[1.2]BAR lab

[Bentguru]

Recording of a game played where the primary focus was testing exactly how many squads a single BAR riflemen can suppress and pin.

http://forums.relicnews.com/images/replays/Angoville (2).gifReplay Name: BAR Labbing
Map: Angoville (2)
Filename: 2p_angoville farms.2006-10-14.18-31-08.rec

Allied players: DrunkenOne (http://coh.relicnews.com/stats/search.php?player_name=DrunkenOne)
Axis players: Bentguru (http://coh.relicnews.com/stats/search.php?player_name=Bentguru)
Game Settings:
High Resources

Download (http://forums.relicnews.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6232)

[def]

So in summary...


1v2: 1 BAR supresses and kills 2 volksgrenadier squads

1v3: 1 BAR supresses 3 volks, can hold them off, kills 2/3rds of 2 squads with grenades, and has to retreat.

1v4: 1 bar loses to 4 volks in a matter of seconds

[Albi]

So in summary...


1v2: 1 BAR supresses and kills 2 volksgrenadier squads

1v3: 1 BAR supresses 3 volks, can hold them off, kills 2/3rds of 2 squads with grenades, and has to retreat.

1v4: 1 bar loses to 4 volks in a matter of seconds
LOL, nah thier not overpowered at all.

Nah not one bit.

[Willburn]

Ahahah.. fix plx.

[GunMetal]

ok, i have just watched the replay including the end of game howie crazyness lol and just need to say, erm... MP40s?

tbh i know BAR are overpowered but i deal with them by using 2 squads of volks with mp40s and the grenade upgrade you get thro the blitz tree.

ofc volks are gonna lose to BAR's without any upgrades themselves, infact 1v1 volks lose to riflemen unless they can keep their distance from them and utilise their superior accuracy.

i think ill do a similar test later tonight only showcasing how i try to deal with BAR's

Also i have a veterancy upgrade replay where i was testing out how many squads an MG can keep pinned and how resiliant it is to BAR supressing fire at the different levels AND Stug IV vet upgrade tests, (Elite stugs are ownage ;P)

[Bentguru]

Gun, we were testing how many units BAR's were supposed to be able to pin. It was not a tactics showcase and was never proported to be.

[GunMetal]

yes, i know but when in a game will you be going up against BARs without utilising MP40s? if you can kill 3/6 of the riflemen before they supress you surely they will beable to supress fewer squads? that was all i meant, i didnt mean "omg you n00b where were the mp40s" im not stupid enough to make such a comment :)

[DrunkenOne]

Well seeing how you can pin 3 volks before they get into effective mp40 range I don't think it would make much of a difference.

[GunMetal]

not gonna start a massive debate, because both bentguru and drunkenone obviously know a shitload more than me about the game and i KNOW bars are overpowered, but its not like you can't ever beat them with 2 squads of volks w/ mp40s, i have done so in the past and yes they can pin 3 squads of volks easily but they dont keep them perma-pinned as such. Like i said i have some testing of my own to do, ill post reports and replays on here later tonight.

[Mutters]

yes the allied infantry are tough, yes the axix armour is tough.

swings and roundabouts mate.

the allies need to have something, axis get all their early units in one bldg, allies in 2.
axis get some truly great infanrty killing light armour.

need i go on.

ok perhaps the BAR is a little kill all with a button, but i would like to see a suggestion as to how you can give something else back to them, or give up something on the axis side early game?

[GunMetal]

Mutters, i have said before (on another thread) give a BAR a small setup time. It would make grenadiers usefull and make retreating/running from nades harder for the rifles

[scotticus]

keep your units spread out with BAR its helps them not get pinned so fast. It has a small AOE. Volks can use fausts, I have lost 6 riflemen from a fresh squad from one faust, although they are a bit pricey for anti-infintry.

[Vicious_CB]

keep your units spread out with BAR its helps them not get pinned so fast. It has a small AOE. Volks can use fausts, I have lost 6 riflemen from a fresh squad from one faust, although they are a bit pricey for anti-infintry.

scot you are completely wrong on this one. It does not matter how spread out your units are as your opp just has to click on the squad he wants to pin. I have done this by sending a volks squad attacking the front and one behind so he is pinned between 2 volks. He turns on suppression pins the sq infront and turns 180 degrees can pins the sq trying to rear end him. SUPPRESSION IS NOT AOE Fausts have a short range and volks usually get pined before that making it pointsless.

[evotech]

BAR and caliopes is basicly everyting allies have over axis, yet... everyone want to nerf them to hell...

idk how allied side is supposed to survive after the patch

[Bentguru]

I'm absolutely against nerfing them to hell.

I'm for making them balanced.

[Timeless]

evotech, how the heck do we Axis players survive now? By playing INCREDIBLY well, even with early game handicaps. I'm sure Allies will find a way to survive without the need for such foolish advantages.

[Mutters]

i dont know how others find things, but i find that if as allied i dont control most of the fuel/ammo for the main part of the early game i 90% lose.

if they get pumas before i get ATs im gone in minutes

if axis survive to get tanks out and im not well up on VC points im dead as AT guns just arent mobile enough and my tanks cant really compete.

if you are worried about rifle spamming there are good ways to survive it.

the axix assualt ability seems equally as imba as BAR upgrade?

and panzershreks are amazing!

when you get one last guys firing them off 1 a second.... i assume that must be a bug?

[nolove247]

Supression fire should SUPPRESS. Maybe drop the munis cost on it a bit, and keep the cooldown at at least 15 seconds. If it applied suppression on the 1st go, but could pin an already suppressed squad, that would fix it right there...

Mgs can supress in 1-3 seconds of firing, but take upwards of 14 seconds to pin. It's only fair to tone BAR's down.

The thing about rifle spamming and fully upgrading them, is Axis can & will take advantage, teching to AC's/Stugs. They may lose some ground, but doubled up mg squads with volks/troopers for close support will inflict enough losses to limit pushes.

The munis they're spending on suppression fire and nades is equal to getting several shreks/stgs/mp40's and nade assaulting. Control the high munis, esp on Semois, and their rifle spam will be a whole lot less effective.

But for cryin out loud, fix the BAR.

[Dukati]

I would happily trade panzershrek for sticky's, or B.A.R.'s for MP40's, hell if I could trade both I'd throw in the axis assualt ability for free. The issue with B.A.R. is that they make all axis infantry useless, and they are available so early in the game that axis player has no choice to skip T2 and go straight for vehicles. One can hold ground against them (for a short period of time), but one can not advance.

There is a very specific situtation that one needs to for a grenaders to fire a panzershrek once every second. (Not that anyone ever trains Grenaders unless you're rushing someones base as B.A.R.'s insta-pin them too.) It has to be used under the terror doc, with zeal, and inspired assualt. It can happen, but it's very very rare that it does. On the other hand, B.A.R.s pinning 3 squads of Volks, that happens all the time.

[Mutters]

ive played ango against a guy who uses his infantry with his support weapons, specifically his HMGs just in behind. very very effective infantry tactic which gave him long enough with the fuel point to tech up (as i had to build a WPC to counter his tactics as BAR squads were ineffective.

you only need one fuel point after all for a few minutes and allies are in serious danger of losing.

listen i do agree with you about the fact that there is an imba here. most of the time i find that i have to build a barracks first in order to be able to win, but doesnt that indicate that there may be an imba with the allies set up? why cant i build a WPC first and stand a chance (against better player)? I should be able to but I cant.

the allies spam rifles for a reason, to be able to compete. the axis have a good early game advantage with variety of troops but you seem to want to spam volks and wonder why they get beat. i would suggest that you get a complete troop roster in your first bldg for reason, so use them in conjuction. yes this slows down your early game ability to control the map, but this is not really an issue for axis as you come good in the mid to late game.

[Timeless]

Actually I ran into a guy (only 1 now in all my games) just recently that wtfpwnd with a WSC opening. I saw his first MG and thought, "Ok, this is going to be an easy game". That'll learn me not to under estimate my opponents. Bleh.

[evotech]

i must be extremely retarded because i seem to loose every fucking single battle i play as allies...

[Timeless]

Post a rec. I'll pm you about some things you might do to change that.