[DC]Terminators....

[DukeRustfield]

They are generalists, after all.
They aren't generalists. Generalists are good at many different things and terms are ONLY good at ranged. What you meant to say is, "I want them to be generalists."


So what I am saying is, people here accept that other things would have to change in order to make generalist Terminators balanced. And as already stated, they are proven to be balanced in their original form, so let's go back to that. Balance is not an issue hindering change if the proposed change is already proven to be balanced, surely?
DoW and WA, but DoW especially, were completely different games! Had different units and races. And they had absolutely different balance at all levels. SM were different, whirlwinds sucked, hellfire dreads sucked, like half the abilities didn't work right. You can't pluck a unit from that game and pretend just because it was balanced (maybe) over there it would be balanced in every other. Just like you can't take units from DC and move them back to DoW/WA. Harlequins, cloaked CSM, HWT, etc would all completely destroy DoW/WA.

Using different games that came in different boxes with different cd keys and trying to mix and match them is ridiculous. What's next, taking weapons from Quake and and trying to mix them in (missile marines should be able to rocket jump!).

Balancing on fluff isn't balance. For all the 238498 pages of this nonsense, there aren't any replays or serious evaluations that terms (and more importantly) SM need buffs. It's just "OMGZ, 1 grot can kill 50 terms in CC. Terms should be able to kill an entire planet because that's what it's like in TT."

Well, play TT. Or make a mod where Terms are like PSM with autocannons. You don't have to worry about balance in your own mod.

[a1ph4riu5]

I'm not going to bother arguing with you Duke. You're just unpleasant these days.

[Lazerguy]

In other words DukeRustfield thinks the status quo is just fucking dandy, and wants us all to agree with him.

No offense Duke, but you have reached "Wall of Ignorance" levels of stuborn refusal to do anything but parrot one line:

Termies aren't generalist!!!!1010101010.

Problem is that they were generalists in DoW, got fubared by WA, and then capped by DC. Two expansions, two nerfs with one being completly uncalled for in the DC frame work.

The people want a buff. The people have spoken.

End of Discussion one would think, no?

[Jaimas]

I'd have to agree, Lazer. You too, Fuggles. And a1ph4riu5 as well.

The issue's been debated, and things have boiled down to one side bringing every fact available and the other basically reciting the same talking points. It's clear to see what the correct course of action is now. Let us do the honorable thing now, and let the issue rest.

[SubakuGaara]

Like I said. The tau just love gunning down those slowpoke terminators. Mark em with pathfinders. Gun them down with a firewarrior squad. End of story. terminators are not an end all. However the cap has good reason. In the original dow, people would queue up all terminators and warp them right in my base and then take out a headquarters. I'd kill the terminators but then it'd just happen again and again. Its not that they are overly strong, its more that they can quickly do damage and can reach battle zones instantly. Thats why I'm also in favor of a hard cap on flayed ones. By the time you kill all the flayed, they've 1)taken out your headquarters and 2) had the same thing happen again.

[Tentacles]

The frank truth of it is that there's no reason for Terminators to be insanely weak in melee. When adding flavor will not hurt the game, I don't see how it is a major problem. I play Orks exclusively, and I have nothing against Terminators being able to hold their own against T1 units in melee.

[Garumsh-Zott]

Ok then lets take Kroot as sample T1 melee unit:

infhvyhigh ! infhvymed ! infhigh ! inf med! infllow

Termies 7.345 ! 9.137 ! 7.345 ! 8.420 ! 5.196


Kroot 13.650 ! 13.650 ! 13.650 ! 16.380 ! 13.650


This would roughly double their damage on the field. With consideration to their armor class and hitpoints I think they should do ok then. Count me in

[DukeRustfield]

No offense Duke, but you have reached "Wall of Ignorance" levels of stuborn refusal to do anything but parrot one line:

Termies aren't generalist!!!!1010101010.

Problem is that they were generalists in DoW, got fubared by WA, and then capped by DC. Two expansions, two nerfs with one being completly uncalled for in the DC frame work.
What something was in DoW is irrelevant. It doesn't matter whatsoever. Why are you even bringing it up? I can bring up other WH20K games as well, but who cares? Different units had different goals in different patches. Some units do completely different things now. They balanced for THIS game. Not DoW. Not WA. Those games are gone. If you like them, go back and play them.

Terminators are now counterparts to Kas, WS, Flash Gitz, etc. ALL OF WHOM ARE NOT GENERALISTS, ALL OF WHOM SUCK AT CC. Wow. Amazing how that works.


The frank truth of it is that there's no reason for Terminators to be insanely weak in melee.
It's the same reason that all specialists are weak at their non-specialty: because they wouldn't have counters otherwise and would be too powerful. Should Nobs be as shooty as Flash Gitz? How about Kasrkins being able to knock down vehicles like Ogryns? Or Warp Spiders being as tough as Banshees in CC? Or Obliterators being CC monsters like PSM?

Do you think it's a coincidence that all these races have ranged fighters who suck at CC and CC fighters who suck at ranged? Or do you think maybe Terms and AT's are the exact counterparts of all these other races which is why their CC blows?

You have to go back to DoW, and fluff, to try and make an argument why Terms should be good at CC. I can point out how the other races don't work like that* and how it's consistent across the entire CURRENT game.


*okay, demigods like Krootox, which are more broken than a really broken thing, don't fit the mold, but they'll be nerfed.

[ReignInBlood]

All the troops now from every race are Aspect Warriors. Think of the power fist now as a big mitten to throw snowballs at your enemies or a velvet glove to slap your enemies faces in melee.

The Space Marines follow the path of the Eldar now.

[HarmlessPenguin]

I've pointed out numerous examples where that does not apply, Duke. I've also pointed out how Termies are comprably weaker than those same counter parts you pointed out. This is all evened out solely by their survivability, which while great is not a threat if the enemy can simply ignore them and face the rest of the army with little difficulty. I do wonder why the moderators choose not to lock this thread as I've requested though...it truely is getting quite tiresome.

[fuggles]

One squad of generalists will not break an army composed of either ranged or melee specialists (depending on your marine flavour). As long as the damage output is less than the ranged damage I don't see a problem. However a powerfist is a powerfist.

[raxonya]

This thread is crazy. Give them the same melee as tacs so the fanboys will stop crying.

Hmm it's not about "fans" here Garumsh-Zott, Its about that u get ur only uber squad (oblits - termies) CC-ed to death with t1 or t2 units thats all...

[Jaimas]

Hmm it's not about "fans" here Garumsh-Zott, Its about that u get ur only uber squad (oblits - termies) CC-ed to death with t1 or t2 units thats all.

And Tier-0 cappers. And builder units. :P

[Garumsh-Zott]

Hmm ok well then. If all you want to do is argue over the same (quite pointless) points, padding each other on the shoulder on the way, instead of taking this discussion(?) to the next logical step, so be it. Beeing an ork player this isn't of SUCH importance to me anyway. I'm outta here.
Have a nice day :)

[DukeRustfield]

The Space Marines follow the path of the Eldar now.
All races do to an extent. It makes it easier to have counters and it makes it a LOT less viable to just spam 1 unit type because they have hard counters. Combined arms iz teh good.


Duke. I've also pointed out how Termies are comprably weaker than those same counter parts you pointed out. This is all evened out solely by their survivability, which while great is not a threat if the enemy can simply ignore them and face the rest of the army with little difficulty.
This isn't the case. All of them have different pros and cons AND different balances within the race. You can't just compare 1 unit to another, because the races are different. But besides their insane morale/armor/health they got deepstrike, low cost, DPS up the wazoo.


I do wonder why the moderators choose not to lock this thread as I've requested though...it truely is getting quite tiresome.
Then stop posting and/or reading. No one is forcing you to stay.

[ReignInBlood]

I agree combined arms is the good stuff. The hard counters do seem to make the game more interesting. It’s nice to see a variety of units being produced instead of just the best unit you can spam at the time. The hard cap seems to ad to the variety more so. It seems to extend the use of the lower tier units, which I like.

I like the game the way it is now. People seem to argue the hardest for buffs to the units they like the most. I’m guilty of that myself because I wish the Reapers had some more range, but I do still use them on occasion, namely against Necrons because Shees will break instantly in melee against them.

In the over all scheme of things, in the combined arms world, any tier 0 unit trying to tie up a Terminator squad in melee will die instantly, with very little micro, I should ad. Could you imagine what would happen to a guardian or slugga squad in which a fully upgraded heavy bolter tac squad fired on it? They would tie 'em up for 2 seconds, if that.

Move on with your life because the range and or damage of all weapons/units in the game have changed to some extent. More over, units and weapons are not replicated perfectly to what you think they should be from TT, fluff, previous version of the game, including the beloved Terminator power fist. Get over it. Have fun.

[nemarsde]

I just want to say that assertions that DC is a "completely different game" to DoW and WA is ridiculous hyperbole. DC is the second expansion pack to DoW, and it hardly needs pointing out that it isn't Quake or some other W40K game.

It is a W40K game though. The units in the game are balanced based on W40K material, which again hardly needs pointing out. Why is a Terminator an elite unit? Why are Eldar Dark Reapers are long range specialist units, not melee specialist units? Etc.

Terminators are elite, generalist units. They are not ranged specialist units. Even in the current version of the game, v1.11, they are generalist units. It just so happens that they are generally useless units.

If they had a lower FotM peno, maybe their ranged damage could be brought to bear. If the AC didn't out-range the Storm Bolter, and so cause the squad to stand-off, firing only two weapons, maybe all their ranged damage could be brought to bear. If they couldn't be tied up in melee by a squad of T0 infantry, maybe they could continue to do their ranged damage.

As it is, the Terminator squad is hard capped at 1 with 3 pop. It's elite, it's generally useless.

(If Terminators were ranged specialists, I doubt this would be such an issue since few would notice they were so poor in melee.)

So there are really two compelling reasons to buff Terminator melee:

1. It's what's expected from the W40K material.
2. It might make the unit useful.

I asked this question many pages ago, it still stands.

Even if Terminator squads were not hard capped at 1, would you build 2 instead of 3 Tac squads?

They could be hard capped at 3 and players still wouldn't build them. They are not as useful as Tac squads.

[Jaimas]

Bear in mind as well that all currently-existing in-game text regarding the Terminators, from their in-game text to the text for their honor guard versions, specifically states that they are a generalist unit and not a ranged specialist.

It's a point I've brought up multiple times now, and which has gone curiously unnoticed by the opposition throughout this entire thread.

[Lazerguy]

What something was in DoW is irrelevant. It doesn't matter whatsoever. Why are you even bringing it up? I can bring up other WH20K games as well, but who cares? Different units had different goals in different patches. Some units do completely different things now. They balanced for THIS game. Not DoW. Not WA. Those games are gone. If you like them, go back and play them.

Uh, no termies actually weren't balanced for this game. They were balanced for WA in which they had no hard cap. Now they do so the only credible reason for pathetic CC damage (that they could be spamed and everything else would be made obsolete) is gone.

I'm waiting for the next excuse...


Terminators are now counterparts to Kas, WS, Flash Gitz, etc. ALL OF WHOM ARE NOT GENERALISTS, ALL OF WHOM SUCK AT CC. Wow. Amazing how that works.

Still completely obsessed with the game mechanic to the exclusion of everything else. Same old Duke.

[fuggles]

But why can't we just have internal consistency????? Why is every non-terminator powerfist more powerful? It makes no sense. It makes no sense that they are outmeleed by a tac squad full of HB's, which are truly range specialists.

[Fannin]

The bottom line is that fluff should be upheld when game balance will not suffer as a result. Upping Terminator melee to a bit higher than that of tactical marines will not impact game balance one iota, and makes sense from a fluff perspective, therefore there is no reason not to do it.

[Deaths Abyss]

i think we should give terminators a spinach ability so that if they see some BS or cultists they can summon popeye to kick their ass.

[ReignInBlood]

I bet there will be a lot of stat changes in the first official patch. And for the record I won’t complain if they make Terminators more menacing in melee. Like most people argued it would only make sense.

The first post I ever made on this board was concerning that I’d prefer the balance team to try and balance this game without compromising the original “idea” of a particular unit. That’s why people have made MODS to keep the WH40K “purists” happy. I had played TT for 6 years back in the 90’s and I was even surprised how some units in DC didn’t live up to their name.

You can’t necessarily disagree with Duke either because his argument is correct also, in which he takes the side of the balance team. You CAN’T argue that the balance team PURPOSLY modified the stats of units to balance the game by nerfing and buffing. If you were familiar with TT you would know certain things. Anti heavy infantry warp spiders, short ranged reapers, power fists that do minimal damage ect ect don’t make sense. BUT, DC is NOT a purist’s game, so get over it and play a mod. Complain all you want but that’s how the cookie crumbles.

The balance team has a different idea of balance than you and I. And don’t whine about the hard capping because that’s one of the only things that are consistent with the TT rulebook.

One more thing, play TT and see how terminators are in melee, especially against a competent player that exploits power swords and you’ll say what a waste of 500 points.

[Fannin]

To be fair, WS, with all their shots, strike me as being perfectly capable of hurting heavy infantry in TT ;)

[ReignInBlood]

Well, if you knew what you were talking about, you’d know that the web spinner can’t penetrate Terminator or vehicle armor.

So, you want to change that game too?

[Energizer Bunny]

Eh? Is that a bug? The deathspinner does fairly reasonable DPS to both

16.3 To Infantry Heavy High
10.8 To Vehicle Low
4.5 To Vehicle Medium

[ReignInBlood]

I was talking about TT penetration.

I wonder if the reason why this thread is so long is because of reading comprehension?

[Energizer Bunny]

Possibly a combination of that and smart arse comments

[Fannin]

It most certainly can't penetrate vehicle armor in TT, yes. However, the death spinner seems to me to be good against termies in the same vein as lasguns are ;)

[ReignInBlood]

That's what I though. The monophiloment strands have no AP same with the hummie lasguns. I think Eldar lasguns have AP if can remember correctly.

[Jaimas]

IIRC, Eldar Lasblasters are S3, AP6.

I could be mistaken, though. I don't have Codex: Craftworld Eldar handy.