The Nebelwerfer: somebody help me.

[Victrix Legio]

At this moment, I am at a complete loss as to why anyone, under any circumstances, would ever use the nebelwerfer. Ever. It is, in my experience at least, the most useless unit in the game, bar none; it never seems to hit anything, and when it does hit, it doesn't seem to do any damage. I have wanted, oh so very badly, to like this weapon, to somehow justify spending 385 MP on it, but I just can't, not when I have mortars that actually manage to hit and damage something on occasion, and most certainly not when I have the Walking Stuka, which does a magnificent job of blowing stuff up from range.

If there's anyone, anyone at all, who knows how to use these things properly, pop into this thread and say something. Call me a noob, if you must, call me a fool, if you are so inclined, but please, in the name of all that is good and filled with explosions, share with me your arcane axis artillery acumen.

[stumpster]

Sir, you are correct in my opinion. Even with some of the recent changes to make the Nebelwerfer more accurate, it is the most pointless weapon that either team can field as this point.

[lordkosc]

I've found out they work best in sets of 2 or 3 , they don't miss as much that way! I've also noticed they work well for clearing tank traps and such and harassing enemy munitions and fuel points.

I wish it would have a small propaganda effect where it hits, as it would if not kill the troops at least scare the ones left alive away, lol...

The Nebelwerfer sure is loud when it fires! I get a little scared!

[Valkeller]

“Victrix Legio” there are no need for calling you a “noob” we have all been there sometime.

To answer your question the best use for “Nebelwefers” as is for mortars to is to have two of them (or 3), you get more effect towards your target and remember that this isn’t tank killing units. The main reason to use them is to disturb the Allies advancement and kill infantry (works fine against AT guns) or using them for your own advancement.

“Nebelwefers” do spread out it’s rockets but if you have two the total would be 12 rockets and that makes an impression on the Allied forces. I think upgrading your support units skill will make them more accurate but I don’t know for sure.

So I say use them! But not only them mix your units!

[n0z3k1ll3r]

Aim it at something like a clump of troops, a mass of tanks, or a big patch of defenses. That way your bound to hit something. Remember its free to shoot once you have it and the range isn't too bad either.

[Albi]

I've found out they work best in sets of 2 or 3 , they don't miss as much that way! I've also noticed they work well for clearing tank traps and such and harassing enemy munitions and fuel points.

I wish it would have a small propaganda effect where it hits, as it would if not kill the troops at least scare the ones left alive away, lol...

The Nebelwerfer sure is loud when it fires! I get a little scared!
Dude, that is like over 1000MP.

Still not worth it. :P

[lordkosc]

Hehe I always have lots of manpower left over after my games :) Last 2 hour game I played my manpower was in the 6000-7000 range :)

[Skyward]

Nebelwerfer should atleast have bigger splash against infantry, unless you aren't getting headshots with the rockets, it's no use.

[sandzibar]

Nebelwerfer should atleast have bigger splash against infantry, unless you aren't getting headshots with the rockets, it's no use.
QFT.

[theBlind]

Indeed, get walking stukas instead. Sure they cost a LOAD of munitions but they retain the infantry reinforcement ability, have better mobility and will serve you as transports before upgrading them.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

It might just be my imagination, but the Stuka zu Fuss seems to be better against infantry while the Nebelwerfer performs better against tanks. I'm pretty sure I've seen a sherman get wasted from a single Nebel rocket landing on the roof.

[theBlind]

Indeed? That would be a nice touch, I'll have to try that.

[Valkeller]

“theBlind” doesn’t it take longer to get “walking stukas” then “nebelwefers”? Isn’t it like Tier4? (really don’t know)

[fldash]

As others have said, I use them in the late game once I have lots of manpower stored up to finish off any enemy defensive positions. They work best in groups of 2 or 3. ;)

[theBlind]

Sure it takes longer and the halftracks come from the krieg barracks. But since I usually build a krieg barracks and then go to T4, the stukas zu fuß complement my usual strategy perfectly.
If I absolutely need a stopgap messure, I buy a mortar.

[Valkeller]

OK, that works.

I don’t build the “krieg barracks” that’s way I go for the “nebelwefer” and usually build them rather quick, like one “stug” then a “nebelwefer” or 2 “stugs”.

I’ve seen the ”walking stuka” in action and it got kind of the same range the biggest difference seems to be bigger “bangs” and fever rockets and also the faster movement ability (better accuracy).

[EDIT]: Yeah my misstake now when you say it, I know there is 6 on the "stuka" and i think it's the same with "nebelwefers".

[XkaOnslaught]

unless im much mistaken... then nebelwefer and the walking stuka, both has got 6 rocket salvos per barrage...

[BlackLabel]

I dont mess around that much with nebelz. The germans have the most expensive artillery ingame IMO. I rather build a Sdkfz. with launchers. Casue you can reeinforce troops with it. On the other hand booth suit theyr role.

[Souvarine]

I've used up to 3 of these together to no good effect. Since i often pick up the "defensive" strat with axis, i hoped these would complement my defense lines, but they actually contributed to my demise as the enemy could just bypass the barrage.

It's not much their accuracy, but rather the damage that i find dubious. Nebelwerfers were terror weapons, they should at least pin units around their effect.

[XkaOnslaught]

actually it does. i was playing online an hour ago, i had 3 nebels stacked up in the middle of the map, and was spamming barrages down their HQ. the men that was in the area i saw showed the Pinned! signs .. so i am guessing it nebels work quite good to pinn squads down

im going to try 3 moaning minnies tml and see what happens. with the comming of the new SP demo with skirmish, testing will be a whole lot easier :)

[NovaBurn]

I've seen the nebelewerfers used quite well in some of the axis games that I have played with. As for what as been said before they work quite well in a grouping of 2-3 and for taking out defensive or in some cases the poor soul who massed all his forces in one area and spamming the hell out of them. I've seen it take out a few tanks in barrage before when catching someone off guard. One important thing that helps them is getting their veterany level up. This helps TREMENDOUSLY with the nebz, making them fucking deadly to any mass of forces. Not only does damage done go up, but also range and the accuracy of the fire.

[XkaOnslaught]

i simply cannot get enough of the moaning sounds when the nebels fire their rockets.

True Terror ;)

[Victrix Legio]

According to that PlanetCOH unit guide, all the various veterancy ranks do for the nebelwerfer is increase its health and reduce the amount of damage it takes. If that's incorrect and they do increase its damage and accuracy as well then great, though that would also draw into question the rest of the information on unit veterancy found there, which means a thorough reexamination of the "uselessness" of infantry and vehicle veterancy upgrades for the Axis is in order. Whatever the case, I'm going to try and test out the nebelwerfer and other units when I can get my hands on the optimized SP demo.

[Souvarine]

Weird i don't hear the moaning :(

I have old ww2 tapes with them firing, the noise is completely mind-numbing.

[AntiCommie]

I usually dont build them either. Stuka are much more usefull. I usually use them in groups of 2 and stagger the barrage so it overlaps a little. I noticed they seem to get a lot more accurate with experience also.

[theBlind]

Souvarine, can you make a recording of that?

[Victrix Legio]

OK, just ran a couple tests in skirmish with an easy computer opponent. Here are the conclusions I reached:

1. Veterancy levels have no appreciable effect on accuracy or damage; they suck at hitting anything whether they're elite or raw.

2. Rockets do laughable damage to everything, but especially to armor; a quite literally point blank fire of two nebs against a Sherman actually resulted in a couple direct hits and a three or four near hits, the total resulting damage of which was something like 5% of the Sherman's total HP, if even that.

3. There is no secret, synergistic effect with multiple nebs that dramatically increases their power; they suck as much in groups as they do alone.

4. The graphic for the 150mm rockets' splash damage is rather misleading, as virtually no damage is inflicted on structures or units on the outer edge of the blast.

5. It takes several, near direct hits to kill even a single member of a stationary mortar unit; god only knows how many barrages it would take to polish off a rifleman squad.

Ultimately, the nebelwerfer is a POS no matter what you do with it. I would rather be equipped with trebuchets flinging f@#!ng rocks, that's how bad these things are.

[KON Air]

I still prefer Nebels over Stukas, I prefer munitions to use one more commander ability over a Stuka any time.

[FatalTheRabbit]

Kon, a stuka rocket can take something like 1/3 of the health of a pershing(I remember because it was my last 1/3!!!!), and 1 direct hit on a rifle squad will kill all but 1 or 2 members, and may even do in the whole squad.

nebels don't compare at all to stukas. The nebelwerfer is a strange unit. It's redundant with the stuka, AND it sucks...

Makes you wonder what the developers are thinking. I wish they would actually let us know once in a while instead of keeping us in the dark.

[KON Air]

30 sec reload, has odds of getting only the crew killed, only uses manpower and the plus 150 munitions saved. It doesn't worth sinking 150 munitions while playing Blitz (or depend on commander skills heavily but I guess you can simply go ahead and spam stuka with defensive branch), I prefer sneaksy Strums with tossing grenades around to take out distant targets and later Tiger gives the edge. To make sure I can always call in a Tiger I keep using resource blitz (and will keep using anyway, if manpower ever exceed +300)

So yes, Stuka beats Nebel on almost every aspect but if you heavily depend on munitions say no to stuka.

[Holmium]

I love walking stukas, having 5 - 6 of them behind my tanks, raining down a huge barrage that destroys EVERYTHING. *grin*

[Demon_Eyes]

5-6 halftracks would mean not a lot of tanks though! ;)

[XkaOnslaught]

lol i made a typo in the previous post, its not "moaning" sounds , but "droning" sounds... which led to the Allies nicknaming the nebelwefers "Moaning Minnie". :)

[theBlind]

I agree with Victrix Legios findings. I had a nice, clear 1on1 and build 5 nebelwerfers, shooting at the enemy base. They did pretty much nothing (i think less than 3 infantry kills), while stukas would have leveled the base - I did that often enough to know.


Sure the stuka costs you more, but it will perform accordingly.

[XkaOnslaught]

if one were to compare a rocket and a artillary shell, which do you think will do more damage?

[nintendogs]

Just tried out some nebels. Worthless. Absolutely. Managed to run off an engineer squad capping one of my points but a bike would have done the same.

[XkaOnslaught]

i think what sets apart the nebels from the allied howitzers is that allied witzers takes quite a long time for each shell to to actually hit the area. whereas the nebels have a shorter delay between each rocket. so im guessing its harder for the enemy to escape a nebel barrage, as per witzers.

[nintendogs]

You don't NEED to escape a nebel barrage. They don't hit anything. Five firing into one location barely does anything except create a pretty light show. Stuka are far more effective.

[XkaOnslaught]

i guess either the devs have to buff up the splash damage of the nebels or they make them more accurate.. =/

[Brat_Boy]

I like them far more than Mortars (which in my opinion are quite weak) because they are much longer range, they fire faster (both the salvo vs. 1 shot at a time for mortars, and setting up and firing quicker), and they are much more effective against infantry. Mainly I like them because the rockets get to the enemy in a very short time unlike mortars (approx. 2 seconds as opposed to about 4) after firing, and they have a more explosive effect. For this reason, I love using them against advancing infantry and on AT crews. They're also good for just keeping the enemy from setting up a fortification, which mortars can do as well (And in some ways better, since they fire constantly).

Edit: And yes, I agree stukas are far more effective (same range, same reload time, same number of rockets, but more accurate and more damage), but they cost more Munitions too, which are harder to come by than manpower.

[Victrix Legio]

I'm pretty sure the rockets the nebelwerfers use are packed with the same happy-funtime-child-safe form of explosive that the stielhandgranates use, as opposed to the thermobaric/cobalt/holy hand grenades the Allies have at their disposal.

[lordkosc]

I'm pretty sure the rockets the nebelwerfers use are packed with the same happy-funtime-child-safe form of explosive that the stielhandgrantes use, as opposed to the thermobaric/cobalt/holy hand grenades the Allies have at their disposal.

Lol..... I think the allies have sticky handgrenades, because they never seem to miss even if I move my troops!

Anyway

:focus:

I think the neblewerfers are better than most are saying , I will try and get some target practice in soon.

[MrBims]

I'm afraid I must concur with the Nebel-haters. I have actually lost 2 or 3 games because I wasted money on Nebels that could've been used on Stugs. One of my more successful base assault strategies has been mass stormtroopers + Stuh 42s with support from 2 Walking Stukas. The 300 munitions cost ensures I don't have resources to use on grenades or panzerfausts since I never leave weapons unupgraded, but it's worth it. Just 3 barrages from 2 Stukas - 2 minutes and 15 seconds of firing - can destroy up to 4 non-HQ buildings. I've taken out bunkers with just 1 barrage. Nebelwerfers, on the other hand, have problems taking out several squads of riflemen clumped together in an open field. They have worse accuracy than an infantry mortar, don't seem to do nearly as much damage, and are susceptible to jeep, riflemen and sniper fire. All your opponet needs to do is kill those three unarmored infantry, and he's effectively taken out 385 manpower. I have trouble justifying the price of Knights Cross Holders, and Nebels don't even have any defenses or a Retreat button.

Simply not worth building. It needs an advantage over the Stuka: Stukas have the ability to reinforce, are far more mobile, can be repaired in the field, require AP bursts or anti-tank weapons to destroy quickly, and are far more damaging. What should the Nebel do that the Stuka can't?

[XkaOnslaught]

get captured by the enemy :D, thought i think its not even worth capturing :P

[Victrix Legio]

Here are my thoughts on the matter:

1. Up the Nebel's direct and splash damage by a ton load against infantry and by a good amount against buildings and light vehicles. Against armor, direct hits should do pretty good damage, but splash damage should do next to nothing.

2. Increase the nebel's accuracy by a moderate amount when conducting observed fire; in the FOW, keep it as it is.

3. Increase the setup and pack up time for the nebelwerfer, as they're actually probably too fast right now.

4. Increase the reload time for the barrage by 10 seconds BUT decrease the reload time for every new veterancy upgrade by five seconds.

That's just why I can come up with right now, feel free to shoot some/all of my suggestions down if you think they're foolish.

[XkaOnslaught]

i think we should add in 5. cause Supression status on troops in the splash damage areas.

[Coey]

6.When fired, all enemy infantry within a wide radius of the Nebel become pinned, to simulate how terrifying these things really were.

[MrBims]

6.When fired, all enemy infantry within a wide radius of the Nebel become pinned, to simulate how terrifying these things really were.

I agree whole heartedly. If it can't kill infantry as well as the Stuka, it should atleast be able to render those infantry effectively useless by auto-pinning. Allies can do it to us with BARs, why shouldn't we have a counter?

And if it's too powerful then, we can add this:

7. Exclusively available to Terror doctrine. Replace Propaganda War with Nebelwerfers for a 2 point cost.

[XkaOnslaught]

and then for other axis trees the nebels does suppression instead of pinning :)

[KON Air]

Aren't you people are overreacting a bit. You get a beefed up mortar for +125, not an Axis Howtizer... and excuse me but "do not do damage any damage at all" is just plain wrong, lower your expetations.


1. Up the Nebel's direct and splash damage by a ton load against infantry and by a good amount against buildings and light vehicles. Against armor, direct hits should do pretty good damage, but splash damage should do next to nothing.
That's just funny this removes the reason of walking stukas existance and there is no way getting such a weapon with only manpower and I can already hear you whine not wanting to pay for man+mun+fuel for a nebel and it takes forever to build...

[Victrix Legio]

Nebels don't handle movement well, have a completely unprotected crew, don't do jack shit for damage against ANYTHING, are incapable of sustained fire, and cost more MP than anything else the Axis can field at Tier 3, MP that could right now be much better spent on Pumas to fend off the inevitable rifleman spam or StuGs to fend off Quad 50s and the superpowered Shermans that drive around behind my AT guns and laugh at my upgraded Grenadier squads as they blow them apart. No Kon, I don't think what I'm proposing will render the Walking Stuka obsolete, because a nebel is only going to be useful in a defensive position, against fixed fortifications, or against an enemy who's stupid enough not to send a single sniper out to wipe out the crew. The Walking Stuka is still going to be the better option for anyone on the offensive, because it can move fast, can reinforce troops, and is still going to do more damage to just about everything, especially armor, which the nebel will have to make a direct hit on to even dent. I don't like useless units, whatever army they may happen to be in, and the nebelwerfer, right now, is useless, no matter how you look at it.

[Skyward]

The thing is useless as it is at the moment, but if a single nebelwerfer manages to kill couple of atgun crews and mgs. It's well worth it, it's like longer range mortar. It may also be used to lure enemy in to attack, but the thing seems ultimately obselete compared to walking stuka.

[Souvarine]

I wish i had the instrument to do the recording...the sound is like a blend of as a reversed stuka siren and a tie fighter. That said, i have no means to know if the sound i have is genuine or if the sound was edited in (as with many ww2 movies) from another source.

In anyways, if it did sound like that, i'd have nightmares for years.

Just for info, the nebelwerfers were always towed by trucks or sdkfz, and deployed like most field artillery. They could fire high explosive charges as well as smoke charges to provide screens and even incendiary charges (now -that- would be interesting in CoH).

[XkaOnslaught]

i believe the sound is real . can it be classified as a "droning" sound? i think it does :)

Nuthin beats the sound of the Moaning Minnie in the Mornin' :P

[sandzibar]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7fU3iTk9gA

nebel sound at around 40 sec mark. managed to capture a wav of it. shame its so low quality. will mod it in once we get some tools.

[XkaOnslaught]

perhaps you can use some instruments to recreate those sounds? off course, that would be the last resort,the video is awsome though, and i get to hear the nebel's droning sounds for real :)

[MrBims]

Aren't you people are overreacting a bit. You get a beefed up mortar for +125, not an Axis Howtizer... and excuse me but "do not do damage any damage at all" is just plain wrong, lower your expetations.

Beefed up mortar? It does less damage than a mortar! The only advantage it has over the mortar is twice the range. That's it. The mortar does better damage over time (Nebel requires 45 seconds inbetween firing), moves faster, costs less Population Cap, can Retreat when under fire, can recieve cover bonuses, can capture points, has better Veterancy upgrades, much better accuracy, etcetera. For 385 manpower you get something that is less effective than a cheaper redundant unit. You are just plain wrong.

[FatalTheRabbit]

That's a pretty nasty sound. Reminds me of tie fighters from starwars.

[theBlind]

Agreed on that sound. But did you see that the nebelwerfer fired horizontally?

[Mirage Knight]

There's a good reason nebeltruppen often referred to the 15cm Nebelwerfer 41 by the nickname "Heulende Kuh" (Howling Cow) :p

Edit: Did you guys also notice that the crew wasn't anywhere NEAR the launcher when it was fired?

[XkaOnslaught]

so the axis called then the "Howling cow"? hah.. and the allies called them "Moaning Minnies"

[Mirage Knight]

"Howling Cow" was also the nickname given to the rocket launchers used on the SdKfz. 251/1 "Stuka zu Fuss"

[XkaOnslaught]

well i have this book which is quite nice to read, and it has info on both the nebel and the walking stuka, actually for their rockets:

http://img351.imageshack.us/img351/728/scan0002un6.th.jpg (http://img351.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scan0002un6.jpg)
http://img425.imageshack.us/img425/9606/scan0001gw3.th.jpg (http://img425.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scan0001gw3.jpg)

[[]inveigle[]]

I fielded 5 in my most recent game vs a comp in the sp demo and it is indeed useless.

[XkaOnslaught]

i usualy build nebels for the lols.. i like their sound too much to not build them XD

[lordkosc]

i usualy build nebels for the lols.. i like their sound too much to not build them XD

I like to watch the rockets squiggle up into the air :)

[Valkeller]

I did a post about a playback in this thread..


http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=106249&page=2 (http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=106249&page=2)

EDIT: here is the playback (http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?p=1711737#post1711737)
(http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=106249&page=2)

[Borat]

I've just watched that video that sandzibar posted; why the hell didn't relic use the real sound of the nebelwerfer firing? The real sound has a much deeper and more vicious tone, whilst the one in the game sounds like someone letting off a series of cheap July 4th/Guy Fawkes Night rockets (which could actually be the case, as they presently do about as much damage :haha: ).


EDIT: Just to add, in reality the Calliope was the Allies answer to the various forms of rocket-artillery fielded by the Germans. It was based on technology used on the Russian Katyusha (which in turn were simple rocket-tubes mounted originally to a Studebaker truck). In practice, the Caliope was inferior in every respect to it's German counterpart in terms of firepower, range and accuracy. Which begs the question: why have Relic got it so wrong in the game, when they've obviously researched these things? Balance is one thing, but what they've done borders on ridiculous. Surely reality should count for something?

[FalseMyrmidon]

i usualy build nebels for the lols.. i like their sound too much to not build them XD
I build them when I'm winning just because they make lots of pretty explosions.


Aren't you people are overreacting a bit. You get a beefed up mortar for +125, not an Axis Howtizer... and excuse me but "do not do damage any damage at all" is just plain wrong, lower your expetations.


That's just funny this removes the reason of walking stukas existance and there is no way getting such a weapon with only manpower and I can already hear you whine not wanting to pay for man+mun+fuel for a nebel and it takes forever to build...
No, if the Walking Stuka and Nebelwerfer did the same damage and everything the Stuka would still be better since it's way more mobile, harder to kill and can't be sniped/stolen.

[XkaOnslaught]

the nebelwefer and the walking stuka are completely different in the game, and in real life. their armements are also different. hence, you cannot make them completely similiar to each other. disagree? look at the thumbnails i posted earlier.

[FalseMyrmidon]

I was just using that as an example that the Stuka would still be useful IF they did they same damage.

[XkaOnslaught]

i wasn't refering to you :D

[theBlind]

Borat, the Caliope is a pure balance tool. Armor company has no artillery options aside from mortars and would be absolutely unable to take a properly fortified position without the Caliope.