Balancing Raid.

[Dominans]

In my humble oppinion, raid is just a little too overpowered. It renders infantry useless for the armor commander and can cap points all over the map giving the axis a very hard time.

Solution: Give the light vehicles a 50% time penalty when capping points. Raid will still be useful but now the axis will have more time to react aswell as giving infantry back the role as the main capper.

[Vicious_CB]

I agree, raid can be very tough when gotten early enough. With a riflespam and jeep/raid combo your opp can cut you off fairly easily. Sure you can place MGs at key points but you are limited to what you can guard since jeeps are too fast

[Blacksand]

Raid is balanced currently.

You would prefer to see that Quad .50 continue to shoot and rape your garrisoned MG while capping that point?

The simple fact is that infantry will ALWAYS be needed, even and espicially if you go armor company.

Yes, it's an annoyance. However, the fact that it's limited to fragile armor and the fact that the vehicle loses it's ability to fire while capping balances it out. The CP cost alone is nearly prohibitive.

[evotech]

its the only reason i go armor really, its balanced

a single Panzeerfaust basicly almost 1 shot anything that can raid so

in diffrence from stickys, wich needs to be thrown atleast 3 times to kill a puma

[Vicious_CB]

a single Panzeerfaust basicly almost 1 shot anything that can raid so

WTF NO!!! C'mon it takes 2 shots to kill a jeep at full health much less a AC or Quad

[evotech]

lal, you must be kidding, it takes a single shot at a jeep.

1 shot at an AC brings it to like what 10% hp? and since the AC has a whopping 1 against infantry you can finish it with guns =P

buff allied AC!

[Vicious_CB]

I'm sorry evo but you are dead wrong

http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?p=1913500#post1913500

[0mar]

Faust does anywhere from 30% to 60% damage on light vehicles. I've had fausts that hit M8 right in the back and bring it down to 10-15% health and I've had fausts that hit halftracks and bring it down to 75% health.

[Blacksand]

When I see an allied AC, I usually laugh. If I don't already have STuG's on the field, I will shortly and 100 muni later with a couple Volks squads, it's toast anyway.

A combined attack - both squads firing at once, if they both hit, will kill the AC. As for jeeps, why are you wasting 50 muni on a jeep? Much easier to simply shoot it.

[evotech]

the allied AC is so stupidly underpowered

ATLEAST give it a 2 against infantry and match the Axis puma a little more. i mean... jesus, if it werent for its mine ability (wich dosnt get used that much) it would be completely useless.

2 can take a unupgraded puma.. wooo, and then the stug comes and thei are fucked

the fact that they cant even deal with a single squad of volks, much less attack ATs from the behind to kill the crew makes it stupid.

Raid is perfectly balanced when you think about how much allied light vehicles suck. exacept maybe the halftrack wich is wery useful if yo ucan keep it alive behind with your AT guns to reinforce rifemen and provide quad infatry support for the AT's

[Blacksand]

The Allied AC isn't there to kill infantry. If you want to spend the 75 muni to give it marginal anti-inf ability, feel free.. but the AC's purpose is to raid back points and shit mines along likely paths of armor advance/protect points.

If you want to kill a lot of infantry, use a Quad .50.

[evotech]

i still stand by my point that except laying mines in off map path the only thing its good for is to suecide bomb enemy tanks and raiding.. the raid makes it balanced

theres better thing (or worse) to complain about, not this

[LegionFlandern]

it takes a single shot at a jeep.

i have posted a thread on a jeep rusher. i have been fighting jeeps with volks for more than 30 minutes and i GUARANTEE - it takes more than 1 hit to take down a jeep with panzerfaust

sometimes even up to 3.

feel free to believe otherwise, but i am telling you this from first hand experience.

Halftracks and M8 also take about 2 -4 hits (so that 100 -200 Mun :screwy: )


A combined attack - both squads firing at once, if they both hit, will kill the AC. As for jeeps, why are you wasting 50 muni on a jeep? Much easier to simply shoot it.

with what? Volks are too slow, MG's cant move, Pak and grens usually arent build,... ?

if the jeeps stays out of MG range and teams up with 2 other jeeps (early game) you are in for trouble...

PS i know i sound like an old woman, but its actually true... :lonely:

[Blacksand]

With Volks, apologies if I was unclear on that. Usually, in my experience, if 2 volks squads fire a panzerfaust at the same time, and both hit, the M8 is toast.

[Major McTiz]

I know hardly anyone uses axis defensive doctrine, but in my opinion its the best counter to raid. The reason? Registered artillery! You can call it down on any of your captured points (or base structures), and it land about 2 seconds after you call it in. It will destroy ANYTHING thats trying to cap a point, EVERY time. That counts for halftracks, greyhounds and M10 tank destroyers too (I dont think M10's can cap points, but if one is next to one of your capped points, you can still take it out).

Registered arty pwns raid! :bricks:

[blah238]

Registered artillery is a complete waste if used to defend your points from routine/minimal capping effort. Even if you kill the unit capping its a terrible use of munitions. Most likely though if your opponent has any skill at all, he will see the red warning smoke, back out, wait for the arty to stop and end up capping it anyways, wasting your munitions completely. Save it all up for a big concentrated push and hit it on the 2 closest points to his passing army and maybe a rocket barrage in the middle.

[Major McTiz]

In my experience, my arty hits 9/10, even against good players (I'm lvl 7 axis). Once you set a unit capping a point, you go and micro somewhere else, your attention is not on the capping unit. If your not looking at the screen, you wont see the smoke and you cant dodge it. It catches them almost all the time, trust me. I do think its worth the munitions to take out a halftrack or greyhound. Jeeps... maybe, depends how munitions-rich I am.

[evotech]

how much munitions is registred artillery?

[Blacksand]

125 muni. It is cheap and fast, though I prefer propoganda.

[Mutters]

I love it when people try to make a point, and state one-side facts in support:

@ LegionFlandern
"with what? Volks are too slow, MG's cant move, Pak and grens usually arent build,... ?"

So you dont build T2 and complain you cant counter something.... because you never built the unit to counter them with.

@ Blacksand
"The Allied AC isn't there to kill infantry. If you want to spend the 75 muni to give it marginal anti-inf ability, feel free.. but the AC's purpose is to raid back points and shit mines along likely paths of armor advance/protect points."

So if you don't use the armour doctrine what exactly is the allied AC for? You cant use it to raid... so its an expensive mine layer?

All those complaining about the faust taking two or three shots to kill the allied AC, have you seen how many shots the puma takes... and it costs less fuel to build in 1.2!!!!

As stands the allied AC is pointless.

As for raid, I dont think it is unbalanced..... it just forces the axis player to deviate from MG/volks spam to puma/stug spam for once. Be creative, build T2! Its where all your anti-armour infantry units are.

[Blacksand]

So if you don't use the armor doctrine what exactly is the allied AC for? You cant use it to raid... so its an expensive mine layer?

Exactly. It's what you use if you don't have enough muni to upgrade a halftrack, or you feel the need to lay mines. It is marginally better against garrisoned troops, but not by much.

The AC is far from pointless, it merely serves a specific purpose. Oh, and where did I complain about it dying in two shots from a Panzerfaust? I stated how to accomplish such a deed, not complain about it.

And again, I'll repeat my original post. Raid is fine as is.

[Falaris]

Registered artillery is cheap, fast, and comes faster than propaganda (cp wise), and can't be used offensively.

Unfortunately, the targeted units gives the *vocal* that there's incoming artillery well before the red flares land, so someone using 'space' to jump to voice will have time to retreat them before even the red flares hit... but he's gotta be on a coffeine high to do that consistently. (Or younger than an old geezer like me).

As for raid - it's on the tree leading to calliopes, and makes early game even easier to delay / annoy until the calliopes enter the fray.

On its own it's not that bad, but sure, it can be annoying. However, the balance between M8 and Puma does take that into account, I believe.

[Mutters]

@Balcksand, I dunno where did you talk about fausts? While your at it where did I say you did?

If you're claiming the AC is deserving of being more expensive than the puma (pre-patch ofcourse) in its niche role of advance mine-layer, may I apply that to the units that all the axis players droll on about? The nebels are great for killing AT-guns and bombarding troops massing bases..... so they are fine too? Come on its a none argument.

[Blacksand]

Read the entire thread, I talked about Volks and fausts against AC's several times.
You said, and I quote:
All those complaining about the faust taking two to three shots to kill the Allied AC, have you seen how many shots the puma takes... and it costs less fuel to build in 1.2!!!

I read that as a point open to rebuttal, even if I was not complaining about them.

Now, you are misrepresenting my words - claiming that the AC is useless. It will do versus infantry in a pinch, but the halftrack quad .50 fills that role much better, so use it to fill it's role or don't use it. That simple.

It's cost is fine, it's abilities are fine. It fills a specific role, and fills it admirably.

Also, I challenge you to find a single example of a nebelwerfer being used effectively in a competitive game. You're comparing apples to tomahawks there, and such an analogy is entirely unneeded.

[AntiCommie]

The allied AC isnt that bad against infantry if you give it a .50 and add the armor and you have a unit that can take 2-3 AT/Stug shots. I understand this adds 150 mun cost for your AC, but that really doesnt slow down teching, shermans, or even rifles (If you have decent map control). In my opinion ACs are meant to be massed, they are designed (And were used in RL) to hit weak rear areas, cut off the enemy, kill off a weak or isolated squad, and run away. They basically cause havoc and gain intel. I'd say the allied AC excels at this, and with raid its even better. I usually build no more then 2, but I usually never build more then 1-2 HT. Anything more your wasting Sherman resources.

[holymoly]

125 munition on a halftrack or AC or a jeep isnt cheap, armor company can and will do without infantry, but most people get BARs anyway to insta pin and clear AT guns... doesnt matter if quad cant shoot while capping, just stop cappning and shot the crap out of infantry and retreat when stug shows up

[DrunkenOne]

A greyhound will beat a stock puma 1v1. Fact. A greyhound is excellent for killing bunkers or mgs in buildings. Fact. Greyhounds are the earliest armor on the field. Fact.

Seriously greyhounds dont just have raid and mines. Although they either need a hp buff or quad 50s need a massive hp nerf cause currently the unarmored quad 50 has more hps than the "armored" greyhound.

[Noble]

I dont think raid is a problem, it's annoying yes, but not impossible to deal with. Drunken is right, they do have their niche to fill, the quad just does it better in most cases.

[Demon_Eyes]

A greyhound will beat a stock puma 1v1. Fact. A greyhound is excellent for killing bunkers or mgs in buildings. Fact. Greyhounds are the earliest armor on the field. Fact.

Seriously greyhounds dont just have raid and mines. Although they either need a hp buff or quad 50s need a massive hp nerf cause currently the unarmored quad 50 has more hps than the "armored" greyhound.
The greyhound doesn't beat an upgraded puma though, it is no better than flamethrowers or AT guns at taking down bunkers and costs more overall resources, MG's in buildings go down faster to quad50, being earliest armor doesn't mean much when a single PF and an MG covering will kill it or a puma with upgrade or a single PS with MG covering. Greyhounds are worthless as main combat units, they are good for setting traps and as a quick response to supply harrassment or to harrass supply in armored company. Greyhounds shouldn't get an HP buff, they should be cheaper though. The quad50 just needs it's armor rate toned down so it doesn't deflect so often. Also, "armored" in the armored car namedoesn't have any real bearing on this, could point out that the "halftrack" is a half tank, half truck.

[Mutters]

halftrack is a halftrack as it has two front wheel, and a pair of tracks.... not cos its heavily armoured.

All the guys claiming the AC is worth building at all im very sure are mainly axis players. They want you to build the AC to slow down your teching :)

Seriously, ok they can lay mines in the axis base and along his supply lines, if they can run the gauntlet of volks with fausts. They can clear a MG from a building better than a quad. Is that at all comparable to the axis armoured car.... no, yet it costs more. It may be the first armour on the field, fact, but it dies to a couple of volks, fact.

Its worth...... negligable. Negated by minesweeping pioneers in base and the very useful volks. As soon as stugs appear thats pretty much it for the use, so they last about 30 seconds in terms of usefulness (and only when youve fast teched and not upgraded your rifles... and probably not controlled the fuel as well as you should).

Anyone got a link to a replay where two good players have used ACs to good effect I would be very grateful so I could watch it a learn from them.

[Demon_Eyes]

That wasn't my point mutters, was suggesting that the name doesn't mean anything and is a completely symantical argument.

[Demonic Spoon]

In my humble oppinion, raid is just a little too overpowered. It renders infantry useless for the armor commander and can cap points all over the map giving the axis a very hard time.

Solution: Give the light vehicles a 50% time penalty when capping points. Raid will still be useful but now the axis will have more time to react aswell as giving infantry back the role as the main capper.

...

If your enemy is able to spam nothing but armor and you aren't whooping his ass, then he is much, much better than you are. Armor spam, against relatively similarly-skilled players, does not work.

[Noble]

^^^^ THANK YOU, this point really cant be driven home hard enough to new players. Tank spam does not work against anyone of even moderate skill.

[Timeless]

Stug spam works all the time. Is a stug a tank?

[Noble]

Stugs without infantry support will lose quickly.

[Plan6]

They dont need infantry support, they need Puma support.

After teir 3 axis comes up, all they need is Pioneers to cap points and repair. The rest can be done by Pumas and Stugs.

[Noble]

Right up until you run into a wall of AT's and sticky bombs.

[Plan6]

Sticky bombs verse well mircoed puma. My laughing continues.

AT guns, my Puma drive behind the one AT gun you got out as I got to tier 3. The crew dies. The Puma drivers are amazed at how easy it is to aim the main cannon while driving at full speed.

[Noble]

Your puma drives behind my AT gun, and then gets shot in the ass by my other AT gun and/or stickied. Who the hell uses only one AT gun?

[0mar]

Puma can headshot riflemen all day. Relying on sticky bombs as your main AT is going to cost you big when they show up. You definitely need something with a longer range, such as a 57mm, tank or greyhound. It's almost absurd how good the Puma is at killing infantry.

[Noble]

"Puma can headshot riflemen all day. Relying on sticky bombs as your main AT is going to cost you big when they show up. You definitely need something with a longer range, such as a 57mm, tank or greyhound. It's almost absurd how good the Puma is at killing infantry."

"Right up until you run into a wall of AT's and sticky bombs."


Use both.

[Rithrin]

The thing is, Pumas are amazingly mobile and maneuverable. If you're microing it, you can avoid rilflemen stickies while zooming around behind the AT guns, while headshotting the riflemen on the way there. If you have so many AT guns strategically placed so that each AT gun's rear is protected by another AT gun and so forth, you just don't go near it with a Puma. You go harass other places as the AT guns certainly can't "advance" on a Puma. And if you've got multiple AT guns, he's got multiple Pumas I'm sure.

[Dominans]

...

If your enemy is able to spam nothing but armor and you aren't whooping his ass, then he is much, much better than you are. Armor spam, against relatively similarly-skilled players, does not work.

Don't take me for a noob. My current stats is 85/18. The problem I have with raid, is that the allied player can harass your points all day long. When that jeep capps that point, I need to send a volksquad to take it back. My main force is now one squad weaker, and now the allies attacks and will have the upperhand. The jeep now goes to the other side of the map, rinse & repeat. This is why I would like to see an increase in the capping time for light vehicles. It will give me more time to react. And armor spam is pretty much what the game looks like after some time. If you don't spam armor you WILL lose the game. As soon as that first sherman/calliope is out, your infantry is rendered almost useless.

This leads to stug + puma spam. Works very good. SO how can you say, that armor spam isn't effective? Have you missed that puma + stug is the most widely used and effective axis strategy around?

[Sepha]

Allied motor pool & light vehicles is pitiful anyway, upgraded pumas easilly beat m8's and halftracks let alone stugs. Raid is one of the advantages, it doesn't need adjusting.

[Dominans]

Did you forget the calliope?

[Blacksand]

What about the Calliope, what does it have to do with Raid?

[KlavoHunter]

You get the Calliope 3 points after Raid - it's a devastating progression. First your opponant jeep- and rifle-spams while using his fuel on Rifle upgrades, and while he's dominating the early-game like that, with his Jeeps taking all your points before you can respond, he then rolls out the Calliopes before you have Tech 3. (since you weren't able to keep your fuel points intact due to the roving jeeps).

[Blacksand]

But that has nothing to do with the balance of Raid, which I still contend is absolutely fine as-is.

Discussion of calliopes has nothing to do with Raid, to be honest. Though I agree on your point, and the fuel would honestly be better spent getting to light armor and AT guns.

[Demon_Eyes]

Calliope is getting nerfed today, Raid is a well balanced ability, can't fire while raiding and if it is a major deal just tanktrap/dragonteeth your main points.

[MajorThorvald]

because we have all the time needed to tank trap all our points lol

[evotech]

and they dont work in 1.3 anyway =P

[Demon_Eyes]

because we have all the time needed to tank trap all our points lol
Was refering to critical points, i.e. "big deal" usually only 2-3 points that you absolutely need to keep for supply line. What's wrong with tanktraps in 1.3?

[evotech]

they dont work, you can dirver over them with a M8 or anything heavier supposedly

[Demon_Eyes]

Nevemind, found a threads:
http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=122345
http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=122365

[Noble]

Time to use nothing but mines. BYE BYE MUNITION.