[1.2 Balance] Crocs and Ostwinds

[Tankcommander]

Now, I can't remember the price on each, however I do know that everyone thinks pretty highly of the flakpanzer (I do too). However, the allied equivalent (the Croc) is IMO just about as good against infantry, and against buildings, it seems more effective than the flak panzer!

I have noticed a lot of people think the croc is weak, but from my experience with it, it just seems weak, compared to the ostwind. To me, the flamethrower doesn't feel like it does that much, but in reality it is very deadly. The rapid-firing cannon on the ostwind feels like it can do some damage (and it does).

Anyway, my two cents on the croc. What do yall think?

[Busby]

The Sherman is better then the Crock. Its cheaper, can kill infantry just as well, and can actually hurt tanks.

The Sherman strikes again!

[Tankcommander]

Depends if you have the machine gunner, and the vet level on the sherman. If you have at least one veterancy level and a gunner, I agree. But the same is for the panzer. If you have veterancy up to the point where you have a machine gunner on the top, it becomes an effective anti infantry platform as well.

[Frosty]

Well, the Croc IS an effective tank, but the Ostwind is far more effective for it's cost. Don't forget that one Ostwind is worth laughable 40 fuel while a Croc is 120 (!) fuel!

Also, the Ostwind has some obvious advantages like longer range, the ability to shoot down aircraft (whether or not useful), and the ability to damage light vehicles as well, which Crocodiles with their flamethrowers can't. And the crocodile also has to get very close to the target, otherwise they won't take lots of damage.

[Sephlock]

While the Ostwind's AA abilities are certainly nice against paratroopers and airdropped AT guns, I have yet to see an Ostwind take down a plane (although I've read that it can happen... it must take a LOT of Ostwinds, because I've never managed it).

Really though, IMHO the croc is just part of a balance/counterbalance system that is currently not in use for various reasons- the primary one being that there are so many incredibly powerful anti infantry solutions available to the Allies, all of which are superior to the Croc in power AND affordability.

BARs come to mind, as do Shermans. Heck, even Calliopes are easier to get, since you don't need fuel.

[Vicious_CB]

What the above post said is incorrect,the croc has great range is just that when you click on something to attack it,because of the stupid AI, it will get into melee range. Just hit halt when you are in range

That being said the croc is too expensive to be en effective unit where a more versitile unit like the sherman can be built. Even without any upgrades or vet the sherman is highly effective against infantry usually killing 1-2 guys per shot. Seeing as how axis infantry have 4-5 members it can kill them damn fast

[Dread Moose]

croc gets over shadowed by the sherman, but the ostwind, has so many things going for it. Extremely low costs to build, Extremely high health but low armor, so it can take several armor hits and still run. It has extreme range, and awesome accuracy. It can kill an AT gun from the front without dieing. It is extremely good at destroying buildings. Due to its speed, you can chase down retreating troops and take them all out, and you can also kite enemy AT infantry and stay out or range very easily.

1 of the best tactics is do simply drive by shootings, they might get 1 or 2 hits if they are lucky, but you just repair, and they will have gotten off probably a dozen rounds and killed a squad or 2.

[Demon_Eyes]

There is one situaiton where the crocodile is superior to both the sherman and ostwind, taking out AT guns. Because heavy cover doesn't help against the flamethrower the croc actually does better damage against them.

[PrinceMyshkin]

Hmmm I am not sure that comparing an light armored flak vehicle, with a heavy armored proper tank modified to carry massive flamethrowers could be a could idea... I don't think they are equivalent at all actually.

In reality guys, Crocs were deadly vs. tanks as well. They were cooking the crews of almost any vehicle just like that. :P

And the funny thing is its flames had a 80m range -if I remember well. OMG.

Tigers though could have hit tanks about 1km away. ^^ :P Crazy.

[Frosty]

What the above post said is incorrect,the croc has great range is just that when you click on something to attack it,because of the stupid AI, it will get into melee range. Just hit halt when you are in range

I know that it has *nice* range, but from what i've seen, it doesn't do a whole lot of damage when it fires at it's maximum range. If you get close, it's flamethrowers can kill infantry and clear buildings nearly instantly (from what i've seen), but being farther away makes the flamethrower much less effective.

[Ahenian]

I think that flamers shout be made somehow effective against vehicles aswell. While I don't like the fact that some flames will take chunks of health off I would like to see a more disable effect. For example, if you're able to put a tank "on fire" for 10ish sec the engine should become damaged. Killing the crew etc doesn't fill CoH overall gameplay so this version would be more feasable. And as we all know disabled tanks are pose minimal threat. This would give people who are late in getting into their mid-late game with at guns/tanks somekind of ability to buy time except mines/tanktraps.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

I rather like the croc for its low manpower cost.

[sgb]

Assuming they do something about Sherman's owning infantry in the upcoming patch, crocs might actually see use yet. I also assume the ostwind is getting a slight nerf. Infantry die like they're zerglings or something when an Ostwind fires on them.

[Waggz]

We can only hope sgb, we can only hope...

[Sharpz214]

Ostwinds seem more effective then Crocs. They also have the ability to do damage to light tanks where the croc can't... The cost of them is far more logical; Croc: 120 Fuel Ostwind: 40.

Thats just my thoughts!

[PrinceMyshkin]

Hello guys,

I watched a nice game yesterday night between LordPixie and GermanSupreme, it was obvious that Ostwinds were extremely OP.

So I did some basic literature review again to back up what I am going to say.

Ostwinds are OVERPOWERED. They spoil badly the balance of the game.

The armament of Ostwind was:
- 37mm Flak 43 L/89
- 2 x 7.92mm MG
- 1 x MG34 - hull
- 1 x MG 34/42 - carried inside

which is more or less what most tanks had. In addition the 37mm Flak cannon, had a good fire rate indeed, but it was definitely not a specialized infantry killer.

Ostwinds were good against all soft targets, but nothing extremely special, which can give a reason to 9 rate they have against infantry.

I would suggest that Ostwinds need:
o nerfing to 6 or 7 vs. Infantry targets.
o to receive an accuracy reduction in the 37mm Flak gun, due to its extremely fast rate of fire.

These changes would bring Ostwinds closer to reality, and make them less OP in our game.

Thank you,
N00bMysh

[TarlSS]

Trying to make the game into something it's not (A historical simulation) is always a bad idea, but I agree with the sentiment that the Ostwind needs a nerf.

The main problem is the rapid firing cannon- Slow the refire rate so that at least infantry squads can take a shot and retreat.

[Sephlock]

Are you sure it isn't the movement speed of the Ostwind, rather than the power of the cannon or the speed with which it fires?

In most of my games, the Ostwind is only really a problem under the following circumstances:

A: The allies have no tanks, and the Ostwind is being microed constantly, backing up every so often to avoid RR fire and sticky bombs.

or

B: The allies have no tanks, no sticky bombs, no RR equipped paratroopers, no rangers.... you get the idea.

Two paratrooper squads equipped with RRs can take down an Ostwind that isn't being microed in the above mentioned fashion, and Rangers... well, they're Rangers- If they manage to hit the GROUND with their bazookas, its a blasted miracle. Build tanks or AT guns, and/or ignore infantry company altogether.


IMHO, the Ostwind is fine as it is: if anything, just up the range of the RRs a tad, and make Rangers actually able to hit things with their Bazookas.

I mean, for goodness' sake, we're talking about a TIER 4 unit being able to counter units from tier 1. Oh noes! It is teh imba!

:P.

If hes cranking out tier 4 units and you're still relying on tier 1 units (one could argue that the WSC is tier one, since its available from the start... but w/e), the problem is not with his tier 4 unit, its with YOU.

[PrinceMyshkin]

Guys the fire rate is fine, it's a flak gun. The problem is its ridiculous accuracy.

BTW I never claimed that CoH should be 100% historically accurate, I am just backing up the balance issues with some historically based data.

[ZuppoX]

Make 5 shermans < tiger like it was and everything would be ok.

ZuppoX

[Dread Moose]

accuracy is the problem. Nothing in the era could do circles while owning all the infantry around them, Fire rate is ok, armor is ok, speed is even fire, but the fact that it can hit perfectly while cruising full speed is insane. No matter what the ostwind is doing, driving turning, retreating, that cannon is always pointing at a target and shooting because of the accuracy and the turret speed.

[Busby]

If Ostwinds are made to have bad accuracy while moving, make it so Shermans are no longer snipers that can hit almost everything while traveling at full speed.

[Dread Moose]

do shermans fire as fast as ostwinds though?

[Busby]

No but they fire faster then all Axis tanks, which miss a lot more then Shermans.

[ArmoredFury]

While the Ostwind's AA abilities are certainly nice against paratroopers and airdropped AT guns, I have yet to see an Ostwind take down a plane (although I've read that it can happen... it must take a LOT of Ostwinds, because I've never managed it).

Really though, IMHO the croc is just part of a balance/counterbalance system that is currently not in use for various reasons- the primary one being that there are so many incredibly powerful anti infantry solutions available to the Allies, all of which are superior to the Croc in power AND affordability.

BARs come to mind, as do Shermans. Heck, even Calliopes are easier to get, since you don't need fuel.
I have been the victim of losing my P-47 to Ostwinds. I had 3 Airborne squads taking a pounding from 2 Ostwinds, I called in for the Bomb strike from the P-47 it was shot down, exploded and the Ostwinds finsihed off my Airborne Units. Two things I hate most about the axis...players that are very good at micro axis mgs and Ostwinds...they tear apart any Alied based infantry unit with easy. Now the Croc cost to much, but I do enjoy burning down every buidling on the map with them so as to give no cover for axis units and really enjoy burning down the axis HQ with them...:)

[xanupox]

OStwind fires flak... exploding shells. It doesnt need to be ACCURATE. The kill radius for one shell is at least 10-15 meters, so firing a few in the direction of some troops = dead troops.

All is fine with Ostwind. 1 M10 or a Sherman eliminates the Ostwind from the battlefield as being a frontline vehicle and reduces it to a defensive anti-airborne unit.

[Dread Moose]

only if the flak from the hell hits them, so yes it does need to be accurate, and this isnt real life, for gameply concerns, things to be balanced, if you want the anti infantry unit of death, then it should have such costs. Right now, there is no reason to build a KCH because the ostwind is so cheap it can easily kill more than its cost worth of units and faster than a KCH could, you cant even retreat from an ostwind, he will chase your units all the way back to your base and mow them down all the way.

[Lord_Ulrik]

Ostwind = low fuel and high manpower
Crocodile = low manpower and high fuel
Just because the sherman is frickin tough vs inf and good vs tanks, no ally player see a reason in building crocs.
Crocs accuracy is 100% btw, its a flamer. It kills inf very well, take a good load of damage and hits buildings as well as ostwinds. Come back and cry IMBA/OP if relic had replaced the Ostwind by a Wirbelwind (same chassy but 4x 3.7mm FlaK)

[Dread Moose]

croc isnt low manpower. You cannot kite with a croc, and you cannot chase retreating infantry and murder them all before they get back, you cannot do drive bys with a croc taking out a dozen men and not getting shot. There is no comparison, and when the allies are already so fuel heavy as to need a 110 fuel to build that, so if it costs that much for a croc, you bitchers have no excuse to complain about 140 fuel from panther.

[Busby]

Allies should not complain about anything tank related, Sherman is currently the best tank (in anti-infantry and anti-tank) there is, and don't bother making me comment on the Calliope, aka the mobile nuke launcher.

[Demon_Eyes]

Ostwind is the best anti-infantry tank, seconded by crocodile with the sherman comming in third. Best anti-armor tank right now is the sherman with the 76mm upgrade and smoke launcher (mp+140 fuel), however out of the box the best anti-armor tank is the panther. As for AT of offmap units the tiger ace is best, tiger second (if the sturm squad doesn't equip shreks), pershing third, calliope fourth.

As has been said before, ostwind is too versatile for the cost, same MP cost as Panzer IV but half the fuel and can only be countered by armor, can counter allied airborne company all together as well as any infantry (including airborne with RR, they simply cannot out-damage it for cost) and light armored vehicles. Increasing the fuel cost to 60 should get this thing balanced out.

[Coyote667]

I agree to what Sephlock said. Also keep in mind that its not intendet that every unit must have its equal counterpart, I mean come on, yes, the Ostwind is cheap and yes it kills infantry. But by the time Ostwinds are rolling over the field there realy should be something to counter them. Maybe the crocodile seems too weak because, as already has been mentioned, the basic Sherman takes care of infantry as well. I wont even mention that axis infantry has a realy hard time anyways thanks to Bar upgrade, sometimes i feel the Ostwind is the only thing that keeps the allied from winning with riflemen (if thats a badly executet rifle spam at least). So im not sure if it realy should be compared to the Croc, since I feel that the allies just dont need another anti infantry unit anyways.

[ArmoredFury]

Allies should not complain about anything tank related, Sherman is currently the best tank (in anti-infantry and anti-tank) there is, and don't bother making me comment on the Calliope, aka the mobile nuke launcher.
LOL...my thoughts on it to..:)

--------------------------
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l74/DesertEagle68/armoredfury.jpg

[Virigoth]

Ostwind is the best anti-infantry tank, seconded by crocodile with the sherman comming in third. Best anti-armor tank right now is the sherman with the 76mm upgrade and smoke launcher (mp+140 fuel), however out of the box the best anti-armor tank is the panther. As for AT of offmap units the tiger ace is best, tiger second (if the sturm squad doesn't equip shreks), pershing third, calliope fourth.

As has been said before, ostwind is too versatile for the cost, same MP cost as Panzer IV but half the fuel and can only be countered by armor, can counter allied airborne company all together as well as any infantry (including airborne with RR, they simply cannot out-damage it for cost) and light armored vehicles. Increasing the fuel cost to 60 should get this thing balanced out.
Why don't we remove Croc out of that equation since it's never going to see play in a serious match.

So that leaves Ostwind for pure anti-infantry with Sherman taking second place for everything until it's upgraded. An equal resource wroth of upgraded shermans are certainly better pound for pound then an Ostwind and a Panther combined.

PS. Ostwind should get a fuel cost increase, but I hope that would be matched by a KCH buff of some sort in terms of usefulness. And let us all pray for sake of the game that Sherman's gun of infantry death+1 get's a bit of a nerf.

[Demon_Eyes]

The ladder is not just 1v1 and outside of 1v1 you can see crocodiles (most often employed to kill AT guns) and any ladder match should be considered a "serious match" if that was your contention. There also seems to be some sort of XP modifier, larger games seem to generate command points slower but that could be from several factors, I believe that needs a seperate look though.

Part of the problem ostwind/panther (or panzerIV, if it hit with its main gun) seems to be the sherman uprades, the 76mm doesn't degrade the anti-infantry capability of the sherman, which it should for balance. The sherman already has the .50 upgrade which improves it's anti-infantry capability while the smoke screen appears to have a bug in it's bi-directional effect, it doesn't appear to affect the sherman accuracy which is in direct contradiction to statements by the developers and which heavily modifies the ostwind/panther effectiveness in comparison.

The sherman smoke screen makes it very difficult for axis to even capitalize on their superior armor values since they can't hit the smoke deployed zone dependably while the allied forces can still fire through them without any apparent loss of accuracy. If the 76mm was more like the pre 1.2 model we would not see this sherman slaughter of axis infantry by main gun area damage after the upgrade however we would still see the 75mm doing a lot of infantry damage but then that gun is nowhere near as effective against axis armor. If the bug with the smoke is corrected we will not see the issue of allied armor being able to face off against axis armor, which I think would correct the entirety of the issue in that comparison.

KCH squads are a seperate issue and really should have their own thread if they do not already (pretty sure they do).