[1.2 Balance] Mines are too expensive to use

[Frosty]

1 mine costs 25 munitions, right? As you will need more than one mine to get an "effective" minefield, you'll need to spend at least 100 - 150 munitions ... That's a little bit expensive for not even having the guarantee that they will ever do any damage.

By the way, i've heard rumours that mines increase your upkeep. If that is true, that's another reason not to make use of them and spend the munitions on command abilities and weapon upgrades instead.

[Victrix Legio]

Mines do have a minor upkeep, yes; I'm not entirely certain why mines require a manpower investment to stay buried in the ground, but they do.

[Vicious_CB]

one is usually all you need granted you put it in the right place.

[DrunkenOne]

The upkeep is stupid if true. Never really noticed it. Completely disagree about mines though, as they are ridiculously cheap and ridiculously powerful. Simple thinking allows you to place mines in places where its almost guaranteed they will be hit. 1 mine will usually take out a vehicles engine. 2 will kill it. A mine insta suppresses any squad that hits it and will usually kill a few members.

Basically effective mine whoring is one thing that seperates the good players from the normal ones.

[Raves]

I agree with the Drunk guy.

[damocles]

I agree with frosty - they are a little overpriced. Not much though. They need a decent price to stop the game deteriorating into minesweep. Or instead of a price drop, how about a blast radius increase? It's annoying seeing a unit of infantry walk into your carefully placed mine to only have one soldier die. Especially when you consider the graphic for mines is a group of three mines, but you only get the one bang.

Another issue is the HT rush - some well placed mines can stop this from happening, but at 25 muns a pop, most people aren't going to run a line of mines across their base entrances.

[Albi]

I agree with frosty - they are a little overpriced. Not much though. They need a decent price to stop the game deteriorating into minesweep. Or instead of a price drop, how about a blast radius increase? It's annoying seeing a unit of infantry walk into your carefully placed mine to only have one soldier die. Especially when you consider the graphic for mines is a group of three mines, but you only get the one bang.

Another issue is the HT rush - some well placed mines can stop this from happening, but at 25 muns a pop, most people aren't going to run a line of mines across their base entrances.
ONE!!!!!!111!!!!

Wow your lucky :P

Mine just scare them with a noise.

[Dingo69]

Personally I think mines are good, however there are some issues.

1.) there should be a split between anti personal and a tank mine, this way when a tank does run over a Anti Tank mine it does more that simply reduces a small bit of health but a larger damage and possible track/motor damage to slow it down until repaired.


2.) Has anyone else had an instance where you setup a mine field an infantry walk into it and the who section goes up?

3.) Yes mines are too expense for the damage they do.

[Architect]

I think its accurate and adjusted to what you pay and get from it.

Unlucky if you only kill one soldier but remember one AC or Stug over a mine = half health and damaged engine. That pays a lot.

[Sporky]

You don't lay a mine field, you just put one on a choke point and watch them do good tide turning damage.
Blowing up a tank's engine, instant killing an annoying raid greyhound or pinning down and possibly killing an infantry squad.
Which is not bad for a mere 25 munition

I believe each mine has 1mp upkeep

[CrossOrion]

The latest Tales of Heroes Podcast showed how a couple of mines turned the tables on Allied armor. Should have a look, if you think they are still 'too expensive' to use.

[lordkosc]

I agree with the upkeep issue, its stupid to keep paying for mines once they are planted.

[Timeless]

Any cheaper and they'd be free. 25 ammo a pop is SUPER cheap for what these can do.

[RT0RI]

I've seen a single mine drop an entire squad of Volks, armed with MP40s. I'd say it paid for itself.

[Starfisher]

Thread tagged.

[Bridger]

Upkeep does seem a little weird, but as was mentioned you shouldn't be building a "mine feild" with them.

Good places are right at the corners of buildings, as vehicals told to go to a location will always taket he shortest path, so will infantry. So they will always round the corner of a building, that's a choke point, even if it doesn't look like one.

You can see very effective mine placement in this week's Tales of Heroes video (http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/tohvideo/~5/34945468/ToH-4_Sepha_vs_Ahenian-10-8-06.wmv).

[Dingo69]

On the other hand I seen a squad walk into a mine filed and walk out with the lost on 1 man and the mine field gone. Why they decide to choose only 1 mine fits all and not 2 mines, one for infantry and one for AT is a bit funny.

When I say a minefield I normally mean a group of 3 lots of mines in a row to stop anyone getting past, obviously not the best thing to do in this game.

What is the best way of removing layed mines once the front has moved on and how to find them again is another good question. Maybe some dots on the map for their location special if you are using the greyhound to drop them around the place.

The fact that I got a bit annoyed about last night that a tiger rolled my whole front after going over my mines and 3 hits in the rear from my Persin tank did not help :-(



P.s What does Topic tagged mean, I take it that admins are watching this topic correct?

[Bridger]

No, it means he added the [1.2 Balance] tag to the title, because the OP didn't read the guidelines.

[Ahenian]

Minefields only exist in bigger team games and sick long 1v1s. Anyhow, mines are only "expensive" if you're using your munition on something else.

For referance, that Tales of Heroes replay which I happened to be in. I had over 500 munition in the end for mines. I didn't have anything else to use it on really. Few panzerfausts, few mp40 upgrades.

Unless you're spaming full upgraded grenadiers or droping firestorms on all engineers you see, you'll have more then enough munition for mines in important places. Assuming you're good enough to secure some high mun points for yourself.

Mine Fact: M8 mines are considerably more powerful than the 25 munition variant. Relics own balance team has said 1 m8 mine could blow up a full volk squad for example.

Mines can be used very offensively aswell. Every tried infantry company for the defensive operation skills? Plant a mine with your riflemen, fake a retreat and make the enemy go into the mine.

One thing you're maybe misunderstanding here. Are mines supposed to kill your enemy, or DISABLE them? Same thing applies for sticky bombs. Mines aswell stickys have that 99 % chance for damaged/destroyed engine which makes that tank easy pickings for your own tanks and/or at guns. Suffering from all your at guns getting flanked? Mine the approaches and their engine will be gone, making it easy for a at gun to finish it off.

This "disable" factor comes in effect aswell against infantry. The equalent for damaged engine/destroyed engine is suppressed/pinned. Don't you agree? Infantry almost always get suppressed/pinned from mines. I can name at the same time once a unit is suppressed/pinned with will remain so as long as its under fire. Doesn't matter if its a pioneer unit.

All in all, mines own. Making them anymore powerful and I'dd be in heaven. So go ahead, but note they're godly already.

[Timeless]

Good post, Ahenian.

[stopgap]

ya, i honestly have been underutilizing mines... but last game found that in a hedgerow map... 1 mine makes infantry cry.

[Albi]

Lowering the cost of mines will just make every game a minesweeper game.

They are fine as is, just a little weak sometimes, but that is the rusty old mines I use.

:D

[Demonic Spoon]

Good post Ahenian..but what if the infantry just retreat?

[c4dillon]

Mines are excellent - and it's important to think about the psychological effect a mine can have on your opponent. Most of the other forms of defense in the game are easily visible and that lets an opponent know what they need to counter it, but realistically, mines will be invisible to the other player (haven't seen a minesweeper unit once in mp)

They are great chokepoint tools with this method, since your opponent will be hesitant to take the same path that was mined once. On the other hand, they might figure the mine field is cleared now and charge in again, this is where mixing it up works great, put a mine back in the old field (now a crater) or even a little behind it...

They need some planning and a little luck to work right, but they are excellent for demoralizing and forcing the enemy to fight on -your- terms.

[Demonic Spoon]

Still, what is the use vs infantry? They can just run away, reinforce for 22 MP, and come back.

[CrossOrion]

If the mine is placed say.. in the front of a Victory point, forcing the enemy to run away and reinforce would gain you a lead in victory points. Gee, what's the use of forcing your enemy to retreat for 25 munitions?

[Demonic Spoon]

Not much considering they can come back 20 seconds later.

[Vicious_CB]

A nade costs just about as much as a single mine yet a mine has a bigger explosion and can suppress/pin that and a nade(especially the axis ones) do not always kill

[c4dillon]

Not much considering they can come back 20 seconds later.

I never understood players who don't see forcing a retreat as a victory. If they run over a mine with an infantry squad you've just accomplished a few things.

1. Done a significant amount of instant damage to the squad.

2. Pinned them, allowing your squads to easily wipe up or force a retreat.

Assuming we go with the latter, you've forced a retreat... Now:

The enemy must reinforce their squad as well as run them to their base and back.

You've just made him spend resources and even more valuable in most games - spend time. Time that can be spent by -you- to reinforce that position - set up more mines, for example, or stick a squad behind cover for when they try to come back.

As a bonus, when you use mines, you can now proceed to mentally screw with your opponent as well, letting him gamble on whether or not you just dropped a few more where he went before... or whether the other chokepoint they choose to attack from is safe...

Any way you slice it, you've just stymied part of his plan to gain some dominance and helped to maintain what you have. All of this for a tiny amount of munitions (and apparently a little bit of cap too, didn't know about that, but forces them to be used judiciously)

[BlueJackal]

Mines are great.

You just need to use them when you know the enemy is going to cap a certain point, or when you know the enemy is going to go onto a certain bridge/pass/whatever.

Setting a single mine... having it detonate on a squad, then sending in flamer engineers to finish off the pinned squad is delightful. Delightful!

[DrunkenOne]

Demonic are you one of the people who think that propaganda sucks because it just makes the enemy retreat?

[Timeless]

NM, that was mean of me. heh.

[Demonic Spoon]

I never understood players who don't see forcing a retreat as a victory. If they run over a mine with an infantry squad you've just accomplished a few things.

1. Done a significant amount of instant damage to the squad.

2. Pinned them, allowing your squads to easily wipe up or force a retreat.

Assuming we go with the latter, you've forced a retreat... Now:

The enemy must reinforce their squad as well as run them to their base and back.

You've just made him spend resources and even more valuable in most games - spend time. Time that can be spent by -you- to reinforce that position - set up more mines, for example, or stick a squad behind cover for when they try to come back.

As a bonus, when you use mines, you can now proceed to mentally screw with your opponent as well, letting him gamble on whether or not you just dropped a few more where he went before... or whether the other chokepoint they choose to attack from is safe...

Any way you slice it, you've just stymied part of his plan to gain some dominance and helped to maintain what you have. All of this for a tiny amount of munitions (and apparently a little bit of cap too, didn't know about that, but forces them to be used judiciously)

Good point.


Demonic are you one of the people who think that propaganda sucks because it just makes the enemy retreat?

Of course not. When he comes with a large force, you can force him to abandon all infantry support, making it quite easy to mop up any tanks/AT guns. Then you can deal with his infantry seperately.

[DrunkenOne]

K, just makin sure.

[Caelib]

I didn't read the entire thread so this may be a repeat but I agree with the OP ... mines are next to worthless with the upkeep and munition costs. Especially considering it takes 3 or 4 mines to destroy a tank.

[CrossOrion]

If you didn't bother reading the entire thread then you didn't see the counter arguments of mine's usefulness and thus making the thread longer then it needs to be.

Read the thread, don't think only your opnion counts.

[PrinceMyshkin]

I would like to state my opinion:

- Upkeep should be removed.
- Mine visibility should be removed.
- Anti-Infantry attack should be increased by a 1.3-1.5 factor.

Thank you

[Demonic Spoon]

Agreed...except what is "mine visibility"?

[Alcorr]

Has anyone else had an instance where you setup a mine field an infantry walk into it and the who section goes up?

This is because you are not spreading out your mines, you place them too close together.

Don't do the drag build, build one at a time.

And btw, mines a perfect at the moment except for upkeep, thats just stupid.

[Timeless]

Yea, the cost is more than fine. But I really don't get upkeep. That is ridiculous.

[Alcorr]

Mine visibility should be removed.

O yes that is so stupid.

Mine visibility (to answer someone else's question) is when your units hit or get close to a minefield and then they can see nearby mines that have not gone off yet. This is stupid and unrealisitc. It should be removed.

[MenacingVitamin]

Mine visibility (to answer someone else's question) is when your units hit or get close to a minefield and then they can see nearby mines that have not gone off yet. This is stupid and unrealisitc. It should be removed.

I love mines, but if/when people start using (spamming) them much more than they are now, you'll be thankful for this feature.

[Frosty]

I see that many of you think that reducing the cost of mines would encourage players to spam them. Then i'll just ask you what mine detectors may be good for? Has anyone of you ever actually used these in multiplayer, maybe along with the sherman's crab mine flail?

Besides, once you've detected a minefield, it's really easy to clear it. Get any weapon that has an area of effect, like a mortar or even hand grenades (i believe), and the minefield will be gone in seconds, effectively costing the enemy loads of munitions that did no damage at all.

[Demonic Spoon]

Besides, once you've detected a minefield, it's really easy to clear it. Get any weapon that has an area of...

Hence why you don't make mineFIELDS, you plant mines in places you think he'll go...but not too many.

I use minesweepers whenever I know my opponent has laid mines and I'm not sure exactly where.

[Timeless]

Mines are used effectively by good players. Instead of asking for cheaper mines so you can lay more of them, perhaps go to GR.ORG and read carefully the mine positioning guide. Mines are a very nice tactical tool. To ask for a lower cost than 25 ammo is ridiculous, imo, and indicative of not knowing how to use them. It's really just that simple. I put them down in key areas to knock out the engines of tanks and to nearly kill ACs and Half Tracks. When I take out the engines of a tank, I can more easily beat them with my own armor or AT toting infantry. That is what they are for.

[JCFast]

I love mines but still I don't use them that often. Because of the upkeep and the cost which have been mentioned here before. I usually tend to spend the ammunition for other kinds of things than placing mines which have even the change never to be used even. IMO they cost too much and when I have placed a "nice" minefield the forward infantry just gets killed and then the tanks just roll through... :D

[Alcorr]

I love mines, but if/when people start using (spamming) them much more than they are now, you'll be thankful for this feature.

Why do we need this feature? If the guy is spamming mines, il just call up a unit of eng/pioneers and clear the field. Really simple. No reason for this feature.

[Cerlin]

I use mines in every match. Even if maps do not have "real" chokepoints like massive ammounts of hedgerows, they do have ones like victory points and resource points. Early to mid game if you put a mine or two near these you can deter him from capturing them, without having to commit so many men to the cause of defending that flank. Also as previously said I use them for AT gun support, they enhance the effectiveness of AT guns greatly, no more shermans flanking my pak's.

And to the player who mentioned that mines do not hurt tigers, my response is What were you doing wrong? I've had 3 mines take more than half life off a Tiger Ace and this was enough to allow my opponent to kill the tiger and supporting infantry with Airborne.

[BlueJackal]

I have used mine detectors. But I didn't know about the Mortar AoE thing.

[HexHammer]

I don't mind mines being a bit pricy, else we had nothing but mine spam sure engineers has minesweepers but it's hell to use, when enemy has spammy mg's and such.

[EternalThought]

I try to use mines as much as possible. I don't find them too expansive, but I didn't know about the upkeep cost. Since I'm never at full upkeep it didn't bother me too much.
However, I would also want to see how a cheaper mines will effect the game, since as of now the minesweeper and sherman flail seems useless, as they are effective mainly for large minefields (or to chop infantry if you want to be cruel).
Maybe make it so the more mines you build in a row the cheaper each mine will cost? thus keeping single mine usage the way it is now but also allowing for a cheaper minefield deployment.

Btw, how does the minesweeper works? Does it neutralize the mine or just informs you about its whereabouts?

[irR4tiOn4L]

IMHO, there should be three mines there, just like the graphic shows, but triggered one at a time. So your tank or infantry can trip it once and back away, but cant just run through without some anti-mine measure.

[Tankcommander]

@EternalThought:

The minesweeper (the one time I used it) detects mines (giving you a nice event cue and everything) then you can click on them or something and remove them ( I think you get some munitions too.) The crab mine flail (my favorite) immediately blows them up.

[DMolition]

I always use mines. I use them on enemy supply lines all the time. When I cut the enemy supply line, I stick a couple of mines there as I know they will be wanting it back quick. Just watching a group of infantry set the mine off is cool. I find that you need to lay two lots of mines though to do any proper damage which is annoying.

Also when I'm just trying to harass the enemy by stealing resource points I know I wouldn't be able to keep or fortify I just lay mines there as I know they will be coming back to take it.

Mines do a good job if used strategically.

[ZuppoX]

Single mines are effective enough to be balanced, but not minefields. They still have somewhat like the damage of one mine, but each one of them explodes.

ZuppoX

[Bentguru]

My suggestion is to manually set single mines in an area to make a minefeild. Makeing a minefield like the game suggests for you to do is wasteful and ineffective.

That said, 3-4 mines placed on a chokepoint can be invaluable. Simply cover them with mg42 fire to prevent minesweepers and you have a position that's going to be very difficult to take out. In my opinion if you only take out 1 m8 with mines it's served it's purpose.