[DC 1.1] For the Greater Good - Tau Tactica

[ir0nside]

Alright, this is a work in progress. It'll take some time to finish, but I think that what I've put together so far might be of some interest and use to Tau players. Keep in mind that the game IS new, and strategies and perceptions will change over the coming weeks - but I'm fairly confident that these are fairly basic thoughts, and touch on the core strengths and weaknesses of units. Please, feel free to comment and offer ideas and thoughts, but I'd appreciate it if flaming and arguing can be restrained until the guide is finished. Lets work together on this, not butt heads.

Thanks!

[ TAU BUILDS ]

The Standard Assault

Builder > Barracks, que Generator
Que Builder > assist Barracks, Generator
Que Stealth Team > cap points
Que Stealth Team > cap points
Research Jump Jets
Barracks > Commander > que Firewarriors
Builders > begin building Listening Posts

This build gets you a fighting force out quickly, which can put down other Tier 1 fighting forces when well microed. Keep your commander dancing around enemy squads and away from enemy melee heroes, as his Flamer is very important early on - it breaks squads very quickly (not to mention doing good damage) and is important to make the most of your Fire Warriors and their small numbers. If you feel like they're going to have a strong Tier 1 presence based on your first encounter, you should que up a second team of Firewarriors immediately. A commander with two Firewarrior teams puts out a lot of DPS, and will win outright over other Tier 1 squads with basic micro. Just make sure to utilize your Commanders flamer as much as you can. After your second squad of Firewarriors, you could go for a Kroot Barracks squad of Carnivores. They are exceptional melee units, and can absorb tremendous punishment. A single squad will hold you over for quite a while when supported with Fire Warriors.

You'll sometimes find yourself stuck in a position where heavy melee harassment has forced you into an eternal "dance" with units such as Raptors, where you cannot fire at them while moving. On the other hand, ranged units in Dark Crusade have a triffle 10% accuracy while movin (read: chasing you), thus causing a stalemate. In this case, the Kroot barracks should be your immediate goal (even if you don't have your second Firewarrior squad out yet) and begin employing squads of Kroot to clog the enemy and get your Firewarriors the time and distance they need to turn your enemies to ash.

The Kroot Rush

Builder > Kroot Nest, que Generator
Que Stealth Team > cap points
Que Builder > assist Generator
Que Stealth Team > cap points
Kroot Nest > Kroot Carnivores > Kroot Carnivores
Builders > build first Listening Posts

Update: After revising this, I've found it's not really necessary to tech up quickly to obtain Feral Leap.

This build is extremely effective when used against SM and Chaos, but less so against other races who will be able to out-dance you due to either abilities or numbers. Your Carnivores will come out very quickly, and will put most players in a defensive mindset very quickly, as Kroot never seem to die. Strive to get 2-3 listening posts before starting your reinforcing, as once you do, your requisition will be bottomed out eternally unless you are prepared. If you do find yourself hurting due to reinforcement costs, dance one of your squads away and shut their reinforcements of while you save up for another LP; once you've optained it, set overwatch back on and rejoin the fray. If a hero unit begins attacking one of your squads, run it away and go decap a point or kill builders or whatnot - heroes are generally slower than your Carnivores, so you can simply keep running that squad around, harassing other areas of his base while your other squad decimates his attack troops in melee as they spawn in.

As resources permit, I suggest going for your Path to Enlightenment, and either Broadsides or Skyrays. Either will work to seal the deal. I've not had a match last long enough for this however, as most players tend to give up as they enter a resource-hole that they can no longer escape from.

Visit the "Tau Racial Strategies" section to find examples of the Kroot Rush build in action.

The Vespid Rush

Builder > Kroot Barracks
B]Que Builder[/B] > assist Kroot Barracks
Que Stealth Team > cap points
Que Stealth Team > cap points
Barracks completed > build Vespids
Builders > Listening Posts

As soon as your barracks is completed, build your Vespid squad. Vespids have a Shred attack which does enormous damage to enemy buildings. If you get them in their base, you can obliterate any generator/banners/posts or whatever presents the opportunity. Your first priorty should always been the anticipation of a turret and it's immediate destruction, before anything else. If you try to attack another building, you'll end up losing your entire squad, and it'll hurt you more than it hurts them. Shortly after, your Kroot Carnivores should begin arriving, and mixing it up with the enemy forces. Keep using your Vespids to delay their economy as you begin your buildup.

A good tactic is to hold your Vespids and a Stealthsuit near their base until they engage your forces elsewhere, then immediately attack the Listening Posts in their base and decap them. The only way they can stop this is to build turrets in their base (which detect Stealthsuits), which further strains their resources and forces them on the defensive.

Note: I've recently changed this build to a Kroot-focused approach, as Carnivores are cheaper and you can simply do more with them than Firewarriors or a Commander due to cost issues. You can easily have two Kroot Carnivore squads in their base along with your Vespids, whereas with many builds you'd have Vespids and a single squad of 3 Firewarriors, which gets overwhelmed quickly.

Build Continuation

Once you have roughly 3 LPs, you have a few options.

Turret Up - If you are taking heavy harassment and are forced on the defensive, you can build an LP2 which will allow you to wear the enemy down while fleein their attacks, and will also help boost your economy earlier. Tau lack stand alone turrets, meaning that getting an early LP2 in a good position can help you dissuade base harassment early on from mobile units such as Raptors and Assault Marines.

Kroot Up - Build a Kroot Barracks immediately after your second Fire Warrior squad (before teching up) and a squad of Kroot. They last a long time, reinforce fast, and are useful the entire game, even against units like Berserkers. They make great meatshields, and front-line cappers. You can have them decapping enemy points while the enemy keeps firing on them (just overwatch them temporarily), while your ranged units hose down the attackers. This will put more "boots on the ground" than the Tech Up option, and earlier, which will be more and more necessary due to hard caps teaching people to build more tier 1 and tier 2 units which may overhwelm you if you opt to Tech Up.

Tech Up - My usual choice is to build a 2nd generator and then a quick Path to Enlightenment as soon as possible. From there I immediately upgrade optics and get feral leap, and construct a Kroot Barracks, for reasons mentioned above. It's great to have Kroot with Feral Leap before you have vehicles, because enemy AV units (Sentinels, Tankbustaz, etc) will obliterate them in seconds (Sentinels take two shots to kill a Skyray, for example) if you don't deal with them first. Having Kroot leaping into their AV units all the time will enable you to move to vehicles in a more stable manner. I also like this option as it allows you to quickly get a Missile Launcher and Fusion Blaster for your Commander, which leads directly to the Plasma Rifle - a very powerful upgrade. It also leads to Firewarrior leaders and Shield Drones, which scale your Firewarriors nicely into higher tiers.

[ TAU UNITS BY TIER ]

R = Requisition, P = Power, s = Seconds (seconds listed a second time are for leader units)
Squad sizes are listed as initial squad total + reinforcements total + leader total.

Tier 1 Units

Tau Commander
Cost: 250R, 55P
Squad Cap: N/A
Reinforce: N/A
Squad Size: 1
Health/Morale: 1000/700
Damage: 100-120, 100-120
Range: Burst Cannon 40, Flamer 15, Fusion Blaster 25, Missile Launcher 45, Plasma Rifle 40

Abilities: Snare Trap, Target Aquired, Jump Jets
Upgrades: Flamer, Missile Pods, Fusion Blaster, Plasma Rifle

The Tau Commander is a great new addition to the game - certainly one of the more powerful command units when microed well. He dishes out a constant stream of punishing damage, and his abilities are quite useful. His snare is exceedingly useful, in fact - the effect is something around an 80% reduction in movement speed, if not more. This is great for finishing off enemy commanders which are trying to escape, preventing melee units from reaching your Fire Warriors early on (very important), and more. The snares cost 30 power to deploy, so early on you'll want to conserve them, but later you'll find they are too valuable to pass up. Target Aquired itself is a powerful ability when combined with good micro - it gives a nice initial damage boost in a fight against another hero early on, which can make the difference between winning and losing. Or, in some cases, it can be used as a finisher if someone decided to stay until the last minute - fire it off and that will be the end of that!

His versatility and potency only improve in the second tier, and boy do they improve. Right in time for vehicles, you are able to add both Missile Pods and a Fusion Blaster, both of which do great damage to vehicles and buildings, with Missile Pods having great, constant disruption of enemy infantry units. Immediately after the Fusion Blaster, you're able to get the juicy Plasma Rifle, which seems to be the ultimate ranged weapon, able to cut through infantry in mere nanoseconds, with vehicles and buildings not faring much better. Not only that, but it has immense range, out to the very edge of the screen. A truely powerful combination.

All of this is being utilized at once, with the mobility of a jump-jet commander. A true winner in every stage of the game - so long as you use him less like a hammer and more like a scalpel!

Tip: When facing the Necrons, upon slaying their Necron Lord, place a Snare Trap on his corpse to snare him when he gets up, allowing you to kill him again. And again, and again, and again, if you're lucky. Thanks to Shinova (http://forums.relicnews.com/showpost.php?p=1824505&postcount=12) for this cunning suggestion!

XV15 Stealth Team
Cost: 85R
Squad Cap: 1
Reinforce: 85R, 12s, 30s
Squad Size: 1+2+1
Health/Morale: 250/300
Damage: 4, 5-8
Range: Burst Cannon 25, Fusion Blaster 25

Abilities: Jump Jets, EMP Grenade
Upgrades: Fusion Blaster, XV25 Leader, Jet Packs, Stealth Burst Cannon Enhancements Target Lock, Advanced Pulse Rifle, Targeting Optics

Great unit for it's initial purpose, which is point capping, and point harassing. They can fire while invisible, but that certainly doesn't mean it's a wise idea. Their damage is terrible, and while they can kill heretics and other weak builders, or at least harass them - you do not want to be fooled into thinking these are an effective fighting force early in the game - that comes later, and in a very specific fashion. Feel free to research jump jets to make them even more mobile and effective at harassing, but keep them moving, keep them harassing, and keep them away from detector units. Early on, the only things that will reveal your Stealthsuits are Necron builders and the Imperial Guard's Scanner, but they are fortunately unarmed, and Necrons are very slow, meaning you'll have plenty of time to move before reinforcements arrive to stop your harass. Be mindful of Imperial Guardsmen, however, as they can put a hurt on your Stealthsuits if their massive numbers catch him in the midst of capping a valuable point! Also keep in mind that you are revealed while decapping, so if you're going to harass near or in the enemy base, decap and move without delay. This is why jump jets help, allowing you to jump in, decap, and jump out again with haste.

Make sure to conserve your Stealthsuit teams into Tier 2, avoiding their unecessary demise. In the mid to later tiers, you'll find that they are suprisingly effective at taking out enemy vehicles and buildings with their Fusion Blaster upgrades. For maximum effectiveness, always upgrade them first with their leader, who comes equipped with his own Fusion Blaster, as well as the ability to throw vehicle-jamming EMP grenades. After that, reinforce and upgrade them with additional Fusion Blasters on a 1:1 basis until the squads are full, and go hunting! Remember to avoid detector units, and you'll end up a real thorn in your foe's ass.

Tip: If you encounter early detector units such as Cultists or Guardians which can out-fight your Stealthsuits, play hop-scotch with them for points. Instead of jumping away from them back into friendly territory, jump over and behind them and decap any points they've recently captured which don't have LPs on them yet.

Vespid Stingwings
Cost: 300R, 50P
Squad Cap: 2
Reinforce: 50R, 10P, 12s, 30s
Squad Size: 5+1
Health/Morale: /300
Damage: 28-36, 22-25
Range: Neutron Blaster 20

Abilities: Sonic Pulse, Shred, Jump
Upgrades: Elder Strain Leader

Another potent unit, making for the perfect base-rusher. Not only are they speedy in movement, but speedy in production - instant, in fact. They have zero build time, so make use of it aggressively or defensively as the situation calls for it. Offensively, their Shred ability can make mincemeat of almost any tier 1 building in their path, especially Generators, which can seriously hamper an opponent's economy. Defensively, they are detectors for cloaked units, so if you find yourself having problems with early cloaked harassment, Vespids are going to be your solution, albeit an expensive one. You don't have turrets, so you'll have to make due. Whatever you use them for, make sure that you use them wisely - they are too expensive to just throw away, and they are damned fragile, even for the Tau. Hit and run is the name of the game at any stage in the game. Do not use them for combat with enemy troops! They are simply not equipped to do so, and are too expensive to lose at an early point in a game. Some suggest to set them to ranged stance and let them attack from afar, but this is risky and they are better suited to hit and run attacks on vital targets while the enemy is distracted.

Tip: Use Vespids in conjunction with Stealthsuits to quickly and effectively destroy and decap enemy listening posts/points. The Vespid's sonic blast can provide valuable cover-fire for your Stealthsuits during this vulnerable time. Both units can jump, and make a great hit and run team, scaling into Tier 2 when Stealthsuits get their Fusion Blasters.

Kroot Carnivores
Cost: 160R
Squad Cap: 2
Reinforce: 40R, 12s
Squad Size: 4+6
Health/Morale: /300
Damage: 33-45, 10-15
Range: Kroot Rifle 15

Abilities: Feral Leap
Upgrades: N/A

A wonderful melee unit which scales well into the later game. They come with great numbers, nearing even the Guardsmen with a maximum of ten per squad. Combined with great resillience, good melee damage, and fairly cheap costs, they are your premier early game melee soldiers, and later game meatshields/fodder. Once you get Feral Leap, they become a great attack force, which is able to put the hurt on many types of units, disrupting them as well as damaging and stunning them. Don't be afraid to reinforce these guys to keep them absorbing enemy fire. If you are finding them useful in tier 2 as an attack force of whatever variety, be sure to attatch Kroot Shapers to them, which will greatly increase their speed and health.

In addition, Kroot Carnivores are able to utilize the ability which mroe or less gives them their namesake - Cannibalize! This ability allows them to eat fallen units on the battlefield, which both heals them and boosts the maximum health of all Carnivores on the field. While unconfirmed, it is possible that this bonus stacks multiple times - but even if it doesn't, it goes without saying that you should use this ability at every opportunity.

Tip: A great tactic to use with Carnivores is to engage an enemy force with your Carnivores, and while the melee ensues, have your Commander throw a Snare Trap right into the middle of the fray. When it goes off - ensnaring the enemy - you can move your Kroot away to another target of opportunity while your Firewarriors obliterate the nearly-immobile squad.

Tip #2: Try to use your Feral Leap against squads similar in size to your Carnivore squads, or else a lot of the leaps will be wasted, such as on a single builder.

Fire Warrior Squad
Cost: 210R
Squad Cap: 2
Reinforce: 70R, 12s, 20s
Squad Size: 3+3+2
Health/Morale: /300
Damage: 10, 46-53
Range: Pulse Rifle 35

Abilities: Photon Grenade, Energy Shield
Upgrades: Advanced Pulse Rifle, Improved Metallurgy, Targeting Optics

Your bread and butter infantry unit, even if they are a glass cannon. Don't let their fragility dissuade you, they pack the meanest low-tier infantry punch in the game, and it scales very well into later tiers when concentrated and upgraded. They are fairly expensive for infantry, and coupled with their lack of constitution, you'll have to micromanage them well in conjunction with your Commander, and later (or sooner, depending on your build) Kroot of all kinds. They are not disposable, and require dancing like Eldar units do - but it pays off greatly, as they outshoot anything and everything at this point in the game. As you reach tier 2, you get a versatile selection of two leaders, which you can mix and match as you desire. The Fire Warrior Sha'sui, who acts like your typical "sergeant", bringing Photon Grenades to disrupt and damage enemy units.. and your Shield Drone, which bestows the Energy Shield ability, which renders your squad nigh-invulnerable for a period of time, enabling them to face turret emplacements quite nicely; a Commander with two shielded Firewarrior squads can literally break their way into a turret-defended base with minimal support from other units.

All in all, Fire Warriors scale very well, and later upgrades simply put them over the top in cost effectiveness.

Tier 2 Units

XV88 Broadside Team
Cost: 240R, 120P
Squad Cap: 3
Reinforce: N/A
Squad Size: 3
Health/Morale: /1500
Damage: 0, 168-217
Range: Missile Launcher 30, Railgun 40

Abilities: N/A
Upgrades: N/A

Ah, the Broadsides - how much we expected of you. In theory, these units would be outstanding - mobile heavy weapons platforms in teams of three, with the ability to either disrupt infantry and do significant damage to buildings and vehicles with their missile pods, or the ability to rip buildings and vehicles a new one with their railguns from immense range. In practice, Broadsides are hampered significantly by either bugs (hopefully) or their intended implementation (hopefully not). The fact of the matter is, once they are Entrenched in order to make use of their Railguns, they are unable to be ordered to attack targets of your chosing. Instead, they attack the nearest "valid" targets, which include buildings and vehicles, over infantry. Without the ability to focus their impressive firepower on vital targets which are posing the most threat to your army or structures, their DPS is dilluted and their usefulness falls into debatability. To top it off, they are very, very fragile, and coupled with immobility, they are easy prey to a wide variety of units. For now, I'd say they are average to sub-par, at best.. and an exercise in futility at worst.

Tip: Broadsides can be transported in Devilfish Transports. Sneak them into the rear of enemy bases, unload and entrench them, and watch the buildings come tumbling down. If enemies show on the radar in response, quickly mobilize them and hop them back into the Devilfish for a quick, stealth getaway.

Pathfinder Squad
Cost: 150R, 40P
Squad Cap: 2
Reinforce: 75R, 20P, 12s
Squad Size: 2+3
Health/Morale: /300
Damage: 10, 13-16
Range: Pulse Rifle 25

Abilities: Markerlight
Upgrades: N/A

You should always incorporate at least one squad of Pathfinders into your main infantry force if you have significant numbers of ranged troops. Firstly, you will be facing units like cloaked Tankbustaz, which are extremely dangerous to your very fragile vehicles, such as the Skyray and Hammerhead. Pathfinders are one of your detector units, thus you will be able to nullify this threat effectively with your superior firepower. Secondly, Pathfinders have the amazing Markerlight ability, which increases the ranged damage sustained by the targeted squad by 75% - that is enormous, and can put down extremely dangerous enemies in the blink of an eye. Imagine all of your Fire Warriors dealing somewhere around 110 damage a shot? That adds up very quickly. In addition, this bonus damage applies to Crisis Suits, Commander, Broadsides, and even your allies' ranged units. I think you get the picture. Be careful with them though, as they are somewhat expensive and are a small squad, thus vulnerable to concentrated fire. They also tend to move closer to the enemy than your other ranged units, so keep a close eye on them.

Kroot Shaper
Cost: 100R, 50P
Squad Cap: N/A
Reinforce: N/A
Squad Size: 1
Health/Morale: 1000/
Damage: 55-70, 50-60
Range: Kroot Shaper Rifle 25

Abilities: N/A
Upgrades: N/A

I've touched on him earlier with regards to Kroot Carnivores, but it bears mentioning again. More or less, he's a Commissar that happens to have dreadlocks and a beak, aside from lacking the ability to kill his own men. Attatch him to your Carnivore squads, and they're suddenly doing their job better, which consists primarily of being shot at and clogging up enemy formations for the sake of your expensive ranged units. On his own, he's a fairly potent unit, but nothing to write home about.

Drone Squad
Cost: 120R, 210P
Vehicle Cap: 2
Reinforce: 70R, 40P, 20s
Squad Size: 3+2
Health/Morale: /
Damage: 0, 100-140
Range: Twin Pulse 10

Abilities: Burrow
Upgrades: N/A

These are basically Harbiner Drones, like the ones launched from the Drone Harbinger, but these are permanent and can be used near important locations such as Criticals and Relics to utterly destroy capping squads trying to leech your points away. They do good damage, are fairly survivable, and you usually have the element of suprise with them. However, make note that their attacks are very short range, about the distance of a flamer; this isn't necessarily a bad thing, however, as the Drones will explode on the enemy when they die, so you'll want them relatively close regardless of their weapons' range. More or less defensive units - the Drone Harbiner will give you the same Drones in a better offensive capacity.

Devilfish Transport
Cost: 50R, 75P
Vehicle Cap: 1
Reinforce: N/A
Squad Size: 1
Health/Morale: 750/0
Damage: 0, 25-30
Range: Burst Cannon 30, Twin Pulse 30

Abilities: N/A
Upgrades: N/A

The stealth-bomber of the Tau world. I can hear you laughing now, but I assure you that these extremely cheap units are worth their weight in gold. You can most likely transport your entire ranged force in two or three of these, which includes mechanized suits - but the best part is that you can transport them cloaked! That is a massive advantage, even with detector units being commonplace in later tiers. You could easily slip two of these past a battle which your Kroot are engaged in as a distraction, and whisk them to the rear of an enemy base.. this is one situation in which I'd actually say that Broadsides, bugs or not, would be highly useful in. Load up a Devilfish with them, pop them out and entrench in the rear of an enemy base, and have them rip into targets of opportunity. As soon as a response is mustered, you can pop them back in and escape - it'll be highly unlikely that they'll be able to detect your Devilfish for long even if they brought detectors with them, as it is fairly speedy. All in all, the cheap cost, quick speed, passive cloaking and good capacity make this a unit for the truely skilled to put to use like no other transports.

Tip: Broadsides can be transported in Devilfish Transports. Sneak them into the rear of enemy bases, unload and entrench them, and watch the buildings come tumbling down. If enemies show on the radar in response, quickly mobilize them and hop them back into the Devilfish for a quick, stealth getaway.

Skyray Missile Gunship
Cost: 100R, 225P
Vehicle Cap: 3
Reinforce: N/A
Squad Size: 1
Health/Morale: 1000/0
Damage: 0, 132-170
Range: Missile Launcher 50

Abilities: Missile Barrage
Upgrades: Improved Metallurgy

This is a fairly difficult vehicle to use effectively against a skilled opponent, merely due to it's extreme fragility. While it provides tremendous disruption and damage, it is more vulnerable to anti-vehicle fire than perhaps any other vehicle in the game; a sentinel can pop them in two shots from it's fearsome lascanon, from long range! However, when protected sufficiently with both units and a keen awareness of one's surroundings, these units are able to employ their devastatingly powerful Missile Barrage, which can wipe out squads, buildings, vehicles, you name it.. in one or two volleys at most. The last thing the targets of your Skyrays will see are streaks of cleansing blue, before wishing they'd seen the error in denying the Greater Good.

Drone Harbinger
Cost: 100R, 200P
Vehicle Cap: 5
Reinforce: N/A
Squad Size: 1
Health/Morale: 750/0
Damage: 0, 100-140
Range: Burst Cannon 25

Abilities: Launch Harbinger Drone*
Upgrades: Improved Metallurgy

A very interesting vehicle, and one which I've not gotten to use all that much yet. However, in limited practice, it is a highly versatile and potent vehicle, which serves a unique role on the battlefield. You see, the Harbinger doesn't actually need to be in the line of fire of any enemies, because it doesn't have to do any of the fighting itself. Instead, it launches Harbinger Drones* as listed below. The most useful and unique feature of the vehicle is that it can set it's own rally point to the battle, for the benefit of it's tiny attackers. They're suprisingly survivable in practice, because they tend to mix in with your other units, more or less supplementing your attack force's heavy firepower. While each one costs thirty power, they do a great deal of damage, and are fairly autonomous, attacking whatever falls in their sights. You can keep pumping drones out as long as you have the power to produce the them, limited only by the timer on the launch ability (roughly 5 seconds, I'd wager).

*Harbinger Drone
Cost: 30P
Squad Cap: N/A
Reinforce: N/A
Squad Size: N/A
Health/Morale: 325/0
Damage: 0, 100-140
Range: Twin Pulse 10

Abilities: N/A
Upgrades: N/A

Tier 3 Units

Etheral
Cost: 175R, 200P
Squad Cap: N/A
Reinforce: N/A
Squad Size: 1
Health/Morale: 1500/500
Damage: 33-46, 0

Abilities: Air Caste Strike, Holographic Projection, Summon Honor Guard
Upgrades: N/A

The Etheral is a mystical unit, which has a few unique abilities, but a dangerous frailty which can seriously hamper your forces morale and health, possibly costing you the battle - or the war. Due to the penalties inflicted on your forces when the Etheral is slain, you would best be served keeping him in a safe, secure location, from whence he can create the lethal Honor Guard units, which are detailed below. They are not inherently attatched to him, so you would more or less be using the Etheral as a "Honor Guard" barracks. He does possess a powerful airstrike ability similar to that of the Force Commander - the Air Caste Strike. It does little appreciable damage to buildings, thus is relegated to an anti-infantry role; however, if you are making use of Kroot units to engage enemy forces (as you should be) this may prove costly for you as well. It would be better utilized in a ranged-heavy army, such as one comprised of Fire Warriors, Crisis Suits, Skyrays, and other such units, who will typically be out of the line of fire of the Etheral's airstrike. Last, but not least, the Etheral possesses the unique "Holographic Projection" ability, which allows him to create a copy of targeted units. Very useful on fragile and important units such as Hammerheads, Crisis Suits, Skyrays, and so forth. Creative, skilled players will surely find many ways to make use of this ability in game-altering fashion.

Honor Guard
Squad Cap: 2
Cost: 0
Reinforce: 70p
Squad Size: 4
Health/Morale: /500
Damage: 10, 62-80

Abilities: N/A
Upgrades: N/A

Honor Guard units are created by the Etheral, as detailed above. They are free to produce, and serve as fully upgraded, elite Fire Warriors which have immense range and overall potency - even against buildings. They are limited only by the timer of the Etheral's ability used to summon them, and are independant of the Etheral as well as each other. These units would be best utilized as your heavy assault units, attacking from flanks to quickly obliterate your enemies valuable units from great distances, with immense firepower. Enemy command units and expensive heavy infantry are prime targets for these heavy hitters.

*Mont'ka - Path of the Killing Blow

XV8 Crisis Suit
Cost: 180R, 40P
Squad Cap: 2
Reinforce: 75R, 20P, 12s
Squad Size: 5
Health/Morale: 2500/600
Damage: 0, 225-270
Range: Burst Cannon 35, ? ?

Abilities: Jump Jets
Upgrades: Missile Pods, Flamer

A controversial unit at this point in time. While they certainly pack a mean punch, they are fairly slow and fragile against incoming fire. Don't treat them like vehicles, but rather heavy infantry units - emplacements such as bolter turrets and heavy infantry fire can make short work of them, so keep tabs on your jump jet ability to get them into an advantageous position. Due to these problems, I'd certainly recommend against the Flamers, unless you are facing a melee-heavy enemy and have lots of melee units yourself to tie them up. If you can manage to get close to your targets, the Flamers will make short work of them, breaking them extremely fast and doing a great deal of damage in addition to their primary weaponry. Otherwise, go with the Missile Pods which have range parallel to that of their main armament. Used in conjunction with the Commander, who is also able to utilize jump jets, you have a hard hitting team. Just pay close attention to how you use them, or you'll regret it.

Hammerhead Gunship
Cost: 150R, 275P
Vehicle Cap: 3
Reinforce: N/A
Squad Size: 1
Health/Morale: 2700/0
Damage: 0, 143-162
Range: Burst Cannon 35, Rail Gun 50

Abilities: N/A
Upgrades: N/A

The famous Hammerhead, also known as the "Railhead" is a signature unit in the Tau tabletop lineup. Known for it's ability to make even Monoliths wary of it's devastating cannon, it has always been a primary target for enemies. In Dark Crusade, however, it's more in line with other armored units. As the description states, it is a tank which sways the balance of offense and defense towards the tip of it's railgun, in lieu of heavy armor. Like the Skyray, although to a lesser extent, it is fragile and should fall in behind your lines to produce the maximum effect. It's armament does great damage to enemy vehicles and buildings alike, and it makes a good addition to your army. Never use them in an army without a Pathfinder unit, however, as cloaked anti-vehicle units will be able to rip it to shreds with impunity, wasting your resources and time.

*Kauyon - Path of the Patient Hunter

Kroot Hound Pack
Cost: 260R, 60P
Squad Cap: 3
Reinforce: 50R, 15P, 10s
Squad Size: 4+4
Health/Morale: /800
Damage: 170-250, 0

Abilities: N/A
Upgrades: Feral Leap

Essentially, they're Kroot Carnivores but slanted towards offense rather than providing a meatshield for your army. Same feral leap, but a great deal more damage - enough to put a gash into any target they encounter. They do seem fairly fragile though, so make sure to use them in conjunction with any Kroot Carnivores you have left, rather than a spearhead for your army by themselves.

Krootox
Cost: 150R, 275P
Vehicle Cap: 3
Reinforce: N/A
Squad Size: 1
Health/Morale: 6500/
Damage: 275-375, 400-500
Range: Krootox Rifle 15

Abilities: N/A
Upgrades: Improved Metallurgy

A true beast. With 6,500 un-buffed health, and somewhere around 8,500 health upgraded, they're nigh impossible to kill in any normal sized engagement. If you don't have Improved Metallurgy by the time you get Krootox, you had better get it right now. They do tremendous damage with their melee, and in small groups can serve as the perfect bulldozer to spearhead your army, soaking up tremendous fire and destroying any and all defensive positions before the finally do surrender their lives. They do great damage while closing in, but their range is very short and their gunfire is terribly inaccurate. In any case, 400-500 damage a shot is nothing to sneeze at, unless you're allergic to ass-whupping.

Tier 4 Units

Greater Knarloc
Cost: 400R, 400P
Vehicle Cap: 5
Reinforce: N/A
Squad Size: 1
Health/Morale: 10,800/
Damage: 600-800, 0

Abilities: N/A
Upgrades: N/A

While the Knarloc seems to be a true "uber unit", it actually might prove a tad underwhelming when compared to those of other races, merely due to it being ill-equipped for engaging large numbers of attackers, such as the Baneblade or Monolith. It focuses on one target at a time, and attacks fairly slowly.. and it's disruption isn't on par with the aforementioned tier 4 units (though that is a double edged sword). In any case, it does possess a great amount of health and armor, and absorbs damage like no other. Combined with Krootox, you have a truely unstoppable wall for the rest of your army to follow behind.

[ MONT'KA vs. KAUYON ]

Ah, the heated debate - should one pursue the path of the Killing Blow, or that of the Patient Hunter? Both have their strengths and weaknesses, and people will always have opinions one way or the other, but we must take a practical, logical approach to what will be more effective in the majority of situations we are likely to encounter. Before we begin our thought process, let's summarize which units and upgrades each Path provides:

Mont'ka Path:
XV8 Crisis Suits
Hammerhead Gunships

Kauyon Path:
Kroot Hounds
Krootox
Improved Metallurgy
Advanced Optics

Already, it's rather clear that the Kauyon path provides more options than the Mont'ka, but that isn't enough to justify a stance either way, necessarily. We've already covered these units in the guide, however, and looking back in retrospect we can see that the units offered by the Kauyon path are all more than viable; they're above average units which provide an extremely useful element to the Tau gameplay approach by being durable. However, they're not only durable, but are extremely damaging in the attack, as well. However, as we peer back at the two offerings of the Mont'ka outpost, we find that both are relatively fragile units, prone to being destroyed by keen player opponents. Units like infiltrated Tankbustaz with their ability to creep around and hit your vauluable units where it hurts, and Sentinels with their highly damaging weaponry and quick maneuverability prove challenging for the Hammerhead, regardless of it's immense firepower. The Crisis suit finds it easier to escape harm via it's potent jump jet ability, however is otherwise a sluggish unit which is still quite vulnerable to concentrated fire, forcing it to hang behind your main attack force in many instances.

Another problem with relying on the firepower provided by the Mont'ka path is that you miss out on two important upgrades which apply to a large variety of units - Improved Metallurgy and Advanced Optics. These two upgrades alone can give your Krootox bonus health equivalent to an entire XV8 Crisis Suit.. and it applies to every Krootox you build. It also scales your Fire Warriors effectively into tier 3, allowing them to masssively out-range everything, keeping them out of the way of serious harm while allowing them to continue their punishing assault.

This is not to say that the Hammerhead and XV8 Crisis Suits are poor units, but perhaps simply overshadowed by the potential gains offered by the Kauyon path, at this point in the game's balancing.

Updated Impressions: Well, as the games-played count has skyrocketed over the last week, and a general "flow" of typical tactics has arisen amonst the various races, some uses have cropped up for the Mont'ka with regards to two particular races - Space Marines, and the Imperial Guard. I'll keep this relatively simple.

* Space Marines - The very unit which they were gifted with in Dark Crusade is the very reason why you should consider taking the Mont'ka path over the Kauyon. The reason being is that your primary reason for taking the latter approach, your Krootox, have Daemon armor. Gray Knights will make very, very short work of even the massive health of your Krootoxes, and you'll quickly find yourself in a resource expenditure hole. Krootox are slow, and fairly lacking in agility, and make easy prey for the elite Daemonhunter chapter.

* Imperial Guard - Quite simply, they don't have enough melee units to prompt a need for heavy melee units as a meatshield. Good Imperial Guard players will just micro away from them with their vehicles, and wear them down in the process. Your ranged units and vehicles, when properly utilized, will make short work of everything they have to offer, especially now that their only durable unit, Orgryns, are capped at 1 squad. Your Hammerheads will obliterate any of their chosen vehicles so long as you keep them relatively safe, and your Crisis Suits mobility enable you to quickly get behind enemy forces to destroy HWTs and Basilisks.

Against the other races, I still feel that you will get more mileage out of your extremely tough Krootox and highly damaging Hounds. Just make sure to get Improved Metallurgy immediately.

Credit: Spadez for harassing me about the Kauyon vs. Mont'ka debate!

[ TAU RACIAL STRATEGIES ] - Under heavy construction!


Tau vs. Necrons

Vespid/Kroot Rush

Here is a replay showing the potential for a Kroot and Vespid rush against a Necron player. Give the slow speed of Necron forces, both in building and in travel, Vespids and their mobility, coupled with Shred, are capable of putting the hurt on Necron economy right from the word "go". However, as Compeador eventually pointed out, the Necron was attempting to out-melee the Kroot for most of the game, but rather should have been dancing away. Necron Warriors seem to suffer very little if any penalty to firing while moving, thus dancing Necrons away constantly will both lower their damage recieved, and put down Kroot more effectively than if they were meleeing. In melee, Necron Warriors would be knocking wounded Kroot away, thus prolonging their lives as targets are switched constantly to other, potentially less-wounded individuals. The Necron lord should be used to disrupt and slow Kroot that are chasing the Warriors around. Had these tactics been employed, the outcome would have been less favorable for the Tau!

Nonetheless, the replay shows the proper build order, and emphasizes the "all or nothing" nature of this strategy. Constant reinforcement of the Kroot squads is a debilitating drain on the Tau economy with two or more squads so early in the match, and the Tau player was completely unable to build listening posts for a long period of time.

Replay: Vespid/Kroot vs. Necron (http://www.infinite-war.com/DC/TauTactica_VESPIDvsNECRON.rec)

vs. Warrior Rush

While initially one might scoff at the notion of Necrons "rushing" anything, if they choose to produce Warrior > Lord or (Lord > Warrior) at the onset of the match, they'll have them both done before your first Fire Warrior squad. Usually, they'll meet with your Commander in the middle of the map somewhere and force you to retreat. The only real way to combat this is to snare them with a trap which further slows down their approach, retreat to your base, and regroup there to engage them once you have two teams of Firewarriors.

Ideally, they'll chase you all the way to your base, because any further Warriors they produce will take a long time to reach the battle. This means that you'll outnumber and overpower his attacking units the moment your second squad of Firewarriors is produced. Having two squads of Fire Warriors at this point is critical, because you'll need at least one squad attacking either their Lord or Warriors while the other is dancing around, avoiding the inevitable melee of the Lord.

Keep in mind that during these early engagements, your Stealthsuits should be capturing points all around the map, setting you up with a healthy economy - moreso than against other races which would have cappers out there working to take points in competition with you.

Their economy will be slow at this point, which is to your advantage. If the player is smart, he'll teleport his Lord out of the battle before he dies, for fear of losing him and having to further slow his economy by producing him again. Either way, when he retreats or perishes, you're going to want to press on with an all-out counterattack. They're just now getting some generators built, which means you can quickly get in there and finish off their Lord if they retreated him, which as mentioned before will hamper him that much more. They are now left with no recourse, and their fate is sealed. They cannot hope to produce Warriors fast enough to combat you, as they've spent their efforts on their initial rush, and have few if any Scarabs to capture points, let alone build Obelisks on them yet.

All that is left is for you to mop up their Scarabs and Generators, and finish them off.

Anti-Necron Tips

- In some instances, the Necron Lord and Tomb Spider's ability to be rebuilt where they've fallen in battle is an advantage. However, none of those instances involve the mighty Tau. If you manage to slay a Necron Lord, you can employ two nasty tactics to ruin his next life, and the next, and the next, and so forth. Firstly, the simple Snare Trap can make his life miserable on smaller maps if he dies in a high-traffic area. Simply toss a snare on his corpse, and you'll have a great opportunity to put his dusty old ass right back into a coma whilst he can't escape. Secondly, you can simply build a minefield over his dead body. If not for the fact that he willingly denies the Greater Good, I'd feel sorry for the bastard.

- You don't have to de-capture Necron points to deny them increased build speed, if you're in a hurry - you must only destroy the Obelisk sitting atop it to achieve this. Great for Stealthsuits who you don't want to reveal by de-capturing a point - they can jump-jet around with their Fusion Blasters annihilating Obelisks ad naseum.

Tau vs. Eldar

The key here is putting the pressure on early, as your Tier 1 units are simply going to win out on most of these fights. You'll find that they may gain an early advantage in capping points due to the fact that their Guardians are detectors and cappers, which can destroy your Stealthsuits; you'll end up having to jump your XV15s away fairly often. To counter this, you're going to have to

Anti-Banshee Replay

The replay more or less speaks for itself. Good use of snares will win the day versus Banshees, but don't waste time Flaming them with the Commander. If they manage to get into melee range with any of your units, while they're not snared, it won't matter if they're broken. They'll still tie up your units and delay their destruction which will allow them to get a Farseer out, or other Banshee squads, which can turn the tide against you. Snare them, focus on breaking any supporting Guardians, and go back to killing the Banshees quickly.

As a side note, you see a tactic I employ quite commonly against all races, which is to throw a Snare Trap right near their Barracks or Monolith - this will win you the game once you get into their base. Enemy units will be snared from the get-go, and frankly, there isn't much the enemy can do about this once you have Firewarriors in position to take advantage of this.

Replay: Anti-Banshee Replay (http://www.infinite-war.com/DC/TauTactica_EldarBanshees.rec)

vs. Guardian Spam

While fighting some Eldar players in Dark Crusade, you'll find yourself being swarmed with heavily reinforced squads of Guardians. Not only are they detector units, but their sheer numbers can overwhelm even your mighty Tau firepower at this early stage in the game. You may find yourself facing an enormous squad before your first squad of Firewarriors have arrived on the scene to combat them - and even then, it would be a close battle in their favor, save for one thing: your Commander's flamer. The Commander should ALWAYS have the flamer upgrade the moment he sets foot on solid earth, as it works wonders against all infantry at this stage in the game. Within mere moments of flaming a Guardian squad, it will break. Smarter Eldar opponents will simply retreat them when he sights your firepower (pun intended, unfortunately), and switch tactics (most likely to a Farseer to harass your Commander). As with Chaos and their infiltration-detecting Cultists, always be ready to jump your Stealthsuits away should the enemy be sighted.. They are valuable for their anti-vehicle potential in Tier 2 and beyond, and should not go to waste!

Alternatively, if you went with a Kroot build, simply make sure to balance new units of Kroot with reinforcing the squads you have. You'll ideally want 3 squads, or else you'll simply be danced and needled to death by the squad you aren't chasing. The Commander should still follow soon after - never delay him for too long, as he's too valuable in every stage of the game.

vs. Ranger Rush

There isn't much you can do about this until something is changed with regards to Tau stealth detection. Your only tier 1 detector units are expensive Vespids, which don't pack a terribly useful punch against infantry. Not only that, but you may not be able to afford them before the Rangers kill your builders, thus immensely slowing down your build and economy.

The only thing I can really imagine doing is being really ingenious, and laying a snare trap at the most probable escape-route for the Rangers harassing your base. Have the Vespids chase and melee them into it, and ambush them quickly to destroy them decisively. If you let them survive the snare, you'll most likely not get another chance to kill them until tier 2, which you'll probably never live to see.

If you can get the Rangers out of the way, honestly, the other squads aren't a big problem so long as they've not gained a big lead on you.. because the TC can use his Flamer to break all kinds of Eldar squads, and your Firewarriors will pick them apart. Just make sure to start using your Vespids to pick their important buildings apart, to make up for you paying 300/50 for them. If you can get their cost back by blowing generators or such, you can turn the match around.

Be wary of this tactic, and be frugal with your reinforcements, as you'll never know when you might need that 300 requisition right now to fend this abusive tactic off.

Tau vs. Imperial Guard

Here is a replay between two well-known and capable players, Compeador and Das Cap'n. Compeador shows the standard assault build, however chooses Fire Warriors before his Commander. Through the game, Compeador foregoes Kroot in lieu of masses of Fire Warriors, and the match swings both ways at various points. Das Cap'n uses his Psykers to remind us how vulnerable the Tau Commander is with his low health, and it should serve as a lesson to use him wisely around the Command Squad and Farseer. It also shows that one should never underestimate the firepower of even a few concentrated squads of Fire Warriors against seemingly overwhelming numbers of Guardsmen, as intimidating as such a mass may be.

Replay: Compeador vs. Das Cap'n (http://www.infinite-war.com/DC/TauTactica_COMPEADORvsDASCAPN.rec)


Tau vs. Chaos

Kroot Rush

This replay shows the power of the Kroot Rush, which Chaos tends to fare poorly against due to the nature of their hero, lacking in any damaging AoE attacks. Carnivores are able to out-melee Chaos Space Marines and Raptors alike, and thus pose a real threat to the early Chaos game. You'll see here that I avoided their Chaos Lord in favor of killing their infantry squads - the less time spent being knocked around by the Lord, the better you'll fare. Whenever the Lord tries to enter the fray, split one of your squads off and send him to go decap a point, kill Heretics, or disrupt their economy in some other fashion, while your other squad continus killing any CSMs or Raptors. Keep dancing in this fashion and your Kroot will outlast anything he throws at them. These replays were very short, as both players realized they were more or less helpless to stop this tactic after it was in full swing, and conceded. However, longer matches would have shown that Kroot do terrible damage to buildings, and it would be very prudent to skip the Tau Barracks altogether while you tech up to Kroot Hounds or Skyrays to deal with their base.

Replay 1: Kroot Rush vs. Chaos #1 (http://www.infinite-war.com/DC/TauTactica_KROOTvsCHAOS_1.rec)
Replay 2: Kroot Rush vs. Chaos #2 (http://www.infinite-war.com/DC/TauTactica_KROOTvsCHAOS_2.rec)

COMMING SOON - More racial strategies, and DPS values for Tau units!

[swashy]

Hey ir0nside,

Thanks for the Tau guide. I've been playing them nonstop and loving it.

I've got a few suggestions for the Etheral and his Honor Guard.

For the Etheral:

-Always keep him away from the battle unless you intend to use his Air caste strike.

-Honor Guard are FREE elite troops, always have it on overwatch... to my knowledge they do not take pop cap, I could be mistaken.

-Holographic Projection is a stategist's wet dream. For more straightforward usage, I like to use it on my Hammerheads, it greatly increases their survival rate when the enemy targets a fake one instead of the real one, allowing it to deal much more damage before going down. I can see this skill being generally useful for all of Tau's fragile yet firepower heavy units like the Skyray gunships, although using the missile bombardment skill might give away the real gunship. Although the holographic projection takes more damage than the real unit (so you can't have two 10k hp Greater Knarlocs running about), there's really no way to tell between the real unit and the holographic projection if the real unit is inherently fragile to begin with (Hammerheads and Skyrays).

-Don't use the Air caste strike against buildings unless they are greatly weakened already (it took 3 air caste strikes to take out a plasma generator). The strike works best against clumped infantry as there is no indication that it is coming like the SM's Force commander's orbital bombardment. It greatly disrupts infantry and tosses them around, if they try to regroup to where they were, the strike pulsates a couple more times and will kill them outright unless they move out of hte radius.

Honor Guard:

-These guys are AMAZING. They function as tougher, FULLY upgraded fire warriors in that their damage is incredibly high and they fire (with a spotter) almost 1 and a half screen away... it's disgusting.. almost IMBA. They can be reinforced for 70req a pop as well.

-Strangely a set of four honor guard can take down buildings quite fast. I saw them destroy an IG Mechanized Command at half health within 20 seconds. Don't use them against vehicles however, they will get slaughtered.

[Shas'Aun'Vre]

-Notes on Kroot-


1.The Kroot are our only source of Melee and should be used to defend Tau squads of any sort.

2. Remember to use Canabalize, from feasting on the DNA of enemys the Kroot keep in top fighting shape, normal Kroot could in theory become stronger in melee then a Vetrain Assult Teminater squad, just will take a few battles.
-USE THE ABILITY AFTER EVERY BATTLE-

3. Always attach Shapers to a Kroot squad these guys will give your squads some bonus's which may seem minor, but can mean life or death.

4.Get Feral Leap... Knocksdown enemy melee squads when doing it and also puts Kroot in the front line where their needed. By the time the enemy gets up they're swarmed by Kroot and can barly move. This allows Tau units to set up and unleash hell to your enemys.


-More Later-

P.S. Does anyone know how to and use Snare Mines effectivly yet?

[Oberst-Radetz]

Thanks, ir0n - this is a real help. I have to say, I'm loving the Tau gameplay so far - even with the disappointment of the Broadsides. Even if it weren't for the problems of Crisis suit, also, I'm pretty much a 'Patient Hunter' kind of guy: the Krootox are awesome, but the Firewarrior upgrades have made a believer out of me. Fully upgraded Firewarriors + Pathfinder markerlights + Kroot infantry disruption is a beautiful thing to see.

Here's a question - do the Firewarrior upgrades affect the Honor Guard?

[ir0nside]

Most of what you mention is covered in the tactica already, but you did bring up Cannibalize, which is something I neglected. I'll update that, thanks.


Here's a question - do the Firewarrior upgrades affect the Honor Guard?

I do not believe so - they come fully upgraded, and have their own special values. They're a seperate unit from normal Firewarriors, so, I highly doubt it.

[Emeraldw99]

I agree with a lot of the stuff you said. The commander was once described as a fire storm and I have used him endlessly (I want an XV22 Battlesuit!). He is so great I can't imagine having a tau army without him.

On the snares, they cost 30 power (I think) a piece and require a few moments to activate. Against the AI I could plant them in front of me and the IG general would run right into it. You can also plant one at your feet and then jumppack away and plant another, there is no cooldown on it.

Finally snares are considered stealthed so a detector can target them.

For the Greater Good!

[Shas'Aun'Vre]

Good Idea... people who seem to be winning there battles... post there replays please..

[Emeraldw99]

Replays of how to effectively dance would be the best kind of video for Tau as it will take some time and skill to dance well but we do have the tools, we just need to figure out how to use them the best.

The only thing I have trouble with now is taking down enemy vehicles. Stealth squads are horribly weak and could be taken down quickly if they are seen. If Broadsides were targetable this wouldn't be a problem but at the same time I almost feel if they where it would be almost overpowered because they eat through everything fast with those rail guns (which is the idea :hat:). I'd also like to see early rushes with kroot, also comparing Mont'ka and Kauyon more would be great.

[ir0nside]

I do well with Stealthsuits. Just make sure your first upgrade is the Squad leader, then a fusion gun... then reinforce, fusion gun, reinforce, fusion gun, etc. When you get the leader, you can disable any vehicles with an EMP grenade, allowing other units to chew them apart, if not the fusion-equipped Stealthsuits themselves.

I did list a Kroot Rush build, actually, you get two Kroot units out immediately, before anything else, really. I'll add a Mont'ka vs. Kauyon section in there, too, since there has been plenty of discussion concerning the merits and flaws of both.

[Emeraldw99]

I totally forgot about EMP grenades! Never mind then, the Stealths leader comes with a fusion gun too so between 2 stealths and the commander basic vehicles will go down fine. Also because all units use essentially plasma, taking down even a defiler with T2 Firewarriors is feasible based on my experiance since I had to figure out another way beyond Broadsides. (and Stealth since I forgot about those grenades)

What I meant about the Kroots was taking down (for example) SM's and their force commander. Kroots are great but if someone went for their commander you would have to run since they would get eaten alive and while you compared them to IG they still cost 40 a pop which can add up really quick.

Just a suggestion, I am very much looking forward to more Tau stuff as this is the race I have been waiting for and I am happy to say I wasn't dissapointed :D

Good luck on your guide!

[Shinova]

If you're fighting Necrons and manage to take down a Lord inside your base, have your Commander put a snare trap on top of him to slow him down immediately when he revives.

[Shas'Aun'Vre]

With a bit of Testing I have learned max Canabalizm is +300... also taking Kauyon your Greater Gnarlock is 10 times stronger

[swashy]

Just did a quick test to determine if Honor Guard take up population cap.

They do. They take up 2 pop, which isn't bad at all considering their incredible firepower. This makes Kauyon path upgraded Fire Warriors somewhat redundant because the Honor Guard are just as potent if not more so.

Perhaps this will sway some more people to go down the Montka path unless they were big fans of the shield drone and photon grenades for the fire warriors.

[Prodigalson]

I'm having a hard time dealing with indirect armor, such as Lemun Russ's and what not. My melee is tied upo with infantry up front (orks/ogryn whatever) and when I jump past them with stealths or crisis, I just get destroyed by hth reserve units. I can bring up a hammeread, but they go about 1 to 1 against the tanks.

Perhaps I need to switch out to the Kayon style fight.

[Frank_dark]

pack kollos in youre transporter unload at front line.
Entrench and have a funny time see Tanks killed by 3 Broadsuit´s

[Akranadas]

Ir0nside, I have edited your topic again. The Current Version of Dark Crusade is 1.51 as that the current patch version of Dawn Of War. In future, if a moderator edits your Thread, don't change it back, its for a reason; such as the Guidelines. [DC 1.51]

By the Way, nice work

[ir0nside]

Err, I thought -I- was the one who made it 1.51, and recently edited it back to 1.0, because Dark Crusade is listed as 1.0 in the game itself. Hrm - wasn't trying to counter anything.

Thanks, though. It has a ways to go before I feel it'll be "complete", and of course will have to be tweaked over the weeks as new strategies develop.

[Slyfe]

Due to the vast number of games ive played vs necrons i would add your vespid stingwing squad into your kroot build, carnivores are great at tieing up enemy tier ones units but your lack of a "hero" type unit makes the necron lord or other command unit a royal pain. Vespids on f2 can take down an early game command unit rather quickly while they are tied up in the melee with your kroot. They are also good for dropping foward listening posts or turrets early game so your kroot arnt taking so many causualties that your burning req. in reinforcment.

[ir0nside]

I'll test out Vespids on command units and see how that works out. If it seems effective.. I'll certainly add it, but I have my doubts about vespids damaing Commanders. It'd be neat if they did, though. Hmm..

[Kaikai]

ir0nside, your guide is truly for the Greater Good! :D




For the Etheral:

-Always keep him away from the battle unless you intend to use his Air caste strike.

-Honor Guard are FREE elite troops, always have it on overwatch... to my knowledge they do not take pop cap, I could be mistaken.

nope, 2 pop, but they are awesome anyway.

i still prefer a full squad of firewarriors and two leaders mixed in (instead of a sheild drone) to an elite full squad however.

[Delta_Assault]

Is it worthwhile to get the fusion gun for stealth suits? I mainly rely on Broadsides to take out vehicles, and the fusion gun seems weaker against infantry then the standard stealth gun, right?

[ir0nside]

Delta, you won't be able to rely on Broadsides to take out vehicles when playing live opponents. They're simply too sporadic at this point in time, and will end up targeting infantry and other less-than-ideal units too often against an adapatable foe. Thus, to answer your question, yes - Stealth suits with fusion guns (start by upgrading to a XV25 leader, first - he has his own, as well as the EMP grenade ability) are a key tool for the Tau when utilized properly. They are great for assaulting and capturing LPs (which cannot detect them on their own) and quickly decapping them, vulnerable building like generators in your enemy base (if they're smart they'll throw a turret or two in there, so watch out) and of course, enemy vehicles.

It's not so much the fusion guns themselves, but the fact that the fusion guns are in an infiltrated jump-jetting package which has EMP grenades to disable vehicles. That's why you should save your Stealthsuits and upgade them when you hit Tier 2. =)

This is more or less covered in the Tactica, mind you.

[Quadrophenia]

I found that SM Snipers are extremly effective at taking out Broadsides while playing a friend over a LAN.

I seem to have trouble countering the Knarloc and Krootox backed up by firewarriors though... :(

[Aver]

Iron side this is a great thread & has helped me out alot i think i have to start going for the kroot build also maybe it's just cause i'm a bad player & thought most troop carriers were usless except the imp gaurds one cause for the most part they dont have weapons however the fact that tau's troop carriers are stealth are insane!! great job btw

[ir0nside]

Glad it's helping you! Keep in mind it's just a basic guide right now, and will be updated with more actual strategies vs. other races and such as the days press on, here. I'm just watching, listening, and experimenting before I bumble my way into anything theoretical - I'd rather have some concrete stuff first.

Also, you comment on the Devilfish.. you don't know how amazing this unit has been for me lately. The fact that they are stealthed means that I simply assign one to my main squads, in the same control group. You can just hit your control group's number, right-click the Devilfish, and they'll load up instantly. The fact that it's stealthed means it can travel alongside them, providing even more anti-infantry firepower, without the enemy even realizing it's there with you unless you have a detector.

It honestly makes your entire army VERY mobile, with almost no hassle. They're one of my favorite Tau units, in fact.

[Aver]

yea when i get done from work I'm definatly gonna use them! i like the idea of taking 3 devilfish filling them with units sneaking in past a bases defenses & pwning the hell out of it.

[Shas'Aun'Vre]

Bit of info to add to the stradigy...


The Importance of Snare Traps!

Snare Traps are at high importance to the Tau Empire. They keep units out of the Range of your Tau to be slaughtered or give you the time to flee.

Snare Traps are timed at 20 Seconds then they explode, when they do all enemy units are slowed near the point of not being able to move. Snares do cost some Power, (I think 15) but if used correctly are worth it. Try to put snares ahead of opponents charging at your Tau or right at your Tau army.

I won a battle with 2 Squads of Fire Warriors and my Tau Commander vs. 3 full squads of Kroot Carnivores and a Nercron Warrior Squad. Another time I stopped a Zerker Rush from pwning my Necron ally. (Yet, then his SM ally owned us)

Snare's also stop Units from jumping away!

Also having Kroot jump on your enemy while snared gives you the small advantage of movement helping you swarm them.

Overall learn to use Snare Traps, like Canabalize should not be looked over and can change the tide of a battle quickly.

[Aver]

right now i'm having trouble using snare trap because of the 20second delay is there a way to manually trigger it to go off

[shilfa]

Great job for compiling this ir0nside, it really helps me out in the game as in me being a noob for DoW. What i was wondering though is the effect of having 2 sergeants or 2 drone shields for the fire warrior. Does it increases the speed of the recharge for your nade/shield or it increases the effectiveness of said effect?

[Minrad]

Sigh, I wish Crisis Battlesuits and Hammerhead Gunships were more worth choosing over Krootox, Kroot Hounds, and the unit upgrades..

If only the "Killing Blow" path got the upgrades from the "Patient Hunter" path, so the path you choose only affected if you get better Tau or better Kroot units. =(

[ir0nside]

I think it.. err, you know what? That's a good question, one I'll have to verify. I'd always assumed it gave you two grenades, or two shield options.

[Sandanjuu]

It doesn't, Iron, I verified it earlier during that test I told you about. Not only that, the grenades don't seem to really -do- anything. Have you seen the damage on them? They don't even knock necron warriors back.

Edit: Some more info about the test:

A squad with 2 shields next to a squad with 1 shield, both activate at same time. They wear out at the same time, and the recharge is the same speed, and take the same amount of damage.

I think the only 'purpose' of the redundancy is incase one dies.

[ir0nside]

Well, I think they intended you to use both a leader and a drone; the Grenades aren't particularly powerful, but they do help a bit on some infantry, and keep in mind that the leader is another gun in your squad, which in the case of the Tau is a good thing.

[Vorlock]

Getting 2 warriors has the advantage of having more guns in the squad, as the shield drones dont shoot. (At least, thats the assumption I was making, would be good to test though.)

[ir0nside]

Yeah, I just mentioned that in the post above. Each Firewarrior in the squad provides another 60+ damage when upgraded. However, I would not recommend skipping Shield Drones, as the shield is very powerful, and if you remember to use it, it'll let them really dish out damage without having to dance away.

[Sandanjuu]

I would agree with the idea behind the one guard/one drone thing, except they could have easily capped the squad at 1 drone/2guards. They left it at 2, apparently for a reason. Not sure what that reason is.

[Kaikai]

Sigh, I wish Crisis Battlesuits and Hammerhead Gunships were more worth choosing over Krootox, Kroot Hounds, and the unit upgrades..

If only the "Killing Blow" path got the upgrades from the "Patient Hunter" path, so the path you choose only affected if you get better Tau or better Kroot units. =(
metalurgy and advanced optics being avalible to killing blow would make the 'tree' much more appealing.
but as it stands, the kroot hounds and krootox would kick crisis suits and hammerheads into the dirt anyway.

[shilfa]

Thank you for verifying the 2 leaders/drones issue Sandanjuu and ir0nside. It's a bit dissapointing that having 2 of them doesn't really improved recharges or effects. No matter how much i loved the tau, i can't shake the feeling that they shipped incomplete with the lack of extra research for Mont'ka tree and the fragility and borkness of broadside and Crisis suit. Well let's hoping for them to address the issue at the next patch for the Greater Good.

[Minrad]

metalurgy and advanced optics being avalible to killing blow would make the 'tree' much more appealing.
but as it stands, the kroot hounds and krootox would kick crisis suits and hammerheads into the dirt anyway.

Eh, Krootox and Kroot hounds are just too slow for me. I also believe they can't be loaded onto Devilray Gunships (I know I couldn't fit my Kroot carnivores in them, even when they're empty...), so they can't be sped around the map either. And the range on the Tau is useless for an assault if they're stuck behind a wall that's just too slow to be effective; the "patient hunter" tree really IS meant for defensive strategies and patient players. =P

But I still go the patient hunter tree most of the time just for the range and defense upgrades the Firewarriors and other units receive. Really, I hope a mod (or patch, but I'm not too hopeful there) comes out that enables access to those two on the "killing blow" tree, as well as some way to repair Crisis battlesuits.

[ir0nside]

Minrad, Kroot units are very valuable, even though they are slower than Devilfish. The point is that they tie up and disrupt enemy units, especially anti-vehicle units such as Tankbustaz and so forth. You might consider them defensive in that regard, that they prevent your ranged units from being swamped right away.

When you say, "the range on the Tau is useless for an assault if they're stuck behind a wall that's just too slow to be effective", you're not really making sense. Ranged units are BEST behind a wall of units. Their range allows them to shoot beyond the melee units that are protecting them, and you aren't being kept from moving forward by the melee wall because your ranged units are ranged. That's the whole point.

[fahdiz]

metalurgy and advanced optics being avalible to killing blow would make the 'tree' much more appealing.

Agreed, or the inclusion of two different upgrades for Mont'ka. The two paths are unbalanced at the moment. I've still had success going Mont'ka, but I *do* notice it's easier going with Kauyon.

[tybalt_Lives]

i have won games using only stealth suits with all their upgrades. their very nice teched up. 4 to a squad. having atleast 3 squads.. you could take buildings down very quick.

[Iceciro]

I'd like to see some discussion on how to handle the early rush, especially by Eldar. I'm a bit of a newb, but being rushed down by guardian squads screws me over - they negate early firewarriors by engaging in melee, the second squad nukes my early carnovores while the first squad melees them, and the warlock sees through stealth which negates stealthsuits entirely.

[Minrad]

When you say, "the range on the Tau is useless for an assault if they're stuck behind a wall that's just too slow to be effective", you're not really making sense. Ranged units are BEST behind a wall of units. Their range allows them to shoot beyond the melee units that are protecting them, and you aren't being kept from moving forward by the melee wall because your ranged units are ranged. That's the whole point.

Eh, I admit, I'm not sure what I was saying either, but I very much prefer just using overwhelming firepower at times as opposed to brute force with fire cover to tear the enemy a new one. Take three devilrays with skipray gunship and gun drone cover, fire missile barrages on any turrets in the area, then drop off broadsides in the enemy base and entrench them while you drop off firewarrior squads to cover them while they completely wreck your opponent's economy with their railguns. That's also something where Hammerheads and Crisis suits would come in handy, but...

I just like my firewarriors being more indepent of the Kroot, you know what I'm saying? With the final range upgrade and hp/defense upgrades from the Kauyon path, they do it much better than they do with Hammerhead gunships and Crisis suit cover... instead of needing vehicles to replace the Kroot, you can simply outshoot nearly every enemy at such a great distance you no longer have anything to fear.


I'd like to see some discussion on how to handle the early rush, especially by Eldar. I'm a bit of a newb, but being rushed down by guardian squads screws me over - they negate early firewarriors by engaging in melee, the second squad nukes my early carnovores while the first squad melees them, and the warlock sees through stealth which negates stealthsuits entirely.

Normally, my Firewarrior squad is the fourth, sometimes fifth or sixth squad I'll build. Stealthsuits are always what you want for capturing points early game. If they get sighted, just jetpack away and use them to distract their guardian until you can get a force to fight them with. After 2 of them, I'll build a Kroot barracks and get a squad of them, reinforce it a few times, and work on getting a second squad. They really serve the purpose of Meatshielding very well; normally I can get the 300 rec for a Tau barracks and firewarrior squad/commander in the time they'll spend fighting nearly every early enemy unit. Then you can easily use those to mop up any messes the Kroot made.

Atleast, that's how early game's worked for me so far... I have yet to play a game against Eldar myself, but I don't see it being too different. I could understand their mobility being a time where you WOULD want to adopt the slow and steady kroot wall tactic.

[Iceciro]

Go into normal and 1v1 a standard eldar cpu opponent and you'll see what I mean. While this probably doesnt happen much online, the eldar just start pumping Guardian squads out of thier HQ and charging you... they dont even cap points till like the 4th squad.

[Minrad]

Eh, well that's probably more just the CPU cheating than anything. Obvious proof: Look at the battle results at the end of the game and note the CPU almost always spends more resources than it ever collects.

[ir0nside]

Only Harder and Insane cheat - Standard most certainly does not, and neither does Hard.

As for countering early Guardians, you honestly have nothing to fear. Your Stealthsuits will be more mobile at that point in the game, and you can just dance away from them and distract them until your first Firewarrior squad arrives. Make sure your commander has a Flamer, and get him in close and constantly hose them down and they'll all break fairly quickly.

Guardians do total crap for building damage, and thus won't be destroying your LPs or generators or the like.

Your Firewarriors will out-shoot their Guardians easily.

[Iceciro]

Willing to try anything...freaking comp has a complex about attacking the human player first in FFA or 4 player 4 team games... lol

[kwaadschiks]

does it silence too? teleport?

[Minrad]

Ironside, do you think adding Improved Metallurgy and Improved Optics to the Mont'Ka path would balance the two trees? I've brought it up in a few places, and it seems like it's the minor boost that tree needs. Crisis suits and Hammerheads would both get a small HP boost... still fragile, but a little less so.

If that or a similar balance could be added to the Mont'Ka tree (making Crisis Battlesuit teams a squad of 3 again, for example) and Broadsides could be made better, (aiming them or making them individual units for better micro w/ entrench) I'd be perfectly happy with the Tau.

[ir0nside]

I'd rather see Crisis Suits come in the form of a reinforceable squad to their maximum of three, but yes - I think that those upgrades belong in the Mont'ka tree. They're simply not in line with the Patient Hunter type of thinking, and it's rather odd to see them there. The Kauyon path is Krootox/Melee oriented, while the Mont'ka should be more oriented to range and firepower.

With that said, I think Improved Metallurgy should stay Kauyon.

[Minrad]

Ah, that's true. So Optics would get moved to Mont'Ka, and Metallurgy left as is in Kauyon.

Ah well, time to wait and hope the next patch does something. =/

[Xuioo]

I'm playing singleplayer campaign now, but anyone else thinks that krootox should be caped or nerfed? I can make 6 or 7 in one time, they are though as hell, cheap, and do tons of dmg in hand-to-hand combat.

[Delta_Assault]

I'm playing singleplayer campaign now, but anyone else thinks that krootox should be caped or nerfed? I can make 6 or 7 in one time, they are though as hell, cheap, and do tons of dmg in hand-to-hand combat.
Their pathfinding is rather lame though. That kinda screws up their melee.

[Shas'Aun'Vre]

You might want to add something about the importance of Pathfinders and Marking Targets if you haven't already Ironside, mark targets are meat for firewarriors and Kroot.

Also state the importance of not forgetting to send out Vehicles, I have seen most Tau players do not send them out, Drone Havangers and DevilFish rock!

[FOLrOBOT]

Drone Harbingers produce drones at a rate more like 1 every 3 seconds. And with two Cadre Headquarters allowing for 10 (?) Plasma Generators, one can spam them forever.

[ir0nside]

Of course, but that's rather expensive and not really practical in a real game setting. Heh.

[Minrad]

A single Drone Harbringer does rather well in any assault, even with just 6 plasma gens backing it. Spam 10 drones and it's like having 2 extra fire warrior squads out there.

[ir0nside]

Yep! I wish I had more conviction to utilize Harbingers, as they are certainly powerful units, but lately I tend to get a Devilfish first for a few reasons. Firstly, it's insanely cheap, and useful - as I've covered both in the guide and elsewhere. Secondly, it provides a great view range, which lets you make the most of your troops (taking out LP2s and such becomes trivial with basic Firewarriors + Commander).. and so forth.

After that, I am usually getting a Skyray or two, but it really depends. I am going to have to force myself to make more use of the Drone carrier.

[Eji1700]

I see the harbringer as a great late game unit in team games and whatnot since I don't think you'll see it in automatch. 2 or even 1 with drones on overwatch can just swarm an opponent with high damage drones.

[FootKnight]

I read the first 2 full pages of this thread and skimmed the rest, but I didn't see anyone say anything about this so...

I've found upgraded (Leaders, weapons, and research) Stealthsuits to be amazing. Not only invaulable for thier anti-vehicle power which is lacking with most of the other Tau units, but they can tear through light buildings with ease and put the hurt on medium buildings. They may be little expensive, but I've been using 4 squads recently. At 1 pop cap they don't really limit my main army either. Jumping them into the back of an enemy base, destroying some buildings (power gens, research buildings for instance) and jumping back out can really cripple your oppenent, putting him behind in tech, army size, giving you time, or helping you out before you start a main assualt. Since noone really builds turrets in the back of thier base, they have to divert a detector unit to come reveal your squads, or build a fresh one. As soon as you see a dectector coming you should be jumping out.

I've used Crisis suits for this same thing before, but have found Stealthsuits easier. The Stealthsuits come earlier, won't have everything in the base firing at them immedately, and will regen thier health, letting you stage more hit and runs sooner.

Great guide so far iron.

[PlagueDog]

Krootox being nerfed? Well they better be halfway decent. Like most other Tau units do any of you realize how much it costs to even be able to build them?

[Jarso]

Hey ir0nside, great strategy guide for Tau, awesome job here no doubt. I have a variation of the Vespids/Kroots rush that I will like to share.

Build Kroot barracks, que generator
Spawn Builder assist Kroot barracks, que the same generator
SS, take SP
SS, take SP
Build Vespids, and you should have enough requisition for a Kroot carnivore squad, begin building one while you use the Vespids to destroy one generator, if you enconunter resistance avoid them and go for the base as soon as Gen is destroy comence retreat at the same time oreder your Kroots forward to meet your Vespids.
Do not reinforce your Kroots yet, wait till you have enough requisition to recruit and additional squad.

Now the important part, the Vespids comes with the close combat as default attack, switch the instances to force them to fire instead, the rifles of the Vespids do a great among of moral damage, use your Kroots to entice the enemy and your Vespids to demoralize them. As soon as your second groups of Kroots is spawn commence reinforce on the first squad, push forward to the enemy base.

I found this stratyegy to be very effective against all races, no matter if you rncounter a commander unit, since the Vespids demoralize the units very fast and the Kroots make little work of them, and you will lose almost no Kroots becouse of the low moral of the enemy units.

After tht use your Vespids(Shred ability)/Kroots to destroy and uncap the enemy SP, and maybe destroy their barracks.

Try it, and tell me what you think.

Sorry for my bad english.

[Kronickle]

I've been going for a 2 Stealth, 2 Builder BO boost your econ much quicker and lets you have both barracks way early in T1. There isn't much that can stand up to a Kroot/FW rush.

[ir0nside]

@Footknight: Yeah! You, like many others are now aware of how useful Stealthsuits are in later tiers. I would rate them equal to Tankbustaz in terms of usefulness - both can infiltrate; Tankbustaz have longer range, but Stealthsuits have jump-jets. Both are extremely powerful AV units, and I always make sure to upgrade them with a leader and fusion blaster right away at tier 2, and slowly upgrade them from there with more members/blasters.

@Jarso: Basically, a Vespid rush with Kroot instead of Firewarriors. It's certainly viable, and perhaps even moreso than a standard Vespid-FW build, because you're going to be delayed in getting your Commander/FW's out, and thus you'll encounter more troop opposition initially. Kroot are probably better equipped to handle that, delaying their forces while you get your FWs out, rather than getting your FWs out first and having them overwhelmed completely.

I'll add it.

@Kronickle: Yeah, defenitely the build I use. At first I was going with three Stealthsuits, but quickly realized that their jump-mobility means you only need two of them. Works just great!

[Lucent]

I'd like to see some discussion on how to handle the early rush, especially by Eldar. I'm a bit of a newb, but being rushed down by guardian squads screws me over - they negate early firewarriors by engaging in melee, the second squad nukes my early carnovores while the first squad melees them, and the warlock sees through stealth which negates stealthsuits entirely.
To counter the early eldar rush (if your playing against the cpu then expect it) I usually go for Commander with upgraded flamer and jetpack and a squad of Kroot and Firewarriors in que if not already built. Jump your commander near the guardians (not to close or he will end up in melee) and flame them out of your base. He breaks thier morale rather fast and the firewarriors/kroot back him up nicely early on. Also make sure to Cannibalize with your kroot early on here so rush #2 will be easier.

[Kronickle]

Those Kroot are really the backbone of the Tau army.

No Eldar in their right mind would engage Kroot in CC w/ GU's. So against Eldar get them out early.

What I fear more than GU, since you can dance them forever and they can barely scratch you when on the move -- is a Banshee rush. So against Eldar I completely skip the Commander. He's not worth it unless your micro is golden because anything can melee him (and you don't want to be outsquadded so early on); and why dance when you can go Kroot/shoot combo? I'd rather go FW + Kroot to start w/ then add another Kroot asap in case he goes heavy Shees. If you cannabalize and add Kroot leader they can even stand up to COW Shees by the time T2 rolls around. Eldar T1 has nothing on Tau, after you win the 1st battle it can be gg if you know where his base is.

[Sandanjuu]

I refuse to use kroot against eldar. I find snares + firewarriors just plain work better 9 out of 10 times. It works against GU and Banshee's, and more often then not Eldar go banshee's against tau. Plus, dividing your resources between two barracks is just plain a bad idea when you know a rush is incoming. Stage a defense, you can easily get your hero out in time to throw down traps and create a 'fall back' zone for your firewarriors to drop banshees, fast, clean, and methodically.

[Kronickle]

That will work too, but those 30p snare traps won't hold them long - as in T2 COW Shees. If you're not using the Kroot then you're doing it the hard way. They get stronger everytime you use them, so it really isn't to smart waiting till T2, unless you're not using them at all, then more power to you. Why waste power on snares, req is easier to come by and they only cost 165 as apposed to the expensive Commander who needs flamer upgrade + snares = drain on your power econ and 1 less squad. I like to get the Path building asap, so I don't use to much power early on.

Have you ever seen how easy it is to blow up a snare, instead of walking straight into it?

[Sandanjuu]

Sure have. And I've heard the same arguement from the last 3 eldar right before I killed them. The fact is, even with the hit to your econ, your hitting your opponents econ worse because you can push to their side of the map after you wipe out their rush. It lets you setup a front line of sorts.

The snare lasts long enough for 3 firewarrior squads to drop 3 squads of banshees in one snare. Seems good to me. The power arguement doesn't work for me, because ultimately your either wasting 30 power or 70 req per dead guy. Kroot don't cost that much, obviously, but frankly, I just don't see the advantage. You can lose kroot easier then you can lose firewarriors behind snares. Kroot aren't gods in CC, they can be beaten pretty easily. Your opponents will almost always build their hero- a farseer + banshees WILL kill Kroot.

I don't know, I just can't justify the cost of two barracks early game. Even with the energy spent, I save far more req, and I cost my opponent a great deal of req because EVERY squad he runs into me dies.

Edit: And by the way, I lay traps, for the most part, prior to anyone ever showing up. Once they stealth very few people have something to reveal them, for example, no scout squads or rangers. Also, if they waste their time attacking the trap, its more tiem that my firewarriors are unloading on the individual troops. It's great.

[ir0nside]

Never bring up how you killed "such and such" opponents without a replay as proof - it'll never support an argument, and turns the whole thing into an, "Oh yeah? Well I killed FIFTY Eldar last night! Nyah!" style pissing contest.

As for your "I lay mines before any fighting is taking place" argument, you say that enemies won't have Rangers, for example? Firstly, Rangers aren't detectors, their Guardian squads are, which makes that a totally mistaken argument.

Anyhow, some of the nastiest Eldar strategies against the Tau involve quick Rangers. They are undetectable by the Tau until tier 2, unless you want to spend 300 almost the same resouces for a Firewarrior squad and a Kroot squad combined for Vespids, which are fairly terrible in combat and are very fragile if you are't rushing with them immediately.

The best solution to early Eldars is the Commander's flamer, regardless of whether or not you go Kroot fast or not. I personally prefer to go with Firewarriors early before I get Kroot, unless I know I'm facing an opponent who likes to Raptor/ASM rush, then Kroot are very valuable early on. Regardless, Guardians break immediately, and your FW's can focus-fire the Farseer to death while they're broken. Banshees take much longer to break, but can be danced into Snares.

So on and so forth. Good discussion though, this stuff will all eventually make it into the guide as I flesh out the "Tau Racial Strategies" section. Keep it coming!

[TheDeadlyShoe]

You know, i find the vespid arnt too bad on ranged mode. Keep them back with the FWs and they shoot+Sonic Pulse any units that get close.

[SPADEZ]

Hey hey, Iron.. I'm Spadez from the Mont'ka/Kauyon thread..

First off, I must say that the TAU are my favourite playstyle. AND their Battlestuits remind me of Armored Core (a favorite game of mine..). I am glad that the tau have this dancing counterattack force.. because to me, I HATE attacking first.. and leave my base undefended..

Anywho..

What I have thought of is that you should NOT rush to tier 3 right away. WAIT until you find out what races you are up against. If you already know at the beginning of the level, by all means go for it!

Just a side note you should add to your Crisis Suits (my favourite units by the way) that they are EXTREMELY deadly by upgrading to the FLAMER instead of the Missles. What I have found out, for a good balanced 3 suits is to have 1 unupgraded, 1 missle, and 1 flamer. The unupgraded gun is good against Heavy Infantry..

But I personally have 2 flamers and 1 missle. Usually I have my crisis suits accomponied by Stealth sutis (about 2 squads) and SOMETIMES a vespid (only if I thinkt here is stealthed units in the base).

Anywho, I have had good success with not building a Kroot Barracks until AFTER I built the Enlightment building. (Mainly its because I love to play defense first and have about 2 firewarrior squads, my commander, 1 broadside squad (which I root and unroot) and 1 pathfinder.. they just work really well..)

ALSO, I am not sure if you said it or not.. but EVERY Tau army should have at LEAST 1 pathfinder squad.. They are AWESOME... And their snare also applies to Walker vehicles.. Eat that Melee Dreads, Defilers, and Kans! ahahaha


By the way, could you visit my thread and tell me your thoughts? I have put some strategies against the different races and which building to use. (Mont'ka or Kauyon).

[Kronickle]

I heard Vespids break morale quick on ranged, but their cost is too high for me to risk in T1. Yeah Kroot aren't the best at CC, but does that really matter when your Fire Warriors are ripping the Banshees to shreds as they try to fight. You probably won't even lose 1 Kroot; and after the battle CANNABALIZE and make them stronger. Kroot are best added to the mix early if you want them strong by T2.

Tau mirror is the only time I won't make Kroot because if he goes FW's only then your Kroot won't even make it into CC. I don't think any other T1 troops can drop a squad so quickly though, so I make them against everyone else.

I like the snare traps, but would rather rely on a Kroot squad than my opponents stupidity to run right into my traps. I don't see them working well vs. a good player.

[SPADEZ]

Without that Kroot jump, I find them useless :P

But I must say that Kroot jumop is DEVESTATING if you are a good dancer.. I killed many a chaos lords with 1 squad.. needless to say that I had to reinforce a bit.. but Kroot hounds are pretty awesome with the jump..

As for the traps, I usually place traps underneath my firewarriors to prepare for other jetpack units.. so they land on the snare and I move my warriors away...

[Kronickle]

Under the FW's, nice...

Is there a limit to how many traps you can set?

I mean in QS, w/ 5000 power, can't you literally just lay them across the whole map?

[SPADEZ]

Do you know what I mean? Like.. I throw down a snare where I want my warriors then I have them stand on top of 'em.. I usually have 1-2 kroot squads behind my army to pick up and jetpacks as well...

[Sandanjuu]

Never bring up how you killed "such and such" opponents without a replay as proof -

I actually have about 3 replays of dancing eldar into mines. It's not hard. They weren't saved for that purpose, but I'd appreciate it if you didn't insinuate like I didn't. I like your tactics Iron, but you tend to be a little rude about things.

At any rate, I'm not aware of a cap on the mines. I can't imagine there isn't one, but, I've yet to hit it. On a map like saints square I usually have at least 6 planted at all times, then lay more during fights (as mentioned before) primarily under my firewarriors to ketch chasers.

I wasn't aware rangers weren't scouts, seeing as how I've had eldar reveal my stealth squads with (what appeared) to be rangers. One of the replays shows he never built a single guardian, went straight to banshees. So I apologize for that.

[ir0nside]

Well, I wasn't being insulting, you cut out the rest of my comment. That's what generally happens. The better option is to just post replays and link them, saying "Oh yeah? Look at this." At that point, if you're right.. you're right, and the argument is won. Otherwise, the other person can just say the same thing, but rather in opposition.

"Oh yeah? Well I've tried your method too, and mine works better." So forth, so on.

Yeah, Guardians and Heretics make life hard for Tau in tier 1, due to their initial capping squads not only being able to detect our cappers, but run them off without breaking a sweat. You have to use guerilla capping tactics to compete early on to keep points.

[Kronickle]

Having the only cappers w/ jet packs helps capping speed and contributes to a quick econ (which allows 2 barracks early). Just like necrons having the only cappers that don't shoot contributing to their slowness.

Are there any other detectors for Tau besides Pathfinders and Vespids?

[cutpurse]

I don't think it's very coincidental that my Tau game was much improved after reading all of this thread. Thanks for compiling it and putting it together in such a good format.

[lessthanjeff]

I wouldn't mind seeing some replays of these strats.

[Kronickle]

I guess it just depends how aggressive you are. If you can risk leaving your base alone for a full kroot/FW rush, it can be very effective before the enemy even expects a conflict. I'll post a replay of this next time, but this is what i've discovered.

FW + Kroot > FC + ASM + TACS (T1).

Maybe his micro just sucked but i engaged the ASM w/ Kroot while FW's decimated them in seconds. His tacs were behind trying to help; so i sent the Kroot into them next (totally ignoring the FC the whole time cuz my FW's were far back). He tried to use FC with Tacs CC'ing kroot, didn't work. By this time I'm down a couple Kroot, but he just lost ASM + Tacs, so I F5 my remaining Kroot to surround his FC, all the while my FW's never moved 1 step. So they just focused on FC, and it was gg. He quit once I destroyed everything but the HQ.

[Patton182]

Three strats that can ruin your day as Tau:

Early Rangers: If you happened to go FC w/ FW and some infiltrated Rangers show up, it's over. If you went Vespids then they lose.

IG Turret Rush: IG runs into your base with enough guard to keep you busy and quickly builds 2 turrets. GG. You may be able to stop this if you a) see it coming and b) snare it successfully. If you are in any small way surprised it's over.

SM Landspeeder Rush: This used to take a while, now it's ridiculously easy to spam Landspeeders on a large map quickly. Skull probes along with the LS will easily reveal your ST and they die in seconds. The Missle vehicle would probably help, but if you were preparing for ASMs then you probably have a bunch of soon to be dead infantry. Normally when playing against SM I just vespid rush and kill their gens, sending some Kroots to kill anything else. Not sure how it would work on a really big map though.

Anybody got any other counters?

[ir0nside]

There is no counter to early Rangers, and this is a real problem. It forces you to go Vespids against Eldar, which is not a favorable, considering that you're stuck on the defensive with them and can't put them to any good use attacking buildings.

The Turret rush doesn't work, because the TC can Target Aquired a builder and kill him in about a second. Guards can't "keep you busy", honestly. Just target the builders and then the Guardsmen. Use TC flamer to break them one at a time as your Firewarriors destroy them.

Commander missiles are long range and coupled with FW firepower, will make short work of speeders. You're right, though - if you went Kroot to stop ASM, and instead met with landspeeders, you might have a problem.

[FOLrOBOT]

Like lessthanjeff has just mentioned, it'd do a world of good for players to see some replays.

So, for those of you who're becoming reasonably proficient with Tau, how about saving some? :]

[ir0nside]

I've got some ready for the next update. Stay tuned. ;)

[Patton182]

Iron, ya, I agree about the Guard. I may have been asleep, but I think I had 2 fw and a FC and he had a command squad, 2 guard and 2 builders. He went CC with everything. There were 2 builders.

[ir0nside]

By the way, you're saying "FC" which means Force Commander. You mean "TC" which is Tau Commander - just giving you a heads up, as you might confuse some people out there!

As soon as their guardsmen try to CC, just dance away while you kill their builders with your Commander. Soon as that is done, throw snare down and run his groups through it and begin the slaughter. *grins*

[Nikitas]

Here is a quick question for the experts, what is a good combination of Sergeants/Shield Drones for FW squads? I figure one and one is a good balance of firepower and defense. Is there any apparent advantage in having two SD other than having the ability available if one goes down?

[ir0nside]

1/1.

I would suggest 2 shield drones, if it provided two shield abilities in a row, but it doesn't contribute anything but a spare shield drone in case your first one dies. Thusly, the extra DPS from another Fire Warrior leader is more beneficial.

[Raiden]

Thanks for this guide. It helps me see the Tau's strengths and weaknesses better, and understand the strategy behind each unit. As for the Mont'ka vs Kauyon path debate:

Mont'ka Path:
XV8 Crisis Suits
Hammerhead Gunships

Kauyon Path:
Kroot Hounds
Krootox
Improved Metallurgy
Advanced Optics

I think if Impr. Metallurgy or Advanced Optics were given to Mont'ka, both paths will become more equal. But as of now the advantage is to the Kauyon Path. I think both XV8 Crisis and Hammerhead should be made better, to offset the Kauyon Path and not make one Path so obviously better than the other. Hopefully it will be addressed in future patches.

[Patton182]

On the Mont'ka vs Kauyon debate, one thing that I think was touched on, but maybe not fully is the power of the Crisis Suit flamer. I've had several games on small maps where I've gone Mont'ka and gotten two suits out just in time for a Necron attack with like 5 squads of flayed ones and several normal necron warriors etc. The suits turned a complete route into a win for me. I was stunned. After he teleported out of my base, I added another suit, tied him up in the middle with the rest of my army, and jumped into his base. The three suits destroyed his base in something like 1min 30sec.

[Sandanjuu]

Keep in mind, of course, having a shield drone is only necessary in firewarrior squads if your opponent is actually attempting to out shooty you. As far as I can tell the shield benefit only applies to ranged damage. If your opponent is flooding you with CC, grab the extra lieut. 2x gives a lot of extra fire power. (Still only one grenade use though, feh)

[Mazuo]

Well, I've only played a few days now, but I haven't been able to tell what photon grenades do, if anything. I don't see any disruption or damage being dealt.

Still I find myself only upgrading with sergeants to increase damage output as I don't often find myself in situations where more firepower isn't going to make shorter work of their ranged units. Plus, I've had several experiences now where shield drones die almost instantly after I've built them from a stray shot.

Admittedly, I only really play with friends against insane CPUs the majority of the time, so I can see that against other humans the shield drones might serve a better purpose.

A problem I've been experiencing is developing good Tau anti-vehicle during early to mid-game. Late-game Krootox and Fire Warriors dominate, but I haven't been able to find a very good strategy for the long time before that. Broadsides and stealthsuits both seem like viable options, but I have trouble keeping either unit alive. Any suggestions?

[ir0nside]

Stealthsuits are viable, but only if you're good with them. Once upgraded with a leader (should be your first upgrade) you get an EMP grenade which disables vehicles for a good length of time. With a contingent of Fusion Blasters, you can make short work of vehicles.

Just make sure you toss your EMP first, becuase as you said.. they might have to jump out quickly. In that case, you'll at least have disabled the enemy vehicle.

[Mazuo]

Ah yes, the EMP grenade. I had forgotten about it mostly, so I'll have to play around with it then. Since I should have anti-infantry handled rather well, disabling the vehicles and then microing the stealth teams shouldn't be agonizingly difficult.

Thanks for the tip.

To those using Vespids effectively, I commend you. Their description of being heavy infantry seems to be a joke to me thus far. Not sure what was being thought of designing the unit to be CC and then having them do a very poor job at surviving the most minimal of melee combat. Pathfinders have been the only way for me to go taking into account the massive cost of Vespids and their ineffectiveness.

[PlagueDog]

Vespids aren't really meant to kill anything other then buildings and disrupt CC troops/stun crew drivers.

Get good with the jump jets and they come in quite handy. They are expensive early on but if they were not then people would be complaining about them more then they do even now.

[ir0nside]

Something certainly needs to be changed with regards to Vespids and tier 1 tau detection. I'm going to put up some proposals regarding this soon, if I have time. It's really terrible how it is, as any Eldar ranger rush will show you.

[PlagueDog]

Yeah i totally agree, if they get rangers then you are forced to get the stingwings which completely puts you on the defensive.

[Kronickle]

Yeah, Rangers can be a pain, better almost to just run around till T2 Pathfinders come out. Which doesn't take to long if you eco boom correctly.

Think about it this way, if you didn't need Vespids, you'd have enough req to make another FW squad and build either a Gen or LP, which would give you better firepower early on and better econ (cheapest/quickest cappers) which would make Tau totally PWN Tier 1. So they intended for you to get a weak expensive unit early on to handicap Tau from a booming econ/army.

This is a risky techy BO, but if you can keep your builder units alive you'll have massive firepower very quick. 2 builders to Barracks, then 2 gens, and 1 FW squad to harrass and lead enemy away (skip TC and Vespids), you can make the Path building ASAP and get your Pathfinders and Broadsides very quick. I'd rather take the risk and end up in T2 w/ a good econ, as opposed to wasting req on Vespids and cripple your econ.

[Sandanjuu]

Something certainly needs to be changed with regards to Vespids and tier 1 tau detection. I'm going to put up some proposals regarding this soon, if I have time. It's really terrible how it is, as any Eldar ranger rush will show you.

Yeah, a good ranger rush is very very hard to deal with. Have you gotten snares to work on infiltrated units?

My two bits is maybe they should add an upgrade to the commander similar to the campaign sensor upgrade. Advanced sensors or whatever. They already have the model, obviously, so I can't imagine it would be difficult.

[HERO]

My two bits is maybe they should add an upgrade to the commander similar to the campaign sensor upgrade. Advanced sensors or whatever. They already have the model, obviously, so I can't imagine it would be difficult.

This I agree with 100%

There should definetly be another form of stealth detection other than Vespids and Pathfinders (tier2).

[ir0nside]

That's a good idea. It's not innate, and must be upgraded to, costing power, but giving you stealth detection in a unit you'll use for more than just detection and building harassment.

[Eji1700]

If they made an upgrade like that I think it'd have to be tier 3. Having a jumping, stealth detecting, ranged commander is really going to rape all stealth infantry. The idea normally is the commander is strong but without support infiltrated units can get past him and closer to the army. Once you get an upgrade like that i means, against ork for example, that you can park your commander near your tanks and the tankbusters are never going to get close enough to fire. You won't even need pathfinders or vespids. Not to mention that with how hard it is already to kill the tau commander since he's got decent health and a jump ability you could easily shutdown stealth units for the rest of the game.

[Sandanjuu]

If they made an upgrade like that I think it'd have to be tier 3. Having a jumping, stealth detecting, ranged commander is really going to rape all stealth infantry. The idea normally is the commander is strong but without support infiltrated units can get past him and closer to the army. Once you get an upgrade like that i means, against ork for example, that you can park your commander near your tanks and the tankbusters are never going to get close enough to fire. You won't even need pathfinders or vespids. Not to mention that with how hard it is already to kill the tau commander since he's got decent health and a jump ability you could easily shutdown stealth units for the rest of the game.

This arguement is confusing. If I have tanks I don't need my commander to park back there, I have pathfinders?

Early game the TC's main gun isn't exactly ' deadly' either. Super range, but ....

This 'upgrade' would really only effect the early game. And you can't have your commander everywhere. It would essentially allow tau to defend a specific spot or path.

[Minrad]

On the Mont'ka vs Kauyon debate, one thing that I think was touched on, but maybe not fully is the power of the Crisis Suit flamer. I've had several games on small maps where I've gone Mont'ka and gotten two suits out just in time for a Necron attack with like 5 squads of flayed ones and several normal necron warriors etc. The suits turned a complete route into a win for me. I was stunned. After he teleported out of my base, I added another suit, tied him up in the middle with the rest of my army, and jumped into his base. The three suits destroyed his base in something like 1min 30sec.

I believe someone already pointed out that it has a reload time of 0.00000 seconds, so atm the Tau's Crisis Suit flamer is broken. Mont'Ka will be even worse off once (maybe if?) that gets fixed.

As for the detection problem, giving Tau LPs detection would work nicely imo. Every other race can detect with turrets; since we miss out on those, atleast give us detection on listening posts. =/

[ir0nside]

Eh, he does have a slight point in that it might really push the Commander over the top in terms of effectiveness by adding stealth detection. However, he misses the point entirely in that the problem is effective Tier 1 detection, which currently is borked in the form of Vespids.

[HERO]

Borked is definetly a term I would use too.

Vespids for the sole purpose of stealth detection is a little over the top.

[SPADEZ]

Y'know.. I wish that Tau workers had stealth detection.. they ARE robots with.. 'sensors' at least they should :P That would solve tier 0/1 stealth detection. PLUS Vespids are too damn expensive just for Stealth detection.. AND they die to easily.. in melee or ranged mode.. bah.. lol

[Quex13]

I've actually had some good thoughts about Vespid, but they still are too expensive early game. It is mainly that they are auto reinforced and have almost 0 build time. If they took it down so that you only had 2 or 3 Vespid it would take down the cost a bit...but it would still cost about as much as a Kroot squad, or maybe a little more. They could fix this by giving us two buttons, one that does what it does now, and the other giving us a Vespid squad that takes longer to build and is not reinforced, but costs quite a bit less.

[SPADEZ]

I agree about that. Vespids ARE good units.. but are horrible for their cost in tier 1.. in the sense that it eats your economy.. I am pretty sure that each individual vespid costs 60 req. Since 300/5 = 60 So if it started with 2 or 3 vespids it would cost 120 or 180 Req for a vespid squad.. which would be more resonable to purchase than the 300 cost..

[Wadmaasi]

Great thread, everyone; as a Tau-loving lurker, I'm enjoying the discussion immensely.

ir0nside, while it might be a bit of spam to the thread, please consider making a new reply every time you update the initial guide-post with highlights of what's included in the update. It's hard to A) keep up with edits and new discussion and B) quickly pick out new/updated material in a wall of text as long and detailed as the guide. I hate the thought of someting particularly juicey slipping past me 'cause my eyes skipped over something I assumed I'd already read.

[Jarso]

If the Vespids wasn't like they are now no one would use them, the thing about Vespids is the almost 0 build time, don't tell me that an Eldar player can have Rangers plus infiltration before you get Vespids an Harass enemy base, baked up with Kroots, if the Vespids were cheaper they will have to stir up the build time, but then their purpose as a solid rush squad that can do heavy damage to building and can potentially cripple the economy of youre enemy would render them useless since their not live long in a battle.

To compensate this they will probably need to make them more resiliant to damage and maybe allow you to have two squads of them, because I don't see the purpose of a squad of Vespids in mid-game right know, their only good at the start of the game, or at least that's my opinion.

[Kronickle]

I'm curious about this strat in a team game:

Fill up your infantry cap on 3 Crisis Suits and the rest pure Stealthsuits with all the upgrades + commander. Wait till the enemy is approaching, then jump the whole 20 cap army into the enemy base and focus everything on the HQ. Protect your base w/ a lot of snares and buried drones. If he continues into your base you'll probably destroy his first. Or if he pulls back you might destroy it anyway. Has anyone tried this?

However, if there's turrets everywhere you just wasted a whole 20 cap.

[Njorhg]

Wouldn't dare, far too risky.
What could I do to defend myself with Stealth Suits only?

[Eji1700]

Actually if you're worried about turrets just take the vespids too. Use shred to take out the turrets and then it might work. Still realllllly risky though. I guess you could use up 4 of your cap to leave 2 squads of entrenched broadsides at the base and then either submerged drones or 2 hammerheads and 2 drone carries. It all really depends on req though.

[Kronickle]

Don't forget about 20 snare traps around your base to hold them still for the entrenched broads. With their firepower you should pwn infantry stuck in the traps. The only thing I worry about is vehicles, which would probably diverted back to defend their melting HQ.

[ir0nside]

Going to be updating the Tactica very shortly here. Stay tuned!

New updates include..

- Tau racial strategies which outline some common encounters I've witnessed in the days since Dark Crusade fell into my grubby blue paws. Strategies included:

Necrons
Vespid/Kroot Rush replay
Anti-Warrior Rush
Anti-Necron Tips
Eldar
Anti-Guardian Spam
Anti-Ranger Rush
Anti-Banshee replay
Imperial Guard
Pro Replay
Chaos
Kroot Rush replays

- Updated Mont'ka vs. Kauyon section
- Updates on various units such as Vespid, Stealthsuits, Broadsides/Devilfish, and others
- Refined build orders

Note: I have been playing under the SabbathViper account name recently, while doing some of these tests.

[FOLrOBOT]

Your replay links lead to 'delete replay' confirmation pages.

[ir0nside]

Fixed!

[Aver]

hey ironside your guide has been amazing great job but this maybe a little noobish & maybe the wrong place to post it but i figured since i'm a tau fan boy & you helped me with the devilfish carrier i would ask here. any way when people say qeue up a building how do they do that do they just say building something then move the builder to soemthign else or is there a way to queue it up?

OMG your name is sabbath viper ironside I played with you!!! i was draxious!!

[ir0nside]

Whie you're in the build menu for a builder, hold shift down while you "place" more buildings after the first. You'll pay for the building, and it'll have it's foundation placed where you want it, and when your builders are done with what they're working on, they'll go complete each successive building you set for them in their "que".

And yes, I remember you Draxious. =) For a guy who didn't know how to que buildings, you sure played very well. Our games would have beeng good examples of combining Tau arms against enemies in team games.

[Aver]

lol thanks! we rocked the hell out of them i havnt been on lately cause i been hving to spend almost my hole time before work in the hospital to get some blood work done but i will be on tomorrow moring & tomorrowing evening after work @1am

it was funney to when you said you were gonna go & make your guide i was gonna tell you to look at your own guide for any example

also wht do you expect of me for not queuing up buildings i didnt even know how to whisper you lol!

Also i'm sorry to double post but i have a question i know devilfish are a amazing transport but i'm having problems because when u try to sneak them into someones base the lp's/ turrets can see them & then it's bad from there. & if i send it say some kroot to throw the guy off the lp's see them & if he has a turrent devilfish dont stand much of a chance vs it

[Jarso]

Hey great job ir0nside, I would appreciate a little help now, recently I was playing a team game where we were two Tau player incuding me vs two SM players, we decided to start with the standard build, getting Commander and FW out do to the lack of firepower the Tacs has in comparision to FW.

We kept the SS to have a tier two anti vehicle infantry, but since the game was going pretty well for us we delay the Mont'ka path and stay in tier 2 a bit longer than expected and for a surprise came a Hellfire Dread backed up with Probes so SS useless,
the FW and Commander was disrupted badly, then another one came in, I try to used Broadsides and after a bunch of heavy casaulties we managed to take them down but by that point the game was utterly lost, so my question is any suggestion to effectively deal with a Hellfire Dread in tier 2 without to many casualties?

[ir0nside]

You say that the probes rendered your Stealthsuits useless, but I am sure you can toss an EMP grenade on the Dreadnaught before they are obliterated. Once that is done, your Commander + FWs can make short work of them. I'll try it out and do some testing.. thanks for bringing that up - a good point.

[Aver]

I can help ya out with this Jarso get your invis squads to have there commander use there emp gernade to stop them from firing & get a pathfinder squad & mark it. Your commander & firewarriors will take it down so fast it will look like it was a scout

[Jarso]

Yeah, I did try to trhow the emp, but the Dreads were not alone, the Hellfire is a lot cheaper than the standard Dread, he has Tacs support behind the Hellfire, the SS never touch ground (and we have two squads each). I think the problem was taht me and my friend were to sure of the fact that we can outshoot Tacs, ASM, and standard Dreads, we did not expect a HD, I rarely see those used lately.

Maybe Skyrays with rocket barrage would be a better option than Broadside, since the HD must stay away to fire his weapons, no worrys, I think I would see this rather often now against SM players. We have to learn and counter.

[Aver]

I personally find the rocket barrage isnt as affective against dreads due to the fact of there mobility & most like they would be move before it would hit cause of the delay. I still find that the pathfinder/stealth suits is the best combo to take them down

[Nikitas]

Looks like the Greater Knorloc is under the Kauyon path again.

[SPADEZ]

Haha, thanks much ir0n. I'll keep ye updated if I discover anything about the Mont'ka.

[ir0nside]

If any of you want to contribute, there is one area which I'm having problems with. I tend to roll over Eldar, SM, Chaos, and IG.. but I tend to have real problems facing Necrons. From what I can tell, the build order is a fairly standard one. First scarab builds 2 generators then a Summoning Core.. que'ed scarab caps and builds obelisks; in the meantime, a Lord and Warrior squad are popping out.

I encounter the Lord and his Warriors with my Commander and Firewarriors at almost the same time. Now, this fight is already at a disadvantage, because the Necron Lord chases my Firewarriors which I dance away, and his Necrons continue firing at my Commander. Normally this would not be a problem, as I'd break the squad with my TC's flamer.. but the Necrons have amazing morale recovery - as soon as I switch to the next incoming Warrior squad to break it and keep it nullified, the prior one rallies and continues harming my Commander.

During the time that I am dancing my FW's away from the Lord, he slowly kills them with his highly accurate on the move fire.

Of course, snares can sway this in my favor, and usually do.. but Necron players are getting better and are now teleporting over my snares to keep pursuing my FWs. So I end up snaring a Warrior squad which wasn't really going anywhere to begin with. Eventually they manage to bring my Commander's health to a point where I have to start playing with him defensively. Without him to break the Warrior squads, they simply begin following my FWs, with their perfectly accurate on the move fire, quickly raping what is left of them.

That is when things stalemate, and then turn in the Necrons favor.

I'll get some example replays up soon.

[GRIM Avocado]

Vespid rush rapes necron, in my experience (and many others i've heard). I usually do:

builder, stealth suit, stealth suit, vespid, jumps
builders double tau barracks, then gen, then 2 LPs
stealth suits cap
after first 2 LPs are up, get TC + flamer
more LPs -> fire warrior spam

Vespids jump in before NL or NW are out, and if there's a turret, shred it and its done. Take out gens, or scarabs - takes longer to kill the scarabs though, try and find the ones with only a single one in the squad. Works for me.

[stopgap]

ironsides, ive found that with this situation Preparation is KEY. If im fighting necrons and not trying something stupid while tired, (most of my losses are me trying stupid ideas) I try to Always get the Commander out first, have my first or second stealth suit cap middle to give warning, and try to have 2 generators. now this leaves me with a kinda shaky early game, but it allows you to get all the tau upgrades commander upgrades Really early, and more importantly allows you to jet to middle and set up snare traps BEFORE, the enemy ever arrives, ive found this allows you to regularly completely suprise the necron player, and do some serious damage, however its a Very power hungry build so keep capping lps, and then building LP's or youll get way behind in tech, however this build, if you can stop the initial warriors can drastically slow nex. Youve got to be sneaky with the traps though, and try to set up a line of retreat all the way to a LP2 (which is kinda nice to have for a fallback).

[ir0nside]

Grim, the problem is that their Generators are extremely cheap, and destroying them with Vespids is pointless from an economic standpoint - their builders are free and they'll just rebuild the generator for very little expense. Also, as soon as they get a lord out, you can't harass his buildings anymore, because he can just teleport straight there and knock them to high hell - and of course, his Lord comes out early.

I think I've isolated the real problem.. and that is the Necron's seeming 100% accuracy while moving. The Necron can just mark his Warriors to melee your FWs, firing the entire time - and when they close in, you are forced to dance your FWs back - but the entire time they chase after you, they're still firing. And firing. And firing. Each Firewarrior you lose is a painful 70 req, and with this approach, there really isn't anything you can do about losing Firewarriors. You can snare them and drop their numbers, but you're not costing them very much, and another squad is already on the way for no cost.

In the meantime, of course, their Lord is teleporting around, avoiding your 35 power cost snares, and herding your Firewarriors into the endless fire-while-moving damage of the Warriors.

I've tried keeping the Warriors broken, but they rally at very low morale, so keeping more than one squad broken is very difficult.

[PlagueDog]

What about using vespids to kill the building the necrons need to port back with?

Never tried it yet but that may help some. There HAS to be some use of those damn expensive vespids other then stealth detection.

[ir0nside]

Lord doesn't need that building to teleport... and yes, the Summoning Core is the number one building target for your Vespids, the problem is that a lot of Necron players don't get it that early, and by the time they do, they have a turret and a Lord to fend you off.

Talked with Compeador a bit, who is more or less the number one Tau player right now, and he agrees. Evenly matched, Necrons can basically wear you down through attrition when facing FWs against NWs.

I'm currently testing some new builds to see how they fare.

[HERO]

You know what I find really lame lately? Space marines that turtle up with LP2s and tech straight up to Dreadnaughts. With good micro and harrassment with 2 ASM squads, it's really difficult to assualt his early base while he techs, and the dreadnaughts come out and cause some serious trouble for me. Thoughts?

If you try and attack, you'll get beaten back. If you try and defend and wait for VPs, he'll have teched higher than you.

[Solaufein]

Against necron I first tried to outshoot and dance them, with no succes. I have had good succes with getting 2 kroot squads first to tie up is warriors in melee and then get FW squads to kill em. After that I either lost my squads and have the warriors in my base killing me, or I have map control and stand outside his base waiting to get to tier 2 for some durable anti turret firepower.

[Jarso]

I have a replay, where I do Vespids/Kroot rush to them, by the time I get to his base he has two groups of NW, and the Lord was on the way(the map where large for a 1 vs 1). Anyway my Vespid encounter NW and the first squad of Kroot was on the way, I use the vespids speed to outrun the NW and attack one of his generator, he tried to pursue but vespids are fast. Then I starting pounding his obelisk and his scarabs in CC. The NL came out Kroots were not there yet.

I retreat to meet my Kroots, change the vespids to range, and attack the NL with both of them. NW to slow so the NL was alone, I start reinforce the Kroot and another squad was on the way. he realiza that the NL wasn't doing very well by himself against Kroot becouse their reinforce fast, and the Vespids dmoraliza him, so he teleport back to his NW.

Then with my two squads of Kroots an my Vespids I push forward, meanwhile I almost finish building barracks and wait for the commander...

Since his NL was low on health he posicion his NW in front, but I killed the two groups with my Kroots, meanwhile, Vespids pounding obelisk in close and NW range in Range for morale damage. He already have at this point the option of make Flayed Ones, and he did, he combine his FO with the NL and spawn another squad of NW. I use the Vespids to demoraliza the FO and use one squad of troops to entace the NL an the other in the FO. Vespids switching fire between the two groups to keep morale low. SonicBlast on NW to slow their arrival them fire again. At this point I have map control with my SS but althought I have the barracks I can't recruit the TC becouse my requisition is low since I need to reinforce heavy my Kroots and Vespids. I killed the FO, NL and NW and go for his Scarabs and Obelisk with my Kroots and attcak the generator with my Vespids. Since I have a relief in the reinforcements I manage to recruit TC, upgrade flamer and bring him to his base, he begins now to spawn Wraith, and for my surprise their very good at killing Kroots and entace Kroots because of his killing animation, but I outnumber them by that time, he spawn NW, and the NL again but to no use I win the match but with heavy micro on my Vespids/Kroots, and of course maybe a bit of lucky.

Post the replay later tonight, hopes that help...

If anyone has a better tactic for this post it.

[Minrad]

Whenever I play against Necrons, I always have to go Kroot. Kroot versus Necrons are pretty evenly matched 1 for 1 in CC, but they build faster and their squads outnumber NW squads, so you can pretty easily beat up on them. Normally I'll only get some light Firewarrior cover, at best. If the Necron player fights back the Kroot masses using Flayed ones, the Firewarriors can take em' out so your Kroot can continue duking it out with NWs. You can't get too greedy with your FWs though, or else he'll just deep strike the Flayed ones in your Firewarrior mass.

NWs can beat out Kroot warriors later once they get their upgrades though. That's what cannibalize and Kroot hounds are for, of course, but early game Kroot can beat out NWs pretty easily.

[umbrafox]

Just a quick thought about the tier 1 stealth detection. I don't know if anyone has mentioned this before but I haven't seen it;

I think an ideal solution would be to let us get our pathfinding friends at tier 1 but they wouldn't get markerlight until it was researched at the path of enlightenment so as not to OP the t1 forces

Thoughts?

[Minrad]

That's rather reasonable, actually... but Pathfinders are still very expensive units at Tech 2, even moreso if they were made Tech 1.

[GRIM Avocado]

Well, I've been having no trouble with any race with tau as of yet. Vespids are pretty ridiculous, they single handedly win every game for me. I'll post some 1v1 reps, and i'll try to get some vs necrons for you.

[ir0nside]

Thanks, Grim. I've been testing various builds against some really good players lately, but the problem seems to be when the Necron sets his NWs to melee. That is where the trouble begins - at ranged, I win easily, of course. But having them slowly march up to melee range forces my FWs to start running, and during the whole time the NWs are picking them off, while moving.

That is the core issue. The FWs can't shoot while running, and cost so much for each one you lose.. that I slowly just get worn down while he continues to build up and reinforce his NWs.

*rubs chin*

[Sandanjuu]

Yeah, I'm with Ir0n on this one. I mentioned a few days ago that my Necron friend and I did some testing, and in a stand up fight the NW will beat the FW, which means the FW have to rely on range and better micro, but it just doesn't happen with how well necron can wage an attrition war.

Because of the setup time, you can't "kite" nw, they can just continue their slow crawl forever.

[SPADEZ]

Meh I wish I could play against others.. I've only been able to play my friends via LAN.. but my friend is a pretty good Necron player.. and what I recomend is just build up a defense.. and then make a side strike force or something.. and have the strike force attack everyone once in awhile.. and after the necron attack your base.. hold 'em off (if you can) then pop a snare on the lord's corpse and then head out with full forces to the necron player's base.. kill his turrets then ALL fire on his monolith.. if he hadn't built another one.. under standard rules you will win the game. (since monolith is the only production building)

As for fighting Necron headon.. spread your fired warriors out and let the necron lord melee one of your FW squads.. it will be your sacrifice haha.. but then just try to keep all of their units occupied with your Kroots. (Try to aim for 3-4 of them) Have 3 of them with Shapers and the 4th one, if they don't look like they are needed.. have them cannabalize if any tau/kroots have fallen.. since unfortunently Necron corpses can't be eaten!! (if only if only).. The Kroot jump really helps against the Tau.. try to send in 1 squad at time to keep them pummeled by Kroot jumping hahaha. The only units I fear are the stupid Flayed Ones.. Just because they take out my Broadsides >.< What I recomend is saving a Vespid or your 4th kroot behind your forces to keep the Flayed Ones occupied (if they come).. so yeah.. that is my though about fighting them head-on. (as for their vehicles.. I'm not too worried about them...) haha gotta love Stealth EMP's

As for fighting Necron Warriors in the beginning. Start off with Kroots first.. rather.. build a Tau barracks and then a kroot right away... if you can.

[ir0nside]

Indeed. The only thing you can do is run completely away, and set up more snares, and wait for them to plow into them. However, the lord will simply teleport to you, tie up one of your FW squads by chasing them, and your Commander + FW can't bring down the rest of them fast enough as they reinforce, and it all happens again.

I've tried Kroot rushing them with the very effective build posted in the Tactica, and it literally stalemates out after a long, long time. It'll take forever, but eventally you'll lose to attrition if they get a turret and/or LP2 up in the base, and while your Kroot which have really terrible building damage struggle to simply break even against the constant free Warrior spam (with Lord there dropping your numbers constantly and disrupting them), you end up spending way more on reinforcements than they do on anything else. They simply send scarabs out, make Obelisks around the map, and build their important buildings elsewhere where your Kroot arent. So essentially, this is just an exercise in futility.

@ Spadez: In a competitive game, Spadez, you won't have both FW and Kroot to utilize against the Necrons at such an early stage. Nor will you have enough resources to have a "seperate side force" to attack their base while their Warriors are attacking yours. Besides, as soon as they get a Summoning Core up, they can teleport back to their base instantly, so "diversionary attacks" are impossible against Necrons.

[Stormbringer]

Besides, as soon as they get a Summoning Core up, they can teleport back to their base instantly, so "diversionary attacks" are impossible against Necrons.

Yeah, for all the Necrons' slowness, they certainly seem to be one of the most mobile races in the game at times: teleport-to-building, NL teleporting, deep-striking, etc. are all bad news for anyone trying to divert/slow their advance. (By contrast, Tau battle suits, even with Jump packs, seem incredibly slow and unwieldy)

I really hate mid-to-late game Necrons, after the NL acquires their 'god' abilities (cloak, solar pulse, phylactery, nightbringer, rez orb, etc.) and the flayed ones 'morale breaking' spam starts. Not only can they be anywhere, at any time, but they've got some nasty defenses/abilities that make Necrons virtually unstoppable. Not to mention wraiths and their innate speed that allows them uncap your points. Oh, and they have this Monolith thing, too. And persistant units. And crazy walk-and-shoot damage. And ... and ... :)

[ir0nside]

The bastards!

In all seriousness though, I'm reserving any complaints about Necrons until I've exhausted all options. I'm trying to get to a point where I can consistently beat Necrons at my skill level, as I have this nagging feeling that the ones I am beating are simply are losing due to a skill gap.

[HERO]

I found that Tau vs Necron games are very dependant on Maps lately. On that rediculous map called Fear, Necrons absolutely man-handle Tau because of the linear map design and that slag deposit sitting right infront of your base. That basically means Necron techs X amount faster and has almost unlimited resources. On average size maps such as Quests Triumph, the Tau and Necron player normally have much better games. Only on small maps, I find a fast rush to Vespids extremely troublesome for Necron players to handle early. Especially when its cooped with a good FW squad sent immediately as support. That, followed by TC, is extremely difficult for Necron players to handle. With that being said, I'd have to say that depending on map size, the game changes dramatically.

The strat that I use vs Necrons is TC + FW control on larger/medium maps and Vespids on medium/smaller maps. I rarely follow up with Kroot untill Tier2 and that's simply because my TC + FW + Snares can handle Necron Tier1 relatively fine. Even Wraiths drop to good Snare positioning and micro. Once Tier2 comes with Tau, Kroot Barracks + Feral Leap is a must.

I've played some solid Necron players and I find the map dependacy a little too linear. On maps like Fear, I know that I'm pretty much screwed and on maps like Blood River, I know it's in my favor. I wish I didn't have to feel that way about certain matchups tt.

[SPADEZ]

Well most Tau strategies work wonders with crazy terrain. If you could possibly get a harbringer out.. you may be able to turn the tides.. just hope they don't target it.. try to keep immortals and NW's occupied with whatever. But I doubt that 1v1 battles will really last beyond tier 2.5....

@ir0n haha, yeah.. You know what I think they should allow or something? Is to be able to have a maximum of TWO squads of Vespids. Instead of costing 300 req for a full squad.. how about 180 for 3/5 squad. or 120 for a 2/5 squad?? AND increase their build time...

If we could have 2 vespid squads early on... (oh and the shred ability would have to be a research upgrade) it may turn the tide in our favor against Melee NW's..

Anyone have thoughts on it?

[GRIM Avocado]

Well... it's really hard for me to get good games going :/ I usually pull noobs in auto atm, or nobody at all... so it could be awhile til i get any reps up :P

[SPADEZ]

Personally I wish they changed their online system instead of having Gamespy.. I for one.. am not fond of Gamespy.. I wish Relic actually had something similar to Battle.net (blizzard online system..)

[TheEmperor]

*edit* oi.

[ir0nside]

I've actually recently tried skipping the initial Generator, so that I can get a very fast second FW squad out. This means that I won't be able to use snares or get a flamer for the commander, but honestly I've found that Snares are -less- necessary against the Necrons due to their slow speed.. and the flamer -less- useful against Warriors as they rally so quickly. I might be wrong about the flamer, I still need to do some testing with it to see if I am simply not breaking their Warriors enough (which would in turn reduce my FW casualties).

So far it hasn't made a real difference. The extra firepower early makes a difference, but it isn't long before they just wear them down as usual.

I think the real key might be killing the Lord, but that is extremely difficult due to his ability to teleport. Bah, my brains are frying.


I'd just like to point out Kroot hounds aren't part of the Kauyon path, you can build them with either Mont'ka or Kauyon.

That is incorrect. Kroot Hounds require the Kauyon Command to be built.

[Kronickle]

Yeah, i went no TC last night and my first squad of FW's couldn't even scratch the NL. 2nd squad came out and he chased them all around, I kited him w/ 2 squads but they couldn't hurt him enough before a reinforced NW squad came to overwhelm me. I think I would've done better with a mixed force. The NW's just ignored my 2 FW squads till they took down my LP, they reinforced quicker than I could drop em.

Besides Necrons, has anyone tried this strat:

Load up an invisible Devilfish with 1 Pathfinder squad to keep them safe.
Will they still work as detectors?

[Aver]

as i posted earlier i'm having trouble keepign my devilfish out of site can anybody give me some tips on how to avoid lps or turrets cause they get murdered before they can unload some times

[Kronickle]

Turrets are detectors so you can't really sneak them in a base. I'm still curious as to whether Pathfinders detection will work when they are inside the Devilfish.

[SPADEZ]

I doesn't.. I've tried it. Too bad it doesn't work.. lousy Pathfinders.. haha

@ ir0n: Since you use Devilfish alot, is there a cap for them? Or can you actually have 20 of them? haha. I must say they waaay too good for only ONE vehicle slot. They have very good firepower and I love 'em just as much as you do.. Of course, not as much as you.. since y'know I love the Mont'ka :P

@Aver It depends on how the base is set up.. if there is one entrance that has a turret try to get to the other side. If there is only one.. you could try to sacrifice a unit.. like use the unit to distract the turrets while you let your devilfish sneak by.. hopefully the enemy player isn't watching :P

[ir0nside]

Depending on the turret placement, I commonly just run the Devilfish straight past the turret, unload, deploy, and let them go to work - just so long as you do so out of the turret's range, there's no real problem.

[taskmaster-]

i do not understand why everybody is so excited to haev the crisis suite vs SM or Chaos... FW with TArgeting Optics can literaly reape off the tactical squad, and even the Possesed...
the real problems are the dreddy and defy... but they can be managed with some good micro of stealth teams.... which is what makes teh game great to me...

[SPADEZ]

Well.. SM slaughter Krootox... and the Knarloc.. they are deamons.. (I'm not sure about hounds.. I think they are just heavy infantry)

As for Chaos.. Mont'ka are pretty efective. Though krootox help against all of their CC. So it is a matter of opinon against chaos.

[ir0nside]

Task, read the Mont'ka vs. Kauyon section. Krootox are the real reason to go Kauyon right now, and they are killed handily by Grey Knights. The FW upgrades are great, but a Whirlwind will totally blow FWs around. Crisis Suits can jump back and fry the Whirlwind very quickly, for example, whereas a Krootox would take a long time to do so, and would be killed by properly utilized GKs before it arrived.

[bavbav]

can anyone tell me if you can cc ranged units with stealth suits and disrupt them from ranged atacking, if they have no detectors that is. ?

[ImmortalChaos]

Stealthed units do not disrupt.

[ir0nside]

Updated the Kroot Rush build, and made a few tweaks here and there, nothing major.

[Jarso]

Newsflash, if you think the GK of the SM killed Krootox fast, wait till you lose one to the Kiss of Death of the Eldar Harlequins, one hit kill the damn krootox, and he has two of them, I wasn't able to see it because the great number of troops in the battle.
So you guys know about it if you don't know it already.

[Vorlock]

Ironside, have you tried using stealth suits or your devilfish to spot for the firewarriors? I would THINK that the firewarriors supperior range would be "enough" to kill the necron warriors. Sure, you will have to dance some, but you should still have windows to fry the necrons.

I am thinking the following: The necron warriors are basically continually marching to your base, accomanied by his lord. You have a stealth suit ahead of your deployed firewarriors, awaiting the enemy. The warriors march into range and start taking fire (and losses). At this point I assume the lord teleports and tries to disprupt your firewarriors, so you have to be dancing at least one squad at all times. The necron warriors still arent shooting you yet, as you are too far away. Your firewarrior, however, can see and shoot the necron warriors because the stealthsuit is spotting. Once the necron warriors get into shooting range (and continue to close, as they are going for melee) you move your whole army back another space and resetup. (Probably still dancing the 1 squad from the lord).

This would only work until he brings scarabs or techs up to wraiths, but it might work for a while, and the increased range/damage upgrades for you should help extend that time too.

Dunno if it will work, but its an idea and you did request ideas. :)

[Aver]

ok seems like i have been posting in this thread alot but any way. My question is i like the idea behind tau pathfinders & i dont mind the fact they dont do much damage i just have an issue with the range in which they use that ability. they have to move in to almost melee range it seems like to mark a target also it's really hard to select that unit on the field due to the fact that it looks very similar fw squads but i guess a solution to that would be to hot key them. Does anybody else have this problem of losing your path finders very easily specially while marking targets. If so can anybody help me out here

[ir0nside]

Vorlock, the main problem is that I am getting bogged down in tier 1 against 2-3 squads of reinforcing Warriors, along with a well-microed Necron Lord. Keep in mind, I don't really have problems against players who go for economy builds, or extreme rushes such as Warrior/Lord first. It's specifically the ability of free and cheaply reinforced Necrons which have very high accuracy while moving which simply win the game of attrition if I dance away from them.

Whenever they get enough range to get some good firing-time on the Warriors, the Necron Lord just teleports in and starts chasing my squads around, buying time for his Warriors to get into shoot-walk range again.

I'm going to be experimenting more and more, and watching replays. I've recently come across a build which has fared well against this in a few replays, and am going to be testing it out. It's pretty contrary to common thought on these forums, however.

[ir0nside]

Well, I think I might be finally cracking the issue - I need to play against some better Necron players to test this out, first. Hrm - I'll update as soon as I confirm over the course of a few more games.

I'm also going to be heavily testing Crisis Suits soon, with Flamers specifically. I'm going to test the hell out of them, to get some more definitive answers regarding their use.

Stay tuned.

[Compeador]

Just read the tut, nicely done. Thanks for using spoiler tags, that would have been ridiculous if it were all expanded.

I know a lot of Tau players have trouble vs necron, and i'm fine tuning a rush build that effectively takes them out of the game early if done right. It's worked so far against every necron except ILike_tau_win and Rank13, the two "best" necrons atm... although I believe crons to be rather skilless. I'll not elaborate much on it, as I don't want to give away my strats to people who'll face me in auto :P but it involves kroot and vespids.

Pretty cool that the game with me and DAS is featured in it. It's almost all infantry fighting, as neither of us really ever had the float to go vehicles, but it's definitely anexciting and educational watch. I think that IG will actually be one of Tau's hardest matchups in the coming weeks, for various reasons that I've explained to DAS_CAPN.

Only thing I think is wrong about the tut is the building of both barracks. An extra production building for a unit of different orientation is just too much req to throw out when it should be focused more on fighting, reinforcements and new squads. I'll either go all CC or all ranged, but rarely a mixture of both. I find it a lot more simple and economical to stick with one orientation... ranged or CC, than to try to mix the two.

I'd like to make some notes about tau vehicles though.
The devilfish can be used in a pinch to save your units from focused fire or melee, and to redeployy in a different, unexpected area. You can see a single example of this in the match between myself and DAS_CAPN, but it's definitely useful, especially for the devilfish's low cost.
The harbinger drone ship should be used against heavily CC oriented armies. Nobs, zerks, kroot, banshees, anything that picks up something sharp and swings it at you, as they'll have a tougher time targetting and destroying the drones than a shooty army would.
The skyray should be used against masses of ranged units. Extra points if they're expensive low HP ranged masses such as an enemy fire warrior massing tau. Not really to be used vs CC oriented armies, as the barrage sometimes tracks the squad. If they close in with your firewarriors, the missiles do full friendly fire.... watch out.
The drone squads are kinda neato, though I haven't really found a solid use for them yet. Yea sure maybe they protect crits and relics, but if I'm going to invest the req power and support cap into buying them, I want a definite use for them.

All in all, a good tut. Good work, and keep it up. Any questions for me (the "top" tau player atm?)just ask.

[ir0nside]

I'm actually in agreement with you as to the "two barracks" approach. It seems I'm just realizing in recent days what you'd realized long ago with that genetically engineered RTS brain of yours.

It seems that one of my big shortcomings (and reasons for feeling the need to build Kroot barracks to support Firewarriors and so forth) was due to my focus on fewer, but more heavily reinforced squads. This simply doesn't work for the Tau and their setup time - with 2 "big" FW squads, you end up running the entire match and not fighting. I've begun getting 4 quick FW squads rather quickly, which allows one to have multiple squads shooting up melee units which are chasing your others around - much more effective, and I haven't felt the need to build a Kroot barracks lately.

I praise the Devilfish every chance I get, honestly. One thing many people don't realize is, is that they provide a lot of firepower for such a cheap unit, on top of all their other uses.

I'll probably send you a few PMs in the near future to sharpen the guide up with your perspectives. Thanks a ton.

[Sandanjuu]

I praise the Devilfish every chance I get, honestly. One thing many people don't realizeis that they provide a lot of firepower for such a cheap unit, on top of all their other uses.

I agree with this. The devilfish is easily, in my opinion, the best transport in the game. Three main guns vs infantry, infiltrated and fast compared to the speed of most of our units. If broadsides actually worked I'd love the devilfish even more.

As it stands, you can get 6 Krootox and 2 devilfish for your vehiclecap. Nice little base punching force, especially with how ridiculous Krootox are right now.

[Kronickle]

Okay, so Tau has a strong T4 after all, but how do you get that far? It seems like every race just has to spam walkers in T2 to overrun the Tau. 2-3 Dreds walking forward with heavy bolter SM back up, what do you do?

What is the best Tau AV unit in the early tiers?

[Njorhg]

Pathfinders paired with broadsides work really well
Not too much to do Kroot side...

[Kronickle]

AV seems kind of weird with Tau. Like no single unit is good at it. Something always has to be paired with Pathfinders, or weak Stealthsuits upgraded with expensive stuff. It seems too easy for a smart enemy to just eliminate the fragile Pathfinders/Broadsides/Stealthsuits and there goes all your AV.

One more question though, what exactly does the sonic pulse ability do to an enemy, and how does the Vespid leader change their effectiveness?

[Njorhg]

Oh no, I meant Broadsides + Pathfinders = OMGWTFBBQ

A simple team of Broadsides certainly deal adequate damage even with their rockets... Which I have started to use more with how railguns are so random

[Soundwave]

I love packing a devilfish with two squads of pathfinders and a full squad of broadsides, or vice-versa. but i enjoy having two markerlights, especially since you can't aim the broadsides.
I have a general question tho, when you guys hot-key troops do you make one group a hotkey? like my commander is always one 1 and my stealth troops are usually 0 and maybe 9. then my kroot are 5 and 6,leaving 2-4 for firewarrior squads. the rest get filled by whatever else. I find I run out of numbers to hotkey too so I end up playing with only 10 squads :D The only hotkey I make that selects multiple units is for my devilfish, I group it with whatever it is transporting. Oh and if I have multiple hammerheads or stingrays I may group them together.
I just find that when you group say two FWs together on one hotkey it isn't that functional (been playing CoH)if I tab to one squad and click to move they both move, don't they? I would love to see a hotkey interface like relic did for Company of Heroes.

[gzyzwc]

Normally I group my commander and 2 FW squads as 1. since I tend to always use them as a large force.

2 is my 2 squads of kroot, to soak up firepower, and harras an enemy, charging them into combat and canabilizing as I go.

Then I put my missle barge's as 3

Broadside squads (1 or 2 depending on map/race) as 4.

Transports as 5

Scout squads I do indipendantly as 6, and 7.

I hotkey my barracks as 0, and my vehicle command as 9. leaving 8 open.

[Soundwave]

now doesn't that leave you feeling like you dont have enough precise control? or does tabbing through your squads and then clicking to move/attack/etc.. only effect the squad you've tabbed to? I don't think it does, if anyone has played CoH they know what I'm talking about, it most certainly should have been put into Dark Crusade, aswell as the tabs for buildings above the squad function menu, great stuff.

[Aver]

Ok ironside i feel your pain with the necron warriors i was in a game today were the person did the same thing where he massed necron warriors & nl. They totall destoryed my commander cause of all the reasons you listed above.... even with a heavy flamer it seemed usless cause there were so many anything i did felt usless. also i believe i did a major screw up & started building a path of enlightment before i even had one squad of fw

[ir0nside]

now doesn't that leave you feeling like you dont have enough precise control? or does tabbing through your squads and then clicking to move/attack/etc.. only effect the squad you've tabbed to? I don't think it does, if anyone has played CoH they know what I'm talking about, it most certainly should have been put into Dark Crusade, aswell as the tabs for buildings above the squad function menu, great stuff.

I agree that the CoH method should have been incorporated into CoH, as it gives a lot more precise control. However, with a lot of practice, your "APM" (Actions Per Minute) will go up. This is a direct parallel to the ability to quickly select squads with your mouse alone, in the middle of a fight, rather than using tab to do so.


also i believe i did a major screw up & started building a path of enlightment before i even had one squad of fw

Yes, that would be suicide. You need Firewarriors out right behind your Commander, and you need to make multiple squads of them rather than reinforcing the ones you have - just keep them at size three, even if that means singularly adding a reinforcement or two. Warning, this only works with intensive micro due to dancing the more numerous but smaller squads around your enemies while others continue firing.. however, that same potential for micro due to more squads is seemingly the key to overwhelming Necron Warriors.

They can only have so many squads, as the fourth takes an eternity to get out, even with 100%. Therefore, if you have 4-5 FW squads, they can only tie up so many of them. I've also found that you need to quickly crush their Warriors, and keep the pressure on. If they manage to disengage and save their Warriors repeatedly, you'll end up facing Wraiths. A single Wraith is enough to devastate a FW squad when it gets in range, and will suddenly compound your problems. It's good to have Devilfish to combat this, but don't stay and fight, as Wraiths are detectors. You need to load them up, drive away, and re-deploy, luring Wraiths out ahead of other units so you can pick them off.

I have a lot more refining to do against Necrons, mind you. I still handily beat other Necron builds, such as very early Warrior rushes and hard-tech builds. It's only the "standard" Lord + Warrior spam early game which gets me.

[Aver]

yea thanks for the tips with the multiple squads just next time i will have to remember not to rush the tech cause thats definalty what got me

[ir0nside]

I've found a new tactic which poses extreme threat to the Greater Good.

Never let Space Marines get Landspeeders and Probes. Together, they can effectivelly slaughter anything you bring to the table, and unless you have an ample supply of Pathfinders to serve as detectors, and are able to kill off all the probes they have escorting the Landspeeders, you will not be able to fend them off. They detect your Stelathsuits, obliterate them, and continue to chew apart your infantry in mere seconds. 3-5 Speeders can tear three squads of reinforced Firewarriors into tiny pieces in under 15 seconds, and are too numerous to EMP grenade (as if they could EMP them all before the XV15s were dead).

You've been warned! More to come.

[VoydAngel]

Ok, I have parsed through the RGDs for the 2 broadside weapons and have posted them here:


GameData["accuracy"] = 1.000000
GameData["accuracy_reduction_when_moving"] = 1.000000

GameData......["armour_piercing"] = 0.000000

GameData......01"]["armour_piercing_value"] = 0.000000
GameData......01"]["armour_type"] = infantry_low.lua

GameData......02"]["armour_piercing_value"] = 40.000000
GameData......02"]["armour_type"] = infantry_med.lua

GameData......03"]["armour_piercing_value"] = 40.000000
GameData......03"]["armour_type"] = infantry_high.lua

GameData......04"]["armour_piercing_value"] = 30.000000
GameData......04"]["armour_type"] = infantry_heavy_med.lua

GameData......05"]["armour_piercing_value"] = 20.000000
GameData......05"]["armour_type"] = infantry_heavy_high.lua

GameData......06"]["armour_piercing_value"] = 10.000000
GameData......06"]["armour_type"] = monster_med.lua

GameData......07"]["armour_piercing_value"] = 5.000000
GameData......07"]["armour_type"] = monster_high.lua

GameData......08"]["armour_piercing_value"] = 10.000000
GameData......08"]["armour_type"] = commander.lua

GameData......09"]["armour_piercing_value"] = 35.000000
GameData......09"]["armour_type"] = vehicle_low.lua

GameData......10"]["armour_piercing_value"] = 35.000000
GameData......10"]["armour_type"] = vehicle_med.lua

GameData......11"]["armour_piercing_value"] = 30.000000
GameData......11"]["armour_type"] = vehicle_high.lua

GameData......12"]["armour_piercing_value"] = 25.000000
GameData......12"]["armour_type"] = building_low.lua

GameData......13"]["armour_piercing_value"] = 25.000000
GameData......13"]["armour_type"] = building_med.lua

GameData......14"]["armour_piercing_value"] = 25.000000
GameData......14"]["armour_type"] = building_high.lua

GameData......["max_damage"] = 1000.000000
GameData......["min_damage"] = 500.000000
GameData......["min_damage_value"] = 25.000000
GameData......["morale_damage"] = 2.000000

GameData["attack_priorities"] = Reference([[tables\type_armour_table.lua
GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_01"] = armour.lua
GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_01"]["screen_name_id"] = "$90100"
GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_02"] = armour.lua
GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_02"]["screen_name_id"] = "$90100"
GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_03"] = armour.lua
GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_03"]["screen_name_id"] = "$90100"
GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_04"] = armour.lua
GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_04"]["screen_name_id"] = "$90100"
GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_05"] = armour.lua
GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_05"]["screen_name_id"] = "$90100"
GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_06"] = armour.lua
GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_06"]["screen_name_id"] = "$90100"
GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_07"] = armour.lua
GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_07"]["screen_name_id"] = "$90100"
GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_08"] = armour.lua
GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_08"]["screen_name_id"] = "$90100"
GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_09"] = armour.lua
GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_09"]["screen_name_id"] = "$90100"
GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_10"] = armour.lua
GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_10"]["screen_name_id"] = "$90100"
GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_11"] = armour.lua
GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_11"]["screen_name_id"] = "$90100"

GameData["max_range"] = 40.000000
GameData["min_range"] = 8.000000
GameData["reload_time"] = 4.000000

GameData["accuracy"] = 0.700000
GameData["accuracy_reduction_when_moving"] = 0.600000

GameData["area_effect"]["throw_data"]["direction_angle_random"] = 5.000000
GameData["area_effect"]["throw_data"]["force_max"] = 25.000000
GameData["area_effect"]["throw_data"]["force_min"] = 5.000000
GameData["area_effect"]["throw_data"]["impact_point_x"] = 0.000000
GameData["area_effect"]["throw_data"]["impact_point_z"] = 0.000000
GameData["area_effect"]["throw_data"]["up_angle_max"] = 25.000000
GameData["area_effect"]["throw_data"]["up_angle_min"] = 10.000000

GameData......["armour_piercing"] = 0.000000

GameData......01"]["armour_piercing_value"] = 5.000000
GameData......01"]["armour_type"] = infantry_low.lua]])

GameData......02"]["armour_piercing_value"] = 5.000000
GameData......02"]["armour_type"] = infantry_med.lua]])

GameData......03"]["armour_piercing_value"] = 5.000000
GameData......03"]["armour_type"] = infantry_high.lua]])

GameData......04"]["armour_piercing_value"] = 5.000000
GameData......04"]["armour_type"] = infantry_heavy_med.lua]])

GameData......05"]["armour_piercing_value"] = 5.000000
GameData......05"]["armour_type"] = infantry_heavy_high.lua]])

GameData......06"]["armour_piercing_value"] = 5.000000
GameData......06"]["armour_type"] = monster_med.lua]])

GameData......07"]["armour_piercing_value"] = 12.000000
GameData......07"]["armour_type"] = monster_high.lua]])

GameData......08"]["armour_piercing_value"] = 5.000000
GameData......08"]["armour_type"] = commander.lua]])

GameData......09"]["armour_piercing_value"] = 45.000000
GameData......09"]["armour_type"] = vehicle_low.lua]])

GameData......10"]["armour_piercing_value"] = 35.000000
GameData......10"]["armour_type"] = vehicle_med.lua]])

GameData......11"]["armour_piercing_value"] = 25.000000
GameData......11"]["armour_type"] = vehicle_high.lua]])

GameData......12"]["armour_piercing_value"] = 15.000000
GameData......12"]["armour_type"] = building_low.lua]])

GameData......13"]["armour_piercing_value"] = 15.000000
GameData......13"]["armour_type"] = building_med.lua]])

GameData......14"]["armour_piercing_value"] = 15.000000
GameData......14"]["armour_type"] = building_high.lua]])

GameData......["damage_reduction_when_moving"] = 0.000000
GameData......["max_damage"] = 870.000000
GameData......["min_damage"] = 675.000000
GameData......["min_damage_value"] = 25.000000
GameData......["morale_damage"] = 2.000000

GameData["attack_priorities"] = Reference([[tables\type_armour_table.lua]])
GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_01"] = armour.lua]])
GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_01"]["screen_name_id"] = "$90100"
GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_02"] = armour.lua]])
GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_02"]["screen_name_id"] = "$90100"
GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_03"] = armour.lua]])
GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_03"]["screen_name_id"] = "$90100"
GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_04"] = armour.lua]])
GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_04"]["screen_name_id"] = "$90100"
GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_05"] = armour.lua]])
GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_05"]["screen_name_id"] = "$90100"
GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_06"] = armour.lua]])
GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_06"]["screen_name_id"] = "$90100"
GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_07"] = armour.lua]])
GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_07"]["screen_name_id"] = "$90100"
GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_08"] = armour.lua]])
GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_08"]["screen_name_id"] = "$90100"
GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_09"] = armour.lua]])
GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_09"]["screen_name_id"] = "$90100"
GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_10"] = armour.lua]])
GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_10"]["screen_name_id"] = "$90100"
GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_11"] = armour.lua]])
GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_11"]["screen_name_id"] = "$90100"


GameData["max_range"] = 30.000000
GameData["min_range"] = 0.000000
GameData["reload_time"] = 4.000000
Basically what this means is that the Missile pods do 135.1875 base damage per broadside unit (40% less if its on the move), and the Railguns do 195 base damage per broadside unit. (So times 3 if all three squad members are alive and attacking the same target). The railguns have better range over the rockets (railguns 40, rockets 30), but the rockets have infantry disruption. So far I would say the two weapons are relatively even. (Note that neither of them has any target priorities set.) But here is where it gets a bit more complicated. Armor Types.

(All following dps numbers are per unit, not per squad)
Missiles:
Against all infantry types (and commanders), the missiles only do 5% (6.759375 dps) so obviously the disruption is the main effect here.

Against Avatars and BTs (and any other "Monster_High" that I'm forgetting the do 12% (16.2225 dps)

Against all buildings, we do 15% (20.278125 dps)

Against Vehicles we have some higher numbers:
low: 45% (60.834375 dps)
med: 35% (47.315625 dps)
high: 25% (33.796875 dps)

Railguns:
Against infantry low, railguns do 0% (0 dps) luckily there are very few if any of these units =) (im pretty sure there are zero actually).

Against infantry_high and _med they do 40% (78 dps). Units that fall here are bad dok, shoota boy, stormboy, tankbusta, slugga boy, banshee, dark reaper, rangers, guardian, cultists and scouts. (I havnt looked up the new Necron and Tau units Armor Types yet, sorry.)

Against infantry_heavy_med we do 30% (58.5 dps), troops include nob, nob leader, stormboy nob leader, warlock, warlock seer, warp spider, marine tactical, assault marine, marine sergeant, and raptors. (if anyone wants to give me a list of armor types for tau and necron units, i'll be happy to edit this to include them.)

Against infantry_heavy_high we get 20% (39 dps), troops: terminator, assault terminator, grav platform, grav platform brightlance, obliterator, etc...

Against Commanders, horrors, & possessed space marines (monster_med & commanders) we do 10% (19.5 dps).

Against Avatars and BTs (and any other "Monster_High" that I'm forgetting the do 5% (9.75 dps).

Against all buildings, we do 25% (48.75 dps)

We are evenly effective against pretty much all vehicles (except the Squiggy, and LR):
low & med: 35% (68.25 dps) - chaos rhino, land speeder, rhino, vyper, falcon, wartrak, trukk, chaos defiler, chaos predator, dreadnought, hellfire dreadnought, predator, whirlwind, fire prism, wraithlord, killa kan, looted tank

high: 30% (58.5 dps) - land raider, squiggoth
From these numbers I feel we can ascertain a seemingly obvious (to me) role for the Broadside Team: Right in the middle of any offensive push, defensive respite, or anywhere else you can get to their infantry and vehicles. Obviously you want them entrenched whenever possible, the railguns just plain do more damage all the way around. I also think its fairly obvious that the rockets are only there to help them push back some rushing infantry while you prepare to entrench and are not a logical primary attack option for them. IMHO I would use the broadsides primarily as an offensive attacker to aid in any and every battle i could get them to, secondarily I would set them up with devilfish to drop into a base (away from turrets preferably). Only as a tertiary role would I relegate such a strong unit to a purely defensive role sitting at my base as in that case they truely would only be good at draining your squad cap.

I'll leave you to decide if you want to use them, this is just how to use them. =)

[ir0nside]

I saw that in another post, and think it's great. I really wish we had all the DPS values, as I plan on adding them in the guide for each unit when they are.

[Azulsky]

Hey ironside, it says that all your replays are unavailable, i really want to see them as i am performing miserably as Tau in 1v1 automatch, and i know they have potential.

I would say the biggest problem that the Tau have now is the weakness of any AV in the Tier1 or even beginning tier 2. The solution is in the Broadsides, yes they are broken. They need to let us aim them, and while i respect the fluff, i think a concession needs to be made.

I would remove the "effective against all units", and make the broadsides "effective vs vehicles" and make it have vehicle armor. They need to make the XV8 suits have the vehicle armor as well. I cant stand the fact that a SM player is using Tier1 snipers and is killing my battle suits. Yes i agree that they should take infantry cap, but surely reason would argue that they need to have vehicle armor. It takes forever to get the vehicle beacon built and stingrays arent cutting it.

I need to get a replay up of my attempt of fighting out of an IG turret trap on the Fear Map, in which they trapped me in my side with their turrets and took the crit points to win. 1 broadside died as it tried to deploy, and 1 died as it fired it first shot, and the 2nd was a few seconds behind. How do replays go up

The biggest problem i have is that i have to split my economy between 2 barracks, and i cant put out a decent force in time to counter anything

[ir0nside]

Gah, crap. They were on a temporary host site, I just need a more permanent file host for them.

In any case, read my recent replies to Compeador just a page back in this thread - he comments on the fallacy of dual-barracks, and I too have had the same conclusions in recent matches, after changing my approach to Firewarriors. You really only need one or the other.

I'll try to get the replays hosted.

[Azulsky]

Okay i tried out going with 1 barracks, i did a quick Automatch and the guy lagged out but i got my tier 1 build order up, i wanted to ask if someone would review it.

This was me against Imperial Guard
http://www.box.net/public/bti8hl80on
I found it interesting how quickly i was able to take out their command squad

[ir0nside]

Alright, there are a number of problems with your gameplay in that replay.

First, you need to get a builder out first, to help with your Barracks. It's a small map, so you need that Commander out first, and as fast as possible (thus two builders on barracks). The reason you want the Commander out first, is because he can singlehandedly break all three entire Guardsmen squads with his flamer with a bit of micro, rendering the IG's entire infantry force ineffective. He can run them off points, pick them off, and so forth. He's defenitely the most valuable early invesment against here.

Second, you used your Firewarriors to cap a point, instead of attacking, and then waited for a second FW squad after your Commander before attacking - this is a no-no. You should be out there tearing apart his Guardsmen immediately. If you'll note, he took almost complete map control outside of your base by the time you attacked, including getting an LP done on that Relic before you were done with that battle. Tau have a hard time killing IG buildings early on, and he could have upgraded that to an LP2 and given you a real hard time.

Third, you used your Stealthsuit to decap the Relic right in front of an entire Guardsman squad. Your Stealthsuits de-cloak while decapping, thus this wasted one of your important early capper units, which later on become valuable anti-vehicle units when upgraded. Don't lose them.

Fourth, no jetpacks. You need Builder > Stealth > Stealth > Jetpacks in the HQ right away when the match starts, not after your starting builder has begun both buildings. Jetpacks let your Stealths jump around, decap points, spot for your FWs and get out of dodge when the enemy detects them, and more. Not only that, but it enables your TC to jump around, too, which is not optional - but mandatory.

Just practice a bit more, and you'll iron these issues out in no time.

[Azulsky]

Ok so i was right in getting 2 Stealth Suits for capping

Ok so build commander + Flamethrower and get him

Hotkey the barrack, set it on Commmander

I dont know if you noticed but at 2 points i was building nothing and waiting for req to build, i had 4 points, how do you balance how many LP's you build and how many FW squads.

Let me try it again, ill post

That Box.net site gives you 1GB free file storage, try it out

[ir0nside]

You should rally your barracks right to the doorstep of their base, and your Commander will rush right over, which is exactly what you want. Just make sure you're paying attention. I always observe my barracks for a moment as my Commander is finishing, and when he pops out, rally the barracks to him instead. Have one FW squad que'ed up before he finishes.. and que another one up not too long after that.

But yes - attack with Commander, use his flamer to keep multiple squads broken, and they will be futile against him.

[NeoHunter]

By the way, does the Greater Knarloc actually regenerate hitpoints? There was once I built one and after a battle, I checked to see if he was regenerating. After a while, his hitpoints didn't seem to increase.

[Azulsky]

I dont think so, at least it didnt when i used it in the campaign

I got me vs another Tau, and thats a whole nother strat
specially when i get to his base and he has a carny squad sitting there, i knocked out their morale with the TC but it was fallen city and its hard as heck to dance when u have 1 direction to do it in.

Ill try and do some more tommorow, need my sleeps

[Sandanjuu]

Ok.. I got a replay for you serious Tau guys out there to watch:

Tau&Nec vs Nec&Nec.

http://www.darkfalls.net/replay/interesting_whattodo.rec

Essentially, they dual lord rush me, cripple my economy, then flayed mass rush. The rest is down hill from there.
My friend and I both suffered from an odd bug, however- we had extremely difficulty getting our troops to fire on the enemy scarabs. If you watch in the necron base we assault, our troops keep shooting the monolith instead of repeated attempts to shoot the scarabs repairing it.. ohwell.

I'm curious what your guys' thoughts are, particularly because, from at least my viewpoint there was really nothing I could do to stop it. They were very good with solar flare/deepstriking flayd to completely cripple my firewarriors, too.

Edit:

LOL Man, my friend and I are having a great night:

Tau&Nec vs Ork&Ork (http://www.darkfalls.net/replay/lostagain.rec)

I'm either the worst kroot player in the world, Orks are just plain stronger, having both ranged/melee is just plain better, or all of the above. It killed me that they TECHED while reinforcing all those squads.

[Demostruction-K]

mm. its not because of you. Kroots = good melee, Orcs = superior at melee. noticed that myself when did 1on1 skirmish and randomed orcs. Earlier games i noticed that kroots would pown everything on theyr way (but seems i havent played with orcs). Then next time i played i used TC and FW build an you guys should have seen their green faces when they were howling and falling in battle. it was bloodbath. they are so slow and are half dead when they get to half way to my FW's and start falling back desperately. FW are bread n butter for Tau.

For the greater good! :salute:

[maldridge5783]

For a thread this long, it has been surprisingly on topic, virtually free of ranting and full of good advice. I consider this a minor miracle.

@Sandanjuu I can't watch your replay here at work, but 2v2's are a whole other animal from 1v1 Auto. A lot of it can depend on the map you're playing. I think the hardest maps for Tau (and maybe any race) to play against Necron are large, resource sparse maps like the new Van De Mar Mountains (or some name close to that) while you will do better on small maps (like Tiboraxx) or large maps with lots of resources (I forget the name, but its the first alphabetical 2v2 map.) In addition, I've had a lot of trouble playing on a team with Necron as Tau. There are some pacing problems between the two. They just are not ready to do things at the same time. To be honest, I'm not sure what makes the best partnership with Necron, but with Tau, most of the other races are good, though my current favorite is Chaos. They seem to fill in the gaps Tau is missing (namely, durability.)

I've been working on a modified Kroot/Vespid build. There was something that rubbed me wrong about making the Vespids so early. Even though they can cripple the other player's early game economy, they are extremely fragile and cost boatloads. They end up crippling your economy as well. So, instead of building them as a building rusher, I've started building them like the Kroot's hero unit.

Builder > Kroot Nest
Queue Builder > Assist Kroot Nest
Queue Stealth Suit > cap points
Queue Stealth Suit > cap points
Builders > Queue Power Generator

At this point, I try to build 2 Kroot squads and 2 LPs before I set the Vespids to overwatch. I usually have around ~100 Rec at this point. Also, I don't immediately advance the first kroot squad into the enemy base. Kroot build relatively fast, and I see more advantage to waiting for the second squad to catch up so I have 8 Kroot and 2 squads to tie things up instead of sending in 1 squad and, more than likely, being forced to reinforce that unit. Ideally, I won't reinforce the Kroot squads until the Vespid hit the scene. It depends on the situation whether or not I have that luxury. After the Vespid pop, I set my Kroot Nest to overwatch Carnivores (I'll pause the overwatch after 1 squad pops), but once the vespid are spawn, I liberally reinforce the two Kroot squads.

After the third Kroot pop, I go Path to Enlightenment -> Feral Leap -> Vehicle Beacon -> Skyhammer -> Missile Barrage as soon as I can. There are also additional power generators in there somewhere; usually a second after Feral leap and a third after the beacon.

Also, it's worth mentioning that a lot of the success with the Kroot build lives and dies with being able to Cannabalize. If I am not able to do it, it makes winning a LOT tougher.

It's also worth noting that, since the Vespid will have 2 squads of Kroot with them on the scene, they can be more effective in combat. I usually use the shred ability early to start the cooldown ASAP, and then either finish off the building or move to tie up a weak, ranged unit to keep my guys alive. The more I can do to ensure I get to Cannabalize and to keep from reinforcing, the better off I'll be.

I've messed with adding Shapers to the build before I move on to the Vehicle Beacon, but that hasn't really been worth the resources. They're a bit too expensive for what they do.

[ir0nside]

Quick Update: Replays in the Racial Strategies section are now hosted and working properly!

[VoydAngel]

Yes, I did post my broadside usage post in another thread as an answer to a "how to use broadsides?" question, but deceided afterwards that it may be more of a help to the viewers of this thread, also I come here a lot cause I love Tau, and this is a surprisingly good and on topic thread. =)

Are there any other Tau units anyone would like me to analyze for them? and by analyze, I mean do detailed DPS and usage reccomendations...

[Aver]

Hey ironside i need some serious help. I keep on getting rushed like a made man, i usually have my tc, & 2 squads of fw. however my problem is that i'm having trouble mutli tasking it's really giving me problems cause i'm all about combat & kiting the people around however i forget to build & such. & if i do start building my guys lose the micro & die can anybody help me out here with some tips

[Kronickle]

Yeah, I'm no pro, but i figured out that part. Just shift+click (waypoint) your army in a big circle, or a triangle; whatever works for the map (and not into enemy territory). Make sure to set they waypoints far apart enough that they won't stop running for at least 15-20 seconds while you do your builder stuff.

[ir0nside]

Well, like I've told others.. if you are getting rushed when you have a TC + FW + FW, that means you are sitting in your base and waiting to be attacked - not being rushed. Don't confuse terms, here. If you mean your engaging the enemy in the field (not in your base) with your starting units, that is normal, and all is well. You should be hitting the enemy with your TC before your first FW arrives, to probe their defenses, and get an idea of what they're doing.. maybe even cause some losses - who knows.

In any case, Kronickle has the right idea, but you should never be away from your army while building for 15-20 seconds straight. That is terrible. Instead, you should simply work on improving your speed. Get the DC Grid Keys file to put almost every single button, building, unit, and ability right at your fingertips. Know your general building-plan very early, and train yourself to not have to think about what you'll be building "soon". When it is time to build it, simply pop over, get your builder, hit "A" and then whatever the key for the building is.. and double control-group click (the number of the group twice) back to the action. It should only take mere seconds.

If you for some reason -need- a few more seconds to build, you can just select your forces and move set them to retreat back for a few seconds.. but I don't recommend that approach, as Tau cannot fire while moving, that gives enemies like Necrons or long ranged units "free hits" without return fire.

[Aver]

also i'm finding the TC to be insanly weak(hp wise) it seems like no matter what they always target my tc & he drops to like no health & whn i try to jump him away he gets stund & by the time he gets & can jump again he is dead pretty much also when i move him into range for flamer he gets droped so fast

[Kof Canabis]

I have noticed most Chaos players use raptors and CL against tau, which kick ass kroot, and can melee FW (along with cultists as well) .
Well, we all know its easy to out-number the Chaos's melee squads with FW squads and a TC, and with a little skills of micro - win the match.

Then i thought as a csm player what to do against that, and i figure csm could go for HB (assuming the tau wont go for kroot), and they kick ass FW + TC.

So, what should a tau player with FW already made should do? try to spawn some kroot? go tier2 for upgrades or veh?

[Sandanjuu]

The key to both of those problems, Kof_Canabis, is scouting. Unfortunately, on large maps scouting may not be that easy. But ultimately, you'd have to scout.

Depending if your opponent is smart enough to pressure you while your at a disadvantage, you may not have a chance to press out kroot/vehicles before you die.

Unfortunately, it's what I feel is one major disadvantage of Tau. If you build both barracks, your behind your opponents economy wise. If you build one, your commited. If they luck out and build the counter, your close to done depending on the size of the map.

It's part of the reason I'm worried that if more players learn to mix their forces, Tau may have trouble on their hands. In a replay I posted up there ^ the ork players we faced built both, and it proved to be a short end for me.

[Kof Canabis]

The problem with scouting is that you do need to cap, and for the real problem - you have to choose which rax to build right away (or should i go for gen first?).

[Sandanjuu]

I build rax first, most tau players do. But your hero can't cap, so he can scout.

[BurningMonk]

also i'm finding the TC to be insanly weak(hp wise) it seems like no matter what they always target my tc & he drops to like no health & whn i try to jump him away he gets stund & by the time he gets & can jump again he is dead pretty much also when i move him into range for flamer he gets droped so fast

Yeah he's incredibly weak in MP. In the campaign he can be upgraded to a more reasonable level, but for multi stuff he's got ~1200hp?!? Man that's just said for a Hero unit. I was playing last night 2v2 on Into the Breach, I jumped my TC out to see the enemy and immediately had him jump back. By the time he landed and I had clicked for him to jump back he was dead. Also the Ethereal get knocked around a LOT. Whenever he gets hit he flies like 2 inches across my screen and usually father back than where I wanted him to go. It makes those moments when a SM squad drops from the orbital relay right onto your Ethereal pretty hair-raising. Especially if you lose your Ethereal all your units lose major moral.

[ir0nside]

also i'm finding the TC to be insanly weak(hp wise) it seems like no matter what they always target my tc & he drops to like no health & whn i try to jump him away he gets stund & by the time he gets & can jump again he is dead pretty much also when i move him into range for flamer he gets droped so fast

I'm not sure why. You need to make sure you have the Flamer when you engage. As soon as the Flamer hits IG, Orkz, or Eldar, it'll break them practically instantly. As for CSM and SM, I generally use Kroot against them early. Against Necrons, I don't bother with the Flamer - Warriors rally morale too fast for it to really make a difference - they'll hurt your TC way too much before you break them all.


I have noticed most Chaos players use raptors and CL against tau, which kick ass kroot,

Raptors do not beat Kroot, unless you just leave them at 4. I've never lost to SM or CSM in tier 1 while using a Kroot Rush build. Just rush two squads in their base, make intelligent targeting/evasion decisions, and they'll sink into a hole they can't escape from while you slowly tech up. Usually it never gets that far.. I've always gotten a "gg" or an angry comment before game ends prematurely.

[Kof Canabis]

I build rax first, most tau players do. But your hero can't cap, so he can scout.
Then its stupid. what would scouting with your TC will help? I do that on default, but if he goes for CSM+HB how can i start spawn kroot now? the only hope i have is to rush him and kill CSM, or find his builders and kill them so they wont build armory, but its hard to rush with tau, cus they need numeral advanage.

ir0nside - raptors dont, but raptors + CL does.

[ir0nside]

That is why you micro them? Avoid the CL, run him around, tie up the Raptors, rinse repeat. They're easily beatable with some Kroot micro. You should be in their base, anyways - while you run their CL around, you can kill his Heretics which are extremely vulnerable. Watch the CSM replays in the Tactica.

[Kof Canabis]

That is why you micro them? Avoid the CL, run him around, tie up the Raptors, rinse repeat. They're easily beatable with some Kroot micro. You should be in their base, anyways - while you run their CL around, you can kill his Heretics which are extremely vulnerable. Watch the CSM replays in the Tactica.
who said the CL is far from raptors? who said he wont have csm or lp2 coming? I still think raptors + CL wins this.

maybe 3 kroot insted of going t2 could do the job. it also help you to build up more lps, so that also improve ur eco.

[ir0nside]

Try watching the video.

You don't just have one Kroot squad during this, you'll have at LEAST two, if not three, depending on how you choose to reinforce them. He's not going to have a Raptor squad and a CL by the time you have two or three Kroot squads - he'll have Raptors or CL. Once you do get in his base and start killing his builders and decapping his points, he's going to start making CSMs due to cost to defend his base, and that is where it all goes downhill. You don't even need to kill his CL.

[Azulsky]

Okay, here i have another example of me losing vs SM
I went with the Kroot because i was afraid of the ASM rush killing any Fire Warriors. I guess he got my barracks because of the increased mobility of the ASM.

http://www.box.net/public/oyiosxekbq

I was wiping him in the beginning, i lost the initiative somehow. I question why i went after his hq, and i see now that the time i wasted microing with his ASM's let him build a 2nd. I forgot to get Feral Leap until mid game too

This was a total departure from the firewarrior build i am practicing but i hadnt fought SM yet.

You can see late game i got the whole decap Stealth Suit strategy going, and i worked him over on his left side, but he had a dread coming and at that point i figured i was f'ed.

The only thing i can say is that i might have built too many Kroot, i had a total of 6 at the max, and i needed to get Vespids out earlier to take out his LP's.

So should i just mess with his base and go for the Crit Cap and win that way, or was i right in going after his structures.

[Aver]

does anybody but me feel that the tau commander doesnt have enough life i feel like he needs at least anthr 150-200 hp

[ir0nside]

Nope, he's fine as is. Two jumps means that if you pay attention, you can keep him out of most danger - you just have to develop the ability to anticipate it. Learn what he can and can't face, and you'll know when to jump out, jump in, and so forth.

[BurningMonk]

See my post above for comments on the TC.

[Aver]

yea it's just hard cause when i try to jump him they usually knock him down some how weather it be with rockets or grenades & then from there it's rather ugly

[Kronickle]

Keep him away from Heavy weapons fire, especially when he's solo.

[NeoHunter]

I tried playing as Tau Empire last night with 3 other players in multiplayer. My ally and me both choose to be Tau while our opponents chose Space Marines and Orks. 2 very tough races. So, the game started. In the end, both Tau players got whacked upside down by 2 squds of Assault Space Marines and a squad of Sluggas with an attached Big Mek. Both of us actually knew the opponents were going to be pumping out melee orientated units so we tried to get out the Kroot Carnivores as fast as we could. In the end, we found that 1 squad of Kroot cannot stand up against 1 squad of Assault Space Marines in Tier 1. I checked their stats and found that Assault Space Marines do more damage than Kroot Carnivores.

So, my question now is this. Are the Tau Empire really so weak that they cannot stand on their own in multiplayer games in the early stages of a game? Is there any counter anyone here can suggest?

[Aver]

I find in that situation neo you really want to get out your tau commander & fw rather then kroot, to me at least kroot are very worthless by them selves since they dont dothe best damage. there ment to be a meat shield that pretty much it. If you would have went fw & tc you could of tried kiting the assualt marines with the commander while the fw shot them down. but ya i'm finding that tau have alot of problems getting threw stage of tier 1 it seems like no matter wht in the past couple games i have played i always lose

[ir0nside]

No, Kroot was the right choice here I'd think - it's just that Tau seem to fare poorly in tier 1 against multiple opponents. I can't really speak for team games, as I'm primarily a duelist. However, I know that against that kind of mass, from that many players, it's just too hard to effectively coordinate FW mass, in my opinion.

[Aver]

but there is no way your kroot will stand up to squads of ASM they would get chopped to bits & thats with even your TC out. I would say in that situation you have two tau players have on go fw other go kroot but then again if they attack each base at the same time there both in trouble. Very difficult situation it is & i have been in to many of them it seems like

[NeoHunter]

It would seem that the Tau get whacked pretty badly by human players in Tier 1. Assault Space Marines have the mobility with the Jump Jets. If a Tau Player had some Fire Warriors out, he would activate the Jump Jets and close in the distance very quickly and engage the Fire Warriors in close combat. If the Tau player were to dance his Fire Warriors, he will lose since Fire Warriors need to stand still to fire their powerful Pulse Rifles. In this case, the Space Marine player is denying him this.

If the Tau player chose to produce Kroot first, the Assault Space Marines would still win in terms of health and melee damage. Same tactic with Chaos. An Ork player would attach his Big Mek to a squad of Sluggas and have them wade into the ranks of Kroot or Fire Warriors. He can then teleport anywhere if things get too hot or wants to move on to something more valuable to strike. Eldar can mass Banshees and they trash Kroot any day.

Last night, lost all 4 games as Tau in the first 2 to 3 minutes of each game.

[ir0nside]

but there is no way your kroot will stand up to squads of ASM they would get chopped to bits & thats with even your TC out.

Please, please stop assuming. I appreciate your input, but you are talking about things you obviously haven't tested out for yourself. Kroot in sufficient numbers will handle ASM fairly well, and the Tau player will have a lot more Kroot than the SM will have ASMs. I've actually just played a game where I had Kroot on "anti-ASM" duty naught but on hour ago this evening.. and due to their numbers, they'll eventually win vs assaults.

ASMs aren't the problem, though, in his case. The problem with mass fast Raptors/ASM is their mobility. They can jump into one of the enemies bases VERY quickly and overwhelm that particular player due to the sheer volume, before his fellow Tau can arrive to help. By then, it's too late.

[Stormbringer]

In the end, we found that 1 squad of Kroot cannot stand up against 1 squad of Assault Space Marines in Tier 1. I checked their stats and found that Assault Space Marines do more damage than Kroot Carnivores.

So, my question now is this. Are the Tau Empire really so weak that they cannot stand on their own in multiplayer games in the early stages of a game? Is there any counter anyone here can suggest?

Before Kroot can really "stand" against any other close-combat race, you have to build up their health with Cannibalism (+300) and get Feral Leaping for the knockdown effect. Shapers also add health and speed. Kroot Carnivores are classified as infantry and only have a 33-45 melee attack without upgrades. Assault Space Marines, by contrast, are heavy infantry and start with a 48-59 melee attack. In T1, you're gonna have to reinforce and 'swarm' SM a bit; Kroot function better with larger numbers. Vespids are also an option (M28-36/heavy infantry/stun blast), but they will set your economy back.

I tend to look at Kroot (especially Carnivore squads) as "distraction units"; they're good at pinning down a target, and distracting it, but they can't really go the distance in melee (unit for unit), especially against heavy hitters or squads with special morale damage (like flayed ones). They are a fast, lightly armored melee unit with special knockdown abilities designed to tie the enemy up while the Tau's ranged damage-dealers get the job done. As such, you'll always have to have larger numbers.

Tau are a major combined unit strategy race, and are seriously weakened when a component (melee, range, defense) is missing. In T1, you just have to stick it out, reinforce your squads, 'micro' your commander, and hope for the best. If you can rush your enemy first, and put him on the defensive, you'll have a better chance of arriving at T2/T3 with a solid economy.



ASMs aren't the problem, though, in his case. The problem with mass fast Raptors/ASM is their mobility. They can jump into one of the enemies bases VERY quickly and overwhelm that particular player due to the sheer volume, before his fellow Tau can arrive to help. By then, it's too late

I have to agree here. In fact, I often find Fire Warriors to be useless in T1 when fighting against SM/Chaos ... at least until you have a few Kroot squads up and some power rolling in for snare traps and the commander's flamer upgrade. ASM/Raptors are simply too maneuverable; they can trample Fire Warriors without even trying.

[Sandanjuu]

I'm curious if anyone has watched either of the replays I posted earlier, my friend and I are interested in hearing what your guys recommendations are as a Tau player.

[NeoHunter]

@Stormbringer: True that Kroot will become more useful but if your opponent chooses to rush you in Tier 1 with Assault Space Marines, you are screwed because you don't have access to Leap Attack or even have the time to let your Kroot sit down and eat.

[ir0nside]

I'm telling you. Kroot will take out ASM if you just reinforce them a bit. Try it out. I've beaten every Raptor/ASM rush I've encountered with the Kroot Rush build and some careful balancing between reinforcing, and building essential LPs early on.

Two Kroot squads in their base before they get Raptors, ASMs, or anything significant. Kill heretics, CSMs, ASMs, builders, decap points, harass all over, dance the FC around while your other squad kills units, keep doing this and they'll eventually be driven into resource hole.

[Stormbringer]

@Stormbringer: True that Kroot will become more useful but if your opponent chooses to rush you in Tier 1 with Assault Space Marines, you are screwed because you don't have access to Leap Attack or even have the time to let your Kroot sit down and eat

Well, as I said, you're going to need to reinforce your squads a bit. Kroot can't stand against ASM's on a unit-for-unit basis, but they can certainly push back an ASM 'rush' in T1. As Ironside said, just make sure you don't overdo it and mess up your tech advancement.

When your enemy 'rushes' you with an overwhelming force like that, he's using a lot of early resources to make it happen. Don't be afraid to match his resource use and reinforce your squads. You'll be behind a bit in teching up, but then your enemy will be behind too.

[NeoHunter]

@ir0nside: I did reinforce my Kroot but the opponent caught on to it rather quickly and started using the other squad of Assault Space Marines to decap my Strategic Points, effectively cutting off my Requisition. He rushed me so fast that I didn't have time to get a Listening Post up. In the end, I was spending too much on reinforcing and didn't have any more resources to get more Kroot or reinforce further.

[ir0nside]

I'm sorry, what you say is impossible. There is no way a Space Marine can get ASMs out before you have an LP up - something is terribly wrong with your build order.

[Nikitas]

Azulsky, I'm by no means an expert player so take my advice with a grain of salt. But it seems to me that you relied too much on your Kroot. There were several times during the battle where you had the res to get a Vespid out. If you had it would have sped up your destruction of the SMs base and given you a ranged unit with good morale damage and a 'crowd control' ability.

[SPADEZ]

Kroots are pretty much useless unless they are at full reinforcments, and have their kroot jump.. without the jump.. or the full squad.. they are really weak..

[ir0nside]

I'd like to start a discussion on what is a growing concern with many Tau players: anti-vehicle ability. In tier 2, Stealthsuits become potent anti-vehicle squads, however, as more people become aware of their useage and more familiar with their own detection abilities, I've been witnessing a trend of increasing vehicular abuse against Tau prior to tier 3.

A base with one turret in it is immune to Stealthsuits.
An army with one detector in it is immune to Stealthsuits.
An intelligent IG is immune to Stealthsuits.

Broadsides are too fragile and slow to use in an army situation as anti-vehicle platforms, and even if their targeting bug was fixed, it'd still be fairly difficult due to their infantry armor, high-profile, and immobility.

Skyrays are extremely fragile, and intelligent enemies have multiple options to destroy them. Sentinels with their long range and high speed, infiltrated Tankbustaz with long range, ASMs with Melta-Bombs, and so forth.

So here is an opportunity to discuss Tau anti-vehicular strategies. Please, try not to assume things in the course of the discussion - if you aren't sure about something, don't state it as fact. This will help the discussion progress without snags. =)

[Villiation]

I'd say instead of trying to get the broadsides to the frontline, have them set up somewhere a bit away from the line, then when enemy vehicles show up retreat to the broadsides... and try to lure the enemy there. Broadsides get killed if they need to march in and entrench. But... if you succeed into luring the enemy towards your already setup up broadsides I'd say you have a lot more chance.

[ir0nside]

It has been mentioned roughly many times in this thread alone, but Broadsides are not able to target specific targets. You cannot rely on Broadsides as AV.

[Nikitas]

Once again a warning, noob talking.

These are DPS values from the thread stickied in general discussion (Linky) (http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=116697). The values are vehicle high, vehicle medium, vehicle low.

Stealth Suit: 7.507; 34.650; 34.650

Broadside Missle: 33.797; 47.316; 60.834

Broadside Rail:56.250; 65.625; 65.625

Skyray: 2.100; 21.140; 21.140

Crisis Suit Fusion: 25.740; 73.260; 75.240

Crisis Suit Missle: 29.750; 37.188; 44.625

Now as a preliminary matter I think it's pretty safe to say that the Skyray AV isn't all that great. I may have missed something here, but it looks to me like the Skyray is pretty much there for infantry disruption and its artillery ability.

Just looking at the raw numbers it looks to me that if one is expecting vehicle spam then Crisis suits are very tempting especially if they get to use both the FB and the missles (I forget which weap the missle replaces). And although they are weak they do get jet packs so a bit of micro can save them. Of course, that's tier 4. But it's a case for Mont'ka.

Now the Broadsides are kind of suprising in that the missles are pretty decent in the vehicle department compared to railguns. At best the rail guns give 13 dps to vehicle medium damage, but that is easily made up if you can sneak in a stealth team to support the Broadside.

So as far as I am concerned screw the Skyray (for AV) and just go for the Broadsides.

[Vorlock]

Whats worse is that the broadsides weapons ranges are not good enough to leave them way behind the army to shoot at vehicles anyway. So, even if you could target them, it wouldnt be enough, especially if the enemy vehicles are behind the opposing army. (Though the rails are longer range than the missiles, if you drop a load of broadsides near an enemy base you can get a feel for how far they rails can shoot by watching when the farthers ones stop shooting after some buildings are destroyed.)

[ir0nside]

Flamer replaces Burst Cannon, Missiles replace Fusion. Flamer tears the crap out of everything anyways due to it's bugged reload rate, so Crisis suits seem like a good option. The problem is that they are very fragile against enemy infantry weaponry, so it's risky to jump them in, as it takes a long time to jump back out.

[NeoHunter]

I'm sorry, what you say is impossible. There is no way a Space Marine can get ASMs out before you have an LP up - something is terribly wrong with your build order.
Hmm...mainly because I am more concerned with producing enough Kroot to fend off the first wave of Assault Space Marines.

[Aver]

as far as anti vech like u said is a huge concern for me. I have a really hard time combating this it seems when ever i jump jet my stealth suits in they have a dector & if they can see them no exactly what i'm going to do. Maybe i just have problems microing my stealth teams cause i do have a problems finding them cause they are stealthed. but as you have said iron there huge part of our anti vechial cause our broad sides dont work they seriously need to be fix & buffed

[Mad Mac]

DPS numbers are interesting...

Confirms the Crisis Missle Pod is trash, but I already knew that. Still, it does mean that if you go Montka you can at least get Suits for AV at tier 3, while going Kayoun, you don't get the Krootox until after the 400/400 research.

Stealth Suits can do decent damage, but they're a support option at best.

Using Skyray for AV is a bad idea, obviously. I always thought they did better vs infantry.

Broadside Missles...pretty good AV damage, but they're short range on the slowest unit in the game. You can at least aim the missles, but I don't know you could reliably get vehicles in range without using a devilfish to drop them off.

[Stormbringer]

Until the targeting problems are fixed with Broadsides, I still don't see a reason to really use them. They do tremendous amounts of damage, but are so incredibly irritating to move about the map, you can easily waste precious time "baby sitting" these things instead of watching what's going on.

And, sure, you can use Devilfish to transport them, but that's assuming they even make it to the Devilfish and don't get "caught" on something in their spawn position. (The spawning/pathing for Broadsides is quite horrible on some maps.)

The most annoying thing about the targeting problem, though, is when you have an entrenched Broadside team, and some enemy just walks right up to it and starts slowly killing all three battlesuits while they're still shooting at something else! You can't even make them freakin' defend themselves: they just stand there and die, shooting at something that's not even a threat.

Broadsides are a powerful unit, but they require far too much 'micro' to even be useful. Against "cheese" races that require virtually no "micro" (*cough* Necrons *cough*), they can quickly turn a bad situation into a nightmare.

I use them for defense back at my base, especially if there's a Necron Lord taking a nap there ... but, besides that, it's a tough call whether I use them. Crisis Suits, the Tau Commander and Skyray missile barrages are more reliable.

[Vorlock]

Entrenched broadsides will never attack things right next to them because they have a minimum range on their railguns. Just a FYI.

[Stormbringer]

Entrenched broadsides will never attack things right next to them because they have a minimum range on their railguns. Just a FYI

Yeah, I kind of guessed that. What about standard missiles, though? Even when not entrenched, they just stand there, shooting everything but the things that are attacking them, ranged or melee.

In either case, it's not like you can actually move them out of the way in time; they're just too slow, even with Devilfish at the ready. To me, they're just a liability on the map waiting to be taken out. They're unpredictable, they never target what you want them to target, and they're just too easy to kill. A lot of people complain about Crisis Suits; for me, Broadsides are a bigger problem.

[Vorlock]

The missiles have no minimum range, and can be targeted (since they only fire when not entrenched) and have a shorter range than the rails, but still pretty good range. Their damage sucks though, so its mainly for disruption.

Its not worth bothering to try to move broadsides. I make a devilfish and when i tell them to board it i actually move the devilfish to the broadsides, otherwise it will take forever for even 1 to reach it and board the squad.

I agree, I'd like to see Broadsides really buffed/fixed, as its the only AV weapon available to both paths and it feels bad ignoring this unit that is supposed to be so good.

[Nikitas]

I don't want to turn this into a Mont'ka v. Kauyon debate, but here are some interesting numbers. Same format as before.

Krootox Gun: 3.500; 31.500; 63.000

Krootox Melee: 97.500; 146.250; 195.000


Obviously the gun is not meant for AV, but that Melee damage is great. Plus, the Krootox are very durable. Of course this doesn't mean much for Tier 3 vehicles, but Krootox seem to be the late game reply to vehicles of all kinds.