[1.2 Balance] The Incestuous Tank Balance Relationships

[TarlSS]

Hot topics on this Forum?

Calliope Spam!
AC/Stug Spam!
Nerf the Flakpanzer!
Bunker spam!

Not surprisingly, these imbalances are all interrelated into a single, horrible relationship.

The fact is, without Calliopes, the Allies would lose horribly to the above three Axis strategies. Let's not kid ourselves.
Imagine a game where

Step 1- MG and Bunkers guard Axis fuel points, or better, take Allied 'murder spots'
Step 2- Stug/AC Spam- Countered by ATs/Stickys? Not really. Stugs and ACs hang back behind MGs where it's smart, and cover an advance if neccessary.
Step 3- Flakpanzer death. Or, if you like style, Kreigsbarracks and Stuka death.

How can the above be stopped?
MG/Bunker- Mortars work, but as long as the Axis can guard their fuel (They need not take the allied fuel points) the ACs and Stugs are coming. With bunkers, you may not even get this far.
Stug/AC- Relatively easy. Stickys with AT, or Shermans. The main problem? Fuel! Calliopes are the only way to come back from MG death
Flakpanzers- Without shermans, you're dead at this point.

So let's summarize-
If the allies do not focus on infantry, they will be steamrollered by superior Axis troops. Without BAR/Gren, Allied infantry is very dead. BAR delays tech.
Since Germans are typically always faster on the tech (OP'd Fuel points, no need for two buildings for basic units) they can easily get ACs/Stug
Without Calliopes, Allies would be dead more often than not. Sorry, that's the way it is. That unit is pretty much propping up the entire allied faction against the flak panzer.

If you're going to nerf Calliopes, then you also need to nerf
Bunkers and Flakpanzers, because they're the only way you're going to get out of a bunker trap with Flakpanzers running in.

Axis have it too easy buttoning up the Allies into a hole, a few misclicks by letting an MG into a house and you're done. The only way to stop it once they fortify the area with bunkers is Calliopes-
they allow you to break out, and make the Axis pay for concentrating resources on killing infantry, which is really what this is all about.

[Maj. Impact]

Well said, Maybe make the upgrade from bunker to MG nest more expensive? 75-100 Ammo? And increase the Flakpanzer cost? And limit the amount of Calliope's like they did to the Tiger? (which I agree with) Maybe to 2 at once? Lets hear what other peeps have to say. =/

[Tankcommander]

Which is why it is better to not mess with anything at all. From the way I see it, everything is pretty balanced, and if you mess with one thing, you'll probably have to mess with more. That's what EA did with BF2, and very few times did anything get better.

[Bentguru]

I would agree...

Except for the fact that players like promethius and sepha (the two allied I consider to be the best) and numerious other players win repeatedly without using the calliope. The calliope is a crutch unit that allows allied to win stupidly easy. They just have the style to not use it.

mg42's can be easily taken out by as little as 2 rifle squads and grenades. With the low reinforcement requirements you can also normally prevent axis from ever getting to tier 3 with just rifles. Your options in the motorpool, which is about what the allied equivalent of the Sturm Armory is, are some of the best in the game. m8's can raid points, not to mention place mines anywhere on the map including the exit points for axis buildings. Quad .50's are just as devasting to infantry as a flakpanzer is, and guess what, they come cheaper and can reinforce units in the field. AT guns will mow down stugs approaching your positions. Need I go on?

[DrunkenOne]

Watch any sepha or promethius replay if you think allies NEED calliopes to win.

Also, anyone complaining about flaks is retarded. Flaks are useful against 2 things: buildings and things built by the motor pool (ACs, AT guns, HTs). Pumas are just as good if not better against infantry and cost 130mp/15 fuel less, not to mention the cost of the tier 4 upgrade and the panzer command. And flaks are worthless against tanks. It is not even worth building a panzer command to get flaks most of the time unless you already have a sturm armory, else you sacrifice all of your AT power since tier 4 axis tanks suck for cost.

[OiScout]

Quick question. Do you play 1v1s or 2v2s?

Cause as Allies, I barely have any problems going up against the tanks on the other team unless they have map control. However when I'm Axis with map control and up against a tank whore, I somehow still get into a world of shit.

[Dread Moose]

actually, an ostwind can kite and stay out of any infantry range and murder them if done properly, it also counters at cannons, without the need to flank it.

saying the puma is just as good as a flakpanzer is retarded, if you havent seen an ostwind used properly, simply drive by gunnings kill infantry and do not give any weapons a chance to make a shot on them.

This has to be said though, The game is not fucking balanced around what sepha or promethius does. Hell i just won a game my ally ducked out at the start.

A better player will always win barring imbalances and mistakes. The game could be left as is, and be playable, but not with what relic's plans for the game were. Most of the units in the game are underused or not used at all because there is another unit better for price or capability. I could name them off, but pretty much all the major posts have them covered.

[DrunkenOne]

A Puma IS just as good as a flakpanzer FOR COST. For the price of the 1st flak you can have 4 pumas. And I've seen flaks shoot an entire volley at a rifle squad and get 0 kills, just throwing them around.

Oh and I totally agree with you dread, the game should be balanced around terrible players who have no idea what they are talking about or doing, not the top players who can use units to their fullest.

[Bentguru]

A better player will always win barring imbalances and mistakes.

Congradulations, you just proved our point. Since Sepha and Promethius win repeatedly without resorting to calliopes none of the axis "imbalances" mention in the origional post exist.

[Timeless]

Hehe @ Drunk's last comment. Finally, some sense around here.

[Bonnet]

bent: The one thing is, I have never, ever used a calliope in a game I wasn't already winning significantly. Indeed thats when they get used the most. So I have a feeling your impression of imbalance is slightly exagerated.
Also you are understating the potential of flaks, it is just they are hard to achieve, but if you get them before the enemy has a significant number of AT guns you can scout with a squad, even bait his rifles and than simply kite them to death.

[Timeless]

Right, and it might be said that you were winning because of massed Riflemen with BAR, since if you're going to use the Calliope, you needn't worry about teching, so needn't worry about making too many infantry or investing too much in their upgrades? That's an assumption for sure, but I see it work that way for a lot of allied players. This is the crux of the issue, imo.

[Bentguru]

I have no problem with allies going and upgrading their infantry. And if you're already winning at that point zbobet, then it doesn't really show how the calliope is imbalanced, seeing as all it's doing is putting the nail in the coffin.

But i've had games where somebody has done that and I have BEATEN the riflespam, even with his upgrades, but then the calliopes come out and I cannot stop them.

The crux of the issue is that calliopes allow allies to completely circumvent the entire allied tech tree and get heavy armor without any of the downsides normally associated with it. You sacrifice nothing the entire game, but still have a armor unit that is equivalent to shermans. The axis player on the other hand has to spend 660 manpower and 110 fuel to just get the BUILDING needed to produce the counter.

[Timeless]

That's what I meant, Bent. When I play Allies that actually tech, their infantry is far less a problem. That's why I think the two go hand in hand. It's because they can get such a good tank wout teching that allows them to invest ALL their money into infantry which then out does the Axis.

[Dread Moose]

the majority of the "top players" are using units to thier fullest, such as calliope spam etc. If it is in the game it will get exploited to the fullest.

[Danger30Q]

I find the Calliope most useful when I choose to fully upgrade my Rifleman squads (stickies, grenades, and BARs) which allows me to have a tank on the board without having to first spend 90 fuel to build the tank depot.

After I do build the tank depot (maybe after the first Calliope) I find that the manpower is limiting me from building tanks, not the fuel. So basically the early Calliope is the counter to a StuG IF I choose to fully upgrade my squads.

If I do fully upgrade the Rifleman, I usually use most of my ammo on grenades and BAR suppression so I maybe use 1 Calliope barrage at most.

The point to my post is that the Calliope is most useful as an early heavy tank and not the constant use of the barrage ability.

[Bentguru]

the majority of the "top players" are using units to thier fullest, such as calliope spam etc. If it is in the game it will get exploited to the fullest.

Exactly right, and 2 top players (drunkenone and I) are pointing out the fact that calliopes are imbalanced and being exploited. As such, they need a change.

[NovaBurn]

TarlSS your argument is based on nothing but alot of assumptions and probably on not alot of play experience by using the former as an excuse to say calliopes are the single reason allies win. I can call major bullshit on that myself.

Either you make real argument or someone should I don't see the thread going too far on just assumptions and hot air.

[Bonnet]

No, I do have to worry about making too many squads or not investing in teching. Primarily in getting mortars (on city maps at least) to run off those damn MG's and also in getting AT guns fast enough to prevent some kind of mass genocide of my rifleman.

Timeless: I think that the original poster was actually off in his assessment of which unit held up the entire allied force. I use airborne 90% of the time to GREAT effect because the AT guns come quicker than the calliope and are cheap as all hell.
The one unit which holds up the entire balance is the Rifle + bar. Simply put, without it I have a hard time seeing an Allied victory (maintaining all other balances). Allied infantry would get steamrolled by volks with mp40's and mg42's (which come from the same building). If you tune down the BAR you are going to have to make some other infantry unit useful to the Allies. Right now there simply isn't one (outside of mortar, which wouldn't help against charging volks).


And as one last point about the flak its main advantage, in fact its huge advantage over pumas is range, if you are good enough you will never, ever see an ally player sticky the thing.

[Bentguru]

There's nothing wrong with the BAR.

There is something wrong with the insta-pin button known as "suppression fire"

[Timeless]

zbobet, I agree, if BAR is ever to be nerfed, it's going to have to be done with surgical precision. Wout it, yes, I agree, Allies would be fooked. However, with it and 6-10 squads, it becomes a nightmare for Axis. Though I still need to play around with the MG vet upgrade a bit and see if there's any merit to that as Tranj posted earlier today.

Bent, I'm sure that's what he meant, or what I meant. The insta pin button. Bar is very good without this button, but with it, they can just be truly sick. I still think even nerfing this ability in the wrong way could mean serious problems for Allies, though. So, I'm not fully sure what to offer as a solution.

[Bonnet]

Bent: I was referring to suppression fire (my apologies on lack of specificity), and the fact is you will utterly cripple the Allies if you decrease the effect, or increase the cost of suppressing fire there is no other unit that the Allies will be able to effectively field to stop German infantry.

Timeless: Precisely. I do agree that right now it is a bit overpowered, but any changes to it will have to result in changes elsewhere. Actually, now that I think about it I should probably start a new thread on this...but one of the most effective changes would be to simply stop the rifleman from using the bar at the same time as stickies or nades. Right now half the power comes from the ability to supress those volks and than engage that Stug at the same time.

[Mindspider]

I might want to point out that Promethius, the current #1 ranked match player, uses infantry almost exlucisely. Saying that Calliopes are necessary to beat Axis Stug/Bunker rush is just flat out wrong.

[Bentguru]

I actually don't think nerfing suppression fire will hurt allied infantry all that much.

The BAR raises the firepower of the squad as a whole to about the same level as an mp40 volk squad, but they can tear the volks up at range and on the move. And you will still have the allied uber-pineapple.

[Dread Moose]

so remove the insta pin, and the pinned status for suppression. Instead make it a buff to the suppression lvl to that of a MG for about 10 seconds. Units can still crawl away etc, but it will still stop a charge of volks, and give time for a squad of riflemen to stop an advance so that some reinforcements can arrive.

[Bonnet]

Bent: The issue with that is the whole holding them at range piece. It would mean constantly retreating the rifleman...meaning you could never hold territory with them.

Dread: It doesn't matter, the LMG42 of the grenadiers would still rip the rifleman a new one if thats how it worked. Also the supressed status would wear of rather quickly on the volks and they would just charge on.

[Dread Moose]

if you suppress a lmg42 they dont fire back. And once 1 suppress wears off, use 1 from the other squad or riflemen.


Bar should give you enough suppression to either make an escape or find heavy cover and make your stand. How does that sound.

[DrunkenOne]

zbobet: watch the replay between myself and bent posted in the replay forums. I do not use BARs and win the game do to calliopes.

[Timeless]

It's getting closer to a solution, that's how it sounds.

I've been wondering why the devs might have decided to give Riflemen such an ability in the first place, this insta pin button. Maybe to counter for the fact that they usually won't have MGs as Axis will? To help as a counter, but knowing that with mobility, the Riflmen would be WAY too powerful if the ability were free, they decided to add it as a tech cost and then ammo charge per use? Maybe, not sure, of course. Here's another thought. What if Grens could get LMGs as an upgrade to unlock them, for a bit of fuel, instead of having to tech to tier3 for the upgrade? Would this help improve the reason to stay in tier2? Maybe not, I haven't fully fleshed the idea out, but I do wonder why the devs chose to make this a tier3 upgrade. I mention this because as it is, it seems better to just rely on MGs, but MGs are more easily flanked due to their setup times. LMGs don't have this problem as they can get up and move much more quickly. Anyway, just some thoughts.

[Dread Moose]

IF bar is changed, then allies need another unit to add into the match. Rangers are doctrine specific, as are airborne but paratroopers fighting ability sucks unless you manage to pick up some guns.

Whereas The axis get volks,grends,KC. All of them fill a different role and increase in power.

The Riflemen is suppose to fill all roles through upgrades, starting the weakest and gaining power as you purchase more upgrades, the removal of 1 of thier roles will require another unit to replace it.

[Bentguru]

but we're not removing a role. We're toning down the 40 munition forced retreat button that is suppression fire to something more realistic. If suppression fire only suppressed infantry it'd be fine, since while the ability is active the rifles damage seems to be severly gimped, which currently doesn't matter cause the axis infantry wont be able to shoot back anyway cause they're in the fetal position. It's about balance, you can still suppress 3+ squads with the ability, but you can only take real ADVANTAGE of it with more than one rifle since the one using the ability can't hit crap while it's active.

@ Timeless: If the lmg for grenadiers was a global fuel upgrade I'd never leave teir 2. The weapon is very very good, it just costs so damn much.

[Bonnet]

Drunken: Check my analysis of the replay in the thread, but needles to say I don't think that is a good example.

Bent: In adittion to the points I made against demonic spoon you are forgeting that if it only supressed and didn't pin the mp40 volks would pause for a second, taking little or no damage due to lower damage output during the ability, and would faust the rifle squad, wait for the fire to wear off and simply charge in again and rip the rifles to pieces.

[Bentguru]

That being why you would need more than 1 BAR squad, since the 2nd would take advantage of the volks immobility and tear them to itty bitty bits.

And seeing as 1 rifle squad can do this to multiple volk squads, I think it'd be balanced.

Again: Somebody tell me how a 40 munition forced retreat button that does damage (if alot less than usual) is balanced. Cause that's what suppression fire is right now.

[Bonnet]

Bent: You failed to answer my points. If the volks are only suppressed (read not pinned) they can fire back, especially with a faust causing massive damage to the rifleman and you are implying we should need two rifleman squads for every volks squad we engage.

[Vicious_CB]

Bent: You failed to answer my points. If the volks are only suppressed (read not pinned) they can fire back, especially with a faust causing massive damage to the rifleman and you are implying we should need two rifleman squads for every volks squad we engage.

No BARs PIN thats the crux of our issue. The ability is called suppress but it pins and it shouldnt do that

[Aegeri]

Bent: You failed to answer my points. If the volks are only suppressed (read not pinned) they can fire back, especially with a faust causing massive damage to the rifleman and you are implying we should need two rifleman squads for every volks squad we engage.

Sorry, but I don't think this is a very valid point for you because suppressed Volks are MUCH more susceptible to grenades than non-suppressed riflemen are to panzerfausts. They are also much more susceptible overall to enemy fire. The reason BARs are regarded as insta-make-your-enemy-retreat buttons is because of how vulnerable to follow up grenades they become.

[Bonnet]

And he was saying that it should be fixed by making the ability (called "Supressive Fire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suppressive_fire)", which is not that same thing at all as supress) supress. I was responding as to why such a change would severly gimp rifleman, and the Allies overall. It is just to drastic.

Aegeri: I have good axis players take out 3 of my rifleman while they are on the move with fausts, they do it all the time. Its simply because rifleman tend to clump when they move and there is no way to dodge a faust. So after you supress the volks using your now gimped ability, and while you close to toss the pineaple he simply fausts you and than the remaining three get cut down by mp40's at close range. And even ignoring the faust the simple requirement that you close on the still firing mp40's of the volks to throw the nade is going to make it difficult for anything but a full strength rifle squad to do any damage.

[Aegeri]

Except he didn't say that, he said it wouldn't PIN but would suppress. There is a world of difference between PINNING and SUPPRESSION. Suppression makes enemy units hit the deck, they can still fire back and they crawl around. Suppressed units are much more vulnerable to fire and grenades.

Pinning means a unit CANNOT move, CANNOT fire and CANNOT do anything other than retreat.

BARs should not pin, they should suppress however.

Edit: Yeah and I've eliminated an entire grens squad with a single grenade after suppressing them with BARs. I don't need to be good to do that, it doesn't require any skill or timing at all to effectively grenade a unit that ISN'T MOVING.

[Bonnet]

Aegeri:"And he was saying that it should be fixed by making the ability (called "Supressive Fire", which is not that same thing at all as supress) supress."
Serriously, that is the second time you have managed to misread what I said, or simply didn't even bother.

Edit to your edit: Thats not the point, I am pointing out why changing the Supressive Fire ability to only supress would make it so that rifleman where severly gimped.

[Aegeri]

And they are not.

That's the point you've missed repeatedly so far. There is nothing 'gimped' about an ability that suppresses all enemy units around a SINGLE unit using the ability. If this is your definition of 'gimped' then I'd hate to see what you would consider balanced or even 'overpowered' for that matter.

BARs right now make axis infantry irrelevant and enable riflemen to exterminate much more expensive/upgraded axis squads very easily. Suppression fire should be able to suppress but not pin. These are 20 clip automatic rifles, NOT MINI-.30 CAL MACHINE GUNS.

[Vicious_CB]

does it make sense that BARs can pin faster than any MG squad? An mg squad cant pin nearly as fast , run up to your squad and wipe them out because that would be too imba so why should a riflesquad be able to do it in 1 or 2 bursts?

[Bonnet]

Aegeri: I have already pointed out that it is likely overpowered. But it is also the sole reason the Allies can survive at the moment. If you decreased the power or effectiveness (which is the defenition of gimping FYI) using that method, simple counters (like the one I pointed out) would make it so that the Allies could no longer compete in the early game.

It is fine that you wan't to decrease the power of the bar, just find another way.

Vicious: Gameplay over realism, simple as that.

[raydude]

Just to clarify here. People are taking the fact that the BAR should ONLY suppress because in its description it states that it causes "suppressing fire". The fact is, the military makes no distinction between whether a rifle or MG can cause "suppressing fire" or "pinning fire". The effect is called "suppressing fire" and the degrees of suppression range from just being suppressed to being pinned.

Just look at any description for a heavy machinegun. None of the descriptions state that the MG is used for "pinning fire". They all state that the MG is used for "suppressing fire".

Now, I agree that the BAR effects should be changed. Possibly to the point where it can only suppress a unit. But please, lets stop arguing that it should only suppress because the description states that it only does "suppressing fire".

All automatic rifles and heavy machine guns "only" do suppressing fire.

[Bentguru]

zbobet, BAR's give rifles a large increase in firepower as is.

Removing the ability to pin stop's single rifle squads from being unbeatable. However in GROUPS where 1 rifle suppresses and the other fires normally, they are still going to do very serious damage to axis infantry. Rifles will still be superior.

[Bonnet]

No. Right now an MP40 volks walk directly over rifle squads with bars, even when the supress.

[Bentguru]

No, they don't. If the guy using suppress is a monkey maybe, but there's no way to get close enough 1 on 1 for mp40's to win.

Look at my BAR lab replay if you doubt me.

[Bonnet]

Sorry I made a mistake in my typing there, it was supposed to be:


No. Right now an MP40 volks walk directly over rifle squads with bars, unless they supress.

[PrinceMyshkin]

@ TarlSS: If you're going to nerf Calliopes, then you also need to nerf
Bunkers and Flakpanzers, because they're the only way you're going to get out of a bunker trap with Flakpanzers running in.

Yes mate! You are absolutely right! I do agree with you. Bunkers + Flakpanzers are LoL. Nerf 'em!

[Busby]

AT guns>Bunkers.

If BARs only surpassed, it would not hurt Allies that much. Why? Well because it still leaves two choices for the Axis player: Retreat or have a grenade blow them to ity bitty bits.

[PrinceMyshkin]

When we talk about bunkers we talk about early axis bunker rushing. :)

By that time the only building you will have will be barracks, no AT support or mortars will be available.

Thanx

[Busby]

Some people go support center first... Bunkers take awhile to build anyway, if you let them build bunkers around the central fuel point your not being aggressive enough.

50 munitions for a fixed MG is not that nice ether, and if it is a movable MG in there then just dance around the bunker.

[Bentguru]

@zbobet:

Yes, you're correct in that point. But if the mp40's get supressed they're still going to do much less damage