[DC 1.51] Grey Knights

[Energizer Bunny]

What is the general opinion of the Grey Knight units in DC?

My thoughts are:

Positives
+ Psychic inquisition is an excellent ability (at least against lower tier units) with surprising longevity
+ Speed into battle hugely effective to cover ground
+ Obviously pretty immense in CC vs most infantry.

Negatives
- Hugely expensive. Not necessarily in req terms but the power cost is just huge. No idea why it was deemed necessary to have such a huge power cost (spam prevention?)
- Pathing seems horribly bugged. Getting them to retreat is just a joke.
- Controlling them in general is a real problem, particularly once the charge ability is researched. I would actually prefer this to be a selectable ability (rather than an active one) to give some kind of control over when they charge into battle. I find the only way to keep a handle on this is to have them on F2/F7 until I need them

Solutions:
* Increase req cost to 240 and reduce power to 120. Individual unit costs to be adjusted accordingly
* Make charge ability require selection (much like jump troop abilities)
* A small HP buff in T3 would be nice, given how quickly they melt to ranged fire.

[Hirmetrium]

I gotta agree that their power cost should be reduced. I think 180/120 is far more reasonable, with 60/40 reinforce.

[Noble]

I disagree, the GK are one of the most powerfull melee units in the game, and need to cost alot. They are immune to morale damage, which is huge. They have their psycher ability, which is essentially a space marine version of eldrich storm. They get furious charge, which is like diet feral leap. They are effective against pretty much anything, and do double damage to daemon units.

They should be expensive.

[The_Freakster]

the GK i use reguarly espiceilly against chaos to tie up any horror squads

[Hirmetrium]

I disagree, the GK are one of the most powerfull melee units in the game If I recall they have 500 HP, which is less than bezerkers. their like a WA seer concil without conceal.

[Noble]

"If I recall they have 500 HP, which is less than bezerkers. their like a WA seer concil without conceal."

They are still one of the most powerfull melee units in the game. I dont see your argument.

[Exequy]

They kill Krootox! You hear me? THEY KILL KROOTOX! D8

*laughs* Leave the Grey Knights as they are, they already give the Space marines an increadible advantage over the Chaos space marines (poor daemons) AND Tau kaunyon martial path (I've seen a single squad of grey knights kill krootox and a greater gnarloc. One after the other. Ouch). Oh, and did i mention they do incredibly well against Eldar avatars too? For some strange reason?

Trust me, the grey knights are fine as they are. O.o

[Hirmetrium]

They are still one of the most powerfull melee units in the game. I dont see your argument. my arguement is that THEY ARE NOT one of the most powerful in the game. their some of the worst melee units in the game if outmassed, have limited numbers, terrible armour class and can beat all daemon units easily<does not make them the best.

[Noble]

Well i guess i'll just have to agree to disagree with you Hirmetrium, I've had my GK defeat hoards of kroot, orks, banshees, flayed ones, assault marines, raptors, etc etc.

You're right, they will lose if they are outnumbered by berserkers, but that hardly means that they are some of the worst melee units in the game.

[Exequy]

Well, no one said Grey knights should be a stand-alone melee powerhouse. I treat them like a heavy melee support unit. Throw a chaplain into the fray for good measure. Maybe an assault marine squad or two. The grey knights are not an end in itself, they are the means to an end.

[Hirmetrium]

Well i guess i'll just have to agree to disagree with you Hirmetrium, I've had my GK defeat hoards of kroot, orks, banshees, flayed ones, assault marines, raptors, etc etc. maybe because they took them a squad at a time?

bezerkers are a tier 2 melee unit, costing FARRRRRRRR less than GK's. they always outnumber them with squad numbers.

[Noble]

No they did not take them a squad at a time. Just because zerkers are better than grey knights doesnt mean that grey knights are crap. Keep in mind, zerkers dont get furious charge, and they dont get emporers wrath. Also, they arent nearly as adept at murdering heroes. Try sending a grey knight squad with furious charge up against any hero.

They will blindside the hero with FC and "straight up merc that sucka" to use the vernacular.

[Hiroshi_Tea]

i have to say
i hate GKs
they tear my guardsmen and CS a new one every time

[Hirmetrium]

ah yes, grey knights against heros i something entirely different :P

furious charge sucks against commanders, since it knocks them back. its pretty nice vs everything else.

the spell pwns mass entirely.

GK combat skills are subpar.

[Noble]

I think you're just too used to zerker rapeage :p Zerkers are pretty much the best melee in the game, except for assault termies.

[Hirmetrium]

No, since i have relatively litte of it. My problem is that zerker cost > GK cost, and GK's are overall worse.

[Jandau]

Tip about controlling GK: Take them off the default "yellow" stance and put them in "blue" stance (where they don't move unless told to). This way you won't have them charging around needlessly, and if you forget them for a second they'll be firing off their guns which can do some nice damage as well.

As for using them, I'm a Tac user myself and the GKs are perfect for me. I keep my GKs next to my tacs or a bit back firing their ranged. When something starts getting close I just point the GKs at it and WHAM! stuff goes flying, my Tacs stay safe for a while longer. And the inquisition is just beautiful against any light infantry, even FWs get a good kick from it.

All in all, one of the best new units (along with the Gitz), an excellent escort for your FC of Lib, and if supported by a Chap they perform even better.

Worth every penny. An extra 50-100 health wouldn't hurt, but hey... ;)

[TheDeadlyShoe]

GKs vs FOs: lolololol.

Seriously though, GKs kick a lot of ass. I think their power cost is warranted. Especially considering Psychic Inquisition.

[PheonixIgnite]

What it comes down to is that GK's are a unit that pwns when they get their way, but are pretty useless when countered properly. If your opponent is good enough to focus fire on them early, they you will have lost a bunch of resources without gaining much. The rush upgrade helps a lot with this, but most skilled players are still going to focus fire on them as soon as the GK's make it into CC.

[Exsus]

They always die faster than scouts. Their cost is fine and pretty much everything but health. A health boost would be real nice. They have 800 health right now, wouldn't hurt to have a point or reseach to raise it to 900-1000.

[Noble]

"What it comes down to is that GK's are a unit that pwns when they get their way, but are pretty useless when countered properly. If your opponent is good enough to focus fire on them early, they you will have lost a bunch of resources without gaining much. The rush upgrade helps a lot with this, but most skilled players are still going to focus fire on them as soon as the GK's make it into CC."

Thats the case for pretty much any specialized unit. They are good in certain situations, but can be countered if you use the proper unit types. That righ there is pretty much the entire philosophy behind DoW.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Plus, you can avoid that by keeping the GKs with your Tacs. Charging them in solo, sure they're gonna get killed.

[Ragnarok]

Yeah I think atleast a late game health boost would be nice.

I think that their large cost would be worth it if they had Heavy_High armor instead of Med. And though it's not necessarily related to game balance so much, as we all know how fluffy DoW is, the GK do tend to have better power armor than regular marines.

Oh, and am I just blind, or does adding a FC, Libby, Apoth or even a Probe make the GK no longer do their furious charge?

[EzyKill]

I find GK too expensive early game and too weak late game... they die so easily...

[TheDeadlyShoe]

GK Are tougher than normal marines. Heavy high isreally heavy stuff like terminators and crisis suits...

[Akathrielah]

I disagree, the GK are one of the most powerfull melee units in the game, and need to cost alot. They are immune to morale damage, which is huge. They have their psycher ability, which is essentially a space marine version of eldrich storm. They get furious charge, which is like diet feral leap. They are effective against pretty much anything, and do double damage to daemon units.

They should be expensive.


Their immunity to morale damage and psychic inquisition spell are their only saving grace at the moment. Furious Charge is meh compared to the jumping, and they are ridiculously easy to kill. The fact that they can kill krootox or other daemons become moot when a single squad of FWs/HB or Plasma rines/Reapers/etc. tosses your 360/360 unit out the window.

I much rather just save that req and power (360/360 =/) and just tech to tier 3. Whirlwind and ATs ftw.

[[[H]]Striker]

GK's are perfect the way they are, what i'm hearing is that you guys are just ranting about how GK are so annoying and useful, well you know what you do to those 1 man army squads? You turn them into swiss cheese with a bunch of Plasma clips. Case Closed... Basically if they are so annoying, that means that your enemy knows how to use them and you just need to learn to rank your enemies squads and figure out which is that critical squad they must have to stop their offense.

[Energizer Bunny]

Oh, and am I just blind, or does adding a FC, Libby, Apoth or even a Probe make the GK no longer do their furious charge

No, you're not blind. Furious charge (like feral leap) is effectively just a jump pack in disguise. Attach any other unit to the squad and they will no longer use it (lowest common denominator applies for movement speeds).

[nemarsde]

Not disagreeing with you, EB, but I could've swore I saw my Grey Knight squad with Librarian attached do the Furious Charge. What happened was they ran ahead of the Librarian -- who either got hung up on other units or was just slower -- then did it.

Anyway, I'd just about written off Grey Knights for use against anything other than Chaos. But this talk of damage vs all Daemon armour (not just on daemonic units) and Light Inf has got me inspired. Thanks. They are very frail, but that shouldn't be a problem if they're well supported by ranged units. A specialist unit should reward special play.

I'll give them a second chance. ;)

[KopiKat]

I am fine with their cost, I just wish they could survive a little longer.

Give them 1000 HP and they will be appropriately balanced. Hell you can even make them more expensive.

At least this way they can hold a candle to pariahs, which currently are the best melee unit in the game, period.

-KK

[Energizer Bunny]

Not disagreeing with you, EB, but I could've swore I saw my Grey Knight squad with Librarian attached do the Furious Charge. What happened was they ran ahead of the Librarian -- who either got hung up on other units or was just slower -- then did it

Hmmm.... not in my experience, but can anybody else confirm this? Would be very interesting to know as I quite often have them running around by themselves, and it would be very useful to be able to attach a skull probe without condemning them to death

[axeslay3r]

Yes you can still do the charge with a hero attached , the hero just lags behind and then catchs up after the charge hits

[SquaLdon]

They don't really scalle at all into the later tiers, and I personally think their individual cost is just too friggen heavy. Maybe leave the squad itself at 180/180, but chop the reinforce to like 60/30 or so. Give em an upgrade in T3 somewhere as well.

[Energizer Bunny]

As far as I'm concerned it remains a better option to put the investment into vehicles. 5 grey knights use as much power as a bloody dreadnaught

[Jandau]

Attach something to the GK and they will still charge. Don't know where you got the idea they stop...

[PheonixIgnite]

Attach something to the GK and they will still charge. Don't know where you got the idea they stop...
As pointed out previously, attaching a unit to a squad often interferes with that squads abilities, this has been the case since DOW first came out. There are only a couple of exceptions and GK charge seems to be one of them.

[Slyfe]

Thier nuke alone makes them worthwhile...if you dont want to spend 360/360, dont reinforce them and keep them on the hold position stance. The nuke is the same with or without a full squad and tier 1.5 (when i usually get them) it owns all other infantry. 180/180 for a long lasting nuke that drops infantry like a bad habit and keeps comming back so long as you dont waste them by letting the die is very much worth it.

[SirNick]

For what it's worth, Inquisition is really, really awesome.

It does 160-170 damage every 2-4 seconds or so for 25 seconds for a total of 10 hits over that period to infantry. It'll do 50% of that (still a lot, 80-85 damage per hit) to vehicles. It's in a radius of 8. Recharge is two minutes.

That's better than Orbital Bombardment, for infantry. OB does ~100 damage per hit to infantry, ~400 per hit to vehicles, 15 strikes total. OB recharge is 4 minutes on a global timer.

On a related note, Smite does 240-320 damage in a radius of 10 and recharges in 60 seconds (less with Commander Veteran upgrades). This applies to everything besides buildings -- Commanders and vehicles included.

Combine Inquisition with Smite and if you can pin some units down you can insta-gib much larger infantry forces in Tier 2, well, nearly instantly!

Tac and Chaos marines have just shy of 500 HP after buffs, Kroot have 600 total after max Cannabalize, FWs have 340, ASMs have 560, Zerkers 610, Spiders / CoW 'Shees at 600-700. Warriors have 710 HP after first buff, Nobs 865, but Boys, Gits only max at 450 or so.

Although, I think Inquisition does friendly fire. Can someone confirm?

EDIT: Confirmed!

So, buyer beware.

[Slyfe]

It definatly hits allies

[PheonixIgnite]

If that's the case, then there really isn't much point in using GK's at CC troops (unless absolutely necessary. 5 storm bolter's will be much more effective than 5 plasma marines and the cost is pretty similar, and basically 250 power for psychic inquisition.

Tacs
190+50=240 req
40/10 * 5 = 200/50
=400/50

GKs
=300/300

[SirNick]

Also, the Furious Charge does 100 damage upon contact, but only if the enemy is knocked down. It'll be 40 seconds between charges, so that's something to think about.

More food for thought.

[sappers317]

the GK do need to be buffed when it comes to their HP. SC in WA sux and now their pretty bad ass, the same needs to be done to the GK (they are ELITE SM). an upgrade in tier 3 to pump up their HP, at least 1000+

[Kratos]

Once you hit tier3 -> BÄM Hitpointupgrad
Once you hit tier4 -> BÄM slight Hitpointupgrade + Armourupgrade

Greyknights should only be a little weaker than ATs, GK are really the emperors finest! :read: :p
Fluffwise not for balance :beer: :agree:

[Jaimas]

Grey Knights rock. They are better than a normal marine in every aspect, are deadly in melee combat, are fearless, boast an awesome psychic attack, and are lightning-fast. In conclusion, they're the best possible squad to tie a Force Commander to. ;D

[SpaceHamster]

I'd say reduce their squad by 2 and than make them all more powerful (as tough as Assault Terminators and better melee damage against everything except demons). That plus some upgrades once you hit tier 3/4.


Greyknights should only be a little weaker than ATs, GK are really the emperors finest!

Yeah I'd say fluffwise, regular Grey Knights are probably better than terminators, especially in melee.

[Dorkdav]

Why are Grey Knights tier 2 units? What besides horrors are deamons at tier 2? Too me everything about them says tier 3, right down to their power cost. I figure Relic thought tier 3 was just too crowded with terminators to put them there.

[SpaceHamster]

Ideally I'd want them in T3 but they fill the gap in T2 pretty nicely for space marines... I dunno, I've got them in T4 for my mod with veteran squads substituting in T2.

[Spinefarm]

Not being able to counter lone GK's easily makes daemon units obsolete against SM. This also means the *only* CC unit IG has. IMO yes, they're expensive but definately worth it if you don't use them as termies.

[HaXxorIzed]

Personally I'd just like to see their squad size increased to 8, as that'll give them the CC punch they need in tier3.

[Energizer Bunny]

The only thing which keeps them as a T2 unit is their low HP. If they were buffed HP wise I suppose they would have to go up a tier to balance them.

Inquisition is a great ability but it's FF means you really have to think about how you use it. Especially when your grey loose canons finish off whatever they're dealing with and then furious charge into cc with what you just cast it on. I will acknowledge some serious satisfaction to casting it on a squad of guardsmen though and watching the entire squad fall down dead. When it works, it really is great.

But still.... inquisition and furious charge and all the other factors all come a distant secord to the immense power cost (in T2 when a marine army really really needs power) for a unit with such low HP. Given the choice between a full squad of GK's and a Dread + 160 spare req, it's a complete no brainer for me right now.

[Hiroshi_Tea]

the FF on the ability isn't exactly something to worry about
since most SM are already really high HP

[Energizer Bunny]

The point is that the Grey Knights, for cost, don't. And in reality it's going to be them that charges into the middle of it.

[Doomtrain08]

I also think that Grey Knights, for cost, are not very effective. Spending that many resources (180 power for just buying squad in T2) for a melee unit that gets beat by Berzerkers (much much less cost) and doesn't compare favorably to many others does not make much sense. Also, their ability is a nice touch, but who in their right mind would leave their troops in the vicinity? The initial hit can only kill low T1 hp units. Finally, they are a horrible scaling unit, as in later tiers Psychic Inquistion packs less of a punch on higher hp units, and their damage and hp is not buffed at all.

I see two ways to make them a more viable unit:

1. Allow them to reinforce to an eight man unit, and add a justicar that deals much more melee damage as well as giving all units a small (50) hp buff. This will give them more punch that they need. If necessary, let this be a T3 upgrade.

2. This is definitely a T3 upgrade: Research Terminator weapons and armour for them, changing their armour type to Heavy High. Buff damage as well. This may have to be tweaked to avoid OP, but at least it will justify their currently absurd cost.

[Chris]

Inquisition is a great ability but it's FF means you really have to think about how you use it.

I'm pretty sure this is a bug.

[Noble]

Why would it be a bug? Most area affect damage spells do friendly fire. Eldricht and OB come to mind. Personally, I think the power cost is justified. No they cant spearhead an attack, and tank all the hits, like assault termies can. But they are great for harrassing your enemies flanks in an allready raging battle. That combined with Inquisition makes them a flat out awesome support unit to have with your TACs at tier 2. Used properly, these guys can be deadly.

[The_sleeper1]

Ifind that GK's are real nice earily T2 but by late T2 earily T3 they can be countered too easy with ranged DPS to justify there cost. Sure they can beat a DP if you leave him hang out with the GK's with out a shaparone but with some CSM w/plasma your GK's are screwed. I think they need better armor but a slight reduction in damage to demons to account for increased staying power so the net gain is they last longer versus other types of units but are not more dangerous to "monster" type armor.

[Energizer Bunny]

I'm pretty sure this is a bug.

I agree. It's a completely antagonistic ability.

[Hirmetrium]

if they were reduced in cost to 60/30 it wouldnt be so bad, but losing that to your own skill....pfffff.

[them apples]

If I recall they have 500 HP pretty sure they have somewhere around 800 hp, but I could be wrong.

And The GK ability is insane they can't be considered weak.

[Energizer Bunny]

There is weak and there is weak for cost. They aren't the former but they are the latter.

For the cost of a full GK squad I can equip almost 2 full HB squads and still have over 200 power left, which will cover a hellfire or go 2/3rds of the way to a full dread.

In exactly what circumstance is that force going to be inferior to GK's?

MAYBE vs Kroot, but that's it.

[HarmlessPenguin]

and I believe they have 500+ base hp +300 from the bionics upgrade bumping them up to 800+

[Energizer Bunny]

Which is virtually pointless as it's madness to invest in GK's until you have bionics anyway. They absolutely need a similar boost in T3 to put their HP north of 1000. In fact, why not just buff their HP and damage and make them a T3 unit. The cost is much less of an issue then. There is nothing in T2 which they are really useful for fighting other than Kroot (which is a balance problem with Kroot). For everything else just go ASM if you want melee.

[HaXxorIzed]

That would be quite a nice compromise. It would also give GK a legit reason to utterly dominate daemons as they do now, but would also make them extremely potent in cc vs other base cc specialists.

[Sunstrider]

Oh, and did i mention they do incredibly well against Eldar avatars too? For some strange reason? -Exequy

This is because the Avatar is a Demon, simply another incarnation of khorne the blood god.

So why is it that Grey Knights cannot detect cloaked units? In both game and fluff wise they should be able too - THEY ARE PSYKERS.