[1.2 Balance] Proof That Sandbags Need to be Re-examined

[Bridger]

If you haven't already seen this week's Tales of Heroes (http://tales.tsncentral.com/) match go and check out the video (http://feeds.feedburner.com/%7Er/tohvideo/%7E3/37715580/). Bascially it's a match on lyon, where the allied player used sandbags to completely cut off the axis player from using the island on the right side of the map

He puts the sandbags at the end of the infantry only footbridge, so there's no way to drive through it, or cut it (cause it's not barbed wire). It's pretty stupid that the soldiers can't just jump over it, or simply dismantle it.

Yeah it's partially the maps fault, but this really shouldn't be an issue. Sandbags should not block and infantry unit from moving past them.

[Timeless]

Good catch.

[DrunkenOne]

Yeah, its pretty stupid. Add it to the (continuously increasing) list of retarded things in this game.

[Vicious_CB]

I guess Ill be making sandbags instead of barbed wire now ;)

[Trizzdog]

Yes indeed, sandbags are annoying in some situations. Thus why I use them whenever I can to block early pathways :p

I personally think that all non-HWT infantry (!) should be able to dismantle sandbags by, like, removing the bags. This way they can still block units, but not as well as wire.

[Methuselath]

Or perhaps jump over the bags. I mean, that would look cool, might need a new animation, but it'll look cool :D

[DrunkenOne]

I guess Ill be making sandbags instead of barbed wire now ;)
its not really worth it in most situations, takes like 5x as long to build.

[Sephlock]

If nothing else, this could be helpful to allies, since Pioneers get wire cutters after one phase escalation.

I guess if you really wanted to hold a line, you could barbed wire off a certain area, then, later in the game, when you suspect your enemy is getting wire cutters, put sandbags behind the barbed wire wall.

[ZuppoX]

CooL. Thx for the tip. -Only need build time now.

ZuppoX

[PrinceMyshkin]

Let me go sandbag abuse some ppl on auto now. :PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP

[Timeless]

lol

[Demon_Eyes]

Try burning down the bags with a flamethrower.

[bbos]

yea sand bags take to long to set up anyways

[DMolition]

Well, if you can burn sandbags with flamethrowers as Demon said then this shouldn't be an issue.

[FalseMyrmidon]

You can also actually blow up sandbags with any kind of explosive including force firing with a panzershrek or targetting them with a panzerfaust.

PS when did the Tribes Shoutcast Network start doing RTS games?

[1337n00blar]

this is on lyon, which isn't available in ranked matches for a reason

[Genghis_Kan]

actually i think the barbed wire need to be fixed. I mean if wire is hard cover, then wts the point of a sand bag

[sgb]

Just ran into this today. Was playing a 2v2 on Lorraine and an the other team completely blocked the bottom left of map using sandbags and tank traps. Complete bs. It used to boggle my mind how they could make the game engine so awesome, yet fail so hard at game balance. Then I remembered these are probably the same people who made DoW: WA. Anyone remember 1.41? Yeah, that was great.

[Vicious_CB]

You can blow sandbags with grenades,inf AT weapons. Wasting a nade on something free is ridiculous and waiting for AT weapons to become available may take to long.

Since sbags take a long time to build you should rush it before your opp has time to finish it,then use it as cover against him

[Bridger]

TsN is the Team Sportscast Network now, we broadcast all kinds of stuff, mostly FPS but i'm sort of the RTS arm aside from our WC3 dept :)

[Stefan_D]

As was said, sandbags are easily destroyed in a single nade or any other explosive device. I fail to see the problem, again.

[Kyranzor]

yeah, i think you guys are taking it overboard. a light vehicle (halftrack.. kinda cheap) or a nade/panzerfaust/panzerschreck can get you through sandbags and wire so fast its not funny... just deal with it boys

[FalseMyrmidon]

this is on lyon, which isn't available in ranked matches for a reason
100% true. Horribly balanced map.

[Pak88mm]

lol at sandbagging. takes too long to be effective unless you are playing some noob. Most players use it smarty to set up and MG to cover a vp point fast.

[Bridger]

If you watched the video you'd realize that no vehicals can get to that portion of the map. But obviously the map does suck balance wise, i did like the idea of an island on the side that only infantry can fight on, just wish the map was 2v2.

And what if he tank traps+sandbags off a small choke point? What then smart guy? The fact is they put barbed wire in the game for a reason, and they put sand bags in the game for a reason.

Barbed wire: hold off infantry until an engineer gets there
sand bags: provide cover

Notice none of them have the reason "hold off infantry until light vehicals arrive or spend 40 fuel + (30?) mu to destroy it." It's completely against the spirit of both defenses if sand bags work better at stopping infantry, not to mention completely absurd when compared to reality. Sure gameplay trumps realism, but this doesn't add to gameplay at all. Utilizing sand bags to stop infantry changes the entire balance of that item. It becomes more powerful than it's original design but doesn't cost any more.

It's not like it's difficult to fix, just allow all infantry (or just main infantry + engineers/pioneers) to deconstruct sandbags the same way they are built (same animation) for the same time spent - balance restored.

[STALKER - Arach]

First off - if the units were able to jump over the sandbags and there were any crews behind it - the whole point of it being cover is destroyed because the enemy can just walk past it. Secondly Wire is faster, longer and holds infantry off untill Rockets, vechiles or wire-cutters. The sandbag just needs rockets or Vechiles. The sandbag also takes ALOT longer to make then a wire wall so if someone can make it before the enemy charges its fine by me. I mean as soon as something blows up near it, its gone anyway.

[Guerra]

Just grenade the sandbags.

[blah238]

Not tried it but I've heard flamethrowers take out sandbags too, probably a lot more effectively than grenades as well.

[Major McTiz]

Sandbags are hard as nails, you can sit there flaming them for ages and they lose about 10% of their health. I think it would take several grenades to blow a hole.. which is a complete waste of munitions. Even 1 grenade is a waste of munitions. Your only hope is to get there fast, and try and kill his engies before the sandbags are built - not an easy task since engie vs engie combat will go on for a minute or so anyway (enough time to complete the sandbags).

[guardsman lover]

I get annoyed by sandbags by the fact that units will run from behind the sandbags to the front. What a way to use heavy cover.

[Porta]

surely you can force fire arty/tanks/ Acs onto sandbags to get trid of em????

[Vicious_CB]

Thats not the point NAK. The point is they act just like barbed wire that can't be cut. If you get to the point where you have vehicles and arty you can roll over them anway And why waste arty on something thats free?

[STALKER - Arach]

how about just use a greyhound to shoot it once? It takes longer to make so let it be - it still dies REALLY fast.

[Ucross]

If it takes you more than 1 grenade to take down sandbags then you are really really bad at this game... REALLY bad. It's unrealistic how EASY sandbags are removed via explosive devices.

As for setting up sandbags, not really that big of an issue, takes so much longer that you'd really have to be owning to do it in a key point, and if you do have the time, then it should be legit. The thing is both sides have such an easy path through sand bags. One panzerfaust or one nade or one mortar, or one AT shot, or one m8 shot, or one stug shot, or any tank rolling em over, and all of your work trying to barricade of an area is gone. It's really not that much of a problem.

[Erieztoys]

Having filled a couple thousands sandbags myself in real life as a real life Combat Engineer, a couple of interesting facts.

18 inches of sand will stop most rifle, machine gun bullets and protect you against indirect fire. Build a couple of field bunkers in the backyard and check it out..:) Remember you can destroy the bag but not the sand, and the sand itself provides excellent cover.

Also even if layered up a "mile high" a soldier can climb over them. For game purposes they should be able to climb over them, perhaps in the amount of time it took to create them.

Another point, any obstacle is meant to slow down the enemy not stop them. Whether it be mines, wire, tank traps, tank ditches, etc.. All effective obstacles are covered with infantry, artillery and armor support.

No Engineer would ever expose himself with using wire cutters, that is what banglores are for..:)

Now if I can find the a picture of the real nice stuff called "razor wire" which is 100% better than barbed wire and can really tear up an infantryman I will have to post it.

[Zylon]

have most of you that claim its easy to use a grenade on a sandbag actually tried it?
well i have and they are not like barbed wire where 1 section requires 2 grenades to blow it.

(keep in mind what i say next has been maybe a month ago i tested it. so give me some slack on exact outcome)
2 grenades might only get a sandbag to 75% health or so.. waste of ammo?
next i tried mortars. i expected them to blow a section wide open after a hit or a near hit. where i surprised. very little damage.

have not tried flamers however. :hmmm:

[Demon_Eyes]

Mortars are also an alternative, available pretty quickly.

[Porta]

yeah Vicious, you are right, basically sandbags should be able to be climbed over and wire shouldnt really proved a cover bonus