a very long game, and the guy just stopped using howizers cos he didnt do shit to my moving army.

Again im stating this: vs any little skilled player YOU CANT BUILD TANK TRAPS AND BARBED WIRE EVERYWHERE. Explain to me how you can, I usually get motorbikes, and motorbikes own engie squads in seconds. After that I get volks, mg squads and later i get stugs. SO how the fu ck can you take 4-6 min to build barbed wire everywhere while these guys are shooting at you. you must have some pretty tough engineers.
Btw any good player will take all the fuel points at the hill map with mg squads so you prolly have to fight to get those back or you wont build any howizers at all.

[DatonKallandor]

Halftracks can crush barbed wire earlier than ACs. Pioneers can cut the wire as soon as Axis hits T2. Your engineers will be busy doing nothing but barbing up the place - while Axis takes the entire map. You won't even have the fuel to get howitzers.


Daton

[c4dillon]

Isn't it pretty painfully obvious that if any more than 1 howitzer is able to be deployed on semois axis have pretty much lost the game -well- before that happened in the first place?

I've been on both sides of the fence enough times to know that they're -well- balanced. It takes a chunk of your forces to really defend them completely and if you've diverted that much manpower/fuel/CAP to the howitzers + any kind of defense force for them, 1v1 You're going to be getting spanked all over the rest of the map unless you already have a fair amount of dominance.

[Pengu]

No howitzers are not the end of axis on semois. You do have to watch for it though. Really though howitzers only finish people off on semois. If you control the center and they start artillarying you a counter artillary barrage will whipe it out extremely easily.

Xanu I don't know who you've been playing, but some one is obviosuly playing wrong. There is no way to build any sort of extensive fortivications over a large area. Tank traps are used to cut off chokepoints. large scale tanktrapping takes ages unless you have nothing but engineers. If you do have nothing but engineers by mid game you have lost. Barbed wire can be spammed extensively, but in the long run is ineffective. It is primarily used at chokepoints in the early game to cut off the enemy.

[FalseMyrmidon]

I had some Allied player sit in his base on Semois and build 4 Howitzers against me. It was annoying but didn't help him win since I controlled most of the map. I really think he would have been better off building a few tanks.

[Ozendorph]

Letting your opponent field (and somehow defend) 4-6 howitzers will get your base smashed? Unpossible!

btw, I've noticed that if I allow my Axis opponent to gain total map control and roll up on my base with 6-10 heavy tanks, they crush my defenses easily. Imba!!!11one

[Shizzle007]

I find howizers only trule effective when playing vs axis defensive doctrine in team games. They tend to place 88's on very strategic places. Since they spend resources on 88 s too and since theyr really annoying to take out if they are protected by flaks and bunkers. Its alot fun to let him build up those super defenses and then bomb it to pieces with the howi's :damnu:
Infantry is tHE counter to axis defense doctrine imo

[AntiCommie]

The only problem I have with Howitzers is that they are overpowered against the defensive tree. 88s are just expensive howitzer targets, and bunkers are all but useless, making most of the advantages of the defensive tree null. You also dont need more then 2 to do this. If you place one in your base you can get coverage on most of the map, and this howitzer is fairly easy to defend. Once you get a good forward position setup build another closer to the front and just bombard away. This wouldnt work against a good blitz player, tigers ignore defenses and storms are excellent at sneaking in and killing howitzers, but Dtree doesnt get either of these options, and using a rocket barrage (A 7 point power+250 munitions?) seems like a lot to have to get. Terror can use firestorm and V1s(Overkill, but fun) or go the tiger route. Saying that, I personally feel all arty is overpowered. 2 Walking stuka are almost as good and dont need to worry about counterbattery.

[Shizzle007]

they can adjust it, that you actually have to see your target to do arty on it. so scouting would be necesairy (of course in team games this can be ignored by using scout planes) But i think that they would become too weak then.
A way to make 88's stronger is to make them invisible to scouting planes, and invisible when theyr shooting from fog of war.

[Demon_Eyes]

Nothing is overpowered about the howitzer, if there is constant fighting you will never see a full defensive line built.

[AntiCommie]

I like the idea that 88's are invisible to planes and while shooting from fog. Especially for how expensive they are. Worst case, make it an upgrade to add camo netting.

[Ozendorph]

camo netting upgrade would be pimp...that's a pretty good solution to that particular matchup problem.

[xanupox]

Howitzer range is just too long.

Howitzer FIRE RATE is just too fast for being a COST FREE attack.

To me a howitzer shot is just as devastating as the V2 Rocket, except its FREE and does not require line of sight.

So overpowered.

---

Everyone screams to counter with Walking Stutkas or Nebels, which is impossible when the Infantry guy opens with 3-6 Howitzers on your productions buildings in his first shot. When the howitzers are spread out you cannot take them all out even if you can get to them.

If you kill the crew, it can get remanned with a team of engineers.

[AntiCommie]

If you let them build 3-6 of them, something is wrong. Also, Howitzers cant move, use that to your advantage. If you kill the crew and control the spot, you too can reman it and bomb his base.

[Shizzle007]

lol its impossible to make it clear to xanu, in competative games you get MAX 1 howizers for support against defenses or idle infantry/tank groups. Cos in competative games, pple understand how the game works and play aggressivly, move all the time and attack. Its impossible to get 3-6 howizers when your enemy does that. Comprendre? :wave: :deal:

In bigger maps you have to put them in the middle to make them aim at base buildings, which is impossible cos they will get shot.

[Cias]

just stop trying to explain it to him, he wont understand no matter how hard anyone tries

[KON Air]

Everyone screams to counter with Walking Stutkas or Nebels, which is impossible when the Infantry guy opens with 3-6 Howitzers on your productions buildings in his first shot. When the howitzers are spread out you cannot take them all out even if you can get to them.


So you just don't nudge the camera to view your hq from different angles while they rack up 5 command points but you also let them scout your base and just leave them to reman the howitzer... news flash, your men can reman the howitzers too. If you are that desperate to take it out man it yourself...

And on that I wire/tanktrap entire map under four minutes... yes, that might happen against 3v1 easy ai. Where two other players will have to sandbag off the hq and kill all poineers while you are building fancy decoration around the map.

[MadCatChiken]

#1 Getting snipers or stormtroopers in there to take them "Howitzers" out.

This never works, for many reasons such as the team with the howitzers have a line of barbed wire up, tank traps behind that, with another row of wire behind that from one side of the map to the other, the allies lock thier wire/traps into hard terrain to minimize the amount needed to use to get the lockdown job accomplished...so, there is no way a sniper/trooper can get thru the wire. Every inch of the wire is covered by MG nests, Jeeps, Bunkers etc. If you are planning on getting a unit thru the wire, then you need to have an assault force that can break through a part of their defenses and then HOPE the sniper/trooper can get past without being "auto revealed" by the defenses. I doubt that could be done since any large force capable of being able to "bust thru" is broadcasting itself as howitzer bait. If you did manage to kill a couple tank traps, that area would become a choke point of death for the axis team as it tried to funnel thru while being pounded by howitzer.



#2 Pop costs for Howitzer are so high if a player took 2 or more they would be unable to field an army.

Not really correct at all. A single player can build 3 Howitzers and level the other player completely on Semois, when you add another teammate on a 2v2 then the one player can easily make 4-6 howitzers and let his partner spread his manpower out across the line... however this is not even really needed. The howitzer player has such excessive manpower built up they usually spend it on making 20-30 MG bunkers with overlapping fields of fire everywhere on the map. So in the end, when the axis team has no HQ, no barracks and only a couple bunkers and a few shotup infantry units left on the map the only... "capable army" needed to win from that point is a few flame thrower engineers or a sniper to finish picking them all off.



#3 Axis tanks like the Panther and Panzer can just drive over those traps and go kill the howitzers.

That statement is 100% incorrect. The only way a axis player can destroy a tanktrap with a vehicle is by using a tiger, but then even a tiger slows down significantly when hitting the traps. If the allies have 5-6 rows of traps back to back it will almost make the tiger stop. 2-3 AT guns would then have enough time to obliterate the tiger and the surrounding MG nests and Mortar troops would decimate the troops being brought up with the tiger, if any. Also to note, once Axis HQ is down the tiger cannot be fielded in anyway by axis.


#4 One good Arty strike can clear out all the howitzer.

This may work ONCE, but axis defense doctrine 280mm Arty Strike has to have line of sight to fire. We have already established the unlikeliness of getting any unit past the allied defenses, if the allies were hit by a strike then they would know there is a sniper back there and he would be hunted down. This strike you speak of, costs the axis player 250 munitions as well. Not effective to counter 4-6 Howitzers that area spread out along the map. To counter just 4 in this manner, would take 1000 munitions. I doubt any axis player that is already being pounded by howitzer would be able to have that available.

Thats just stupid.. your saying that cos some guy had good defenses around some howitzers that means they're overpowerd??.... Use engineers to cut the wire then send in the troops.... or just use 1 or 2 nebels... also that the fact his defenses are realy small.. you wipe the guys manning then capture them.

[Pengu]

lol its impossible to make it clear to xanu, in competative games you get MAX 1 howizers for support against defenses or idle infantry/tank groups. Cos in competative games, pple understand how the game works and play aggressivly, move all the time and attack. Its impossible to get 3-6 howizers when your enemy does that. Comprendre? :wave: :deal:

In bigger maps you have to put them in the middle to make them aim at base buildings, which is impossible cos they will get shot.
I wouldn't say its impossible to get 2-3 howitzers, excessivelly hard yes, but not impossable. What is impossable is to be able to defend them in a normal game the way xanu is talking about. Admitably i'm not terribly good endgame. I tend to build up defenses of vp's a bit excessively, and thats why some times my enemies can do that. That said they were never in a position where using arty would do them any good.

Xanu there is no other way to say it other than you are playing way too passively. If you make the terms the enemy fights on they will find it hard to field 1 howitzer. I have played games on semois where its been such a meat grinder in the middle with neither of us wanting to give it up that we were using volks and riflemen almost exclusively for 20 minutes at which point I stormed him with stuh4's and stormtroopers. So i'll put it to you this way. If you play defensively your enemy will be able to afford howitzers. If you play aggresively they will be rare and still extremely counterable. If you ever let your opponent get 6 howitzers in a rediculously defended position YOU HAVE LOST! You deserve to lose too.

Lets get some basic facts out there just to explain this too you more clearly.
On hill the only place artillary can hit bases from is right down the middle of the map. Guess what? This area should be in one of 3 states. In conflict, this means if they build them there its very risky and no one will wast 450 manpower on that. You have control, they can't build them there then now can they? They own it, guess what!? Your allready losing and thats just the nail in the coffin.
St hillaire they'd need to be again at the middle of the map. Same results as above.
Megeachen(or what ever its called)
Similar results as above with the only difference being that because of all the hedges and such counter artillary is extremely effective.
Semois they can fire from any where on the map. Guess what though, its a 1 v1 if you let them stockpile that much mapower you've been twiddiling your thumbs all game.

There is no imbalance! You're just thinking theres one because you play too defensively.

[Valkeller]

“xanupox” I’ve got an idea instead of you arguing about this why don’t you explain how you start of your game and what you’re doing during the game (perhaps a playback in the thread that belongs?), so that we instead can tell you what your doing wrong?

In this way you would get tips on how you can change you’re strategy towards the better instead of saying it’s unbalanced.

I really think you should start thinking about how you express you’re self because some people in here including me are beginning to be a bit annoyed.

:cranky:

[Shizzle007]

I guess hes gonna make another post how he builds tank traps and how 3-6 howizers are op, and why we dont understand that lol. IN that case this topic should be deleted.