How much stronger should nebelwerfers be?

[BlueJackal]

So, on a whim, I've built this unit a couple times.

Would making them twice as powerful be sufficient? Would three times be excessive?

I'm presuming they're better than standard mortar teams. If they are, then how much better should they be? They're higher tier, but I build a Sturm Armory far more often than I build a Krieg Barracks... since if I want Grenadiers, I can go Blitzkrieg, and Halftracks/Axis AT-guns/Mortar teams aren't really that necessary. Especially since Mortar Teams are (assuming!) on par with Nebelwerfers and Halftracks/AT-guns certainly have limited use on Axis side. (I'd say the Allied counterparts are more useful, from personal experience, if for no other reason than I can see a reason to build the Allied Motorpool.)

How powerful should they be?

[anonymousMarine]

I'm not sure this should be in Balance Issues.....

but just to answer your question: they should'nt be any stronger than they are now in terms of damage. They just need an an accuracy buff.

[Mutters]

you cant see a reason to buold the allied motorpool? im shocked, i see no reason to build the allied tank depot until i know im winning well (final nail in the coffin type thing).

[damocles]

I think they should keep their power the same - they're pretty damaging when they hit as it is. They just can't hit anything, ever. The two things they need to make them a worthwhile unit are accuracy improvements and a shorter recharge time. I'd even be willing to require them to pay 25-50 MUN per volley if they hit the damn target and didn't have to wait till next July to refire.

Obviously the unit was designed to invoke fear into your opponent, but sadly everyone knows that if you hear the screams of the nebel, you're safest bet is to stand still and they'll miss you for sure. Also, it's a game. Nobody is actually going to get scared by the noise or do anything stupid because of it. As such they need to change role into that of artillery instead of family funtime firework display.

[ZuppoX]

Yeah, why do Axis have these things if there's already a mortar?

But solution to problems: Make it as powerful as Stukas, AND increase their range and accuary(not as much as range).


I think they should keep their power the same - they're pretty damaging when they hit as it is.They don't damage anything - unless the enemy masses infantry at a single point. They don't do anything to vehicles instead - unlike stukas.

ZuppoX

[Noir]

Radical idea I posted before: Since we have the Walking Stuka ANYWAY, why not really buff it and stick it into the defensive tree? Two any-doctrine-buildable mid-late game artillery units seem redundant anyway.

[Virigoth]

There was a good idea while back to make it do little damage, but insta-pin any infantry near the explosion due to the 'fear factor'.


Then it would be en excellent infantry support weapon.

[Tankcommander]

Yeah, as soon as it fired everyone it the target area would hit the deck, allowing the few that would remain to be easily taken care of.

[FalseMyrmidon]

Everyone has a different idea of what exactly should be done with the Nebelwerfer. The one thing everyone agrees on though is that it needs a buff somehow, people just can't agree on in what direction it should go.

[holymoly]

accuracy wont cut it... they need to do more damage and bigger blast radius... it was the most powerful anti-infantry weapon germans had... and right now it just sucks... cuz your rockets need to land on a person to kill it

instead of nebelwerfers, we should be able to upgrade halftracks to Panzerwerfers, which fires the same rockets and has 10 barrels instead of 6... and upgradable inmediatly after kregs barrack for no more than 100 muniton, making the halftrack a useful unit early game against infantry and anti-tank unit late game (walking stuka - tier 4)

[KlavoHunter]

instead of nebelwerfers, we should be able to upgrade halftracks to Panzerwerfers, which fires the same rockets and has 10 barrels instead of 6... and upgradable inmediatly after kregs barrack for no more than 100 muniton, making the halftrack a useful unit early game against infantry and anti-tank unit late game (walking stuka - tier 4)

What the christ?

That's basically what the "Walking Stuka" *IS*. A n upgraded halftrack firing artillery rockets.

[holymoly]

first of all, panzerwerfer is a nebelwerfer on a halftrack, and nebelwerfer is anti infantry period. Stuka zu Fuss Walking stuka is a completely different thing... they fire different rockets and does different things... google it...

[Exotus]

If you increase the accuracy and damage, make it more expensive...or requires ammo for shooting...

If you make it as good as the stuka, what would be the point? Then axis had a huge advantage.

[holymoly]

you bomb tanks with stukas... you bomb infantry with nebels... the so called "huge advantage" from stuka isnt cheap... 25 fuel for kregs, 20 for HT, 150 muniton to upgrade and i think it requires tier 4... mean while allied get calliopies and bomb all your infantry AND tanks for 125...
NOT an option in 1v1...

All im saying is nebel needs to be made in to a better good anti infantry arty (its 300+MP and tier 3 forgods sake...) and stuka will remain a VERY good anti armor arty and good vs infantry...

[Demonic Spoon]

Increasing it's accuracy/damage would just make it a Stuka clone. You would have two units that serve basically the same purpose. Sounds redundant to me.


I prefer the historically accurate and more useful approach. Increase the Nebl's damage MASSIVELY against soft targets (More powerful than a 105mm howitzer shot), but DECREASE it's accuracy a LOT.

It would be used like it was in the war: as a weapon of terror. Due to the inaccuracy, it wasn't really going to kill that many troops, but damn if it's not intimidating.

[fenwe]

This isn't real life. There is no sense in using a weapon that doesn't kill anything. Even if the enemy is pinned, if they out numbered yo before, they still will. Now will that allow you to redeploy? Maybe, but then they just retreat and hit you from a different area. Having a tier three that may or may not kill anything wont be built because both the AC and STuG are good at what they do. Why build something that "sounds" deadly when you can build something that actually is?

[PrinceMyshkin]

I prefer the historically accurate and more useful approach. Increase the Nebl's damage MASSIVELY against soft targets (More powerful than a 105mm howitzer shot), but DECREASE it's accuracy a LOT.

This is also what should happen with Calliope's rocket launcher too. It's ridiculously effective vs hard targets.

[Demonic Spoon]

This isn't real life. There is no sense in using a weapon that doesn't kill anything. Even if the enemy is pinned, if they out numbered yo before, they still will. Now will that allow you to redeploy? Maybe, but then they just retreat and hit you from a different area. Having a tier three that may or may not kill anything wont be built because both the AC and STuG are good at what they do. Why build something that "sounds" deadly when you can build something that actually is?

Who said it wouldn't kill anything?

[Demon_Eyes]

Artillery already has a pretty good supression effect and usually forces a retreat anyways, I would just like the nebelwurfer to fire 2 more projectiles per volley and a change to the accuracy modifier for range so that it is a little less of a variance at longer distances.

[Falaris]

The nebelwerfer's advantages as I see it is - it's a tier earlier, it's cheaper, and it's got longer range than the half-truck-zu-fuss. It takes *no* fuel, and *no* ammunition, while the halftrack thingy takes both.

The half track thingy is very, very much more powerful, though, more mobile, and more resistanat to infantry, all of which makes it a much better unit.

The fire rate is the same. The perceived accuracy advantage of the halftrack *might* be just because of its shorter max range, although I'll readily buy that it's not.

Are they balanced... sort of kinda like. In fact, depending on doctrine, stukazufuss is MUCH better, or roughly equal, but never worse.

[0mar]

Nebels aren't balanced. They are completely worthless. The Walking Stuka comes in battlephase, which most good players never go to because of the ineffective units.

[BlueJackal]

you cant see a reason to buold the allied motorpool? im shocked, i see no reason to build the allied tank depot until i know im winning well (final nail in the coffin type thing).

I said, I can see a reason to build the Allied Motorpool. I said I cannot see a reason to build the Krieg Barracks... unless you like Mortars, but snipers can typically do the trick.

But some interesting suggestions. Pinning infantry nearby might be a good idea... faster recharge, too.

[Sephlock]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=oA80w9sxTzY

That much more powerful.

[PrinceMyshkin]

I have written an entire essay before to prove that: Nebel >> Calliope's rocket launcher.

But this game is not about history.

Hence, I would suggest Calliope gets its AT effect tonned down and Nebel gets buffed a bit.

PS: I am not talking about their cost now, only their combat effectiveness. Calliope's cost needs definitely to be modified.

[Unlikely]

Nice video

[BlackLabel]

I dont build nebels/stucka zu fuss anymore. They are way to expensive. The Calliope barrage shall cost more i agree on that one.

[Sephlock]

If nothing else, they should use a more authentic sound. I'd start building them just for that ;).

[Hellraiser]

The main problem is the fact that it costs 385 manpower, and it does barely any damage because:

1)it's highly inaccurate

2)it has a long fire-boom time which makes it useless against mobile targets that don't sit in one place

3)it makes a noise which warns the enemy player long before even one round hits the ground giving him enough time to retreat or spread out his troops

It's also about as mobile as an AT gun but those at least can kill some troops if they're charging them head on while the nebel crew can make mean faces to try to scare the allied infantry which will kill it in 10 seconds. It's a sitting duck which makes a lot of noise but little damage for 385 manpower, the only good thing about it is the fact that it only costs manpower.

It's just beter to get a stuka zu fuss if you need arty and firestorm isn't enough(or if you're blitz). Sure the initial costs of tier4+kriegs+halftrack+upgrade are high but for all that you get mobile arty unit which can reinforce soldiers and actually does damage, in groups of 2 they're devastating and they have a relatively short cooldown too. Oh and while it can't fight back if the enemy gets near you can at least run away because it's quite fast(and perfect for hit and run).

EDIT: Bah I forgot about adding some suggestion on making the nebel usefull.

1)Cut it's cost by 65 manpower
2)Decrease it's build time to 30 seconds
3)Make it slightly more acurate by decreasing the size of the max target areaby 20%
4)Make the round firing-round exploding time shorter currently it's as if the damn thing tried to beat space ship one's altitude record before hitting the target.

[Victrix Legio]

I tested nebels back in open beta in an attempt to find some useful purpose for them and to see if veterancy made any difference as to their effectiveness; the conclusion I reached was they they have none and it doesn't. I vote that it be made a dedicated soft-target killer, devastating to infantry and light vehicles but largely ineffectual against heavy armor and structures unless it scores direct hits. To that end, it will need its blast radius expanded somewhat and its damage against the aforementioned target types increased by a significant amount; scatter could actually remain the same, though I agree that target time needs to be shortened, as the Allied player gets enough of a heads-up as it is with that distinctive screeching noise. I think if the above changes are implemented, nebels might actually see some use, and they would fill a different niche than stukas: dispersed, long-range AI and ALV firepower versus concentrated, short-range AE firepower.

[PrinceMyshkin]

I vote that it be made a dedicated soft-target killer

I agree. That's what Calliope rocket launcher should be as well. Nerf their unexplainable, overpowered and inbalanced hard-target effectiveness.

[Thoragoros]

The primary problem with nebels, I think, is that when they do hit they're payload is ludicrously small, like the Paris Gun in WWI, which was a long range cannon that fired on Paris from behind German trenches, it was hitting Paris, but had almost the same payload as standard Artillery, making it's effects somewhat moot.

The same applies in this game to nebels, they are long range, and can fire on distant targets with little if any risk to itself, but when it hits, it doesnt really damage anything, save massed infantry.

[Tjorriemorrie]

If you increase the accuracy and damage, make it more expensive...or requires ammo for shooting...

If you make it as good as the stuka, what would be the point? Then axis had a huge advantage. Nah, the walking stuka should be better against AC and the werfer against inf.


There was a good idea while back to make it do little damage, but insta-pin any infantry near the explosion due to the 'fear factor'.


Then it would be en excellent infantry support weapon.This would be excellent! Pinning the spam! don't need to necessarily kill/damage them, just pin them for a while! And it can protect your tanks against the stickys...At least it would have a purpose then...


And ofcourse, nerf the calliope.

[evotech]

thats actually pretty fucking brilliant

[Fonic]

Originally Posted by Virigoth

There was a good idea while back to make it do little damage, but insta-pin any infantry near the explosion due to the 'fear factor'.


Then it would be en excellent infantry support weapon.
I was playing the campaign yesterday on hill 192 and noticed that when the axis were throwing a firestorm on my infantry, they were getting pinned with the first explosion and then staying there to get obliterated. I'm not sure if this is specific to Firestorm or works that way for all artillery (if it does I haven't noticed) but something like that for the Nebelwefer would be good.

[damocles]

Firestorm doesn't usually pin on the first shot, what it does is scatter them. Then secondary shots can surpress and make it hard for them to crawl away.

[Sturmhaubitze]

So I did some tests last night on the Nebelwerfer, side-by-side with a Mortar Team and a Walking Stuka Halftrack.

First off, keep in mind the following:
Tier 2 - Mortar Team (270 MP, 3 pop cap)
Tier 3 - Nebelwerfer (385 MP, 5 pop cap)
Tier 4 - Walking Stuka Hafltrack (220 MP, 20 Fuel, 150 Munitions)

Range
Nebelwerfer - Best
Walking Stuka Halftrack - Second best
Mortar Team - Worst

Overall Rate of Fire (Including recharge time)
Mortar Team - Best (When using Barrage)
Nebelwerfer and Walking Stuka Halftrack - Worst

Accuracy
Mortar Team - Best
Walking Stuka Halftrack and Nebelwerfer - Worst

I didn't find the Nebelwerfer to be less accurate than the Walking Stuka rockets, but the problem is that they have the tendency to hug the outer radius of the targetting circle. If the targetting circle is placed in the fog of war, the rockets will almost always land outside the targetting circle and leave targets inside the circle untouched or barely damaged. If you want a troublesome 57mm gun crew taken out, a single Nebelwerfer will not do the job at all. Neither will a second or third Nebelwerfer consistently kill a 57mm gun crew. Four Nebelwerfers will usually work, but four Nebelwerfers eats up 20 pop cap and 1540 MP, so it's not very efficient.

One or two Walking Stuka halftracks will consistently kill a 57mm gun crew, though they will need to be closer than the Nebelwerfer team. This is mostly due to the increased damage and blast radius of their rockets, and also because there's a higher chance of a rocket landing close to the center of the targetting circle.

One mortar team will consistently kill a 57mm gun crew when using Barrage. The mortar shells don't seem to deviate a noticeable amount when firing on targets in the fog of war, and the steady rate of fire allows you to compensate if they change positions. The mortar team needs to be much closer, but can still fire from outside of the 57mm gun crew's range and line of sight. 270 MP and 3 pop cap being used to eliminate a 310 MP and 3 pop cap unit is efficient.

Nebelwerfers and Mortars do almost no damage to tanks, and only do moderate damage to light vehicles. Walking Stuka rockets can do decent damage to tanks and will severely or fatally damage light vehicles.

Overall:
Mortars are great for eliminating infantry and weapon crews, and can do so cheaply, quickly and with only a small investment in pop cap. They will usually recoup their cost before dying, often with just one or two quick barrages. Mortar team crews can be reinforced like normal infantry, and can be produced at forward HQs, so you can consistently move and maintain them on the frontlines.

Walking Stuka Halftracks are good for mobile and immediate artillery support on buildings, vehicles, and concentrations of infantry. They are also good for reinforcing troops nearby. They are best when combined with a mobile combined arms force of tanks and infantry, as they can support the tanks and reinforce the troops. They are fast and have virtually no set-up time, and can be repaired quickly.

Nebelwerfers are only good against infantry when massed in groups of four or more, and when they can use their superior range to good effect. Nebelwerfers at medium range are exceedingly vulnerable as they cannot retreat like mortars or drive off like halftracks, and once moving they cannot jog as fast as mortars. In a fast-paced game where the frontlines change often, Nebelwerfers will often spend more time repositioning than firing, and they will be even more vulnerable. The Nebelwerfer will often not recoup its costs until it has fired half a dozen barrages. You can only make Nebelwerfers at the Sturm Armory, so it often takes a while for the crew to reach a good firing position once produced. The crew cannot be reinforced at all.

Suggestions
Nebelwerfer is out-performed by the Mortar Team at its main job: killing infantry. Instead of improving the Nebelwerfer's damage and/or blast radius to make it a better infantry killing machine, it should be put into its own niche role of causing terror and disrupting the enemy, moreso than inflicting casualties. Infantry in the targetted area should become suppressed when the rockets are incoming, and potentially pinned once they start landing. If enough rockets land nearby, they might even retreat. Nebelwerfers should probably have their pop cap reduced by 1, and their MP cost lowered by 10% - 20%, to make them a more attractive option. They are clumsy and unwieldly, but with suitable advantages that no other artillery has (Inflicting terror due to the distinctive screaming sound) and a cost reduction, they'll be viable and useful.

[Vicious_CB]

NICE JOB!

We all knew how useless the nebels were,but now even more so with a comparison.

I agree that nebels should have some kind of terror ability. Increasing their acc or damage would make it mirror the walkingstuka then the walkingstuka would still be chosen because of its mobility and reinforcement abilities

[PrinceMyshkin]

Well done. Thank you for letting us know. :)

Carry on the good posts!

Unfortuantely for axis, mortars teams and walking stukas come from krieg barracks, which is not a building that can succesfully fit in their 1v1 strategy...

[AntiCommie]

Thats the only reason I build Nebels, they come from Sturm armory and can usually kill a MG nest in a few salvos. I also use them to hit high fuel/ammo points if no other targets are available, since I can usually kill the OP on it. Most games I build 1 or none though.

[evotech]

i used them once as axis, but thats just because i have no clue how to play axis

i still think some upped dammage and pinning effect would buff them enough

[Sturmhaubitze]

Just to distill the long post I made into a "Here's what I think should be done" suggestion, here's my breakdown of things to change:

1. It would be nice if you could reinforce a Nebelwerfer crew. It would improve their survivability only a little bit, considering that they die fairly quickly once engaged by infantry and anti-infantry vehicles, but it's rather annoying to have a 2 of 3 Nebelwerfer crew running around. Unfortunately you can't reinforce AT gun crews either, so to change Nebelwerfer crew reinforcement would pretty much necessitate doing the same for AT gun crews.

2. Being able to built at a forward HQ might help a lot. Right now I often skip them because it takes forever to get them to where I need them. My Sturm Armory is all the way back at my base, but the fighting is a 1-2 minute trip away for the Nebelwerfer crew. AT guns can be made at forward HQs, so this isn't entirely without precedent.

3. Making them slightly cheaper would make them easier to swallow as an investment. All your built units are investments to some degree, investments that you hope will pay off by hurting your opponent more than they cost to make. At their current cost they should be more effective than a mortar crew, but they're only marginally so in specific circumstances.

4. It would be great if they fulfilled a slightly different role than mortars and walking stuka rockets. In any game where unit X is just like unit Y except better, you tend to see unit X as a stop-gap measure at best until you get unit Y. Or you might find a strategy that involves living without unit X and just skipping ahead to unit Y. If the Nebelwerfer had a unique ability (Like inflicting terror) that the other mobile artillery options did not have, then it would make your choices have meaning. You could even decide to have both a Nebelwerfer and a mortar crew or walking stuka halftrack, since they have their own nuances and aren't exactly the same in purpose. If the only difference between two choices is numerical, and these are numbers that are relevant to both choices, then you will make the choice that has the best numbers. This then ceases to become a choice, and the strategies and build orders people make will all be the same. I find that incredibly dull.

[Demonic Spoon]

Unfortuantely for axis, mortars teams and walking stukas come from krieg barracks, which is not a building that can succesfully fit in their 1v1 strategy...

It fits in my strategy.

[damocles]

I was watching someone else's replay yesterday and decided to take this screenie to demonstrate the "awesome power" of the nebelwerfer. You can see how close it hit to the mortar crew, an what little damage to it did to them. You can also see that not one other crater is in shot because every other shot was so wide.

http://www.sayagain.co.uk/b3tapix/images/relic00000.jpg

Nebels really need to do something

[Fought]

So, on a whim, I've built this unit a couple times.

Would making them twice as powerful be sufficient? Would three times be excessive?

I'm presuming they're better than standard mortar teams. If they are, then how much better should they be? They're higher tier, but I build a Sturm Armory far more often than I build a Krieg Barracks... since if I want Grenadiers, I can go Blitzkrieg, and Halftracks/Axis AT-guns/Mortar teams aren't really that necessary. Especially since Mortar Teams are (assuming!) on par with Nebelwerfers and Halftracks/AT-guns certainly have limited use on Axis side. (I'd say the Allied counterparts are more useful, from personal experience, if for no other reason than I can see a reason to build the Allied Motorpool.)

How powerful should they be?
More extremely powerful!! The 'screaming' missiles should actually be scary as they were back in WW2. Now it is just a fortunate sign that your opponent is dumb enough to spend the MP on it.

[Thoragoros]

How could "Scarriness" fit within this game? Pinning? But if you firing into the fog of war, how do you know for certain if there is anything in that area to pin? Furthermore, is it worth the cost of the nebel, if all it can do is pin?

[Sephlock]

This is what they SHOULD be like:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=oA80w9sxTzY

And this is what they are currently like ingame:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=pxEDGp1vpCY

[tuffy!]

falaris:


half-truck-zu-fuss

hahaha that must be the funniest thing i've read in the forums so far!! it's like half a truck on foot.

No offense, I often mistype things myself, but i just thought it was very funny nonetheless.

Anyway, about nebels...I'm really disappointed they aren't going to buff it in the patch 1.3. In my opinion their anti-infantry damage should be increased, and their accuracy improved a little.

[alphamale]

PsAgreed, accurate nebel scream + increased soft target damage / splash radius + pinning/suppressing effect would be nice and actually make it perhaps even used. Routing the enemy is way too powerful imo, but pin or suppression would do nicely. Even with these changes the cost is perhaps a bit prohibitive unless it really does a number on infantry.

The panzerwerfer idea is nice too, but new units don't really fix the nebelwerfer :)

Being able to tow AT/nebels et al with halftracks (zu fuss!) would be very nice indeed -- though that's probably not going to happen.

[Crazy Ivan]

I think the best way that the NebelWerfer could be buffed would be to leave the accuracy and range as is but increase the damage/Area of Effect that the shells do as well as slightly lower the cost of it and add an instant Supress/pin effect on Infantry in the area of fire.
This way you would have a decent yet still costly unit that can tear infantry a new one without becoming a German Calliopee tank without the MUN cost.

[damocles]

The nebel really does need vast, vast, vast improvements to it's anti infantry abilities. I think it was on this replay:

http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=118041

A nebel rocket lands right in the middle of a unit of rifles. And I mean right in the middle. They scattered, but not one soldier died. Not one!. The unit itself lost only about 15% of total health. From a direct rocket strike! What the hell is that all about?

So Nebels are:

Wildly innacurate
Slow to reload
extremely vulnerable
pathetic against armor
pathetic against infantry

What the hell purpose do these units serve?

[AnatolyChekov]

it definately needs a buff against soft targets, including gun crews.

[tuffy!]

I'm sick of the current nebel.
Watching the replay just makes me disappointed that the axis get such a crappy piece of sh*t.

The nebel has the potential to be a cool fear inducing weapon...

[Pak88mm]

i never make em unless im winning by a ton and even then lol ill make an officer

[Trenchgun]

Rather than buff their accuracy, I'd cut their cooldown time in half - Fitting with rockets that you trade up accuracy for volume of fire.

[STALKER - Arach]

I got a replay where i use 4 nebel squads that are highly defended to anhillate an allied base. the artillery itself is fine - but you need atleast 3 nebels to make it useful vs anything. First off i had no problems anhillating base structures with the nebelwafier and with 4 firing all at one place it totally covered the radius i wanted - So plainly use nebel wafiers in teams of 3 or more and they are fine - Wouldn't hurt if they moved faster however.

[Virigoth]

You know that 3 nebels is like 1000 man power right? Sitting in a static position. You could for example have 4 pumas instead, or 3 stugs assuming fuel is around.

[Naru]

The nebelwerfer is easily fixed. All they have to do is:

...lower the the cost to 300.
...allow veterancy upgrades to increase accuracy slightly.

This will make the nebelwerfer a viable weapn system while not replacing the Mortar or the walking stukkas. An addtional change might be to give the rockets a chance to catch buildings on fire, giving the nebelwerfer a unique roll that has strategic value.

[Rithrin]

I did some tests with a friend, and with 3 to 4 Nebelwefers firing at mid range on a building, it does lots of damage to it.

[KlavoHunter]

I did some tests with a friend, and with 3 to 4 Nebelwefers firing at mid range on a building, it does lots of damage to it.

I did some unconsensual tests with an opponant, and with 1 Howitzer firing at extreme range on a building, it does lots of damage to it.

[STALKER - Arach]

@KlavoHunter, For 450 mp and 50 fuel its bound to be awsomely powerful.

@Virigoth, for 1000 MP it can anhillate damage big part of the field - make a crater defensive for your pushing infantry, supress any infantry it hits and also will massively damage anything in a building , or even buildings themself. What maps the nebel so amazingly useful (Even though people are stupid and don't do this often) is that it can MOVE after firing, and execute the exact same strike almost anywhere on the map.

@Naru, i agree about the VET upgrade idea you have. It'd be nice to see the nebel grow 10% more accurate per vet lvl for a max of 30% more accurate. Which all in all would make it more useful on the battlefield... also increasing it ranges by 5% per vet would make it more frequently used and negate having to down the MP to 300. Think it'd work? I sure do :P.

[1337n00blar]

i agree to a certain extent with naru, except maybe make it cost even less than 300 - and btw to people who try to argue that a pack of several of them are useful, you try doing that in a competitive game and see how it goes

[Pie-Eater]

i havent read all the posts so sorry if i am repeating myself, but the nebel ws originally a smoke launcher right? why not just make it a smoke launcher! i think that would be cool and open up a whole range of tactics (i know mortars can do that but im talking about a serious smoke launcher here) :)

[Tankcommander]

Well, nebelwerfer means smoke launcher, but I think that it was to deceive the allies, not actually a smoke launcher.

[Sn1tch]

Probably been posted a fair few times.

- Make is so it instantly pins and you can't retreat while getting shot at
- Increase Damage
- Increase amount of rockets shot.
- I haven't used Nebelwerfers but apparently it's very inaccurate, for putting an instant pin, I believe it SHOULD stay inaccurate or further downgrade it's accuracy.

I know I will build 1 or 2 of these if they got buffed.

[KDR_11k]

I think the only change it needs is a severe buff to its area of effect. Maybe 50% more than the Stuka's missiles at the current level of damage (or maybe an increase so it does about 60% damage to every man in its radius).

The other approach would be to severely increase the number of missiles fired (e.g. to 15) since people are saying that multiple foggies are useful but in numbers that are completely impractical for any situation. Doubling its missile count would cut the number of 'werfers for base raping to 2 instead of 4 and probably give it a decent effect against fortified positions.

Only one of these should be done though since both would probably overbuff the thing.

[Kaikai]

woohoo, straight from the horses mouth, on the tales of heroes 9 podcast thing,
nebs will get their dynamic changed entirly in the patch after the upcoming!
cool eh? :D

[Pie-Eater]

in the patch afre the upcoming? you mean the patch after this patch? that could be decades away!

[Victrix Legio]

At this rate, you could be right. It must have been some monumental set of bugs to hold up release for this long.