[DC 1.51] Chaos lord extreme nerfing, justification?

[eXarchProXy]

The Post



Background, so explain the experience as well as including the race and units involved.

Example:I was playing a 1v1 skirmish vs a harder chaos computer. I was playing eldar. My reapers and guardians were attacking his barraks and my farseer engaged the CL. I used mindwar but let the farseer continuse to fight the CL. The CL died leaving the farseer with a decent chunk of HP.






The Balance Issue, a detailed account of the experienced balance issue.

Example: Why would a CL lose to a farseer in CC? Slowing poison is also completely gone. His damage is obviously less thus he wouldn't have lost all things considered. A CL should be a melee giant.

Solution(s); Give some ideas on how a possible fix could be done.

Example:buff the CL. There isn't anything else to make up for this loss of power to CSM in t1.


Evidence

I don't have the replay but I will seek to recreate it and give HP numbers.

[fuggles]

Are points 1 and 2 supposed to be connected?

[eXarchProXy]

Not really, no. From the look of it his damage and HPs are reduced. With or without slow poison he isn't much of a hero.

Especially with a lack of effective spells.

[DatonKallandor]

T1 doesn't exactly last long.


Daton

[Slow_Runner]

This is not a Relic hotline where you can ask why this or that was done.

If you're saying that the CL in its DC incarnation is underpowered, please give reasons and especially some evidence (hitpoints, replay etc.) as to why you think that is. Because the thought of a CL losing to a FS in CC without the Farseer using her spells seems like a potential case of UP on the Chaos Lord's part, I'm willing to let you try and shape up the thread to meet the standards (http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=113275) of Balance Issues.

If it's still nothing more than a "Why did you nerf my Chaos Lord", this thread will join the rest of the locked knee-jerk reactions so far posted in here.

[eXarchProXy]

T1 doesn't exactly last long.

you're right. when my base is flooded with enemies because my hero died and them my army died i can easily tech to t2 and fight back........oh wait my buildings are all gone.

[Troubleshooter]

The question is (or should be) whether or not the Chaos lord us UP vs. The farseer. Go lab it and let us know how it works out!

The premis that the CL should win vs. a Farseer in CC is not a balance issue - its a fluff-expectation issue, or is just carry-over common sense from previous iterations of DoW.

So, get the replay of this happening on a regular basis and then we can talk about if there is a balance issue in the MU in question - but be sure you take into account the supporting role of the tier 1 units around these heros. Balance discussions about single unit MU's can not exist in a vacume...

[LoRd KoRn]

Well someone should check the performance of the CL vs all other Tier 1 heros. Since vanilla DoW the CL was beating every other hero in a straigth 1on1. If this has changed that is...wrong.

[eXarchProXy]

Well that's my point.
He's always been the best in straight up CC.

[Weavern]

Just because the role of the chaos lord has changes does not automatically make this a balance issue. The thread is being given the chance to illustrate a possible tweak to the chaos lord which created a situation where he us underpowered.

[W0lf]

cl losing 1on1 to a fasrseer IS UP!

The farseer has better CC AND has spells. Therefore hes at least 2x as good. ether the seer is oped or the cl is unped.

[Carl]

Was this Campaign or Skirmish? Which side where you controling?

[MoschBoy]

Well someone should check the performance of the CL vs all other Tier 1 heros. Since vanilla DoW the CL was beating every other hero in a straigth 1on1. If this has changed that is...wrong.
why ? its a new game, so units dont have to do what they did in previous version (horrors anyone?). guys, play the game for a 2-3 weeks, play it online, and than start throwing around with balance issues.

[Hirmetrium]

lol this gets better and better, first chaos tier 2 is ubernerfed without tanks and NOW their main unit which you absolutely MUST build in matchups is nerfed so he cant even beat another unit.

I hope there are some bloody big buffs to chaos to compensate. like the barracks not costing 300, the armoury costing 175 instead of 200....

Daermonic_Fire - dont forget she ALSO has fleet of foot.

I fucking said MOTNHS ago to leave the CL and his stats alone. A cost nerf should of been all that happened.

Now hes like the FC - but 1000 times worse, because whereas SM can skip the FC investment with cheap buildings, chaos STILL needs the CL for their 1 power.

Pfff, wtf is the point of upgrading the hero to a new unit if the hero cant even last a bloody tier 1 battle like he used to.

The loss of poison means hes lost about a 1/3 of his DPS, because it all comes from the damage inbetween attacks.

lol @ farseer meleeing him to death. the far seer is a specialised physic hero not a melee fighter....vs a melee fighter it should be obvious who wins.


why ? its a new game, so units dont have to do what they did in previous version (horrors anyone?). guys, play the game for a 2-3 weeks, play it online, and than start throwing around with balance issues. Unless every chaos building in reduced in price, every chaos unit buffed in tier 1 to compensate for the lord not performing, chaos will fail. No other race relies on their hero like chaos. Funnily enough WA didn't just disappear. so what tier 1 lasts for 10 seconds? tier 1 still exsists.

since chaos units are effectively weaker(or at least less effective) than all other races, they always needed the CL to perform. He doesnt do that now. from what i've gathered hes nothing more than an expensive aspiring champion.

[Old Painless]

Do you have the game yet Hirmetrium ? Before you say chaos are weak without the CL its the same for all races.

[Hirmetrium]

No, but if DC chaos tier 1 = the same, and the people in the changes thread are not lieing or plain stupid, its fairly easy to get a good picture.

EDIT: I also love these new balance forums rules, their total ownage ^_^

[eXarchProXy]

Massive swearing always helps too.

IM going to put DC on another computer and control the test myself so hold tight.

[nichtganz]

Give him back slow poison simple.

[tauknight]

No. Slow poison was one of the things that ruined WA. One hit and BANG death trap no matter what, unless you're Big Mek or the Farseer.

[Hirmetrium]

or FC, who could go toe to toe , or general who had knockback. If his DPS wasnt corrected to account for the removal it wouldnt be so bad.

even if the 50 req costs of the chaos rax was added to the CL and removed from the barracks it wouldnt be so bad.

[Shadow Field]

I usually play eldar, but i like the fact that the CL use to have the slow poison. It made it different from the other heros.

[capper96]

its because he lost that fur coat.

in WA its the Fur coat that made him have slow poison.

[DukeRustfield]

Until I see stats, I don't know what to say. What if CL dmg vs. Commander was reduced and his building dmg was doubled?

[nichtganz]

then he would be really gay imagine doubled building damage and then Daemon strength= GG. He would most likely half health buildings.

[Slow_Runner]

I was hoping we could maintain a level of reasonable discussion about the matter but it appears it's not going to happen this close to DC's release.

I went and with some help found the hp for both the Farseer and CL and apparently both remain unchanged in DC. That being the case, the only thing nerfed seems to be the slow poison so there doesn't seem to be a massive overnerf in the works here. Since that's the case, I say we see how Chaos fares in the weeks to come before claiming imba again on the matter. If someone does a lab and finds a Farseer ridiculing a CL in mortal combat, drop me a PM and we'll see how it goes from there but for the time being, this thread is getting a lock.