[DC 1.11]Chaos Issues [Archive] - Page 4

SirNick

30th Jan 07, 11:52 PM

Jaimas

31st Jan 07, 12:36 AM

On closer inspection, I gotta agree with SirNick. Issue of course being that if we reduce the effectiveness of the Plasma too drastically, it will simply not be used at all and we'll be back at the same retarded mechanic we had in WA, where the only thing we had was Heavy Bolters.

Yeah, that was fun. :rolleyes:
Especially after having actual choices in DoW.

Don't get me wrong - it needs fixing - but you need to be careful by how much it gets nerfed, and to where it gets changed.

Earthworm

31st Jan 07, 1:08 AM

Don't get me wrong - it needs fixing - but you need to be careful by how much it gets nerfed, and to where it gets changed.

How about a range nerf then?Will solve everything I guess....but I still think the plasma is fine and can do without any change.This ofcourse is from an SM perspective.About other races..well....the range nerf?

SubakuGaara

31st Jan 07, 1:24 AM

sir nick,
1)5SM plasma do 20 DPS less than CSM plasma. If you have 5 SM plasma guys shooting at 4 CSM plasma guys, the SM plasma guys may win because of the health and morale and because of a steadier DPS drop as each member dies. Bezerk fury may even things up though so I can't say for sure. Still, on paper the difference between those 2 squads is only 20 DPS

2)SM plasma costs the same as CSM plasma. 5 extra power thats all.

3)Sounds like you have a problem with the chaos having an entire cloaked army. Detector units have been designed to be fragile for most cases. If you don't have detection even with SM heavy bolters you will get shot up fast. Its not the plasmas fault. The solution is simple. Increase the reset time on the chaos infiltrate after detection. TRUST ME, that will solve 90 percent of the complaint. In essence, it will make sure that detectors who die in battle don't die in vain.

4)There is no HB abuse in tier 1 and 2. This absence of abuse is the best evidence that chaos plasma is too strong. The slightly weaker HB isn't abused in the lower tiers where it'd be easiest to abuse it. How then can the tier 3 plasma be abusive when it is going up against much tougher infantry and dealing only slightly more damage? The logic doesn't follow. How can the plasma be overly abusive to the tougher tier 3 infantry, when the HB which is pretty close to the plasma isn't overly abusive to the powder puffs in tier 1 and tier 2?

5)DPS/cost is consistent. Two reaper squads equal the DPS and the cost of one full plasma squad.

6)There's not a lot of wiggle room

SM plasma squad=309 DPS
CSM plasma squad=319 DPS (minus the two extra CSM guys)
You can only knock off 20 DPS for the entire squad before the tier 3 plasma performs lower than tier 2 SM plasma. Its bad enough the SMs are tougher, have more HP, and have a better assortment of supporting vehicles. If anything, this fact makes the SM plasma the abusive ones. Its bad enough a full squad matches the CSM plasma squad closely. Then SM has to have the better walker, the better predator, as well as the assortment of daemon hardcounters too?

So prove to me how the SM plasma squad isn't abusive and yet the CSM plasma is?

Points 3,4,5, and 6 are my reasons why its fine just the way it is. If anything, CSM plasma underperforms. Its tier 3, my men are fragile compared to others, and my men don't have good vehicle support to assist. Typically, if I'm chaos and I have to pullout plasma in a 1v1 match, I'll probably lose the game because of that fact.

Anyway, my suggestion for the CSM plasma is this. We don't need it. It does 10 percent more damage to heavy infantry than the Hb, but has lower range. Chaos needs AV support badly. Cut the DPS to infantry to about the 50s. Cut the DPS to the heavy infantry to about the mid 30s. Boost the DPS to the vehicle and building classes to about 25. Cut plasma range to 25.

I do realize there are other races to consider, but I think it works well.

Effect:
1)Chaos has a choice. AV weapon or AI weapon
2)Restores HB to tier 3 prominence
3)Supports chaos' weak AV platform.

Cyberbob

31st Jan 07, 1:53 AM

Still, on paper the difference between those 2 squads is only 20 DPS

We all know that what looks good on paper is in no way guaranteed to perform with similar mettle on the battlefield.

farseer_derek

31st Jan 07, 2:18 AM

bezerker fury makes that 20dps into alot more.....something like 169.5dps this is average i couldn't be screwed doing it by 40% so i did it by 50% ^^ so its actually something like 140dps but thats still huge. also thats not a fully reinforced squad.

Thing iswhy should CSM plasma be better than SM plasma? its infiltrated and has as longer range as soppoused long range specialtists (dark reapers we all know they aern't though ^^)

SubakuGaara

31st Jan 07, 10:03 AM

cyber bob,
precisely. 5 man SM squad will win due to
1)more health
2) morale rally
3) you can run away when berzerk fury is activated
4) --possibly better vehicle support--

farseer derek,
the DPS for a 9 man SM plasma squad and the DPS for a 11 man CSM plasma squad differ by about 30 DPS (309 I believe for the SM squad and 340 for the CSM squad. I'm including the ASP champ and the seargent). However, if you remove the two extra CSM squad members to compare 9 man vs 9 man, the difference is still only 20 dps.

Dark reaper range is the same as csm plasma.

Berzerk fury boosts all weapons by 40 percent. Just like rally restores a squads morale its a special ability of the troops. Keep in mind that chaos infantry essentially remain the same through the entire game. They gain purge the weak and that is 100+ hp if they asp champ is there. Even at 475 hp from purge of the weak, they are very very weak, especailly in tier 3. For example, dark reapers start the game with 450 HP each and end up with 597. Most infantry troops in tier 3 completely outclass them in terms of hp and morale and can match them in fire power when cost is compared. Again, proof is the SM squad. A full Sm plasma squad gives out only 20 DPS less than a full CSM plasma squad. A full dark reaper squad gives out a little over half the DPS of a full CSM plasma squad and costs a little less than half. For those who don't understand that, I'm saying buying two full dark reaper squads will put out more damage than buying one full plasma squad and will cost less (as well has have significantly more HP and morale).

So where is the imbalance?
CSMs are weak but hit hard. They lose DPS in bunches as the plasma holders contribute the bulk of the DPS. Head on fire fights aren't their forte; even with plasma they will lose.

If you have a problem with cloaking, thats understandable, but understand without detection you will get shot up, regardless of weapon.

How can the plasma be overly abusive to the tougher tier 3 infantry, when the HB which is pretty close to the plasma isn't overly abusive to the powder puffs in tier 1 and tier 2?

Hirmetrium

31st Jan 07, 11:32 AM

hey nick, you got any suggestions for plasma? since right now all I'm hearing is numbers, and I do like some of your balance suggestions :P

SirNick

31st Jan 07, 11:44 AM

@Hirm: My suggestions were lost back in page 46. I've just been fighting off others's numbers since then. Here's the shortened form, and cut-and-pasted post is in spoiler.

1) Chaos HB DPS after Heavy Weapons dropped to ~42. Identical to WA.
2) Chaos Plasma Gun DPS dropped to similar (but perhaps slightly higher, i.e. 45-odd) DPS.
3) Chaos Plasma Guns require Armory.

Lower HB DPS justifies lower Plasma DPS. This brings down CSM HWs to just barely below SM Target Finders levels, competitive on their own still. Being invisible, though, and having Berzerk Fury negate the problem of slightly lower DPS than SM equivalents.

Voila!

******

Thing about CSM Heavy Bolters is I'm pretty sure that the massive damage they do now (56 DPS per Bolter after research) is unintended.

The code in 1.5 WA's max weapons research did have the "damage x2" entry for CSM HBs, but the in-game cap on any damage modifier being 1.5x max prevented such a drastic damage increase. Before the research, they were 28 DPS, a bit less than Tac Marine HBs, but after the research they were 42 DPS, better than Vanilla Tac Marine HBs. Berzerk Fury brought up DPS to 50-odd, which was about par with Tac Marine HBs after Bionics.

Even in Winter Assault, thanks to those new Heavy Bolters, CSM were really competitive even in Tier 3 if ferried around in Rhinos and with usage of Smokes / Berzerk Fury. They sure as heck weren't Obliterators or PSMs, but they did put the hurt out.

56 DPS in Tier 1 for a CSM Heavy Bolter, much less the "angry bonus" DPS, is a bit much for me. A 42 DPS Heavy Bolter, with Berzerk Fury as needed, is perfectly fine in a Dark Crusade world, ESPECIALLY with the new infiltration system where they can fire when cloaked. This reduction would make it reasonable for Plasma to actually be dropped down to reasonable DPS (i.e. NOT 70 DPS base) and not be eclipsed by HBs with 5 more range than them.

Also, for the love of all that's good, CSM Plasma Guns need to require an Armory. They don't right now. This means that a Chaos Player can make it all the way to T4 without an armory and not miss a darn thing besides Purge the Weak and two extra Plasma Guns. Even then, there's no way to stop Plasma Gun production whatsoever, unlike Tactical Space Marine Heavy Weapons.
******

Oh, and @Dark Reaper / CSM comparison: The example keeps coming up that one uses a full CSM squad as a reference point. Practically, this just isn't so. Most likely for max Plasma effectiveness you'll have maybe 5 CSMs and the AC, then with 4 Plasma Guns. That's 475/60 for 350+ DPS base versus 500/30 for 175 DPS max to heavy_med, and a heck of a lot less than that to heavy_high. Reapers = Not good investment compared to plasma.

GRIM Ripper

31st Jan 07, 12:15 PM

remind me again WHY chaos even needs T3 plasma? theyve got 2 good elites like everyone else in T3 and awesome T1(haha, what a joke)/T2 HBs. they scale into T2 to almost tac level HPs with purge the weak (squad durability with champ ends up being more), get a speed/melee bonus with furious charge (20% extra speed is actually HUGE), and still get infiltrate (one second of focus fire kills almost any detector.... and with plasma's 40dps vs commanders even orks and eldar dont stand a chance vs infiltrated mass).

Blakey85

31st Jan 07, 12:20 PM

-_- That's why we're lowering the damge kuncklehead.

ImmortalChaos

31st Jan 07, 12:35 PM

IMO CSM should just get their HWs back, mirroring SM ones closely. I dont give a damn for diversity of units, I want diversity of CSM. :)

SubakuGaara

31st Jan 07, 12:43 PM

why lower HB dps? is it abusive as it is?

How about the fact that chaos infantry have low hp compared to others?

We know chaos has a weak av platform. Why not have the plasma address that, instead of being another infantry killer? Everything in chaos kills infantry already

Hirmetrium

31st Jan 07, 1:56 PM

SubakuGaara, i have tested HB - in tier 1 their absolutely fucking silly in team games. in 1v1's on large maps, you effectively have tier 2 troops at the start using the research.

HB shouldn't be a tier 1 weapon - they should be tier 2, so that their not nerfed to that level(tbh, HW are not needed in tier 1 vs the normal bolter, which is fairly respectable.

Slyfe

31st Jan 07, 2:12 PM

of course that does kinda leave you without options as chaos against races like tau or eldar(once DR tier 1 gets fixed)..without massing raptors (never a good idea in my opinion) how would you as chaos combat superior range/firepower and in eldars case mobility as well.

SubakuGaara

31st Jan 07, 2:23 PM

dude I've tested hb in about 170 1v1 games. Its not so easy. First to get it you have to shell out big bucks for the armory and the hb upgrade. You will get locked into tier 1. And you have to equip it when you don't have cloaking. its fairly easy to handle, especially with minor harassment. trust me on this. I know what I'm talking about. I'm not just saying that to be cocky. I actually know what I'm talking about here. It is difficult to mass enough HBs to be effective; they're not effective anymore. if you want a replay I can show you a particalarly good one. its also a great replay for those who think the burna bomb is imbalanced. You will laugh your ass off. If you want to see it I can email it you. Unfortunately, I don't use the game replay sites enough to where they let me post them, but I can send it to someone who can them post it someplace. its really quite funny.

SirNick

31st Jan 07, 2:31 PM

I think that T1 Heavy Bolters are okay for Chaos. As mentioned, they're a long-ranged option versus long-ranged T1 armies.

T1 Heavy Weapons Research giving Chaos super duper DPS is not okay, though.

Reducing the DPS done by HBs after the research to 42 DPS from the current 56 DPS is decent enough, I think, to mitigate the high costs in T1 for anything past two HBs.

Plus, HW upgrade is necessary in T1 for Cultists if you decide to go grenades or something.

I think the DPS reduction should be okay.

@SubakuGaara: Go read the Sticky'd Thread in the Replay Forum. (http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=61440)

Hirmetrium

31st Jan 07, 2:49 PM

good call nick. I suppose thats a good change :P

ImmortalChaos

31st Jan 07, 2:55 PM

I would be fine with CSM HBs being better so long as they couldnt cloak.

tygereye

31st Jan 07, 3:45 PM

Reducing the DPS done by HBs after the research to 42 DPS from the current 56 DPS is decent enough, I think, to mitigate the high costs in T1 for anything past two HBs.

A bit too much nerf I would say Sir Nick. Make CSM upgraded HB = SM upgraded HB and they will be fine. Don't forget that CSM have only 4 HBs by squad when SM have 5. So to compensate CSM can cloack in T2.

Blakey85

31st Jan 07, 3:50 PM

Yeah cause cause cloack equels those lowly damge points 1 HB does. I don't agree with the plasma buff...but HB should be weaker then SM ones,but not THAT much.

War-Reborn

31st Jan 07, 4:02 PM

Guys. CSM Plasma does not have low range. It's 30 range.

It has more range than Warp Spiders, Necron Warriors, Guardsmen / Kasrkin Plasma, Hero / Sergeant ranged, Terminator Storm Bolters,

It is equal in range to SM Plasma, Dark Reapers, and Obliterators.

Yes, it is 5 less range than either a Heavy Bolter, a Flash Git, or Wartrukks and the like. Yes, T2 Fire Warriors and Kauyon Fire Warriors especially outrange Plasma.

30 range is also a heck of a lot more than any melee unit.

Just about everything else though it matches just fine in Tier 3. And even then, it's less of a problem because of three fun things.

1) They're invisible.
2) Detectors only detect out to range 30, the same as a Plasma Gun.
3) Rhinos are the best way to travel.

If there's a problem getting in cloaked, then there's Rhinos + Smokes. They're good ideas anyways, but the point remains that closing to the same decent range everyone else shoots at is not a hard task for CSM. Even Tau, Pathfinders only detect to range 30 despite LoS of 50.

Look. Folks keep bringing up SM Plasma. It's very simple - SM Plasma costs more, you need more of them, they're not invisible, and 5 of them barely match 4 CSM Plasma Guns -- and that's before even factoring in the Berzerk Fury damage bonus.

Looking at CSM Plasma and SM Plasma in a vacuum is bad for balance discussion anyway; anything in a vacuum is bad. "Nyar-har, Chaos Sorc + Chains + PSMs + Plasma is the icky!" I'll raise you that SM gets a Whirlwind, and there goes all that CSM Plasma out the window!

Plus, there's six other races to consider.

On that note, people make a case for Eldar and light infantry; that's actually not true. Interestingly enough, by Tier 3, all Eldar infantry with the exception of Guardians, Rangers, and Dark Reapers are heavy infantry! Banshees are heavy_med with Armor 2, Spiders are heavy_med, and Fire Dragons are heavy_high, Terminator-class. They still get ripped up really nicely too.

The point stands: CSM Plasma is way more effective than any other heavy weapon in the game, costs little, and is on an invisible uncapped platform that is reasonably durable, zippy, and gets an extra 40% damage buff on demand. Something's got to give.
i cant see a massive issue with CSM or there weapons to be honest, there not the toughest of troops an die quite quickly to focused fire, they break morale an this is impossible to recover, so a retreat of the affected squad is required to regain this, leaving the squad in place is pointless unless ur about to win the fight, as they wont recover while taking fire an there combat power will be next to zero.

once exposed CSM die quite quickly, the heavy bolters are about right as they are now, good dmg an range, the plasma is a tier 3 upgrade an should be good, the dmg is slightly better than that of heavy bolters an the range slightly less + they have no setup time, line dividing which to choose is a fine one at the moment, lets keep it that way, rather than just nerf one, to the point were it's a irelevance an no one uses it, thats the worst possible outcome frankly.

Main issue seems to be that some races dector units have weak stats or poor detection range, rather than any fundamental issue with CSM themselves, compared to SM there is no comparison they are very differant units despite, having very similar baseline stats to start with an thats to be applauded, clone armies that look differant an fight the same, no thanks, a major success on relics part with DC is the real differances between chaos an SM,(indeed all the armies) there no longer a mirror race with a few differances in units here an there, but completely differant sides, well done relic on that one, sure its going to create balance issue's but the payoff in terms of fun, replay value & added strategic depth is more than worth it

Stealth is a major aspect of the new CSM, they lack the morale, an the versaltile nature of SM in choice of weapons an the abiltiy to be DS, they gain a strong surprise element, an the ablilty to move around unseen meaning ambushes an quick sudden attacks are there fortes, strength in these area's balances out there weakeness of low morale, lower heavy weapon count & more limited choice of weapons, (only choice is anti infantry weapons)

What's required is slightly tweaked detection ranges for some races dector units, an thats it, it needs to be done carefully (small changes) as CSM relies a lot on there stealth for there effectiveness, without it they would not be particularly effective.

you need to look at the full picture, not just stealthed CSM'S kill other infantry easy, chaos have no real frontline armour, both preds an defilers have low hp compared to other races armour, they compensate with cloaked units an a strong infantry lineup, thats very good against other races infantry, in either cc or range, due to the stealth aspect hit an run can be very effective for chaos, if dectors are to effective this abilty becomes of no use an chaos will suffer heavily due to there strong reliance on it for keeping there troops alive.

Some races have the right dector balance, IG, ORCS, SM spring to mind others Necrons, elder, Particulaly tau might need a few tweaks, but they need to be small, increasing the wraith's dection range would probably suffice for necrons, elder farseer should detect she's suposed to a be psychic? tau might need more of a rework, as pathfinders are very weak an you can only have 1 squad of Vespids, who die quite quickly aswell, but you need to be careful here due to the range of FW to good a dection rate would mean CSM never having the benefit of stealth which would mean loosing most encounters especially at tier 3, were chaos are still heavily reliant on there CSM's while other races have strong armour, or more troops choices elites, or troop scaleablity at this level, CSM's only scale to tier 3 via plasma, no hp doubling or armour upgrades as per elder an orcs, who both get massive health buffs to there bread an butter troops at tier 3, as do necrons an tau.

Its the stealth aspect that allows CSM's to remain competive at this level, with out it, things like artilery etc will tear your army apart in no time, CSM are the same as SM in the sense if you equip them both with bolters or plasma, SM are good becuase you can DS them into good postions, an they are difficult to break, an CSM are good becuase they are cloaked, an can temporarely boost there damage, take cloaking as an effective tool away from them an how good are they going to be? not very an seeing as chaos are very reliant on CSM as the backbone of there infantry force it's gonna hurt hard

Blakey85

31st Jan 07, 4:12 PM

Can you please for once DROP THE IDEA THAT CSM ARE PAPER UNITS?!?!?! CSM Start of with 375 HP,while Tacs with 390! Big freaking deal! Bionics gives tacs 488 HP,while PTW (Yes..it is hard to depend on it..but the chances that the sargent will get hit ain't that good) 475! Agian a freaking 13 HP difference. They have other differences but they are not that great. Does that allow CSM Plasma to butt rape way way way better then SM plasma? NO. Add to that infiltration.

Agian,it should be better,but it's too much right now. Beside the damge changes from target to target and that's just wrong.. .

HB shouldn't be as good as SM ones,cause like you answered for the plasma, it comes tier earlier (Which means this little [--],Beside long range plus invisiability is awful mean.

War-Reborn

31st Jan 07, 4:42 PM

ur right HP differance between CSM an SM is nothing, both have lousy hp at tier 3 compared to a lot of other races troops whose hp or armour scale far better as the game progresses up the teck tree, like elder or necrons ,each race has differant strengths an weakness's in differant area's why does everyone have to have the same stat's SM's are very usefull at tier 3 becuase you can equip them with the weapons for the job you need an them to do an then DS into the area you want those weapons fire'd from, CSM are usefull because you can fire while cloaked, meaning u can move ur forces unseen an fire while unseen too, unless ur enemy properly counters with dector units, you gain a huge advantage from this, its what the games about, its why CSM's have around 470hp at tier 3 an necron warriors have 1000hp differant sides differant strengths in differant area's, one's tough, ones stealthy.

But even thats not a good comparison you need to evalute the army as a whole, not just one unit against another, chaos dont get the same level of vehicles as other sides, they have less choice an there less powerful in the most part aswell, yet looking at it overall the chaos army seems fairly solid, its not perfect but its hardly a lame duck or uber cant be beaten race, start making big changes to there main frontline infantry unit, an that could all change, main issue that makes CSM overpowered against some sides is it can be very hard for a race like tau to detect them for long before those dectors get toasted, of course if you cant see them ur going to get owned, that goes without saying, but making them to easy to see, an the ownage is going to go the other way round, due to the lower hp compared to other races troops at tier 3, as i said HH or artiley will melt a CSM force, in double quick time, the stealth is the counterbalance

SubakuGaara

31st Jan 07, 6:55 PM

There is also the truth that SMs have better vehicle support; CSMs have to fight on their own and in a head on firefight DO drop quickly.

Like I've said all along, the CSM plasma is just fine. The only reason I dislike it is its another infantry killing weapon. Chaos already can kill infantry fine. What they really need is av support. I'm in favor of nerfing it, only if an av boost to the weapon is given in return.

ImmortalChaos

31st Jan 07, 6:58 PM

Nerf plasma and give them missle launchers!

Jaimas

31st Jan 07, 7:01 PM

I think Immortal's spot-on with that one.

Seriously, WHY were weapon options cut again?! I seem to recall the reason being that some retard or another claimed that Chaos was "too much like SM" and that being the reason for it.

:handbag:

Blakey85

31st Jan 07, 7:06 PM

Well cloacked CSM with missle launchers seem just too much similar to tankbustas. I wouldn't mind a bit stronger flame throwers though at tier 2. That would own.

ImmortalChaos

31st Jan 07, 7:08 PM

I feel like a broken record... Nerf plasma, leave HBs, add flamers and missle launchers, lose the cloaking.

PS: Cloak not cloack!

Blakey85

31st Jan 07, 7:09 PM

Nah screw that! Cloak is the chaos trade mark,i used to even use it back when it wasn't so strong for some garilla melle fights. I disagree.

Nothing feels as good as decloaking on a bunch of HB SMs when he didn't bother buying his hero to knife their guts out.

ImmortalChaos

31st Jan 07, 7:14 PM

You are mad. Trademark? Hardly.

Cloaking on CSMs is just so abso-fucking-lutely retarded I cant stand it. Just ugh... 7 foot hulking monsters who twitch and laugh mianically should NOT (let me repeat, NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT) be able to shoot you in the face with assorted glowy weaponry and be invisible to the naked eye. If you want infiltration use cultists.

Lets have a vote shall we? Who would rather have all 4 heavy weapons back, and who would perfer to keep the retarded cloaking?

Blakey85

31st Jan 07, 7:20 PM

I'm up for the retarted cloaking. Although this seems atad useless as they already did the effort to change in to this state,but so be it.
It's their main difference beside the hornes >_>. Otherwise SM ones are just way better and cooler.

SubakuGaara

31st Jan 07, 7:25 PM

keep the cloaking. screw the symmetry. make plasma an av option

ImmortalChaos

31st Jan 07, 7:31 PM

CSM. AND. SM. ARE. THE. SAME. FUCKING. UNIT!!!
Why is it so important that they become different from SM? Between charge and PTW they are different enough. Chaos have daemons, SM have vehicles and grey knights. They are very unique races.

I cant belive people actually like this BS cloaking...

SubakuGaara

31st Jan 07, 7:45 PM

Why? Its not that good. get a detector and its nullified.

http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?p=2110858#post2110858

Here's that replay I was talking about. Its freaking hilarious at the end. Notice the gibits left after the... well I won't ruin it for you. Anyway, look how slow my tech was for Hbs compared to his. Its not easy to mass enough HBs to be effective you know. And there are such things as hard counters (ie jump troops, teleporting commanders, etc)

Watch the game. its only 5 minutes long about...

Blakey85

31st Jan 07, 7:50 PM

Calm down immortal...i mean i can relate to your tamper cause i have those kind of outbursts myself,but you got to realise that your opinion ain't the only one. They are not the same unit. 1 is a tac squed and the second is a tac squed after the taint. Now as far as i see,being able to go invisable and still shoot stuff up is evil and foul play so it goes well with the chaos line of thought. That means nothing but atleast i don't get the stuipd same unit that the game started with and was created from,The tac squed!.

And sabuka,provided the detector stays alive,yeah it's not THAT bad...but it's hardly the case in most games. Althought i like to think it comes from the OP weapon upgrades rather then the pure effective invisability.

ImmortalChaos

31st Jan 07, 7:52 PM

They are the same unit, duh, CSM are just old SM. I mean, seriously, has anyone here played DoW vanilla? Chaos was an infinitely more fun and diverse race then IMO.

Jaimas

31st Jan 07, 7:56 PM

I say keep the cloaking and bring back the Missile Launcher. Make the Plasma gun fundamentally identical to the SM version, and drop it a whole fuggin' Tier. Make MLs tier 3 if they're going to be a viable AV option.

There. You make the "nerf plasma" crowd happy, and you make the "bring back chaos special weapons" crowd happy, and the only ones I can see disappointed with this arrangement are the "BUT CSM NEED TO BE DIFFERENT FROM SM" crowd, who would be clearly ignoring the cloak factor, furious charge, purge the weak, and daemonic fury, thus rendering their argument irrelevant.

http://209.85.12.231/1483/55/emo/Emoticon___PWNED.gif

Blakey85

31st Jan 07, 7:58 PM

What the heck are you talking about? Yeah i played DoW vannila when the eldar council rush was the coolest new trick. CS were just the same like SM. Freaking horrors were crappy plasma guns while you STILL had normal plasma guns,which made them useless. Err predators were the same thing,where they started with the normal machine guns and upgraded to lasers. How were they more deverse? Oblits sucked ass and so did defilers. It was a freaking tac mass fight -_-,just one mass had hornes and the other one didn't.
They had the same upgrades and yet SM would win cause they had the chaps.

Jaimas and i'm from the "I like it as it is right now,just nerf the plasma damge and the HB a tad pl0x" crowd. So it doesn't seem fine by me.

ImmortalChaos

31st Jan 07, 7:58 PM

Yes but the "omg retarded 7foot tall monster shooting me while I cant see him cowd" (:p) remains highly unsatisfied. Though I do like the idea of T3 missles.

Jaimas

31st Jan 07, 8:01 PM

Blakey: Why is it not fine then? This arrangement nerfs the plasma gun, helps tactical options late game, and makes a hell of a lot more sense than an AV plasma weapon. But fine. We'll fix the HB thing too. There.

Now what part of it do you object to?

Blakey85

31st Jan 07, 8:05 PM

What are you talking about? you mean losing the invisability and bringing back the weapon choises? Yeah it might help makes things more balanced but it's BORING! I like it as it is right now..this way they atleast develop into 2 different forces rather then the same unit with different audios. Bionics is just like PTW,Furios charge is nice and all but when did you bother melleing stuff? I mean really.. even with that whoping + 20% damge,they'll still be just like tacs. Battle cry -> Angry bonus,blah and well alot of stuff.
Fine,you're titled to your own opinion. It's just wrong by me.

Jaimas

31st Jan 07, 8:16 PM

No, pay attention. My fix calls for:

1. Reducing HB damage appropriately.
2. Nerfing Plasma to SM levels.
3. Adding Missile Launchers as a T-3 AV option.

That's it. Cloaking stays as is. What part of it is so objectionable to you? :wtf2:

Blakey85

31st Jan 07, 8:19 PM

Err..well that's ok. Invisable missle launchers just scream "Tankbusta ripoff!!!" to me,but so be it.

Centurion

31st Jan 07, 8:25 PM

I'd personally not like to see CSM get their missiles back. I'd rather see Horrors buffed in Tier 3. Horrors and Oblits would be my choice for ranged AV, and just let CSM be more AI focused.

Jaimas

31st Jan 07, 8:28 PM

The general idea was that Chaos has far too many AI options and nowhere near enough AV. This helps to fix that and makes a lot more sense than AV Plasma guns.

I was going to originally suggest Meltas (hooray, another TT solution), but there's no existing in-game models for Meltaguns for Chaos troops (there are for IG), so that one didn't quite go anywhere.

As for Horrors, don't get me wrong, they're a good AV Choice. The Problem is that:
A. They cost too much
B. They don't reinforce
C. They are one of only three AV units (only one of which is really a dedicated AV unit, compared to the multitude of AV options other races get)
D. They're really, really expensive, and don't scale at all (whilst CSMs with Missiles are also expensive, they pump out reasonable AI damage and can be available earlier, with no missiles, as part of the bargain)
E. They are capped at 5/squad
G: As a result of B and E, Horror squads are increasingly crippled as they lose members

Horrors are great units, to be sure, but to claim they and Obliterators are the only AV units Chaos will ever need is ridiculous. Obliterators deal paltry damage to heavier vehicles, are hardcapped at 1, and are ponderously slow and easy to outmanuver.

The only other AV options Chaos has are Chaos Predators (which are ubiquitous), and Defilers in close combat (which are a joke because of the Defiler's low HP). A nice AV option wouldn't be to tall an order, IMO.

SubakuGaara

31st Jan 07, 8:30 PM

simply adjust vehicle damage values for the CSM plasma. make them higher.

Jaimas

31st Jan 07, 8:40 PM

....Except that makes no sense. It works, to be sure, but it sets a really ugly precedent.

Centurion

31st Jan 07, 8:41 PM

I don't think that Chaos has too few infantry AV choices. It's just that they could do with a few improvements, instead of adding more AV choices, at the risk of making even more Chaos units redundant. I'd hate it for Horrors to be left as they are now, and only be an option if you wish to deepstrike AV. Make them reinforceable or buff their damage in Tier 3 or something. That way they'd keep their role as main ranged AV squad, and Oblits could be the elites.

Blakey85

31st Jan 07, 8:43 PM

Agree...and who says horrors cost too much ? They don't. I have like 3 of them in my army 24-7 in most games. They do suck against the heavier tanks though...

Jaimas

31st Jan 07, 8:52 PM

Blakey, Cent, what hamstrings Horrors as AV (aside from their retard low vehicle_high damage, wtf is that about), is the exact thing that hamstrings Broadsides from being a constant in people's armies aside from the non-targetting factor, and that's the fact that as the Horror squad loses members, they cannot be replenished, and the squad suffers as a whole.

If they were reinforcible, and if they got a late game buff (perhaps tied to Daemonic fire), that could definitely work. The thing is, the way I see it, there's no way to keep all crowds happy in nerfing CSM specials/heavies unless some concession is made to keep them viable.

Once cloaking's down, CSMs aren't as strong as SMs. Yes, CSM have fury, but that actually makes them take more damage. If HBs are cut on top of the Plasma Nerfs, and nothing else is done, you weaken the primary troop choice of Chaos and inordinately favor the absolutely retarded early Zerker tech.

SubakuGaara

31st Jan 07, 9:06 PM

Well the real issue is that none of chaos's units scale at all. CSMs at the start of the game are more or less the same unit at the end. The same for defilers, horrors, raptors, berzerkers, etc. They don't change period. Preds are like the only unit that scale and even then still get their ass kicked by all the other tier 4 tanks.

this is unlike, say all the eldar troops which get numerous upgrades so that in tier 3 they are all viable units. CSMs are still more or less the same flimsy tier 1 units with bigger guns. The guns are apparently "to scale them", yet it works poorly as they die quickly in head on firefights.

But yes, in general, none of chaos's units scale upwards...

Centurion

31st Jan 07, 9:17 PM

I honestly can't say how CSM heavy weapons should best be balanced. They do dish out a lot of damage, especially obvious when compared to Tacs. But then again, the way I see CSM and Tacs compared to each other, is that Tacs are more durable(well they aren't really, but I think they probably should), have more weapon options, and better morale with a seargent plus Battle Cry. CSM have fewer options, but they have infiltration, more firepower in their heavy weapons, plus a better leader with Berzerk Fury.

I like how Tacs are the steady and dependable troops that can be equipped to perform various tasks. While CSM have more firepower against certain targets, but aren't as durable once they are detected.

Their weapon damage certainly needs to be looked at. I don't like the way the Heavy Weapons research can double HB damage in Tier 1, although I never get it in Tier 1 myself. Plasma is also really high, though I actually don't see it abused in the games I play. But however Relic ultimately balances them, I hope that the CSM heavy weapons will still be stronger than the ones the Tacs have.

SubakuGaara

31st Jan 07, 9:41 PM

Earthworm

31st Jan 07, 9:59 PM

Plasma is high but it suits don' tyou think? I look at the support for chaos troops and there isnt much. SM troops have support like crazy. the same goes for a lot of races. Doesn't chaos deserve the strong infantry weapons since they don't have real vehicle support or hero support? I mean, the corruption spell is no orbital strike, and the defiler is no dread. Chaos pred loses to all the tier 4 tanks. Everything about chaos is such a downer...

Thats exactly how Chaos is meant to be.....Jaimas is right.Chaos have a strong AI and weak AV.Chaos plasma is tier 3.In tier 3 other races will be fielding dreads/hellfires/wraithlords/skyrays/bassies....you name it.And what does Chaos have to counter that? Horrors? Defilers ? Preds(before the chaos projectiles) ? LOL!!!!

The current chaos plasma is not as severe as it is made out to be.It helps them only against infantry.Vehicles will still rip them apart.

Blakey85

31st Jan 07, 10:03 PM

Well fine...but don't come whining to me when i use my invis plasma marines. I'm sick and tired of people calling me a noob cause of that >_<...like i didn't own them up to that point anyway.

Earthworm

31st Jan 07, 10:07 PM

Well fine...but don't come whining to me when i use my invis plasma marines

As long as you dont whine bout my hellfires or WW.... ;)

SubakuGaara

31st Jan 07, 10:45 PM

Trust me, I won't call you a noob for using plasma.

How does everyone feel about an HP boost to the chaos predator via the daemonic projectiles upgrade?
Here's why I feel it is in order

Here's all the tier 4 tanks listed by armor and hp. Relic tanks are not listed because they are uber units

Predator/ vehicle med/ 4000
Predator annihilator /vehicle med/ 5820
Fire prism/ vehicle med/ 6210 HP after upgrade
Tau Hammerhead/ vehicle high/ 2200
Ork Looted tank/ vehicle med/ 5000+ after upgrade (initially 4585 and then 10 percent HP boost via upgrade)
Russ leman/ 5200 HP/ vehicle med

Now I haven't worked out the DPSs for all of them, but nonetheless it seems like the chaos predator is getting the shaft in terms of HP. I mean fire prisms have a ridiculous amount of HP. Ridiculous....

Earthworm

31st Jan 07, 11:09 PM

You forgot that the fire prisms can also jump :)

Chaos preds are fine.....they do really good damage after the chaos projectiles.
The other tanks are also fine....except for the HHs who should be veh_med and 3000hp(atmost).

Jaimas

31st Jan 07, 11:09 PM

I have never called anyone a newb for using CSM Plasma. Nor will I ever.

Considering Warp Spiders, Tau Fire Warriors, and other borderline-imba troops in Tier 3, I honestly think the CSM Plasma, comparitively speaking, is a slap on the F'ing wrist. :P

Earthworm

31st Jan 07, 11:12 PM

Jaimas I agree that Chaos plasma is fine....but so are tier 3 FWs...come on...dont you mean OP tier 3 Tau honour guards.. ;)

Cyberbob

31st Jan 07, 11:16 PM

Why did you compare a unit you're defending to a unit that's generally agreed to be OP?

Earthworm

31st Jan 07, 11:22 PM

Why did you compare a unit you're defending to a unit that's generally agreed to be OP?

Fill the blanks please...I dont know what "units" your talking about.....

Cyberbob

31st Jan 07, 11:53 PM

Oshit. I just reread your post.

Nevermind.

Jaimas

31st Jan 07, 11:55 PM

Cheerfully withdrawn, worm.

Rocsflight

31st Jan 07, 11:58 PM

Earthworm

1st Feb 07, 1:52 AM

Earthworm, Jaimas is probably talking aobut how the firewarriors gets boosts to infantry heavy high armor and a range of forty five. the ten percent health boost and ten sight range boost probably don't hurt either.

I guess your talking about the kauyon FWs......I think they have more range than 45....but even so they are balanced...like current Chaos plasma.The problem people face with kauyon FWs is that there is a "watch us and shit you pants" line of 6 krootoxen tanking for them....which will be fixed by hardcapping them at 2(hopefully)

Now enough of Tau...back to Chaos...I personally dont have a problem wth current Chaos plasma cause in tier 3 you will be having enough vehicles to rip them apart cause we all know Chaos sucks at AV.This crappy chaos AV balances things out a bit.

Cyberbob

1st Feb 07, 1:55 AM

Earthworm

1st Feb 07, 2:29 AM

Except without an infantry force to speak of (they all got annihilated by the invisible plasma)... how will the other player stop your AV without any support?

-Edit-

I'd also like to see them detect you without any infantry, as every single detector in the game (barring turrets, which are relatively simple to destroy) is infantry-based.
LOL......infantry got anhilated by plasma??? CSM squad will still lose to a SM squad even with the plasma.

regarding the detectors...its TIER 3!!!!

Seer council,Librarian(attached),Manz etc etc are hard to bring down.Also while the detectors detect artillery wont be sitting there watching T.V.

Bassies,skyrays,WW will destroy the CSMs before the detectors are blown off(if they are blown off i.e cause most of them will have loads of hp/armour)

Cyberbob

1st Feb 07, 2:40 AM

SM squads that can't see them, my friend.

And do you really think that CSM squads are the only unit people use?

This isn't a vacuum, you know - there are plenty of other Chaos units which are more than capable of eliminating detectors.

sypher_diaz

1st Feb 07, 2:59 AM

i would like to point out that even when "invisible" to your troops, you can still see the mussel flashes of the cloaked units weapons......target then with attack ground abaility on your artilary. Bye bye cloaked units. It requires some micro so you dont kill your own troops, but its not rocket science. So you dont even need detectors to piss off and destroy any massed cloaked army.

i think this is an issue that needs adressing in the same way that the eldar cloaked buildings still can be found "by sonar". Or make it so that any attack ground commands are far less accurate, so you might end up hitting your own troops or over shooting and missing all together.

Earthworm

1st Feb 07, 3:03 AM

Read my post again BOB...I know SMs cant see them thats why I have written about detectors...duh.And CSMs cant see skull probes either who inturn see the CSMs.

This isn't a vacuum, you know - there are plenty of other Chaos units which are more than capable of eliminating detectors.

If you let them then yes.There is no fool proof counter to anything....this is a RTS.If you had some strategy that would leave Chaos no option but to loose all CSMs....then we would be discussing about that..not the plasma.

Cyberbob

1st Feb 07, 3:14 AM

Bleh. This argument is stupid. I'm going to end it here, before it gets even more convoluted.

In summary, I'd be up for Jaimas' suggested fixes.

Earthworm

1st Feb 07, 3:30 AM

In summary, I'd be up for Jaimas' suggested fixes.

which never included nerfing chaos plasma.....which is exactly what I said.Chaos plasma is fine.BOB are you doing this to annoy me or something???

Cyberbob

1st Feb 07, 3:34 AM

Er, sure, whatever you say... (http://forums.relicnews.com/showpost.php?p=2110875&postcount=789)

Earthworm

1st Feb 07, 4:34 AM

Thats like 50 posts back....I guess Jaimas will clear this himself....back on topic Chaos plasma is fine as it is...

SubakuGaara

1st Feb 07, 5:12 AM

Chaos preds are fine.....they do really good damage after the chaos projectiles.
The other tanks are also fine....except for the HHs who should be veh_med and 3000hp(atmost).

Chaos preds seem a little on the soft side. Fire prisms have near 2000 more hp each compared to them. They put out good DPS but is it enough to really say preds are functioning on a tier 4 level?

sypher_diaz

1st Feb 07, 5:38 AM

i think the problem with preds is the hard cap of 2. I think in the chaos case it should be raised to 3, because chaos have only 2 vehicle options. Defilers are weak by tier 4 standards and they arent exactly speedy.

All of the other races have a wider range of vehicles to choose from, so having a hard cap on the tier 4 tanks is not much of an issue. For chaos once you reach that cap your only choice is to build defilers which dont stand up to tier 4 AV at all. It could be argued that other races additional choices dont match up to tier 4 AV either, which they dont, but they have more varied uses.

For example, once SM have 2 annihilators they could decide to build dreads to DS, or hellfires to disrupt or landspeeders to hit and run on infantry units. Which means that you can trick your oponent into leaving an opening you can exploit. When facing chaos you KNOW there will be 2 preds with defilers lagging behind.

Preds need either more HP/damage or to have thier cap increased. The other option would be to add in a "chaosy" version of the SM landspeeder to add some variety.

Slyfe

1st Feb 07, 7:32 AM

back on topic Chaos plasma is fine as it is...

Earth i've noticed a pattern in your balance discussions. Anything thats had a suggested damage nerf is always fine in the damage aspect to you.

Are you just against damage nerfing in general or when you spin the situation and say nerf range/los/cooldown/whatever do you really think that those are a better fix?

Im for jamais's fix posted by bob. I agree with SirNick in that the plasma does deal just a little too much.

In return i think the missiles are a good idea. It would be cool if you could make a more chaos-like av weapon that acted like a missile launcher. Demon rockets or something i dont fu*king know. But yeah i liked his fix.

SubakuGaara

1st Feb 07, 11:10 AM

Earth isn't alone in saying plasma is fine. We must seriously think before you choose to nerf something.

I'm not one of those fanatic "chaos must be different from SM", but man, I think missiles is going too far. Hows this for an option:Orks get two flashgitz. How about giving chaos an extra oblit squad, perhaps with a bit of an AV boost to the oblits themselves? Would two oblits completely balance out a lot of chaos' issues? Or will they throw everything out of whack and make chaos the ultimate dominant race (right now I'd say space marines are on top)?

I'm also infavor of dropping the cap on preds to 4 and raising the limit to three.

Think about it: chaos gets 2 Oblits and an extra predator and thats it. Solves av issue a bit. The onlyproblem is people maybe rolling out tier 2 predators three at a time...

And whats the deal with corruption. For a tier 3 spell, it just doesn't have much of a bang... can someone tell me the total damage dealt if a squad experiences it in full? can someone tell me if corruption affects vehicles as well?

Deaths Abyss

1st Feb 07, 11:26 AM

Chaos are the dominant race. They don't buffs, they need nerfs. Nerf ridiculous plasma, berzerker tech, do something to stop Sorceror spam and chaos will be grand.

Blakey85

1st Feb 07, 11:29 AM

Sorc spam is fine..he's nothing on his own. I'm with you on the bezerk tech and the plasma..aslong as the plasma STAYS better but not that much better. You forgot to whine about HBs too.

psychodil

1st Feb 07, 11:30 AM

Oblits >> gits in a vacuum, and do better damage across the board as well as having about double the HP. 2 oblit squads would throw things seriously out of whack, as chaos already have a very powerfull tier 3. SM tier 3/4 is and always has been imba so dont use that as a benchmark.

Check ourt the damage values on oblits and compare them to terminators and gits and you will see what i mean.

Blakey85

1st Feb 07, 11:34 AM

Yeah i saw...i see what you mean..err NOT. 2 gitz >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1 oblit,beside even if there was 1 gitz vs 1 oblit it will be mighty close. Just like nobs lose to every melle dedicated unit aswell without power claws,but you get 2.

Stop whining about everything,if you think SM,Chaos,Eldar and IG is that strong then stop playing what ever race you cling to -_-. Really constructive posts rather then "Well we all know how strong chaos is" Which it ain't!.

Maybe throw in a doc and make the oblits cry? No-ob.

War-Reborn

1st Feb 07, 12:19 PM

They are the same unit, duh, CSM are just old SM. I mean, seriously, has anyone here played DoW vanilla? Chaos was an infinitely more fun and diverse race then IMO.
i beg to differ here, some units were plain identical, i mean you had sm players charging you with 5 preds an a load of sm an then you had er chaos players doing the same thing with the same units? sure they were differant in places, but the playstyle, units an strategies overlapped in way to many area's.

In DC not only is there a great deal of variation to most of the 2 sides units with only 1 springing to my mind (raptors) as being pretty much a clone of the equivalent sm unit, but also more importantly the playstyle an strategies of the 2 races are now very differant, an that has to be a good thing

ImmortalChaos

1st Feb 07, 12:23 PM

In DoW, TSM and CSM were clones. Raps/ASM were also, and the FC/CL were to an extent. Hell, even rhinos and predators were clones.

In DC, I only want TSM and CSM to be clones...

War-Reborn

1st Feb 07, 12:42 PM

but why?, CSM an SM while having the same baseline stats to begin with now scale into completely differant roles in there respective armies, going back to making them clones of each other is a backward step, if anything they should perhaps be looking about making raptors an ASM more differant if possible, rather than going the other way

ImmortalChaos

1st Feb 07, 12:58 PM

They dont scale into completely different roles. CSM scale into 1 role(AI), and TSM scale into that same role AND another one(AV).

Deaths Abyss

1st Feb 07, 1:08 PM

Don't forget their morale role(Flamers) in tier1. Best to go with scouts for that though. Anyone here ever use rhinos smoke with CSM? Just seems to be a rather powerful combination with berzerk fury. Maybe it requires a nerf like the smoke bonus not working with berzerk fury.

Cyberbob

1st Feb 07, 1:27 PM

Im for jamais's fix posted by bob.

:dance:

ImmortalChaos

1st Feb 07, 1:35 PM

War-Reborn

1st Feb 07, 2:02 PM

They dont scale into completely different roles. CSM scale into 1 role(AI), and TSM scale into that same role AND another one(AV).
true sm are the more versatile, can be equipped for any situation unit AI or AV, but CSM dont just scale into a AI unit in the way a sm squad equipped with bolters or plasma does, the stealth aspect allows them to be used in base raids, ambushes, an distraction harrasing roles that visable SM armed with the same weapons would not be anywere near as effective at. While they share a common set of baseline stats an similar AI weapons, the stealth aspect fundamently alters the way CSM are used in fights, in much the same way as getting the obital relay changes the way a SM player deploys his troops to the battle

ImmortalChaos

1st Feb 07, 2:16 PM

Cloaking CSM are op and stupid IMO.

Tacs in rhinos can harass bases and abush troops pretty well though.

SubakuGaara

1st Feb 07, 2:51 PM

Oblit + PSM > Gitz.

hmm.... true, true, but I'd trade the gitz for the obliterator squad in a heartbeat.

ImmortalChaos

1st Feb 07, 3:03 PM

I think you mean trade the oblitz for gitz, in which case you're mad. Oblits will outshot gitz badly. More than double the Hp, better armour, 20 more DPS, and better vehicle damage. Oh, and a teleport. And DS.

Blakey85

1st Feb 07, 3:18 PM

Double HP? you know they have more squed members right? Anyway...as i said the fight is really close..like 1 or maybe 1.5 oblits will stay standing. A doc will make the gitz win. You get 2 gitz,he gets only 1 oblit. Psm fall to 2 nob squeds.

SubakuGaara

1st Feb 07, 4:19 PM

Well, before when I could attach a commander to the oblits squad, its was gravy. I could deepstrike my commanders and be sure that my powerful oblitz feel the symbol of chaos. It also allowed me to position my Chaos lord right near the frontlines. Nows its a bit hard to do that unless I'm playing a 1v1 game.

In truth, I'd still take the gitz instead of the oblitz. Oblitz fire rate is a bit too slow for me with the lascannon. Gitz have a more consistent rate of fire, and also do more damage to vehicles. I don't need another infantry killer if I'm chaos. I need someone who can challenge those vehicles and keep them from causing me havoc. Gitz do a better job of that.

Blakey85

1st Feb 07, 4:22 PM

"and also do more damage to vehicle" Wrong,other way around. 2 squed of gitz do better though,i'd give you that.

SubakuGaara

1st Feb 07, 4:53 PM

not according to dps on relic wiki. I think obs are 19 DPS to heavy med each, while gitz are 16 dps to heavy med each. But there are 7 gitz in a squad, so they come out on top by almost 20 DPS.

ImmortalChaos

1st Feb 07, 6:13 PM

Nobs are NOT elite squads.

PSM+Oblits = 2 gitz
rest of mad cloaking plasma CSM army = nobs
(not in terms of balance, in terms of comparison)

Blakey85

1st Feb 07, 6:15 PM

-_- i know,it was me who stated that to begin with. Nobz with klaws -> PSM,unless the chaos is smart and will flame breath them abit. All in all,balanced.

ImmortalChaos

1st Feb 07, 6:21 PM

Double HP? you know they have more squed members right? Anyway...as i said the fight is really close..like 1 or maybe 1.5 oblits will stay standing. A doc will make the gitz win.
Oblts have 1100 HP of heavy_high... Gitz 450 of heavy_med. 5 oblits have considerably more HP than 7 gitz.

You get 2 gitz,he gets only 1 oblit. Psm fall to 2 nob squeds
Ork gets 2 gitz, chaos PSM and oblits. PSM+oblits will make gitz cry, and the nobs will fall to the massed cloaking plasma. =/

SubakuGaara

1st Feb 07, 6:25 PM

Nobz are indeed elite. At the end of the game, each nobz has about 1150 HP each and has heavy high armor. They also have the power claw which does mad damage to everything. For example, to vehicle med, a possessed squad member even with the damage upgrade, does about 25 DPS. Each nobz with power claw does 41.5 DPS and thats not including the damage boost that may come from the mob bonus*. Each nobz power claw does the same DPS to infantry med as a CSM plasma rifle. Yes indeed, nobz are an elite unit. They just have to scale up there and it takes a long time to get all those powerclaws built and attached. But once on, nobz can take down any elite melee infantry squad with ease.

Oh and for those who suggest using flamers to break morale, I think it'd be impossible. Orks have the moral immunity with a mob value of 30. One full nobz squad with leader is already sitting at 22... in essence, i'm saying if an ork player attacked you with two nobz squads, you'd pretty much have to kill a lotta nobz before you can even start thinking about managing their morale. I've always wondered though if the Daemons Prince's roar would break a mob of orks that had the immunity?

I'm pretty upset that chaos doesn't have the strongest anything...

*2 full nobz squads put you at 44. Add a couple of leaders, or even a shoota boy squad and you're sitting at the 50 needed for the Mob damage bonus

ImmortalChaos

1st Feb 07, 6:30 PM

I'm not going to argue about orks. Off topic.

Besides, the best possible thing to compare chaos' elite units to is SM ones...

Oblits > Termies
PSM > Assault termies
CSM plasma > TSM plasma/HB

SubakuGaara

1st Feb 07, 6:32 PM

Now compare the vehicles as well as the heroes...

And its not like the units you listed above are winning by much. In fact, I don't think Oblits will gun down a terminator squad at all...

ImmortalChaos

1st Feb 07, 6:36 PM

Termis will outshoot oblitz in a vacuum but oblits have much bettwe damage to other infantry while termies just have around the same damage to heavy high as other infantry.

Blakey85

1st Feb 07, 6:54 PM

Start a whine post about it somewhere else...you've been sidetracking this whole thread for the last 3 pages. Stop it please -_-.

SubakuGaara

1st Feb 07, 6:55 PM

Hey! Its not like I don't like chaos. I really like their moxie, with that whole "skulls for the skull throne" thing. They just don't have the best units across the board. I mean, even a newb realizes something is up with chaos's vehicles.

The reason why I don't play space marine is simple. I know they are stronger than chaos, I know they are tougher, have better infantry, better vehicles, better heroes*, etc**. I don't play them because I don't like their moxie. Their style, their theme, it just doesn't work for me. So when I play chaos I know its a losing battle. Almost immediately I'm at a disadvantage and have to work harder than the SM guy and tech better, and micro better and constantly harass. That is whats fun/frustrating about chaos.

I really do think though that a little av buff to the defiler, a health buff or a raising of the predator cap to 3, and allowing two oblits instead of just one would go a long long way to evening the playing field.

*SM heroes just flat out rock...
**Just compare how many hardcapped units SM has to chaos. Thats an indication of something right there...Remember the basic notion of a hardcap is "such and such unit is sooooo good, we can only let you have (for example) one. Anymore than one is like cheating" Like "the whirlwhind is sooooo good, to let SM have more than one is like cheating..."

Blakey85

1st Feb 07, 7:01 PM

"I really do think though that a little av buff to the defiler, a health buff or a raising of the predator cap to 3, and allowing two oblits instead of just one would go a long long way to evening the playing field." you're completely mad. I agree on the defiler part but the chaos predator is a beast already...he does just fine if not better then most other tanks. 2 oblits is too much,almost every race gets 1 each of their best unit...why should chaos be different? You should really try playing a game or 2 online before posting.

ImmortalChaos

1st Feb 07, 7:01 PM

So when I play chaos I know its a losing battle. Almost immediately I'm at a disadvantage and have to work harder than the SM guy and tech better, and micro better and constantly harass. That is whats fun/frustrating about chaos.
That is a steaming pile of bullpoopie. CSM are as strong if not stronger than SM. the only thing that is completely and totally OP about SM is the WW...

If you want to know youre playing a losing battle play IG.

SubakuGaara

1st Feb 07, 7:14 PM

Pred HP is quite on the low side and its DPS to vehicle med isn't enough to compensate. Compare the pred to the 6000+ hp fireprism, and you'll see. I'm not saying preds suck, I'm just saying preds are only a partial answer to tier 4 tanks. The real answer is to not let the opponent pull out tier 4 tanks.

SM preds destroy CSM preds quite easily. If I lose my preds, what does chaos really have to counter SMs rocking vehicles? The same is true for a lot of the races. Remove chaos's preds and we lose a lot of our vehicular teeth.

The losing battle is the feeling I have. It inspires me to be aggressive and to keep my opponent on the edge. You may not feel the same way, but it works for me. I'm one of those guys who likes to see things in motion.

I play frequently online, mostly 1v1, but occasionally I wander into 3v3 games. I'm no servant, but I will always put up a good fight and either you or I will go down feeling quite good.

I've tried IG. Losing battle there too, until you start pumping out basilisks. Then it starts getting fun. BUt I don't like IGs moxie either. Its like they openly think of themselves as weak...

ImmortalChaos

1st Feb 07, 7:17 PM

CSM preds do more damage than any T4 tank other than the HH. I will admid however that the CSM pred is weakish in T4 due to lower Hp and I fully support a buff.

The losing battle is the feeling I have. It inspires me to be aggressive and to keep my opponent on the edge.
It may be a great state of mind that helps you play better but it is nowhere near the truth.

Inst

1st Feb 07, 8:10 PM

According to DoWSanc, Chaos is tied for second place after Necron.

ImmortalChaos

1st Feb 07, 8:15 PM

I would agree with that, untill T3 where it evens out a lot, however chaos hits T2 and T3 much faster than any other race.

EDIT: Though I would probably say they are 3rd and tau second.

Inst

1st Feb 07, 8:19 PM

The Khorne Berserkers scare the crap out of me. With Necron, Tau, and whatever, the Khorne Berserkers pwn me. They tell me to go vehicles to compensate, but Khorne Berserkers have a lot of HP and thus take a while to go down. With proper micro, a Khorne Berserker squad can entangle TWO squads, which really causes my vehicles to lose to horrors.

BTW everyone mines their generator these days.

Blakey85

1st Feb 07, 8:35 PM

How can a khrone bezerker squed "entangle" 2 squed with proper micro? It depends totally on the other guy. If he's dumb enough to have them stick like that even when he sees that happening well...bad.

SubakuGaara

1st Feb 07, 9:07 PM

Well, that losing feeling, it overwhelms me when I battle against SM and Eldar. They have vehicles and infantry to fill every niche an army has. Because of this fact, even in the hands of an amateur they can be forceful in their responses. I know that I can't let them get to the final tiers where they may be too much to handle. A maxed out well balanced SM force will probably take any combination of maxed out Chaos Units...

But against, say the Necron, I feel almost overconfident. They won't even hit tier 2 against me.

For the guy who opposed a second obliterator squad, I understand your concern, but I would like to say that its not out of the question. If we're talking tier 3 ranged superunits, chaos is actually lagging behind. Indeed, SMs get just one terminator squad, but races like the Ork get 2 flashgitz (in addition to the dual nobz) and even worse, the eldar get 3 410+ DPS dealing warp spiders. Its not absurd to imagine a second obliterator squad walking the field. Besides, we know that oblits actually deal less damage than a full CSM plasma squad; they are just tougher to kill. I don't see it as a crushing imbalance at all.

In reality however, I don't want the second oblitz for the AI ability. Chaos kills infantry well enough. Its the AV department, that a second oblitz could really help.

But yes I do understand your concern.

magicalcarpet

1st Feb 07, 9:15 PM

Maybe he means 2 because ones running and ones shooting. Or perhaps just that stragglers will randomly tie another squad in CC because of just one guy. That really pisses me off.

Really Subaku, you sound completely biased. Way to void your own opinion. They really just need a few tweaks. Oblits are fucking awesome and two squads would be pretty OP.

As a new idea, how about Projectiles gives Defilers a reasonable AV buff. It at least gives Chaos another avenue for AV.

PS. I haven't really been following this thread but is there any real sense of rhythm? Is the OP being updated with generally agreed upon ideas?'

EDIT: Your opinion is flawed again by the fact that you compare to 3 WS, you NEVER make comparisons to OP stuff!! CSM plasma in itself is a heated debate topic.

ImmortalChaos

1st Feb 07, 9:20 PM

The only reason oblits dont outperform CSM plasma is because CSM plasma is massively overpowered.

If you feel like you are being overwhelmed by SM and eldar, chances are you're being just that- outplayed.

Blakey85

1st Feb 07, 9:39 PM

Edit - I deleted my previous post cause i actully looked up the defiler stats and he seems awful strong. Anyway harm already adressed the issue in his "ideas" so i'll add nothing more,beside the fact that the AC needs a range of 30 atleast. His range his piss poor and denys the defiler of any ranged power.

Earthworm

1st Feb 07, 9:57 PM

Earth i've noticed a pattern in your balance discussions. Anything thats had a suggested damage nerf is always fine in the damage aspect to you.

Are you just against damage nerfing in general or when you spin the situation and say nerf range/los/cooldown/whatever do you really think that those are a better fix?

Im for jamais's fix posted by bob. I agree with SirNick in that the plasma does deal just a little too much.

In return i think the missiles are a good idea. It would be cool if you could make a more chaos-like av weapon that acted like a missile launcher. Demon rockets or something i dont fu*king know. But yeah i liked his fix.

Well Slyfe I'll tell you what I think....I think balance is not a no brainer which can be fixed just by saying nerf it.....there are other factors to be considered.The developers must have had something in mind when they gave the Chaos the plasma.I think it is to make Chaos really good at AI and not so good at AV which being the strength and the weakness of the race respectively.

Also I saw discussions regarding increasing the hard cap of preds to 3 instead of 2.That will be blatantly IMBA.Chaos preds are not as bad as they are made out to be.Also they are tier 2.How are other races supposed to handle 3 preds in tier 2?

I am ok about Chaos horros being made reinforceable or increasing Defiler range/accuracy/ranged damage but thats about it.

SubakuGaara

1st Feb 07, 10:08 PM

Yeah warp spiders are so problematic! Its a bad comparison, but nonetheless its a comparison. The DPS of warp spiders wouldn't be so bad if they didn't also have ridiculous health and morale. At least necron warriors whohave high health, break easily and can be managed that way. With warp spiders, you have to face them head on...

Can I say I'm not biased? I don't know. I play almost exclusively chaos. I know their ins and outs better than most and I know where they're lacking. There have been times when I've been frustrated, swore off the game, came back, swore it off again, and so on. If thats bias, then so be it. Whats important to me is that I'm of a reasonable mind and am willing to follow any argument thats well presented. If anyone tries to present a point, i always give my best foot forwards to follow it and try to counterpoint it in order to find the greater truth.

I do honestly believe CSM plasma is fine. The numbers seem ok to me. When I compare it to other units at tier 3, its reasonable (within 10-20 percent differences). In battle, I don't see myself simply obliterating people'f infantry with it. Its strong, but not that strong. And its not my "go to" knockout punch. HBs are because of the earlier access. They are harder to deal with simply because the infantry HBs face aren't the tough tier 3 type. If I have to pull out plasma, I'll probably lose.

In fact, I prefer the HB to the plasma in tier 3 simply because of the range. Longer range allows my CSMs to remain unbroken, and berzerk fury is enough to really make the HBs noticeable. If they eliminated the plasma entirely, i wouldn't complain. If they nerfed it, I would complain, because if they can senselessly nerf the plasma, who knows what else they will simply be tucking down. Nerfing is a slippery slope, one to be treaded lightly and with good precaution.

The defiler's melee is strong. He's just a little soft HP wise for his price. I realize he is a jack of all trades, but nonetheless the price/efficiency ratio has to be 1to1 in at least one area, and currently its not. Making him a little tougher would go a long way to having the defiler earn his keep. Unless he destroys 150/260 worth of stuff, I've lost time and requisition purchasing him. That autocannon also needs addressing don't you guys think? Does it function well enough? What about the fire on the move penalty?

The same argument for the defiler goes for the pred. DPS wise its solid, but even though it dishes out more than it receives, HP wise its too soft and doesn't seem to last very long vs tier 4 tanks. In addition, the pred is the central vehicle of the chaos army. Simply to get them out and rolling requires some serious investments. It could stand to be a little stronger. Again, if the pred doesn't deliver 150/330 worth of damage, I've wasted my time and my resources.

But arguments for and against are always welcome. Just present them clearly.

magicalcarpet

1st Feb 07, 10:10 PM

I'm not so sure about this strong AI / weak AV, I don't think Relic would try to balance a game like that. Certainly seems stupid to me.

Also, I like how CSM and SM tac squads are different. I'd prefer an alternative AV solution to making them mirrors.

EDIT: Can anybody tell me what to search for in Wikipedia to get DoW Wiki?

I'd like to have some stats to refer to rather than just perception.

Centurion

1st Feb 07, 11:08 PM

EDIT: Can anybody tell me what to search for in Wikipedia to get DoW Wiki?

I'd like to have some stats to refer to rather than just perception.

Here:
http://wiki.reliccommunity.com/Dawn_of_War_Player%27s_Guide

fuggles

2nd Feb 07, 1:51 AM

What would people think about altering corruption to make it like the pariah's attack, but on a larger aoe?

sypher_diaz

2nd Feb 07, 2:02 AM

what about making preds 3 pop, so that you can build one right off the bat when you build the machine pit. Then increasing their health a little with the chaos projectile research.

The defiler needs something done, at the moment i feel they dont stand a chance of even getting into combat in tier 4. maybe a slight health buff with chaos projectiles, or leave health the same and improve AV damage with projectiles.

ImmortalChaos

2nd Feb 07, 8:03 AM

3 pop preds would be disgusting.

I am 100% against any pred buffs that change their cap/hardcap unless the cap/hardcaps of other tanks are similariry changed.

IMO Chaos preds would be fine with absolutely no chances other than +1000 HP in T4. Then some changes not directly related to the pred: FoTM returns for vehicles. 1st vehicle pop upgrade for chaos costs 75/0.

SubakuGaara

2nd Feb 07, 8:34 AM

Its one thing to say "3 pop preds would be disgusting". Its an understandable statement. But its equally important to tell us why you think so. I'm not trying to pick on your or be a wise ass, but that sort of statement needs a little supporting don't you think?

I'm sort of in line with you actually. Pred hp is a little low and the DPS isn't enough to compensate for the differences. Somewhere between a 400-1000 HP+ buff would go a long way. Either do that, or in tier 3 allow a third predator. 3 preds still won't outperform some races vehicles and AV solutions, but the idea is dangerous against races who have light tanks and races who don't really use their tanks at all. A third predator will nullify all the advantages of being ork or IG for example, since ork and ig buildings/vehicles are rather light, and their infantry in general lacks the range and toughness to withstand chaos's attacks already.

The third pred would allow chaos to go up against a tier 4 SM who's rolling out two preds, a land raider, and a whirlwind, in addition to the excellent rocket launcher tacs. They'd still lose (annihilators are AV monsters), but it'd be a lot closer than it currently is. The same vs eldar.

So there are pros and cons... maybe the daemonic projectiles upgrade raises pred limit to three? Eh... In my mind, we wouldn't be discussing a pred limit raising, if the defiler weren't a bit softer. My gut feeling is that it is the defiler that needs to be scaled into tier 3.

Azmodael

2nd Feb 07, 9:29 AM

Only current OPed thingie about preds is that they po out way too early. What you are suggesting is gonna make this even worse. While I am for HP buff on preds in tier 4 to have a fare fight with other tier 4 tanks I am definately against buffing preds in earlier tiers. Chaos needs an extra tank, not pred early buffs.

ImmortalChaos

2nd Feb 07, 9:44 AM

a1ph4riu5

2nd Feb 07, 9:46 AM

Hmm, since people want both the Defiler and the Chaos Predator to be a bit better very late game, how about an "extra vehicle armour" upgrade? Something that improves both vehicles, but instead of bundling it together with Chaos Projectiles. I think Chaos Projectiles buffs Predators enough already, considering that it's an instant acting change, on all of your previously constructed vehicles. It could become available after the tier 4 research has completed.

Altor

2nd Feb 07, 9:50 AM

Very interesting Idea Subaku, what if Deamonic Projectiles also buffed the Defilers? Shifting them into proper (read:effective) late game walkers.

Also I agree with Azmodeal about early buffs being unnescary.

And I am against having 3 preds. Chaos needs more vehicles but adding another pred is not the way to go about it.

Blakey85

2nd Feb 07, 10:14 AM

Isn't giving the defiler 30 range insted of it's 25 now on the AC will buff him enough? I mean he has low hp yeah...but not really. He has what? 3300? That's great,espically after you used some horrors to weaken an enemy walker to a point where you can effectivly engage it. It will give the defiler that much more troops killing power,cause the 25 range now basiclly tell you,you'd be better off going in to melle and half of the time the AC doesn't start shooting cause of the range.

Wraithlord will always win 1 on 1,but atleast the defiler can WTFOMG pwn infantry.

3 preds is dumb. You need to research so many cap upgrades just to get those stuipd 3 "ok" preds out. They make up for 15 cap...i'd rather just have 5 defilers.

Earthworm

2nd Feb 07, 10:18 AM

Isn't giving the defiler 30 range insted of it's 25 now on the AC will buff him enough?

Buff him yes....but enough...hmmmm....how about 35 range.And better damage to the battle cannon once chaos projectiles is researched

ImmortalChaos

2nd Feb 07, 10:19 AM

I agree with Blakey (amazing isn't it?) here.

Blakey85

2nd Feb 07, 10:20 AM

Dunno..the battle cannon sucks as it is it's main role is just disruption and to keep stuff in the AC range,better off buffing like the falmers with deamonic flame upgrade so it does good damge or rips thorugh moral. I can roll with the 35 range AC,but dunno if that's gonna be too good.

And IC : Your base r belongs to us.

ImmortalChaos

2nd Feb 07, 10:25 AM

The AC does an assload of damage. Increasing its range so it actually gets used is ok in my books. The battlecannon is fine IMO- though its disruption is a tad weak, I would love to see it do a bit more in that area.

Blakey85

2nd Feb 07, 10:30 AM

Agian,unless you double the battle cannon 5 fold,you'll see no real damge. It's disruption and moral breakage only,let it go. Err yeah,then 35 range or 30 range? I actully liked the flamer idea though >_< Makes running after stuff in melle better once the flamer starts stinging.

ImmortalChaos

2nd Feb 07, 11:00 AM

IMO the flamer could be buffed by legthening the AoE significantly.

Blakey85

2nd Feb 07, 11:10 AM

That will do,i don't really care..just pimp the defiler pl0x! I love him.

ReignInBlood

2nd Feb 07, 11:14 AM

I agree with ImmortalChaos. The BC doesn't do much against heavy infantry. It should do some knockback atleast. The BC is good for morale damage? Didn't know that. That must be what its good for, eh? Doesn't the Flamer suppose to do some morale damage? I'd like the BC become useful, otherwise, I wouldn't change anything else, in my opinion. Upgrade the flamer seems reasonable, although. The last I checked the flamer does 25 morale damage. that doesn't seem right.

Blakey85

2nd Feb 07, 11:27 AM

25 flamer moral damge seems right. All artiliry weapons do morale damge..and quite alot of it aswell. I stand that the AC needs a range increase,it doesn't get fired at all most of the time..it's dumb.

SubakuGaara

2nd Feb 07, 1:53 PM

The hard cap/cap useage SHOULD NOT BE CHANGED unless ALL the other tanks are.

The pred is NOT EVEN the weakest T4 tank, the LLR is. 3 cap would mean chaos gets a stupid ammount of defilers alongside their preds, and 3 preds would mean CSM beats every other race in the T4 tank battle (bar krootox). All that is in order is a simple HP buff.

Seems you are right somewhat. DPSs for the tier 4 tanks to vehicle med class

181 pred annihilator 5820HP

219 chaos pred 4000HP

114 fire prism 6210HP

103 looted tank 5043HP

124 russ leman 5200HP

262 tau hammerhead 2700HP (heavy high armor)

Seems the chaos pred will lose to the Sm annihilator and the tau hammerhead, but will beat everything else (accounting for HP. Its easy, if I deal 40 percent more damage to you, the only way the fight will be even is if you have 40 percent more HP). Not bad at all. But the chaos predator will still be having a hard time doing so and will be winning by not much; which is good for overall balancing of the tier 4 tanks, but bad for chaos who's other tank is deficient in terms of performance. So you can look at it a couple of ways

ImmortalChaos

2nd Feb 07, 1:57 PM

Yeah. Now that I think about it 1000 extra HP would be enuough for the CSM pred to beat every other vehicle hands down bar the HH. Hell, looking at that I would say all it needs is its FoTM back and possibly a 200-400 HP buff.

Blakey85

2nd Feb 07, 1:59 PM

Defiler damnit! Discuss it. The predator is just a SM ripoff anyway >_< and he's pretty fine as it is. Just want FOTM back so it can really rips stuff apart with it's speed.

ImmortalChaos

2nd Feb 07, 2:03 PM

I think we've covered it really... The return of vehicle FoTM, slightly longer range on the autocannon, longer AoE on the flamer and perhaps a nice increase in the knockback power of the battlecannon will make the defiler a great all-rounder.

sypher_diaz

2nd Feb 07, 2:09 PM

the defiler looks awesome, i want people to fear it again. I second the FoTM and longer range ideas. The battle cannon is nice but its range is a bit short. By the time your in range for that you may as well just HtH then and smash them into the dirt.

I have not been in a big team game to try a defiler army with mixed ranged/assault stances yet. it used to be very effective, as the BC stopped the infantry running away from your cc defilers

SubakuGaara

2nd Feb 07, 3:18 PM

How does the defiler fare against vehicles? Anyone in favor of an HP buff to scale it into tier 3?

Blakey85

2nd Feb 07, 4:00 PM

SubakuGaara

2nd Feb 07, 4:13 PM

150/260 is cheap?

magicalcarpet

2nd Feb 07, 4:20 PM

The 30 range to the AC sounds good. I think we can call that defiler fixed. 35 range sounds too much..

CSM Pred needs to changes, those stats are for 1v1 against other T4 tanks. HH is imba and doesn't count. Pred puts in a fair account for itself but it has phenomanal DPS to other armour types. I mean, it shouldn't beat either the Lemon or the PA because I view them as AV tanks. Sure, pre-Projectiles Preds aren't viewed as useful but your opponent is going to get a very nasty shock if they change to Projectiles in the middle of the fight. Anyhow, I support no buff to it.

Blakey85

2nd Feb 07, 4:27 PM

Dunno if 30 range is gonna cut it,And yeah 150/260 or what ever is really cheap for that the defiler does,and that's alot.

Predator needs a minor buff if anything,not sure which.

SubakuGaara

2nd Feb 07, 5:05 PM

Anyhow, I support no buff to it
I agree. In a vacuum, the pred really does its job.

But I think in battle, at the tier 4 stage, the predator is in a bad spot as it has almost no support in the AV department, while all those other tanks will. Russ lemans may lose 1v1 to a pred, but a russ leman and a sentinel or a basilisk, or with a predator thats been hit with curse of the machine spirit will probably win and by quite a large margin. What I'm trying to say is that at tier 4, chaos can't support the predator nearly as well as other races can support their tier 4 tanks; this may lead to the predators speedy downfall despite its obvious AV punch. In a battle, its the only unit with a real AV punch, while say the russ leman will almost surely be accompanied by something. That is perhaps why a 300-600 HP+ either to the predator or to the defiler is needed: to offset the counter AV troops that will very well be supporting those tier 4 tanks, troops that chaos may not be able to fied. Do you agree or disagree? I could very well see someone disagreeing by saying "wait a minute! what about the horrors? The obliterators?"

Blakey85

2nd Feb 07, 5:10 PM

That's the horror's fault not the pred's fault. They should be buffed man. Beside you have like PSM and oblits. Defiler in melle does nasty damge aswell.

SubakuGaara

2nd Feb 07, 5:11 PM

Be a little clearer blakey85. What is the horrors fault? what should be buffed? Does the pred have good AV support, or is it fighting alone?

magicalcarpet

2nd Feb 07, 5:21 PM

Buffing a Pred for perceived inadequecies in other Chaos units is a bad way to go IMO.

People don't like building horrors because they aren't reinforcable but realistically, I think we should expect that they will be when the patch comes out. They can also deep-strike with 600+ HP of demon armour.. I think the Pred will be adequately supported. Also I think Horrors should have melee removed. Oblits can add some punch in a pinch as well.

Hirmetrium

2nd Feb 07, 5:21 PM

Im going old and senile, and as such this thread can run free until i bother to get off my ass and play DC again. have fun folks. I'll be sure to drop by!

Blakey85

2nd Feb 07, 5:25 PM

Don't worry hirm,i'll look for the thread ;) For chaos!

To be honest,i find horrors a very good unit..i don't know why people complain about them. I didn't use them against high armor that much so i can't tell. They'd be even better once they can reinforce.
Buffing the predator cause horrors ain't all of that makes no sense. What so people are going to skip horrors and use the OP predator to be as a war-in-a-can?

Edit - I watched their damge. I think it should scale with something.Like deamonic fire or that predator buff. Maybe even add in a buff.

tygereye

3rd Feb 07, 4:09 AM

"How does the defiler fare against vehicles" He does just fine with his claws. He's supposed to be a jack of all trades and yet the 25 range on the AC doesn't really allow that. He scales just well cause he can be very good against any target and he's pretty cheap. If anything the flamer could use a buff i guess.
If you manage to catch anything beside other CC walkers (which totally pawn defiler in CC) with its claws ya it's not bad.

But let's face the truth against any openent with basic micro you'll never catch non CC vehicules with the defiler due to slow movement, low life and bad pathing. So the answer is no the defiler isn't good AV at all. About the defiler being cheap it has to be cause right now it is by far the worst CC walker. So it's not that cheap for what it does. I am also for a longer range to the AC though.

About chaos AV, I think that the problem is that chaos has to rely mainly on horrors for AV (which aren't that great) while other races have a lot more AV options. That's why I am for an AV boost for the defiler in T2 and oblits (with a small cost increase for oblits) in T3, and a small buff to horrors (made able to reinforce in T3 and maybe(?) a small DPS Boost). Then chaos would have more AV options. To compensate I would lower a bit chaos AI : HB, plasma and zerk tech.

Another thing about chaos : chaos units don't have a lot of HP for their cost : CSM compared to Tacs (by a small margin but still), raptors compared to ASM, zerks compared to other T2 CC units , defiler compared to other walkers, PSM compared to AT (zerk might need a small HP increase after we nerf zerk tech, and defiler and PSM also, nothing huge though like +5-10%), oblits compared to termies (oblits cost a lot more but have only +100 HP) and preds compared to other T4 tanks.

So I think that to compensate chaos should have more well rounded units : defiler, pred (pred needs a small DPS boost against heavy infantry like +10%) and oblits. And better ubbers : the DP and the BT.

SubakuGaara

3rd Feb 07, 9:18 AM

or horrors could simply be scaled into tier 3 via upgrade. look at the damage firedragons put outin tier 3 and compare it to horrors. with the exarch, firedragons do about 45 DPS to vehicle med, while horrors do 25. The same is true of stealth suits...

sypher_diaz

3rd Feb 07, 9:23 AM

then just make it so the damage upgrade in the sacrificial circle for the PSM affect horrors as well. Buffing damage into tier 3.

Sorted. I like horrors i think they are a great AV unit, but i would like to reinforce them and get a bit more punch in tier 3. If a buff isnt what people want, because a DS AV unit would be too strong, lower pop and make them cheaper in tier 3. Like the orks get free sluggas, we can have cheap horrors.

SubakuGaara

3rd Feb 07, 11:47 AM

why does the chaos sorcerers teleport have a 240 second cooldown? that is just ridiculously long.

SirNick

3rd Feb 07, 11:58 AM

Blakey85

3rd Feb 07, 12:03 PM

Yeah 5 extra range is gonna bring it back to it's former glory.I'm pretty darn sure that it used to have like 30-35 range on that thing and it was AV based. Nick do me a favor and throw a lab and check if the stuipd thing actully fires it. It's supposed to be a jack of all trades,good at range and decent at melle,Yet i can only fire the BC,melle with the claws and flame around..The AC comes rarly into play and that's his ranged AI department. We can all agree that 25 range to anything that ain't tier 1 infantry is piss poor and just wrong -_-.,i'm better off just getting into melle with that.

tygereye

3rd Feb 07, 12:49 PM

Thing about Horrors in Winter Assault was that they had 100% Fire on the Move accuracy, like Necrons do today. So they could dance well and still do damage. This and deep-striking made them fairly unique among the infantry AV options.

Since they've only got 10% accuracy on the move now, their utility has definitely been reduced.

I'd look perhaps at Horror accuracy first rather than grand sweeping changes to the Defiler, especially Defiler max range on its guns.
the problem isn't only a balance problem between the defiler and horrors. It is also the defiler by itself and chaos tanks in general.

Right now they are just not worth buying until T4 and I would gladly trade chaos tanks for SM ones for example. The pred being too costy (pop wise and res wise) for what it does and the defiler being a jack_of_all_trade with low HP which in fact suck against vehicules.

So bring back the pred to 4 pop (like all T4 tanks should be) and boost by 10% its dmgs against heavy infantry. Defiler should get a bit AV punch back (I would prefer to the AC but if not better CC AV will be ok, I guess...) and better range to the AC (30-35). Now should defiler get more HP or not is up to balance I would say, but not too much anyway (like +150 HP).

Blakey85

3rd Feb 07, 1:04 PM

Don't go that far. The defiler is really good as of now,i don't give a damn that people rather jump over it and get alot of infantry out instead. 3300 Is not low HP. He's good at range and in melle,that's very good for that amount of HP. It needs not more AV punch,his claws do just fine to scare anything away beside other walkers,and you got things to do against those. All he needs is a better range on the AC,around the 5-10 range,that is all...belive me. Chaos as a hell of alot of AV punch already,just the horros kinda lacking. Sorc does nice AB and some AV damge,PSM do good AV damge,Oblits do nice AV damge. Buff the Horros and we done.
Oh yeah and defilers do nice AV with their claws. Making his guns do AV damge aswell is just over kill.

tygereye

3rd Feb 07, 1:29 PM

I don't agree with you blakey, as already said many times in this post oblits really aren't impressive AV for cost. Sorc and lord are only good at AV against vehicule_high , against everything else they suck for cost.

Beside horrors only PSM are good AV (preds being not really cost effective AV too right now until T4). But they won't help horrors in T2 while the defiler could. Don't get me wrong, I don't want the defiler to pawn everything at ranged AV, I just want it to be descent (they should loose against WL with BL for example).

Finaly 3300 HP isn't low for a T2 ranged unit but seriously cripple its CC against other CC walkers which have more HP or better armor (Kanz) and also deal more CC dmgs. That wouldn't be that bad if the defiler could soften a bit enemy walkers from ranged before CC though. But right now defilers are useless against other walkers.

Blakey85

3rd Feb 07, 1:57 PM

It's damge in CC is just like 10-20 points lower then other walkers,Beside like you already know,in a walker fight they duel it out and both sides take damge,while the winner is left in red,beside maybe the killa kan...but it has it weaknesses.Agian you can't have a good ranged attck and expect to lose to a pure CC walker with a hair of a difference,It's just not right. The defiler costs less then the other walkers too.
Defiler is not useles against walkers. Yes alone,he would lose. But you got your 3 horror squeds to back him up and take down those dreads before they engage or soften them up REAL good. The other guy can do the same,but the defiler doesn't have to dance with an infantry unit,It will open it's deadly autocannon on them and his main battle cannon.

Also i think an AV defiler will be OP. There were times when the AC took apart trucks with ease,but he was too good... . AI roll balances him out and does very well at it. I don't want a medicore AV unit anyway,i'd just melle tanks if i must,not open the AC.

Jaimas

3rd Feb 07, 2:12 PM

Having done my homework recently in regards to Chaos, below is my findings for balance for each of the following units:

Cultists:
Give grenades a setup time and cut their stun slightly. Increase Plasma Gun accuracy to at least 45%; as of currently they miss far more than they hit, which, paired with the OMGWTFLOL-power of the Cultist GL, means they are almost never taken as weapons.

Horrors:
Damnit, make them Reinforcable. Return their 100% FOTM. This solves like 90% of their problems. Back this up with a late-game buff to AI damage or something tied to Daemonic Fire, so they scale a little better.

Defilers:
Fix FOTM accuracy. Increase late-game HP to keep them viable against higher-HP walkers such as Dreadnaughts and Kans, perhaps by tying an HP buff to Daemonic Mutation or Chaos Projectiles. This is important, because Chaos only get three vehicles.
Consider a late-game upgrade to buff ranged damage as well, though not to any dramatic degree (a slight boost in armor-piercing capacity, as opposed to an OMGWTFLOL increase, and an increase in Battle Cannon disruption).

Chaos Predators:
Increase HP somewhat. Wow, that was a minor inconvenience.

Obliterators:
Increase Lascannon damage vs. vehicle armor; fix hanging teleport bugs.

Chaos Sorcerer:
Increase Teleport range so it's actually worth something. Currently, the Sorcerer's teleport range is ridiculously short. In the time it takes for you to teleport to the edge, you can walk farther.

Chaos Marines:
If you're going to cut down the damage the Plasma Gun does, that's fine. But leave the Heavy Bolters alone. The reason the HBs get a boost is because they don't scale nearly as well as Space Marine weapons, which have superior cost-effectiveness. Plasma, conversely, does OMGWTFLOL damage. I have to agree with what one poster said; cut down its damage to appox SM levels, and increase its vehicle damage to compensate (make it a possible AV soft counter in a pinch, if not recommended).
Alternately you could do my missile idea, and give CSMs an actual AV counter, but hey.

There we go. Tune in next week when Blakey and I light an Eldar Warlock on fire just to see how loudly he screams. ^^

Blakey85

3rd Feb 07, 2:31 PM

How can you add FOTM to some units while leaving others with 10%? it will make huge problems.

Anyway,from the start:

Cultists grenades - I really can't say about these,cause i saw them on field just 1 time when i was playing eldar DRs and a friend of mine rushed in 5 cultist squeds with grenades. Now they were kinda annoying and effective against lone 2 DR squeds,but as soon as i got my FS out,i pretty much won from there. I didn't think the damge was too much,it was right for 20+ grenades flying at me.

Horrors - Agree with everything. I might lose the FOTM though.I'm kinda getting used to everything having 10% and it settles with me already. Just damge and reinforceable.

Defiers - Err FOTM agian...maybe if it doesn't get a range increase that will work but i rather have the range increased. HP could use a buff at tier 3.5 or something but they're cheap enough to be spamed like hell..and if they can melle and range they are highly effective. Ofcourse not to be used as a counter to the likes of SM predator.

Oblits - Agree.They kill infantry just fine but they just graze tanks.

Sorc - Yeah the teleport range is funny >_< Increase it or give it the 2 jump back.

CSM - I already said i think CSM are too good,espically if you consider them being invisable. Err i ain't gonna touch this agian though,read what i said like 3 pages before. I want my flamers back though!!!! Invisable flamers are mega sweet :/.

tygereye

3rd Feb 07, 3:16 PM

Guys will you stop with that 1.3 defiler??? (or 1.2? I can't remember)

It had 140+ DPS against most targets with its AC!!! That was the imba. It's like saying that the WW shouldn't be AI anymore cause right now it's too good at AI.

The AC on the defiler could really get a reasonable AV buff without being OP (like 50-55 DPS against vehicules nothing compared the 140+ in 1.3). If I am for an AC AV buff rather than CC AV buff it's because of the low HP, low speed and poor pathing of the defiler.

Blakey you are also totaly wrong about the defiler being that close to other walkers in CC :

- One Dread with 4780 HP and +50% CC DPS can kill 2 defilers one after another.
- One Kan due to the defiler poor CC dmgs against vehicule_high can do the same.
- WL, well WL just have to buy a BL to totally pawn defiler from ranged and will still win with its higher HP (after upgrade) and better CC DPS if the slow defiler ever manage to get into CC.

So basically you need 2 defilers to fight one enemy walker and you will still loose one defiler. Even if the defiler is a bit cheaper than other walkers that really isn't a fair trade. And as you somewhat said it yourself saying that you have horrors to back up your defilers isn't a valid point cause we all know that not only chaos have AV units (or AI units to pawn your horrors).

Blakey85

3rd Feb 07, 3:30 PM

Whatever dude,lets agree to disagree. Post what ever you want,i just see it differently.Thank god most of the other guys are with me on this. Go ahead..

Your main problem is that you want a defiler to come close to killing a dread,that alone will unbalance it...it gets it's uses.

SubakuGaara

3rd Feb 07, 3:37 PM

Having done my homework recently in regards to Chaos
How did you do your homework?

It's damge in CC is just like 10-20 points lower then other walkers,Beside like you already know,in a walker fight they duel it out and both sides take damge,while the winner is left in red,beside maybe the killa kan...but it has it weaknesses.Agian you can't have a good ranged attck and expect to lose to a pure CC walker with a hair of a difference,It's just not right. The defiler costs less then the other walkers too.
Defiler is not useles against walkers. Yes alone,he would lose. But you got your 3 horror squeds to back him up and take down those dreads before they engage or soften them up REAL good. The other guy can do the same,but the defiler doesn't have to dance with an infantry unit,It will open it's deadly autocannon on them and his main battle cannon.

In a vacuum, if a defiler and a dread lock up, the dread will walk away with 2580 HP left. In a vacuum, if a defiler and a wraithlord lock up, the wraithlord will walk away with 1114 HP. In a vacuum, if a defiler and a killa klan lock up, the killa klan will walk away with 1360 HP. In a vacuum if a defiler and a krotox lock up in battle, the krotox will walk away with 6084 HP. In any case, the vehicles left alive aren't exactly a hair away from death. The wraith lord is at 25 percent, the killa klan at 33 percent, the dread at about 55 percent, and the krotox... its a krotox. The biggest imbalance to me is the dread and the krotox. If I bought two defilers and set themboth on one dread, that dread would kill one of the defilers before he succumbs. If the defilers came one at a time, he'd kill them both. Freaking ridiculous. Perhaps the problem doesn't lie with the defiler, but with the dread. Debuff the dreads health? The defiler functions fine again the other walkers. A wraithlord is at 25 percent, a killa klan at 33. Those are manageable percentages. If that defiler had a horror in support, it would win, though not by much. However a defiler and a horror vs a dread will still lose. That is an issue.

Now if you don't have horrors and all you could kick out were defilers for av, then you're screwed. Not only are you paying more, but you're getting less. The 25 percents will add up and pretty soon you'd realize how screwed you are with the defiler are your av. I'm talking about tier 2 when the battle for ground can really get hot! 2 defilers lose to two wraithlords who are cheaper and then you have to deal with the pretty viable wraithlords, seeing as your av is gone.

Not to mention that every other race has better AV options than chaos... I'm just saying

Blakey85

3rd Feb 07, 3:42 PM

Like i said,you can't expect a defiler to come on top in a walker melle fight,it will lose. I'm pretty sure you're wrong with 33% on the kan aswell..it should have more HP left,it freaking pwns stuff. Anyway,defiler is a ranged unit mostly. It should melle stuff like infantry and tanks,Walkers are off limits. You see a walker ignore it or shoot it with support to even the odds. The defiler out does any of the others in a range fight and doesn't need an upgrade to do it,unlike them.

tygereye

3rd Feb 07, 4:02 PM

Subakku KK will have 50% HP left after killing a defiler not 33%. It deals twice more dmgs to the defiler than the defiler deals to its vehicule_high armor.

About the WL you don't factor in the BL, which is a big a problem for the slow, low life and bad pathing defiler : it would have to manage to get into CC with the faster WL, so WL with BL really pawn defilers.

I wouldn't compare the defiler to Krootox though. Cause the Krootox is pretty OP right now.

Your main problem is that you want a defiler to come close to killing a dread,that alone will unbalance it...it gets it's uses.

Not at all, as Subbaku said if other walkers had 25% (may be even 33% not sure about that though) life left after killing a defiler it would be ok. The fact that they can kill another defiler after that surely isn't.

Edit : you have totaly the right to disagree with what I say. The only thing is that I am a bit fed up with people saying OMG do you remember the 1.3 defiler??? Every time that I speack of a reasonable AV buff to the defiler AC. 1.3 defiler AC dmgs were totaly crazy against any target for a T2 unit and it surely deserved a serious nerf. But not to the point of making it deal nearly 0 dmgs to vehicules IMHO.

Blakey85

3rd Feb 07, 4:11 PM

WL with BL is a designed AV...why compare it?
On the other hand a defiler with a buffed up AC will make trouble to infantry squed. -_- Let's change this subject,you guys clearly have no sense or idea what you're talking about..lets just leave this like this. Errr someone suggest a topic :/

SubakuGaara

3rd Feb 07, 4:56 PM

The way I calculated it was like this

KK DPS to vehicle med is 187 DPS. Assuming the kk kills a defiler to deal 3300 worth of damage it will take 3300/187 or 17.64 seconds. In that 17.64 seconds, how much damage will the defiler give back? ASsuming only the melee weapons are in action and that the other weapons did neglible damage (ie battlecannon firing as they approach each other), the amount of damage the defiler does is defiler DPS to vehicle high x number or seconds (ie 17.64)

In that case. It works that the defiler does 93.1 DPS to vehicle high class. 93.1x17.64= 1642 Damage.

KK starts of with 3000 HP. 3000-1642= 1348Hp left. If you factor in the 10 percent HP upgrade teh kk gets, then its left with 1648 HP. But I didn't factor that in the first time. SOrry. I think though its somewhere between 40-50 percent HP left. Yeah thats pretty bad.

The cost of the defiler and the costs of the KK and the dreads are similar. Defiler overall is abotu 12 percent cheaper than a dread, but performs half as well. Kinda a lousy buy. Does the artillery and the battle cannon make up for that? I'd say no. Dreads can be equipped with a nice AI slug gun. Even at 1/2 the DPS output, I'd take a dread with a AI rifle over a current defiler simple because of the greater health.

For balance purposes, wouldn't it make for sense if this were true

1v1
defiler v dread= dread wins with 40 percent hp
defiler v kk= kk wins with 37 percent hp
defiler v wraithlord= wraithlord wins with 25 percent hp
defiler v krotox= ... lets not even talk about the krotox

What I'm trying to get at is, the defiler+horror should be able to handle any walker; as it is, right now the dread will kill the defiler and get to work on the horrors and kil them too (in a vacuum and if you don't run the horrors away). Both are near the best AV units chaos can field. Its ludicrous to think that I need 2 horror squads+ a defiler to knock down a dread. The costs alone are ridiculous compared to what the SM has to pay.

Here's a question. CSM squad with HBs+defiler+horror squad vs tier 2 SM squad (with any set of hws)+ dread.

Is there anyway for chaos to win? I think not. Yet defiler + horror is the best chaos can field...

Bakersmann

3rd Feb 07, 5:24 PM

as the defiler is more of a shooty walker, wouldnt been able to change its auto cannon to a AV weapon, be a viable solution?? The auto cannon does respectable damage to infantry, but it is realy lacking in any form of AV range punch. Like this the problem of the dread pwning 2 defilers could be overcome by upgrading them both to have AV ranged weaponry and dancing them round slightly. If you look at the other walkers, the wraith lord and dread can get AV ranged weaponry (i know notheing bout the orks so im not sure bout the killer kan), so what would be the problem in letting the defiler get ranged weapons. Although it might not be right in the fluff youcould change one of the defilers arms like the dreads so the dont become to overpowerd in some peoples eyes (keeping the auto cannon in this case though)

Blakey85

3rd Feb 07, 5:30 PM

Cause doing so dumbs down the game. Making a solution to every situation to any unit is just over doing it. You want AV,Use horrors or use your melle as AV!
Hey how about we give the SM predator a big ass bolter upgrade to add to his head? So he can be effective "vs all" so to speak. Every unit and it's purpose,I already stated the defiler's purpose in DC.

Do not use your defiler to melle other walkers,unless you intend on losing. CASE CLOSED. Stop making the game change to your own lazy-couch old strategy fart needs. There are other games for that.

tygereye

3rd Feb 07, 5:52 PM

Well I factored in the health 10% upgrade for KK. You are right, Subakku I shouldn't did that cause they only get it in endgame. But that means that in endgame KK are even better against defilers.

Funny thing blakey is that a few posts earlier you accused me to not listen to your opinions but you do excactly the same thing with us now. Nevermind let's stick to the topic.

Most people agree that the defiler should get some kind buff : more HP (not my favorite option, or just a bit, as I think that the defiler would be ok against infantry with an AC range increase and too much more HP could make it too good at AI) or an AV buff (ranged or CC) and/or better disruption from its BC (but I think that its ranged AI dmgs should be lowered a bit to compensate then).

drcole

3rd Feb 07, 6:12 PM

SubakuGaara

3rd Feb 07, 6:12 PM

Well there are subtle differences between simply an HP boost and a defiler cc av boost. An HP boost makes the defiler harder to kill by all units in the game. Raising the defiler cc av damage, makes the defiler harder to kill by vehicles who melee it. Both will achieve the effect of reducing, for example, how much HP a dread has left after killing a defiler. One however affects everyunit thats trying to take down a defiler.

In addition, I'd like to ask this. How much HP SHOULD a dread have left after fighting a defiler in CC? A wraithlord? A kk? Just in terms of percentages please.

Right now a Dread will have more than 55% HP left, a wraithlord about 25-30 percent, a KK somewhere from 40-55 percent, and so on.

I think for all fairness purposes, a defiler+ahorror should be able to take them all down. Reason is the cost of a defiler+horror far exceeds the cost of all of the walkers. I

tygereye

3rd Feb 07, 6:21 PM

I agree with Blakey. Defiler should get owned by pure walkers. It performs AI so much better than WL or Dread, so why shouldn't they come out on top by a decent margin (esp. since you are taking the brightlance into account, which is an AV upgrade)? Horrors I think do need to look at being reinforceable to compensate MAYBE but honestly the defiler 1.3 comparisons are fair because you are asking for a multi role unit that just does all jobs too well.
Well if WL with BL were ranged AV only and defilers were ranged AI only and if they would deal both closer CC DPS and had closer HP it wouldn't be a problem.

But I think that defiler pay for its so called versatilty with low HP and worse CC. But in the end it isn't that much versatil cause it's only effective at AI and seriously lakes at AV.

I also think that the 1.3 comparison would be fair if I suggested closer DPS to the 1.3 defiler but that really isn't the case. Remember 50-55 DPS instead of 140+. That makes a huge difference. And I don't think that that would make defiler too good at AV due to the large disadvantage of defiler in AV compared to other walkers right now.

SubakuGaara

3rd Feb 07, 7:21 PM

tygereye

3rd Feb 07, 7:43 PM

what were the dps for the 1.3 defiler?
again, this is really the set of questions to end all questions: How much HP SHOULD a dread have left after fighting a defiler in CC? A wraithlord? A kk? (in terms of percentages)
Like I said its AC was dealing somewhat like 140 DPS to most targets (vehicules and infantry). It was really a bull and a few defilers could wipe entire T2 armies. It really shocked people and rightly so. But the result is that when I speack of giving back just a bit AV punch to it, people start screaming around. ;)

To answer your question I think that dreads could deal with a small HP nerf, but that wouldn't change my mind on defiler compared to other walkers.

Jaimas

3rd Feb 07, 9:33 PM

I think the Defiler's Battlecannon is what needs the buff. The DPS is barely above a Bolter's.

Blakey85

3rd Feb 07, 9:41 PM

Yeah but it disrupts and breaks moral just fine..and that's basiclly what's it's for. You can,forsay buff it so as to stregthen the artiliry roll of the defiler,what do you think the DPS ~ should be? Remember the defiler BC also has a slow effect on it.

I still think that only the AC buff is in order though.Range increase,like i stated.

Jaimas

3rd Feb 07, 11:37 PM

I suppose that works.

SirNick

4th Feb 07, 12:05 AM

I maintain that current Autocannon range on the Defiler is fine, if the Fire on the Move accuracy was back at Winter Assault levels.

In Winter Assault I could use a pair or triplet of Defilers to chase down infantry. On the way into melee or pursuing fleeing squads they'd fire their Autocannons and auto-target further squads with their Battle Cannon. If they stopped to escape the ranged fire, the Defiler would melee the squad.

Removal of the accuracy on the move is what makes the Autocannon difficult to use at all.

Either way, I think a Autocannon range increase while still having 10% FotM accuracy is crummy for the Defiler anyways, because that means it's more vulnerable to infantry-based AV who have enough distance to set up as well as they're not in range to be meleed.

The_Guardman

4th Feb 07, 12:49 AM

Obliterators:
Reason: Basically, Terminators = AI with weak AV - so oblits, the equiv, should be AV with semi AI capacity.
Solution: Improve Obliterator AV damage. Damage against other targets is more than acceptable, however.
Evidence:Plenty around the thread, but they currently get owned due to slow movement, and apparently scouts can beat them in melee!

Should'nt you add the "buff Close Combat damage to that of a tactical or assault marine"?

Jaimas

4th Feb 07, 1:52 AM

Seconded, Guardman. With the removal of spammability, there is no reason NOT to increase its CC.

drcole

4th Feb 07, 2:07 AM

Well if WL with BL were ranged AV only and defilers were ranged AI only and if they would deal both closer CC DPS and had closer HP it wouldn't be a problem.

Not even remotely reasonable considering a WL with brightlance costs 130/325 to field while a defiler is 150/260. Even then without the holofield upgrade the defiler has more hp. It's going to be more durable in every situation except when going toe to toe with other walkers. Also the defiler puts out a tonne more dps at range v infantry than a brightlance is going to v vechicles anyway, so I fail to see how you can justify that without either a cost increase.

ImmortalChaos

4th Feb 07, 7:27 AM

Personally I wouldnt mind if normal termis had the same damage as normal termies but lacked stun and oblits the same damage as PSM but lacked their numbers...

(But thats just me, I'm crazy)

Energizer Bunny

4th Feb 07, 8:42 AM

Not the worst idea in the world actually. The only thing is while I suspect that would be fine for Chaos/SM balance it would make those two troop types far too powerful against other races

ImmortalChaos

4th Feb 07, 8:45 AM

Hell I'm all for all the ubers being wtfimba in both melee and ranged, and it wouldnt be so imba since you only get 1 or 2 squads, and if theyre all imba, no one is.

tygereye

4th Feb 07, 9:42 AM

Not even remotely reasonable considering a WL with brightlance costs 130/325 to field while a defiler is 150/260. Even then without the holofield upgrade the defiler has more hp. It's going to be more durable in every situation except when going toe to toe with other walkers. Also the defiler puts out a tonne more dps at range v infantry than a brightlance is going to v vechicles anyway, so I fail to see how you can justify that without either a cost increase.
Well the BL and the AC deal somewhat the same dmgs : like 74 DPS to heavy_med infantry for the AC and the same against vehicule_med for the BL.

Only the combo AC+BC allow the defiler to deal more dmgs to infantry. But the defiler has to close the distance to 25 range while the WL can shoot from 35 range.

You have also to remember that a WL with more HP (for cost) can deal dmgs longer than the defiler under fire.

So I would say that they are somewhat equal weapons. But still remains the problem that in CC an upgraded WL will win by large margin. A lot larger than the price difference between the WL+BL and the defiler. And I don't think that it's fair to compare an unupgraded WL to a defiler. Because holofield is available as soon as the support portal is made so we very rarely see unupgraded WL fighting other vehicules. So balance should be made around upgraded eldar vehicules.

Blakey85

4th Feb 07, 10:06 AM

Altor

4th Feb 07, 10:10 AM

Here is a new idea, because the Chaos Gods know we need one.

Currently Chaos have only 3 vehicles. However the Rhino is ultimately extremely limited in its uses. Leaving for most assaults and most quick smaller games, the Rhino being ignored.

I suggest giving the Chaos Rhino offensive weapons and capabilities. Many other races have transports with offensive weapons, why not the Chaos Rhino? The SM Rhino can stay un-offensive because they have so many other vehicles to back them up. Chaos on the other hand needs more firepower.

I suggest that two bolters could be attached to each side, much like those of the Pred (scaled down to the level a Transport should have). This way popping out a Rhino or two allows for fast transport of the mainly Infantry army of Chaos as well as giving some armored support. Now that the Rhino is on the field its smoke screen skill will now be played more often, giving Chaos the defense against ranged opponents that it needs.

Thoughts? I really think giving Rhinos offensive abilities would help to buff up the mechanized forces of chaos. Even if a little bit.

Blakey85

4th Feb 07, 10:12 AM

I want something else beside 2 bolters. Bolters are so dull already,everything has one.
Anyway i don't see that happening unless it's in the game already,if anyone can check if it is,i'd be great.

Altor

4th Feb 07, 10:15 AM

I agree that bolters can be quite dull, but that is the mainstay of the Chaos and SM armies. And a lowly Rhino wouldnt have some fancy chaotic fusion blasters of doom.

Blakey85

4th Feb 07, 10:17 AM

Yeah i was thinking more on the lines of flamers.Although that would piss the IG players >_<. Maybe it can have like spikes on the sides and it'd melle stuff.Can be a caster unit too.

fuggles

4th Feb 07, 10:50 AM

Chaos rhino has smoke, does it not?

Blakey85

4th Feb 07, 10:52 AM

Yeah. I can't say i dont like the smoke,it's an amazing and cheap ability.I was just commenting to altor when he said the rhino needs to become an offensive weapon,cause chaos only has the defiler and the predator to boot. It can be upgrades with duel missle launchers maybe for AV support >_<.

tygereye

4th Feb 07, 12:16 PM

74 damge to infantry is only compreable with 150 to vehicules...atleast as i see it. So the WL + BL is a bit weaker. Range should be increased.That's it.

Agian,defiler is meant to be AI. You can see it in game design. You can't change what they already intended to do with it,just improve it...thus range increase (or Fotm,but i can't see that).

Doesn't a vannila defiler destroy a vannila WL?
With BL with 150 DPS to vehicules I wouldn't even bother to use vehicules against eldars. I think that in fact AV DPS and AI DPS are somewhat the same. AV infantry don't really outdamage AI infantry for cost and they are still really useful.

About the defiler in the lua description I see it being good against any target and very good in CC. That's not really what it is now.

About your last question the answer is no and that's the problem : a WL with BL totaly pawn a defiler at ranged and without BL they still destroy it in CC with something like a huge 30% health left (not even in the red).

You had a good idea with ML on chaos rhino though. What chaos needs is AV support. They have more than enough AI support.

Blakey85

4th Feb 07, 12:22 PM

Yeha whatever...we sound like a broken record. Go post it in the suggestion box or something and we'll leave it at that.I just think,since the claws are already very good at AV,the AC needs to be AI. It's not effective munching up 1 infantry squed member at a time. Shooting is more effective. Also melle is more effective when dealing with tanks ( not walkers). Cause they either stay and shoot or they run away,thus making them useless.

Jaimas

4th Feb 07, 1:01 PM

In TT, Chaos Rhinos can use a Bolter/Flamer! They can also get Havoc Launchers, but frankly that could scare people.

But mounted Bolter/Flamers? That'd be pretty cool. Even if it did jack shit for damage.

Blakey85

4th Feb 07, 1:05 PM

K,then suggestion box guys. I'm too lazy to do it. Make a big flashy post so it will get noticed.

SubakuGaara

4th Feb 07, 2:21 PM

what about the chaos sorcerers teleport?
1)the range is ridiculously low. By the time it takes for him to teleport somewhere, he could have just walked there (i'me exaggerating slightly)
2)the recharge time is 240 seconds. Thats like 4 minutes. Is teleport that abusive that you need a 4 minute cooldown? Is teleport for the sorcerer as deadly as the orbital bombard? Both have 240 second cooldowns. yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me now. Teleport=orbital bombard. Lets cut that cool down time to like 40 seconds.

Blakey85

4th Feb 07, 2:25 PM

Agree on the teleport issue fully,just hope you're right with the 4 minuts timer. Should be around 45 imo.

ImmortalChaos

4th Feb 07, 2:30 PM

IMO, unless the range of it is buffed significantly I wouldnt mind it at 20 seconds, as it really gives him no advantage bar teleporting over unpassable terrain... But most terrain is bigger than his teleport anyways.

Blakey85

4th Feb 07, 2:32 PM

Blah,fine then bigger teleporting range will do too.He has some nasty building damge,i just don't want people whining " The sorc just DSed into my base and took out all of my generators before i was even close to my base" -_-.

Jaimas

4th Feb 07, 2:57 PM

Yeah, but the issue with the Sorcerer's Teleport, Blakey, is that as it stands, it's garbage. In the time it takes him to teleport to the edge of the ring, you can walk further than that and have a solid 1-second headstart on a Sorcerer that just teleported.

Blakey85

4th Feb 07, 2:58 PM

I know what the issue is Jaimas, I love chaos >_<. I just don't want people whining about it after we change it. To be honest i can live without the teleport but it doesn't mean it doesn't need a buff.Double the range then..or something.

Azmodael

4th Feb 07, 3:04 PM

May I ask why sorserer got/need teleport in the first place?

Blakey85

4th Feb 07, 3:07 PM

That's just one of his things...He doesn't need it for say,it's just good to have it.
Err i guess cause he's a 1000 HP feather weight. Anyway,i'v yet to see a game won cause of teleport sorc style. Only WS >_<.

SubakuGaara

4th Feb 07, 9:22 PM

Hey why does anyone get teleport? Its a nice feature. it works especially well on the chaos sorcerer (despite the long recharge). I use it to instantly close on ranged units like tau firewarriors. Other than that, its really not very useful. I just don't understand why it needs a 240 second cool down. He's one guy. He has 3 spells, and a decent melee attack, but he's one very low HP hero. A 40 second cooldown, to match the chains of torment makes more sense. The range is ok; by my eye, its about 2/3 that of the raptor jump, basically enough for the Sorcerer to escape from a sticky situation but not much else. Its not enough for harrasment for example.

Also can someone tell me why Obliterators can't be attached with a hero, but both terminator squads can? Why did they disable that feature in DC? Deepstrike issue?

Jaimas

4th Feb 07, 9:39 PM

He has it because he's ALWAYS had it. In Vanilla and WA, attaching a Sorcerer to an Obliterator squad was a common practice, and was the only main squad he could attach to that could teleport along for the ride. Back in Vanilla, Oblits could also melee well, and that made them the ideal thing to tie to Sorcerers.

As it stands, the ability has two big purposes should its range be increased to "not shit." One, you can harass a little with the Sorcerer, which isn't much of an issue because he's a fragile little thing, and two, you can have him flee.

Wow, complicated.

fuggles

5th Feb 07, 1:44 AM

Common theory on sorceror's teleport - he needs it for a cutscene in DoW.

magicalcarpet

5th Feb 07, 2:49 AM

Pfft, he can always attach to his Berzerker bitches so he doesn't die.

SubakuGaara

5th Feb 07, 6:55 PM

So consensus is:

Cut recharge time to 40sec to match the chains. 240 sec is just too much and teleport isn't that deadly of a spell for that.

Increase range a bit so teleporting is useful besides for just instantly closing on units.

Is that correct?

Chris

5th Feb 07, 7:29 PM

As it stands, the ability has two big purposes should its range be increased to "not shit." One, you can harass a little with the Sorcerer, which isn't much of an issue because he's a fragile little thing, and two, you can have him flee.

Generators don't fight back. :p

Cut recharge time to 40sec to match the chains

Yeah... so basically what this is really about is being able to cast chains more effectively. You want to be able to teleport after fleeing squads and have a sure-fire way to chain them 100% of the time. Chains is a game winning (or breaking depending on which side of the fence you're on...) abilitiy, I don't think we need to indirectly buff it.

Jaimas

5th Feb 07, 7:34 PM

Generators don't fight back. :p

Which is why I drop Horrors near them. :p

Look. I'm didn't even touch the issue of the retardedly long recharge. I'm asking for range that's longer than that. He's a tier 2 hero, and he gets a teleport that's so short ranged, it will never make a difference ever, because he will move farther in the time it takes to teleport him someplace than it will to walk their yourself. NL gets to teleport. So does the Mek. It hardly seems broken in the Mek's hands, and it wouldn't be for the Sorcerer, either.

SubakuGaara

5th Feb 07, 7:44 PM

Yeah... so basically what this is really about is being able to cast chains more effectively. You want to be able to teleport after fleeing squads and have a sure-fire way to chain them 100% of the time. Chains is a game winning (or breaking depending on which side of the fence you're on...) abilitiy, I don't think we need to indirectly buff it.

Not exactly chris. Chains already is like 100 percent hit and the casting range is huge, probably a little longer than his teleport range. The sorcerer doesn't have to be even relatively close.

What I was trying to get at is 240s cooldown is ridiculously long for an ability that moves the sorcerer from here to there. Thats all it does. And in reality, the teleport range is so low that the time it takes to instantly move him isn't that much greater than the time it takes from him to simply run over there. 240sec cooldown is the same kind of cooldown as orbital bombard. Is moving the sorcerer from here to there so deadly that it merits a 240 sec cooldown? I don't think so and so I propose a more reasonable cooldown of 40 seconds. It just happens to match the chains which also is also 40 seconds.

Blakey85

5th Feb 07, 7:46 PM

Damn you chris,why must you bust our balls? >_<.
Anyway i agree with chris and with jaimas...as in yeah the teleport needs a freaking buff,but like i stated,don't over do it.

Chris

5th Feb 07, 7:52 PM

You're forgetting the fact that teleport lets you travel over walls etc. but wtvr. I personally feel the sorc is the strongest thing chaos has in tier 2, almost everything a chaos player does seems to revolve around the sorc not due to necessity but simply because he's just so damn good. I'd rather not see him get any better "for free" is all.

SirNick

5th Feb 07, 7:53 PM

Firstly, 40-second recharge on a jump is absolute bollocks for balance.

Think about Vespids. Their jumps only need 30 seconds to recharge. Assault Marines take 45 seconds to recharge their jump. You practically spit in the air and you'll jump again.

The teleport is there so the Sorceror can get past small map obstacles and/or teleport out of a melee behind a meat shield. That's fine by me. Heck, the Sorceror teleport as is can go straight through the mountains on Battle Marshes, giving the Sorceror free access to the enemy base. That's enough range right there.

The teleport changes really seem something like "well, this is kind of a long time, so let's just reduce it so it looks nice." It hasn't been broken and abused, so I don't think we should change it much.

EDIT: Wow, I said pretty much the same thing Chris did just now. Heh.

Chris

5th Feb 07, 7:59 PM

Mwuhaha I finally got 1 up on Nick. :D

Just to expand, I don't think I'm busting balls here. I do find this thread quite scary though as from my personal experience chaos is fucking terrifying to fight against. They have cheap econ and tech fast which is a brutal combination in DC, buffing them isn't an idea I'm very fond of. I think Hirmetrium made this thread prematurely and formed a lot of his opinions without really playing the race enough or adapting to the DC playstyle.

ImmortalChaos

5th Feb 07, 8:11 PM

Chris brings up a good point- Chaos are hardly in need of buffing at all.

Blakey85

5th Feb 07, 8:11 PM

Well yeah,chaos do have some advantage in the teching wars,but we're taking care of that too,ain't we? There is a thread about it.

Like i said i can live without the teleport...but it has zero combat uses as of now. I don't think anyone would go "Zomg WTF" if we increase the range atad so i can actully teleport into a base or 2 without standing in it already >_<.

Only OP thing about choas,which ain't bugged,is fucking zerks. They have way too much HP and attck power for cost.

Edit - IC,can't you see we barly buffed them? Is adding 5 range to a defiler AC that much of a buff? So many i can use it without having second thoughts.
What else? We barly buffed anything else..

ImmortalChaos

5th Feb 07, 8:17 PM

Theres a lot more buffs in the OP than just more range on the autocannon...

Blakey85

5th Feb 07, 8:18 PM

Point them out.

SubakuGaara

5th Feb 07, 8:22 PM

Well I understand the sorc is quite useful in tier 2. But 1 jump in 4 minutes? Moving the sorc from here to there doesn't merit such a ridiculous cooldown time. At least 60 seconds then.

ImmortalChaos

5th Feb 07, 8:25 PM

Cultists, horrors, preds, both elites, the DP and the BT are getting buffed.

Cultists, meh, it's not much but horrors already have the best armour of any unit in T2, better DPS than TBs and DS, I dont quite see why they need buffs... If anything they should make deleting horrors give 100% cash back so you can delete squads that have lost members without much worry. Preds are one of the best t4 tanks. In T2 they are only weak in that you need to get vehicle upgrades to get them. The DP needs a buff as he is definately overpriced, but the BT is hardly the worst uber, and IMO the only area he lacks in is that crappy degen.

Chris

5th Feb 07, 8:28 PM

Horrors - reinforce
Predator tank - cap reduction + damage buff
Defiler - damage buff/hp buff
Possessed - researches combined ergo cheaper + faster
Oblits - AV damage buff
Daemon prince - add 3500hp (W T F?)
Bloodthirster - degeneration removed + damage buff
Chaos armoury - cheaper
Chaos Marines - given HW options back.

I know that hirmetrium added things like "increase cost by..." or "reduce damage by..." but in all honesty I don't think they make enough of a difference and in the long run you're just beefing the units up.

Blakey85

5th Feb 07, 8:30 PM

Ah god...ok i'll comment on that tommorow,i'm off to bed >_<. Cya *cough* whiners *cough* ;)

SubakuGaara

5th Feb 07, 8:58 PM

Yeah some of those proposed buffs are over the top to me, but some are legit. I made a list below. I particularly like the horror reinforce. In fact, I think its ridiculous that the core of this game has reinforcing squads. Why would they go away from something that works so well? Broadsides are disliked, horrors are disliked, it just doesn't work well. Just make all squads that are multimember reinforce. Simple as that.

Over the top
Possessed research combine- they already combined like 8 upgrades into 2
Daemon prince buff- he's plenty strong, just not enough to merit the price. Solution isn't to make him stronger though
Pred tank- pred damage is already 2x most tier 4 tanks. He will win most battles vs tier 4 tanks with about 1000+ Hp. He's fine. Drop cap so I can have more crappy defilers if it comes to it
Bloodthirster damage buff- why??? He rocks tier 4 tanks. His degen is a pain, but most people fight their tier 4 stuff to the death anyway. Maybe instead, make him alittle cheaper to summon each time (ie 5 percent cost decrease each summon).
Armory: armory price is just right. Chaos armory has some good stuff. Besides we don't want to see HBs too early...The cost right now makes me have to make a hard decision. If i'm shelling out the 200/75 then it means I'm committing...
CSM HWs: the flamer is with the raptor. if you want to flame buy a raptor. I really don't want to see the rockets back. It's not really chaosy... but maybe thats just me.

Good suggestions
Defiler buff: starts at tier 2, performs a little under tier 2, and is expected to fight well in tier 3? Hmm... give him something to scale him. He's doesn't have to be great!
Oblit av: to support chaos AV in tier 3. Right now without preds, chaos is a little undermanned in my opinion.
Horror reinforce: the core of this game is reinforcing infantry. WHy go away from something that works so well? Broadsides are disliked and avoided, horrors are kinda the same way. Just go back to the bread and butter of the game.

Blakey85

5th Feb 07, 8:58 PM

Ok,On to commenting. Anyway stage by stage:

Horrors : Reiforce. I dunno,i find this silly also. I rather see their damge buffed. Anyway,since that not going to happen then something bloody hell should. We can agree that an infantry squed advantage over tanks and the like is that they can reinforce while it can't. Horrors lack that,although they were lacking that up from the vannila. It just seems like they could use it...like when you end up with a 2 men horror squed that costs you 3 pop and you just can't bring yourself to delete.

Predator buff - Hahaha...Dear old harmi. He just added that after he saw it. The predator is FINE! Maybe a little bit more HP,like 300 or some can be good cause while it outdamges stuff it's pretty sucky without the buff and the "out damge" isn't that great..lets be real.

Defiler - I think only the AC needs another 5-10 range. 25 Range is piss poor! It's a jack of all trades yes,but i need to be standing on the victim to bring it to fire. How dumb is that? >_< Might as well chuck it and make me melle stuff like other walks,which i end up doing anyway cause of the sucky range. Hp buff not in order! GLASS CANNON!.

PSM - They are fine! When was the last time you saw unupgraded PSM on the field? That never happens. You got like 1-2 sac pits that by that tier are meant to research the buffs....i can't see why they need a buff.

Oblits - Yeah their AV damge sucks. I mean their AI is good and all,but other rangy units shoot them up <_<. Atleast give them some modrate AV damge. Now it's just an animation really..the damge isn't present unless it's a speeder rush.

DP - Yeah,i find that funny too. The deamon prince ain't supposed to be another uber! Get that into your fat skulls! He's just a side kick. I see him busting up fire prisms and WS real good,why buff him even more? He ain't that cost effective sometimes,but still. Maybe 1000 HP bonus,tops.

BT- Actully agree with this one...he's pretty sucky for a uber. Think only the degeneration needs to go though,he's supposed to be a fat piece of meat anyway...his damge is secondery.

Armoury - can't comment...dunno what to even say.

CSM - I only want the flamer back if anything. The bazooka is a freaking tankbusters ripoff!!! You got horrors for crying out loud!!!

Anyway this list is made by the last couple of pages when people trying to pimp the bling bling out of freaking chaos! Chill,play the game and come back to post...Chaos is fine,just needs some tuning (debuffs and buffs alike).