[DC 1] Necrons by Necrons (Now with whole grain!)

[DukeRustfield]

So I've been playing Necrons since they came out and I've been spending a lot of time recently playing against them and reviewing replays with them and otherwise having them on my team. Below are my personal suggestions for the race to balance their shortcomings and excesses.


-Monolith: No change. It's annoying to have it be the only production facility of the race, but it's also unique. I think the activated Monolith is fine.

-Power Gens: No change. Also unique concept.

-Obelisks: No change. I personally don't like wailing lame, but that's me.

-Turrets: No change. One of the saving graces of early Necron game against rushes. With everyone able to fast tech to hyper ranged weapons, I honestly don't understand why more turrets don't have huge range.

-Summoning Core: Fix the armor bug. Some upgrade changes listed under units.

-Greater Summoning Core: No Change.

-Power Core (or whatever it's called): No Change.

-Wraiths: Blah blah blah. Nick pointed out I was wrong on their armor type. So the new suggestion is to make them 1 pop. This also helps Necron detection abilities instead of having to rely on builders and infantry_med units in fuxing T3/4. It should be POSSIBLE to have a Wraith army just like you can have an ASM army or Raptor army. Though it'd be awful hard to use, you'd get out-manned and they have ar tendency to "die" at innappropriate times.

-Flayed Ones: Make their load time into a Monolith increase by 15 seconds so it's harder to port back to Mono, load and redeploy. That's easy. The trick is what is their purpose? If we have more durable Wraiths, FO are just sucky and slow meatshields. They certainly aren't Pariahs. What's worse is they are SLOWER than NW! Of all the ranged/CC combos out there (Sluggas + Shootas, Banshees + DR, Zerkers + CSM, etc.) the CC is at least the same speed as the ranged. Otherwise they are pointless. The FO would crawl out of the ground, do some morale dmg, and that would be the last they see of combat. Unlike a Killa Kan, which also has to lumber into CC, FO have morale and they don't have guns. And as durable as they are, they aren't Kans. So a couple options:

*Cap them at 2. Maybe have a Core upgrade (T3, "catacombs" :p) so they can get 1-2 squads more. So they remain base bashers and the occassional melee assist.

*No cap, but take away their AE attack so they don't do damage when broken (or they do 1% or whatever broken units do). Increase their individual CC attacks to make up for their lack of AE so they can still survive against their counterparts like Zekers. I would LIKE to then speed them up to at least NW speed. As it is people will be kiting NW and if FO are behind even them, they aren't really good for much except zombie cheerleaders.

-Necron Warriors: Put the recall teleport on a +30 second timer to slow them down and/or make them use faster but less pwnerizing units. Also, neither of the upgrades increases their ranged distance. Only the 2nd upgrade increases their building or vehicle dmg. Why? With the reduced range it will take longer and be harder to get concentrated firepower on targets and will thus reduce their dmg, especially on the move. It will also give other race's the ability to hit and run and inflict losses before the Necrons close in range. But it still preserves the idea that they are powerhouses when up close. It also increases the need for Immortals and Wraiths in the Necron army and perhaps FO to drop and corner the enemy. It also feels fluffy in that there will be lots of dead NW all over as they try to get to engagements. I just added that the 2nd upgrade should increase AV/AB because at that point you're T2.5 and I think it's fair. The types of vehicles you're going to run into at that point would completely laugh at T1 NW and I don't think they should be helpless.

*I'd also think about a SLIGHT health reduction. Something tells me people will never be happy until they can stand still and trade shots with NW... But I'd personally like them to remain as the feared march of death instead of march of the penguins.

-Immortals: Same except have a (T3?) upgrade at Core to increase their health by 25%. They are too fragile to stand up in end game fights, especially if they are going to be considered a necessary part of the army.

-Destroyers: Reduce their cost by half. Yup. Half. To 125. I would recommend first that they can't be tied up in CC and then their cost could remain the same. But since they put in all the animations and values and whatnot, I don't think that's going to happen. It was a neat idea, but I just don't think a CCing ranged vehicle works. At half they would cost 5 more than a Flayed Ones squad. Do I think they are remotely as valuable as a FO? Not by a long shot. 4 Wraiths? Nope.

-Heavy Destroyers: Reduce their cost by 1/3rd to 200. Same reason as Destroyer. They are a bit more valuable just because of their high health in comparison to the low health of Immortals. Destroyers, which are competing with Necron Warriors, have the health of 2 NW with a lot more range and speed. A HD has the health of like 6 or 7 Immortals with more speed and I think about the same range.

-Tomb Spyder: I think they're okay.

-Pariahs. Well I wish they didn't die so fast. And take away the bug that makes buildings/units invulnerable. Other than that, I guess they are fine.

-Lord Destroyer: I'm not exactly sure what to do with these guys, but they are by far the worst T4 tank in the game. The only thing I can think of is give them a bit more health and make the stasis field wider and not have the units impervious to dmg. I think that would make them at least somewhat useful in battle. It's not that different than a Tank Zappa or Curse of the Machine Spirits. As it is, I'm lucky to catch a partial squad and they are immune from harm. Compare this with other T4 tanks which would just...kill the squad.

-Necron Lord: No change except for powers.

(First off, I would like all powers to not be on global timers. I.e., currently if the NL dies the timers are still recharging. You should have to be "alive" for the timers to be counting down. Barring that, some durations would have to be increased.)

-Nightbringer: Okay, no change. With nerfed other powers, this will be one that is more important. And it DOES cost 750. If you can't make it a non-global timer though, it should probably be increased ~30 seconds.
-Lightning Field: Confer a 15% resistance to all CC attacks. If you want to put all you powers into making you NL a super hero (LF/heal and invis or chron) I think that should be valid. But right now the higher powers are SOO much better.
-Solar Pulse: Contract the radius. Increase the recast timer by 20-30 seconds.
-Resurrection Orb: Limit the cap to 24/20. Units resurrected return with 25% health instead of half. So if you've got an empty base it's still brutal, but if you just beat them, it won't be such a big deal to put them back in the ground. I could even see it going lower %. Just don't know the magic #. A big part of the problem with Rez is you have one of the primary weaknesses of Necron, mobility, being negated by Rez cuz they are right where you want them, usually. I thought of having them port immediately back to your Monolith, but that just seems kinda wonky, especially as your NL is standing there alone and looking kinda target-y, so having them be all beat to shit is the best I could think of.


Did anyone read this far? :duck:

Edit: Oh, and I got a slew of replays that kind of show where I came up with these ideas. But I think most of you know why.

[CorsairX]

just wanted to say that destroyer lord can still take over enemy vehs when they are statised i think this is pretty nice, having 2 full health kill kanz or other

and agreed on the wraith part dunno about the rest i think the rest is good as is

when you get destroyers you have so big income that the cost does not matter

i think something needs to be done with atack scrabs, i see no use for them except lp harass

[4Servant]

Imo buffing flayed ones damage to compensate damage loss when broken is not a good imo. Cause it will still be the famous see your army out of your base drop 4 fo solar pulse hq gone tp back gg no re. It will not really fix that issue imo cause the solar pulse also only got longer recharge time.
Mb you wana reconsider your statement about fo.

[SirNick]

I'm not a Necron player, so I can't comment on the Necron thoughts in the proper way that the thread's intended to.

I do want to raise a point about Wraiths you may want to clarify in the OP:

Wraiths begin at infantry_heavy_med armor, and the Wraith upgrade at the Summoning Core also boosts their armor class up to infantry_heavy_high. So, after the upgrade, a 1050 HP Wraith is basically a Terminator in durability, and they get a 25% speed boost on top of all that. 2 cap for 1 is definately a bit low though. Perhaps a Tier 3 upgrade could reduce that squad cap?

@4servant and in general Re: Flayed Ones AoE attacks / Dmg Buff -- I think the point being conveyed is that the damage to regular infantry would be boosted, not the AB damage, and the AB/AV damage part of the AoE special attacks would be removed.

As it is, Flayed ones do a massive 0.3 DPS to HQs when not doing their AoE attacks, so I think the mass HQ drop shouldn't be so much of a problem.

Though, Flayed Ones already have nearly 50 DPS to most infantry, so damage would need a feather touch to prevent the dreaded "imba."

[DukeRustfield]

-Would you consider it a fair trade to swap a Predator Annhilator for a Kan? That's what the possession you're suggesting is. Yeah it can be done. It's very rarely cost-effective however.

-Destroyers are available at T2. You're hardly rolling in resources. And I think with the other modifications you'll have even less resources.

-I didn't mean buffing dmg WHILE BROKEN. Buff dmg while not broken to equal their current dmg with AE's. Just get rid of AE's. So their net dmg increase would be zero and when they were broken it would be just as bad as any other unit, whereas now when they are broken they are still very dangerous because of their AE.

-Well fux, you're right Nick. I don't know where I got infantry_med from, I've been saying that forever. I had toyed with the idea of 1 pop, but then I thought of 20 Wraiths and I got scaredified. Though come to think of it that would be every last bit of infantry cap you've got. Maybe. I think they need work just because of the way they behave. Paying 1 pop for 1 ASM (with admittedly better attributes) maybe ain't so bad. See what others say. I'll edit original.

[GRIM Ripper]

is that destroyer price a joke??? 125 for an 80-90 dps 2000 HP FAST attack vehicle???? ummmm no thanks.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

Fine with basically everything there except:

Destroyer change: They're too expensive now, yes, but half price is too much of a drop. 175 power would be more realistic IMO.
Solar Pulse change: It's still insanely powerful just in terms of what it does. Removing ranged fire completely is just too much. Leave the AoE and cooldown as is but change it to say a 40% accuracy penalty or something.

[DukeRustfield]

Their DPS is 41 because that's what they do in CC which is where they spend 99% of their time. Yes, Destroyers are a joke. Put another way, you're NOT buying a Tomb Spyder that does more dmg, can release scarabs, can harvest and give you insta infantry.

Yeah, they have a long range. The ppl's chasing them range is infinite. When you can't shoot on the move you're going to get off 1, 2 shots at a random target before you're tied up again. How about for every replay you show me of Destroyers doing good, I'll give you 10 of no one using them because they suck compared to TS or HD?

Solar Pulse is the same vegetable as CoTMS or Skull Probe or Wraithtomb etc. You can have 7 Psykers. You can already shut down buildings. I've been on the receiving end of SP including in my base and it wasn't a huge deal to move out of it. If NW range is reduced it will have even less impact. It will be more about defeating building guns/turrets or forcing a brief retreat.

[eXarchProXy]

-Power Gens: (A unique concept doesn't mean it's a good one or balanced. They need to link gen creation with strat points or limit them in some way so a necron can't just build and build.)

-Obelisks: (You think it's lame but it shouldn't be changed? It's a bit too strong if you ask me)

-Turrets: (It's also a very powerful way for necrons to get map control. With one builder making a turret in a choke point backed up with a NL and one warrior squad you can effectively cut off large chunks of the map. I think they need to be changed in relation to cost or where they can be built)


-Summoning Core: (It's a bug. Of course it should be fixed.)



-Wraiths: (They need to be looked at too. They are almost unkillable and their kill animations are too long. They are too strong vs T1 units and too easy to spam. Most people don't even know how powerful they are.)


-Flayed Ones:
(Their building damage HAS to go. Their morale degeneration is also a bit too strong. I think limited the squad amount would be a great idea. They are too cheap for what they do. Their purpose is melee disruption. Nowhere in the mannual does it say they should be effective against buildings. Zerkers don't deepstrike.)


-Necron Warriors:

(the warrior upgrades are bugged. They are not preforming how they were suppose to so it's hard to balance them or even speculate.)


-Destroyers:
(I think they need to balance T1 and early T2 before you start asking for cheaper destroyers. Again it's a unit that most people don't even know how to use effectively or use at all. They also have some amazing melee abilities that nobody uses)

-Heavy Destroyers: (see above)

-Necron Lord: No change except for powers.

(His cool downs are unacceptable. His teleport also recharges much too fast. Two teleports? fine but a slower recharge is in order. Light_building needs = other heros.)

(First off, I would like all powers to not be on global timers. I.e., currently if the NL dies the timers are still recharging. You should have to be "alive" for the timers to be counting down. Barring that, some durations would have to be increased.)



-Solar Pulse:
( you forgot to mention it affects buildings, which is totally wrong. This power is mostly OP because of the lords teleport spam. They are connected.)



Did anyone read this far?

(Yes. You seem very biased for necrons :boohoo:)

[DukeRustfield]

Please don't just repost the entire message. It makes it almost impossible to read.

It's a turtle race. I know people don't like it but it's not like they are an offensive turtle race where they can stop you from capping the map while they mass power gens. Them doing their thing leaves the map to their opponent. Highly doubtful that will change.

Wraiths are crap. They are far from unkillable and if you ever play Tau you will say they are unengageable with Wraiths. They will randomly die when taking dmg and lie on the ground for ages. Synch kills are bad when you're trying to kill your enemy.

If building dmg of FO goes.......what on earth are they good for? You said that Zerkers don't DS, but Zerkers move faster than everyone else, they don't need DS. If you DS in and then every single unit in the game can just walk away from you and you have no hope of ever reaching them, um, what's your use?

I don't think people understand just how expensive Destroyers are. It's a tough nut getting out a TS in automatch and Destroyers are only about 15% less, but they are about 75% less valuable in what they can do.

No I didn't forget to mention SP affects buildings. I mentioned below with Skull Probes and such. It's not completely unique and the fact that it works on buildings is one of its best features as everyone else just goes "oh noze" and takes 10 steps back.

As for being biased, from what I can tell you want FO's to be gone, wraiths to be same, which no one uses, NL to be nerfed to pieces, Necrons, the slowest and slowest-advancing race in the game, to now have to compete for map control. Why not just remove the race and save some coding?

[Technique]

http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?p=1949917#post1949917

There are the replays, could you give me 20 automatches of using only tomb spiders to save yourself?
I even use a tomb spider in one, and attack scarabs!^^
And please could they be 20 automatches of yourself, not other ppl.

[Ragnarok]

Exarch, please do something to format your post, as is it's nearly unreadable..

Anyway, Thanks for pointing out just how much the AoE attack of Flayed Ones do, SirNick. I had no idea that they actually did so pathetic damage to HQ's when they don't do the AoE every other animation it feels like.

Anyway, I like a lot of the changes you suggest, Duke. However, I prefer noze's suggestion of Destroyers being 175 power instead of 125. I also don't think that CCing Destroyers is that big of a deal as it encourages the player to keep them back and helps to require a bit of micro on the part of the player.

I really do like the idea of only making the second NW upgrade upgrading their vehicle/building damage and neither upgrading their range. I think this'll cut down on some of the NW spam tactics (4+ squads of NW). Granted, the Warrior is supposed to be the Necron's primary unit not only in DC but also on the TT, but I'd rather they not be anti-everything units as to encourage the use of other units aside from primarily NWs and FOs.

And Technique, please, please, please refrrain from ever posting a nearly pure "OMGLOL ROFLCOPTER!!!!`~!~!11`!@~" post ever again. It nearly gave me an aneurism.

[Dakaar]

Some nice suggestions, i agree with most but ill add my own thoughts where they differ.

-Wraiths: I agree that 2 pop for 1 is too much, either the 1 cap you suggested or make them 3 cap and reinforcable to 3.

-Necron Warriors: Your suggestions could be ok, but as they are the backbone of the army, im a bit hesitant to nerf them till the other things are balanced and then see how it works.

-Immortals: I agree they are too weak, and anti fluff. They are meant to be the elite warrior, but as they have been implemented they are weaker than warriors (far weaker) They need upgrades like the warriors or have the warrior upgrades apply to them as well.

-Destroyers: I dont think they need cost halving, a slight reduction maybe, but mainly i think a pop cap reduction to 2. As it is there is no point in taking them over heavy destroyers, as you already have plenty of anti infantry in your warrior backbone, and at same pop cap heavy destroyers are both tougher and fulfill a much more needed role of anti vehicle.

-Heavy Destroyers: As destroyers a small reduction in cost maybe, but i think they are pretty close to balanced now

Attack Scarabs: These need something, more survivabilty maybe? not sure. What function are they meant to perform? (in TT its a speed bump). In the video of them they were shown swarming over and destroying infantry, and in the right up they were said to be hard to kill by infantry and needed artillery, however they are to weak to be speed bumps as in TT, and infantry weapons wipe them out in seconds. I sent 4 squads of 15 past a group of 3 SM squads, and they were cut to pieces before reaching them, i think 4 actually made it to the infantry and of course died almost as soon as they did. Thats not very resistant to infantry weapons if you ask me!

-Lord Destroyer: This one is the worse balanced unit of necrons imo. A destroyer lord that is weaker than the base destroyer? what kind of sense does that make!
Toughen it up so its more powerful than normal destroyers and for all that is holy get rid of the stupid anti fluff vehicle possesion! As to what powers it should have, om not sure, its role in TT is the same as normal lord, but in DC its a secondary lord, maybe allow it 1 artifcat? as i said not sure, anything (even nothing if up its power so its ok that way) than the possesion!

-Necron Lord: No change except for powers.

-Solar Pulse: Contract the radius. Increase the recast timer by 20-30 seconds, but make the lord an infiltration detector as this is needed for that purpose.
-Resurrection Orb: Limit the cap to 24/20 (this should be the cap, its a bug and has been mentioned so will be fixed). Units resurrected return with 25% health instead of half (they are weak enough at half, the cap bug fix is all it needs imo).
Just to reitterate before someone says im pro necron and trying to buff them, these are where my opinions differ from the original post, im in favour of everything else including capping falyed ones and fixing their building damage (i.e so they dont 'spam' them and masacre bases)

[Technique]

-Lord Destroyer: This one is the worse balanced unit of necrons imo. A destroyer lord that is weaker than the base destroyer? what kind of sense does that make!
Toughen it up so its more powerful than normal destroyers and for all that is holy get rid of the stupid anti fluff vehicle possesion! As to what powers it should have, om not sure, its role in TT is the same as normal lord, but in DC its a secondary lord, maybe allow it 1 artifcat? as i said not sure, anything (even nothing if up its power so its ok that way) than the possesion!

They are a closecombat unit, not ranged. If you micro them properly, you can stasis units, they also do quite good dps in close combat. Possesion is a tough to use ability because it takes about ten seconds.

[Ragnarok]

They are a closecombat unit, not ranged. If you micro them properly, you can stasis units, they also do quite good dps in close combat. Possesion is a tough to use ability because it takes about ten seconds.

With the lowest HP of any commander (aside from individual units in the IG command squad), which probably answers the question of why they're not used often, if ever in most games.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

Solar Pulse is the same vegetable as CoTMS or Skull Probe or Wraithtomb etc. You can have 7 Psykers. You can already shut down buildings. I've been on the receiving end of SP including in my base and it wasn't a huge deal to move out of it. If NW range is reduced it will have even less impact. It will be more about defeating building guns/turrets or forcing a brief retreat.You can have 7 Psykers, but in all honesty it's a pretty stupid thing to do. 3 is more likely, maybe 1 more in the command squad. None of those other abilities are AoE either, and (more importantly) none of them affect every type of unit. Not to mention the platforms that deliver both Sabotage and Wraithtomb are just that bit more vulnerable than the Necron Lord.

In all honesty 40% accuracy debuff is going to win you most ranged slugmatches anyway. It just won't mean you get free shooting at a much bigger army, then use summoning to bugger off the moment it ends, among other nasty things.

[DukeRustfield]

I used to be down on attack scarabs and I still they they are a bit questionable. They are kind of like expensive paper kites THAT DO HUGE BUILDING DMG. So there are some uses for that. Not a whole lot, but other races have units that aren't used all the time too.

I think rez orb is one of the biggest problems with Necron. I won so many games with it alone. At 25% health I just feel like you're giving the enemy much more of an out. And it feels like it's a power that is closer to on par with Fear/Invis. Even a TS scavaging takes a while. Not sure how long, but maybe 20 seconds for one squad? That's a long time and it's just 3 dudes.

But yah know, everyone has their own opinion.

[Troubleshooter]

Hmm... Not sure what to make of the change list other than I like most of it.

As others have said - the destroyer cost reduction is too steep. Personally, I would rather see a NW nerf across the board, a slight decrease in build time (standard increase from the nerfed base build time) and make destroyers worth the cost paid for them by upping their CC damage and some added disruption power. I would rather have fewer but stronger destroyers than more spammable versions of whats out there now.

Technique is a hard core abuser - I know because he schooled me in IG abuse in 1.41 :p If he says destroyers are good with a touch of micro, I am willing to take him at his word. I personally don't care for them as-is though - but then I don't build many commissars either :)

NW need a Fire on the move accuracy reduction - not too much mind you - but SOME, just to keep the silly glide-o-death from making me laugh so much it causes me to mess up my micro.

I like the damage resistance added to the lightning field and the global timer (except for the NL teleport, he better spawn with that or the mine fields that invariably grow around his corpse will cost you dearly.)

Solar pulse... I say leave the radius as-is, and rather than shut down all ranged activity in the AOE, just nerf the ranged damage accuracy for the duration.

Flayed - Fix the AoE base bashing and I like them as-is. They work well for what they are good for - if you stand and fight them, you break and lose in CC. If you dance them the NW's near by gun your broken ass down. Flayed are great "people movers" in a game that punishes dancing shoes. Add in the slow-effect power and/or allied movement spells like CoT or entangle and FO's rock.

Lord destroyers. Hmmm... Don't much care for them - would like them to be more visually impressive AND have a similar "oh shit" effect when they roll up on a battle. No idea how to do it.

Would like a speed boost to the monolith though. Awakened monos are teleport only based on their movement speed.

[DukeRustfield]

I am against NW fotm penalty.

As for Flayeds being ppl movers, that's just not how it would work out. They pop out of the ground at some semi-random spot you wanted, and the enemy walks away. At that point, they will never again be near FO unless they choose to. And since NW are faster than FO, if they can kite NW, they can more than do the same to FO. Make sense?


In all honesty 40% accuracy debuff is going to win you most ranged slugmatches anyway.
No, it won't. Because when armies are surrounded in a giant green cloud they do the same thing whether it's 40% accuracy or -100% accuracy (they shoot themselves): they leave the cloud. Really guys, if as a Necron player, with the slowest units in the game, I had no problem getting out of it, why does everyone else have a problem?

And saying just because the other abilities weren't AE is a non-issue. That's back to the "nothing will be balanced unless it's all exactly the same" mantra. Skull Probes didn't work and CoTMS was new. I bring out my 1k power monolith and it's shut down and killed in 5 seconds because of a T2 power. That's pretty hardcore.

[Technique]

:iws: Yes you can close combat destroyers. But they also have move bitch get out the way(forced pathing). So you cant tie them up. They are faster than any unit that can put them in close combat. They deal 100dps, they have a gigantic range. So they only get tied up, if you have no micro. The only change i would suggest for them, is dropping their price by maybe, 25 power. I will post some replays for you, and link them in a few minutes.
To end. Thanks.

Appl i cant say rofl alot. :Puppy::busted:

[GRIM Ripper]

that is total BS that destroyers are easy to tie up in melee... have you not noticed how fast they are? or the wall of necron warriors they SHOULD be behind? youre talking about a vaccuum situation of destroyers vs a whole army. if theyre running around chasing destroyers, then theyre not attacking something else. only a total numbnut would try to kamikazi through 3 squads of warriors to melee your destroyers. and investing full jump squads to tie up ONE vehicle instead warriors is good for YOU. not to mention they dont exactly do piss damage in melee either....

AND, their melee CAN be very useful actually... but of course you only look at the disadvantages of everything that is necron. youve got a fast attack versatile VEHICLE that can tie up ranged squads without fear of any damage (in melee) if the situation calls for it... need to freeze up those HB squads that would otherwise shred your warriors? no problem. ive played necrons into the upper 1300s and have used destroyers PLENTY of times to great success... in fact i seriously cant even believe that anyone thinks theyre even bad AT ALL. 125 power would be an absolute joke.

[Troubleshooter]

I am against NW fotm penalty. I worked well for Oblits in 1.51 WA. I think a slight nerf on NW's would be reasonable. Especially if coupled with my other suggestion of lowering build times so that they are more quick to mass/reinforce.


At that point, they will never again be near FO unless they choose to. again, you are looking at this like the map is 128x128 with no terrain. You cant run forever, and semi-free NW and the NL crono-thingy combo with flayed keeping the enemy from planting feet means you are doing damage to them while they run around in circles trying to avoid pathing glitches or running down a dead end.

You have a point that they can be kited easy on their own, but then this would provide a disincentive to use them without ranged support.

It may just be my utilitarian side showing, but I dont see FO's as real CC units as much as I see them as battle field shaping units. The force the enemy to do something that he does not want to do. Be that DS'ing his HQ and teleporting back when the enemy responds to keep them off your advancing NW's... or using them to break morale in large groups that were planning to hold ground... I dont think of them as Zerk/ASM/RAPs in that sense. Perhaps thats my blind spot, but I really dont think that Necrons need any real CC type assault unit. Flayed are a threat and a menace more than they are a CC unit IMO.

[Searaven]

I have to say that these are definately some of the best Necron solutions posted thus far.

I have to agree with what Troubleshooter said about Flayed Ones - although being a big fan of the original DoW, I'm used to all melee units operating in this manner, as deterrents which allow you to force your opponent to manuever how you want him, not super powerful pwnage (kroot and zerks. . . guhh). Perhaps it would be good to give them a bit more morale and HP, which would serve them better in this role, rather than messing with their damage which is already pretty good. This is assuming their base-wrecking capabilities are brought down to an acceptable level. It would also help if they had a research of some sort to slightly increase their movement speed, at least to the level of the Necron Warriors.


[Destroyers] also have move bitch get out the way(forced pathing).
Laugh out loud. Yeah, I actually didn't even realize they could be tied up for a long time because I'm used to just telling my vehicles to move behind the enemy when they get targetted by enemy inf (ie. I'm a complete whore). I think maybe destroyers could use a very slight cost reduction but 125 is, as someone else said, a bit ludicrous.

The Lord Destroyer is supposed to be a hero? hmm . . . yeah, a super expensive, fragile unit whose redeeming quality is supposed to be the ability to sacrifice itself and take control of another, usually quite a bit cheaper, unit is not a very attractive option. He needs some work. What if he cost a bit more, but was allowed to keep his body after possession? I think that would be nice. It's not like it's terribly easy to possess a vehicle anyway, being a unit in tier 4 there is more than sufficient firepower around at that stage to take him out in seconds when he starts doing his big, flashy, obvious animation.

[Energizer Bunny]

Well I was gonna ignore this thread, but the offer of whole grain was just too tasty to resist :p

I agree with most of the changes. It's absolutely crucial that the first balance patch does not over react to the Necron position at present. Small changes are needed to a few units: anything too large and the Necrons will be borked for sure.

With regards to your specific changes
- Destroyer cost: Afraid I agree with what the others have said. I have always quite liked destoyers anyway and that sort of cost buff would absolutely turn them into the new LS

- Destroyer Lord. A unit that defies convention in my opinion. People see it as a T4 vehicle and therefore immediately measure it against the predator/LR etc. I think its better to see LD's as more of a vehicular sorceror. You're buying it for its abilities, not for its damage or HP. Building them is a calculated risk to take over an enemy's vehicles, at which point you can theoretically keep the Lord alive indefinately.

- Wraiths. A unit which I am utterly positive is going to be a future IMBA. Personally I like them, and feel they are only one step away from greatness. They can be buffed a little but need to be really careful. Too much HP and their constant kill animations are going to make them a real bitch to kill

- Agree other points

- Re Lord's abilities, he has so many I would have been shocked if some weren't op and some up. Solar pulse is the chief issue for sure - lengthen recharge time and stop it affecting buildings imho. Also stop NL being able to use more than one ability at once (i.e. no chronometer and solar pulse at the same time)

Overall a nice list. Good to see somebody calling for some balanced changes rather than the endless cries to nerf the entire necron race.

[ImmortalChaos]

I say NWs can keep all their damage, HP, 25% WBB and FOTM accuracy under a simple consequence: Disruption feild doesn't add any range to the ranged weapon. That way, they HAVE to march of death you, else they wont even be shooting against shooty troops. This also lets NWs remain superior to every other troop, but they are easily tricked and pulled into traps, and can be microed around so they dont get many shots off.

Flayed should lose to 50% WBB for a 25% like NWs, have lower building damage, be capped at 3 and enjoy an upgrade for T3 (something like Dukes "catacombs").

Destroyers could use a slight cost reduction, say from 250 to 200. 125 would be, as Ripper has already stated, a complete joke.

Solar pulse recharge time just needs a massive nerf. Perhaps a smakk decrease on the AoE size, but the worst thing is definately that they can use it 2 times every engagement.

[DukeRustfield]

youve got a fast attack versatile VEHICLE that can tie up ranged squads without fear of any damage (in melee) if the situation calls for it
Now you're saying it's a good thing Destroyers can be tied up? This is exactly the job that Wraiths were designed for. They are so fast they make Destroyers look like Flayeds. They enter synchs (if the job is to tie up) so they get protection instead of knock down like Destroyer. Oh. And they cost 1/4th as much as Destroyers and do more than double the dmg. My beef, which I brought up, is Destroyer cost. It just isn't remotely worth 250.

Trouble, you can't use FO to force the enemy off your advancing NW because: they are slower than your NW and they have no range. So they could do the grandma tactic of yelling, "don't make me come over there and smack you with my shoe." While you're saying the maps aren't all giant, they aren't all small either. People will move because of advancing NW, not because of Flayeds, which will be behind the NW because they are slower. After the initial shock, FO are useless.

Destroyers will never be the new LS because they are firm Tier2 and Necrons have no ability to rush to that let alone afford spamming them without dumping resources into power gens.

Destroyer Lord != Sorcerer. Sorc is T2. DL is T-fuxining-4. And honestly it's questionable which unit is better, which speaks volumes.

NL is the only commander of Necron (Okay, DL is technically a commander). His abilities are ridiculously expensive and make the unit more costly after each purchase. I think Solar has to affect building guns as that's at least half its glory. A slow-moving army needs them to fight the Orkses and IG and overall turret spammers of the world. IG's CS has some pretty insane abilities (invuln myself, airstrike myself, then lightning strike, and disable that land raider over there, *yawn*), so do Eldar and Orks and SM, etc.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

No, it won't. Because when armies are surrounded in a giant green cloud they do the same thing whether it's 40% accuracy or -100% accuracy (they shoot themselves): they leave the cloud. Really guys, if as a Necron player, with the slowest units in the game, I had no problem getting out of it, why does everyone else have a problem?It's not honestly that easy, if the pulse is used right. Units either have to move towards the necrons (and thus come in range of them while not firing back) or move away from them and thus more often than not move out of their attack range and continue to not be shooting. All the while they ARE taking damage from necron ranged attacks. Add in Chronometron (which in all honesty is pretty much built to be used here) and they have a hard time leaving the cloud in any way promptly. And if they do, just summon back to your base, wait out the recharge, and do it again.

[Deaths Abyss]

Id like a 3-4 sec reduction on the time that it takes possesion to activate.

[Energizer Bunny]

Destroyer Lord != Sorcerer. Sorc is T2. DL is T-fuxining-4. And honestly it's questionable which unit is better, which speaks volumes.

That was intended purely as an analogy for a unit which you purchase for its abilities rather than its damage/hp.

Regarding which is better, it completely depends on the circumstances. Sorc better vs units but I'd like to see a Sorc go into a fight with a predator and come out full health and with a free predator.

[DukeRustfield]

All I can tell you Noze is look at the replays to see how easy it is to get out of the cloud.

First off, you shouldn't be letting NW get close to you. That's a given. So you're at medium/long range when the cloud comes in and it's a short hop out of it. If you're a cloaker like Chaos and let them get right on top of you and get cloaded, then I have no sympathy, that's what it was designed to do.

[eXarchProXy]

All I can tell you Noze is look at the replays to see how easy it is to get out of the cloud.

First off, you shouldn't be letting NW get close to you. That's a given. So you're at medium/long range when the cloud comes in and it's a short hop out of it. If you're a cloaker like Chaos and let them get right on top of you and get cloaded, then I have no sympathy, that's what it was designed to do.

Teleport spam makes this statement completely false.

cloaded? Solar pulse please! You don't seem to even know necrons well enough to make a post like this.

It's impossible to run from necrons because of their lack of a FOTM penalty. even if they move slowly they will kill a good bit of your squads who are running away.

[DukeRustfield]

Teleport spam. Yes, he spams it! And...and...that makes people DIE! And because NW have no FOTM penalty, even though you are 25% faster with more range...you can't run...if you run...your head will explode!!! I've seen it! It's a secret Necron ability kinda like the Death Star! When your back is turned ZZZAP! When you turn back around they hide it and shrug their shoulders like nothing happened! No one can ever run in the game ever in fact! Just uninstall it now before it seeps out and you can't run in real life and you get teleport spammed TO DEATH!

[FallenByTheHand]

Isn't that exactly the point of running away? of getting losses because you are shot at?

Since the new 10% accuracy at FotM this is maybe less an issue, but they are still shooting at 10% while you aren't. And other troops will not fall behind, warriors will. Precides, I have the impression some people want to undo the fotm penalty that came with dc. If that happens it doesn't matter who you're running from, you will take losses.

Running is a tactic for survivability. You move your troops out so you will be having any troops left at all. Running means your weaker anyway on that moment.

[Troubleshooter]

Ok duke - I get your point about Flayed. My experience is different however, when I use them that is. But after thinking back on it, I generally run away from the whole Necron force at that point and then turn and fight them at arms length... not that it matters with IG since you are already dead :p

When I use them I always drop Flayed behind the enemy, they auto break and run in all sorts of directions - mainly twords thier base. This leaves the NW alone in the rear trying to catch up, but generally it gets me in range of something useful without resistance, which (IMO) is the main point - slow moving crons need do-dads that get them in range of valueable things w/o taking massive casualties on the long glide over.

You are still not addressing the fact that the crono-thingy can be used to get far more out of your FO' NW combo. :p But I do get your point - I just dont happen to agree 100% that after the shock, FO's are useless... based on how I have used them (admittedly usually near base structures, wich move only slightly slower than FO's.)

[Fixer]

Running away is all very well until the Necrons get into your base and then demolish your generators and vital buildings. Your army may survive but any chances of winning soon dissapear.

You see building are static, so it's very hard to micro those away. All you need is one free Necron Lord or Flayed one unit to go on demolition duty and eventually the Necrons will just grind you down with spam, since you cannot tech advance, build your special weapons and if the Necrons gain enough of a foothold they can advance their tech easilly.

Not to mention it's easy to spam them directly to the battlefield against ranged units while the battle is going on. With the various Necron abilities returning units to life or shutting down opponent squads/ranged firepower it's only a matter of time until the enemy is ground into the dust beneath a tidal wave of spam.

With marines the only way to deal with this is a large amount of morale breaking units so the Necrons cannot harm you.

If you actually attempt to attack the Necron base in this time with a unit of course, the necrons can always summon something back to deal with it quickly.

[eventhorizon]

Right Duke...I have read every post in this thread, as well as the many suggestions you have made, and to my astonishment, I agree with a lot of them but they need refining. I like a few of ImmortalChaos' ideas and after I take another trip into the land of the DPS tables, I will either respond here, or produce a similar thread with my ideas for Necron balance.

All in all, good points so far, for the most part (ridiculous Destroyer buff not included) : P

[Slow_Runner]

Please stay on topic of necrons, not Tau, nor how to bomb Relic hq because you think they purposefully overpowered 2 races.

The posts off topic have been deleted.

[4Servant]

humor on relic news when in earth would that be possible??? *sigh

[nireland666]

Necrons are just fine people. I wiped out 3 Necron players while they attacked my 2 friends defending our base in Gates of Ultramar. We were playing as marines.

Quite simply, all you need is assault marines on overwatch and then research melta mombs, then power swords (for increased damage vs buildings with leader, then powerfist to pwn buildings.

Jump in, 1st melta Summoning Core and blow it up, no teleport back (the fools lol) and no more flayed ones, then attack builders, then when melta bombs are recharged, melta the base, unless he has a spare monolith, bye bye!

If they managed to teleport back to the monolith jump away and capture territory etc. Rinse repeat, then YOU grind THEM to death!

Look here http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=121496 for similar tactics, but come on people get your finger out and figure out how the professional gamers do it!!!! I am by no means professional, but DC got balance tested by very good gamers, so if you don't find it balanced.... what does that say about you? :mag:

[Nobunaga]

yeah gotta love that Krootox balance right? Generally speaking we're talking about 1v1 auto here. You don't have to time to sit around fully upgrade ASM get about 5 squads then launch a daring raid. Why? because he'll have wiped out your base once you've got the 3rd squad out. Aside from that the Summoning Core is bugged and is 100% guaranteed to be fixed in the patch. So where does that leave you? "Yay I beat a noob (or several noobs) in team games" doesn't = a balanced race.

[HarmlessPenguin]

I like most of the suggestions, but I've always thought a 50 energy decrease in Destroyer and Heavy Destroyer price was enough...I think the range decreases should be enough to prevent to gunning down of half your army when you run =P (Fallen, Relic's stated that the entire point of the FotM penalty was to make retreating more viable), Not sure about the Flayed One's changes or the NL ones though they seem ok.
I think Wraiths would be fine at 1 pop if they had their hp and dmg scaled back just a tad...and I'd like to see the second Warrior upgrade boost the hp of Immortals and perhaps the Wraith upgrade to increase the speed of Flayed Ones up to NW speed.

As for the DL...I'd just like to see him with more hp and a larger range on Stasis personally

[PlzPwnMeKThx]

Im pretty fine w/ those changes. However, I do agree that a half break into the destroyer and heavy destroyer is a bit too cheap for necs. Also, I find destroyer lord is an excellent unit. he gets that ability that stops units from doing anything at all, and I think that is quite devastating enough for infantry to move infor the kill.

As for another thing, What would you necron players think about teleporting only goes to Necron monolith. not Every other building. I find that necron moving slow should be its weakness and that is what the necrons must find a counter for & build in a certain way to prevent that. Slow movement should stay and always stay as necrons main sole weakness. They should not be able to teleport to every single LP that gets attacked. THat ruins its whole mobility. However, halfway across the map to attack the enemy base to get attacked from the other direction @ his HQ is just wrong, so I think teleportation should be only to the Monolith and not every other structure.

[Sweetsoftpower]

Teleporting to the monolith would be a great change, methinks. Necrons are a slow army, if they need help at their base, they should be able to teleport back and defend it. However, they'll need to remarch back to your base. This would prevent Necron players from securing a random Obelisk and teleporting to that, reinforcing a little bit and going back in.

Personally, I think the 2nd upgrade to Warriors comes too early. The 2nd monolith upgrade should give the 2nd Warrior upgrade. Also, first NW upgrade is fine in my opinion. It's the 2nd upgrade. Remove that range modifier on it and I think it'd be goods.

Solar pulse recharge does need to be increased. As of now, in a major fight a NL can't cast Solar Pulse at least twice giving Necrons WAY too much of an advantage against range.

To Nireland, we need to play a game sometime. See how well your ASMs do.

[eventhorizon]

I think that preventing Necron from teleporting to any location other than the monolith would take away one of few reasons to actually expand and cap more points than those in the immediate base (aka, a bad idea). It would certainly help out other players, but what about on a big map, or even a map like meeting of minds or fallen city, where your main income might well be at the big generator. If you cannot defend that, and that is your main income, your reinforcements would plummet and cripple you.

[DukeRustfield]

Without teleporting, Necron teammates are severely less helpful in multiplay. It's not always possible to build a monolith in each of your ally's base, but you can stick a gen there much easier.

[PlzPwnMeKThx]

Yeah that is a good point. But, I just find it odd in 1v1 That necrons are supposedly low mobility, but move around like eldar webway gates. IMHO, there seriously needs something to be done w/ its teleportation. Maybe only HQ's? I'm not sure if these things can be possible, but as for thermo plas gen defense, they can simply put in gauss turrets. Every other race usually has a thermo gen to defend as well and they compensate w/ turrets.

[DukeRustfield]

Well I said put in a timer +30 on port.

[eventhorizon]

Other races can also put production buildings next to Thermos, or use some form of Transport (Rhino, Chimera, Devilfish, Trukk, Falcon) to get to their gens. I'm up for a timer increase on teleport, but 30 is a bit harsh- doesn't it take 2:30 to recharge already?

[PlzPwnMeKThx]

It is true that other races recieve transports & building production units near thermo's however, I have never seen people begin building barracks next to thermo's unless its next to their base & then begin quick production once they see an attacking force assemble in front of the Thermo. I am not saying that this is impossible, but necron slow mobility should be a weakness the other player should try to exploit. I think it might be me, but the Gauss turret is quite the beastly defense turret compared to ones like the IG.

Maybe have necrons able to teleport to Obelisiks & HQ's, but the obelisk must be LP 2 or higher? Even then, I guess the 2:30 Teleport cool-down is quite massive still.

[eventhorizon]

That still leaves out the 'power gens in your ally base' thing with teamgames. Right- here's a tip for you all before you start to nerf the teleport to oblivion. Use a fast attack squad such as ASM, Raptors, Stormboyz; jump the Necron base and start to have at all their power generators.

Most Necron players will teleport some of their Warriors back to deal with you, at which point you can jump out. Now there's not as much army to deal with approaching you. Rinse and repeat as necessary- you need to make the Necron player waste his teleports.

[Chris]

^ But you also lose dudes in the process, especially if the necron has LP2/turrets. I think inexperienced necron players should really start using these more, because I'll bet my left testicle that they're going to atually need them post-patch.

[DukeRustfield]

I love the idea of harrass slowing Necron. Where they have to teleport back to save their base. With the slow speed of Necron, that's a huge deal. Even as it stands currently I've used that tactic a lot. The problem is, unlike most fights with Necs, the teleport can put them right on top of you, so when you retreat, they can really take a chunk out of you.

[Chris]

Indeed. Which often leaves jump troops as the only serious harassing option and only 3 of the 7 races have them in tier 1. Out of those 3 I'd only feel comfortable with ASM because of their superior HP:Cost ratio. Raptors have terrible HP for cost + may not be able to jump out fast enough. Stormboyz are just so fragile that I feel that anything short of 3 squads + nob leaders isn't going to make it out alive and even if they're cheaper than ASM/raptors, wasted resources are wasted resources.

This is all part of the reason why ppl dislike being unable to fight necrons head on. If you can't fight someones army head to head you try to harass their econ but if you can't harass their econ you're left with hard teching.

[Quex13]

Tau have SS, but they're out of the question.

[FallenByTheHand]

If the necron player can build an obelisk near your base, you weren't doing well already. Necrons are a bit more of a turtle race so any SP near your base should be under your control. Yes, warriors can tele back, but they need to march the whole part again.

Remember; capped points are useless for necrons; they need to have obelisks both for the teleport and for the increased production.

[Sweetsoftpower]

I see the light now... having Necrons teleport back only to Monoliths would balance them better in 1v1 games, but on bigger maps(or god forbid team games) they will be severely limited in their mobility.

I guess that's why Relic has teleport the way it is now? Best of both worlds?

Chris on post #51 is dead on about LP2s. Believe it or not, an LP2 plus a guass turret in the beginning against Tau and their vespid rush just got obliterated. Unless they go for your Obelisk instead of your turret, then you have warriors plus a turret killing off their Vespids. Be more willing to sacrifice a 25 power Obelisk for a few Vespids.

The real question is, how to balance Teleport for both single and multiplayer games? Is Relics current system the best of the both worlds?

As per the post above me, i've often seen players capping points near my(Necron) base rather than their own and building LPs on them. Trying to box Necron in. It's never worked against me....but people do try it.

[Troubleshooter]

As per the post above me, i've often seen players capping points near my(Necron) base rather than their own and building LPs on them. Trying to box Necron in. It's never worked against me....but people do try it. Its a logical manouver, but it dont work :p. It only took 2 trys to know that NW are just too strong to try to hold a forward SP from them without turrets galore.

[Deathscythe61]

I would think perhaps weaken their Gens? (After fixing their Summoning Core armor) That way jump troops may have a better time forcing the 'cron back to his base via teleport. Also, since the Necron economy is nothing to scoff at, and that they may have a turret or two, you might just do damage, but not kill off the necrons chance to keep playing.

[Hiroshi_Tea]

bah
let's go weaken the gens
so races that actually have jumptroops stand a chance!

[Troubleshooter]

bah
let's go weaken the gens
so races that actually have jumptroops stand a chance!

LOL... IG always get left out :p

[TinyLilly]

Give jump troops to IG. Like t1 bouncy ogryns oO
Other than that i think most of the changes are acceptable. I would really like to see other necron units in more use. Maybe at cost of "little" NW nerf give some more AI dmg to Immortals. I understand they are supposed to be something like Eldars Fragons with their only purpose in undeath to kill vehicles and buildings but Eldars have also some other units specialised for other tasks, while Neccys have never ending waves of NWs only.. and maybe FOs for building bashing and morale dmg (never really had em do much to my GM with execute oO).

[Nobunaga]

Why exactly is the Necron going to bother teleporting back to his base anyway? If it were me I'd continue on and crush the other guy's base instead. The monolith is pretty tough, I just don't see jump troops taking it down anytime soon. Early in tier 2 when the major Necron assault tends to come in there's no way you can afford to be attacking with jump troops and still have enough guys to defend you base. Due to warriors high AB damage they'll win a base trade everytime.

So in summary an intelligent Necron won't respond to your harass, instead he'll accept losing the gens and crush your base.

EDIT: TinyLilly I like the Ogryn idea at least. How exactly will making both NW and Immortals AE units encourage using both of them? Surely it would be better to lower Warriors' AV damage instead?

[eventhorizon]

Because the other army usually has the option of building a Production Building out of your sight while he bashes your Monolith to death and you are killing his 'main' base. Of course, by the time you have killed his base, and your monolith is almost gone, you slowly realise that he has stuff elsewhere on the map, and you have no means to teleport back now. gg, no re!

[Sweetsoftpower]

Hmmmm... interesting point Nobunaga.

However, how much does it cost for the other 6 races to build a barracks or another unit producer on an LP somewhere else on the map? If you can't invest the 350 power to build another Monolith, you might lose. Why not teleport back, decimate his army and walk back?

I've seen quite a few base trades go wrong for Necrons. I've always found it best to just teleport back, also, by doing this you've secured victory if you play map control correctly.

Also, that tells me the Teleport ability with Necrons is fine as is. It's the best possible solution for both single and multiplayer games.

I really, really hope next patch they do the following to Necrons:

Make Necron Warriors 2nd upgrade after the 2nd Monolith upgrade.
Make Necron Warriors 2nd upgrade not give a range bonus.
Lower the cost for Destroyers by 50 power.
Lower building damage across the board for Necron Warriors.
Hard cap Flayed Ones at 2(or 3) squads.
Add small infantry disruption to Destroyer/Heavy Destroyers melee or increase their melee damage to Infantry/Heavy Infantry.


Necron warriors as they sit are... kinda... KINDA like Guardsmen. Guardsmen with anti-everything Guass cannons and tough as nails. Guardsmen roll lots of infantry but need armor to back them up. Necrons need... warriors.. because they can do everything once they get their 2nd upgrade. :\ This needs to change. Every other race doesn't do jack-nuffin' to buildings without building a specialized troop for it. Necrons should have to do the same.

The other thing I can't seem to figure out is double Monolith NW spam. You can always say, 'Go for the Obelisks' but if it's a map any other than Outer Reaches, that's going to be hard. Most maps give you several Req points near you. Smart Necron players will have those caps and the squads already out to defend them. Then it's just spamspamspamspamspambakedbeansandspam(!). Even if you nerf their building damage, you can't stop that kind of spam. That's like stopping 8 squads of anything. It's just... too much, and in this case; it's too much too fast.

How do you balance that? Make NW cost power in tier 2 and more power in tier 3? Make the price of Necron warriors go up once you get their upgrade?

Okay, i'm rambling. Off to play more Necrons online and feel dirty.

[Nobunaga]

Come on how quickly are those jump guys gonna be bashing your HQ down? Even assuming you had no defense whatsoever (and you're likely to have a turret or 2) you could still build stuff to slow them down (destroyers for example) or just dance builders around repairing it. The Monolith is very durable. Yeah they can build other stuff elsewhere but you'll find it fairly quickly (since Necrons generally attack in a linear fashion destroying your base and LPs from one side to the other) and then it's gg.

Considering harass is the shining golden answer to the apparent Necron imba one would hope it didn't just get you into a base trade that you're quite likely to lose.

You probably don't want to teleport back because that gives the other guy time to tech to where he has a chance. I think Necrons aren't so bad tier 3. Res Orb still needs looking at but late tier 2 and onwards they seems to be fairly easy to deal with.

Possibly it just seems that way because only very poor players allow me to survive that long.

[eventhorizon]

You assume that a player is going to go for the kill with a single squad of jump troops? Please, any decent player is going to have some squad with a good shooting ability popping off any and all scarabs that come out of the Monolith asap.

[DukeRustfield]

Guys, if you consider all the changes I suggested, NW will do shit building dmg. So if you harrass him, you're very likely going to be doing significantly more harm than he is. Especially if your army just flees from him. So he'll have to teleport back. And with teleport on a longer timer he'll be hamstrung for more time.

It's also pretty dicey since he'd have to take Immortals to do dmg and Immortals can't port. If he flees with all his NW, they will be pretty vulnerable. So he'll more likely split his army. And with the range reduced on NW it won't be insta slaughter with them just porting in and you'll have more chance to get away.

Power gens are already pretty fragile. If they were even more so, I don't think it would be good at all.

[Nobunaga]

Well ASMs have dodgily good ranged attacks so they'd work ok. For anyone else not so much. I thought we were talking about a harass. So yeah that assumes only jump troops because the rest of your dudes are getting stomped back at your base.

The point is that harass against a good Necron will turn into a base trade most of the time IMO. A base trade that the Necron will win.

Yeah with a building damage nerf on warriors it would become a lot more viable. I was talking about the situation now but yeah your changes would probably fix that.

Tbh since I only play Guard I don't really care about jump troops anyway. It just really annoys me when people cite jump troops as the reason Necrons are balanced.

[Hirmetrium]

ASM ranged attack is verging on broken. stick them on F2 and see...but scarabs are have 'sync' capture animations, which make them invunerable. you can tell because the lights on their back go out.

[Quex13]

I hate whenever anyone says one thing is balances out races. Odds are, one race doesn't have that. Like building turrets for detection against infiltraitors. Yeah, right, see, Tau don't have turrets.

Those changes seem good for me. Enough said. Although I would like something being done about the NL spawning where he died. That gets really annoying for both the player who has the NL in his or her's base, and for the player who has his or her's NL stuck in someone else's base. I think it would just be a better change. No race can instantly have harrass in someone else's base. It's bad enough for just the NL, but when he deepstrikes 6 squads of FO, goodbye base.

[W0lf]

Wraiths are crap.

anyone who believes this should not be allowed to comment on balance issues.

[Deathscythe61]

I don't exactly see Wraiths owning up the game - the only conceivable issue (Which i have not seen being an issue yet) can be decapping while invulnerable! Otherwise, it dies to fast to be useful.

[War-Reborn]

necron builders have a good dection radious, an wraiths are one of the better dector units, fast an the abilty to phase which although short lived most stealth units have very low hp an die quickly once detected, as for reducing veicles cost, and increasing there power, sorry but thats just crazy, Necrons already get some of the games best an most powerful infantry, the way there economy works mean they usally make lots of money, if anything things should be heading the other way around with units getting more expensive, for a side with such good infantry, i dont think there veicles, which are already good need any further buffing.
You only have to look at IG, they get some good veicles, although i'd say there were on a par with rather than better than, the other good mechanzed sides, but look at there infantry, its very poor, not only is there very little choice, of unit type, but its pretty weak an expensive too, 1 guards man squad costs more than a warrior sqaud an is inferior in every respect, not only that but you have to rely on them in tier 3, were they scale very badly indeed compared to other infantry types.
Theres one thing i think alomst everyone will agree on an thats that necrons dont need buffing anywere

[Searaven]

War-Reborn, you aren't looking at the big picture. You're just seeing the simple black-and-white, "Necrons don't need buffing in any way". That is true at the moment, but still, there are underused aspects of them that, if buffed appropriately, would give them more options and better internal balancing, which they will need following the inevitable Necron Warrior nerf.

Necrons in general are imbalanced, but obviously the destroyer has nothing to do with it. You can't just scream, "Imba! Nerf!", without actually analyzing the source of the problem, otherwise you will either end up missing it completely or creating even more problems. Honestly, this stuff should be blindingly obvious.

[War-Reborn]

wraiths are fine, there an excellent dector unit, an so are builders so i dont see issue there, the veicles, the necron lord veicle only costs 3 cap unlike any other tier 4 tank an if you use him well you can possess some good units, all the other necron veicles are fine, aswell so i dont see problems there. Flayed ones are pretty tough an i think a cap of 3 should be aplied, warriors i dont have issue with, the things that affect me are there very cheap especially in later tiers were there cost bear no resemblance to there performance.
At tier 1 they should stay as is but once upgraded there reinforcement cost should double and at tier 3 it should go up by as much again so tier 3 warriors cost 105 each to reinforce, this way there cost will scale according to there performance.
Imortals seem fine to me but when engaged in cc they loose all there power, a small upgrade to there range i would have no issue with.
So yes there you have it no buffs needed, i dont see any really under used units, wraiths can be used very effectivley if you need a dector fast you can pump one out (if you have'nt got one tucked away rdy already) get it to the req location quickly, use phase for some extra time if it comes under fire, job done a useful unit for its required purpose.
at tier 2 i find imortals pretty usefull against walkers etc, why does every necron unit have to scale into tier 3?, they have more than enough potent units that do a fine job at tier 3, i find imortals fine against short range walker type units, its a ealry av unit like IG sentinals, at later tiers you have veicels to do the AV job.
what need's toning down are the lords ott abilties, invisabilty for the whole army should go (i think it should go full stop, necrons are not about stealth) solar flare needs a smaller area of effet, (area of effect is actually bigger than the animation would suggest). Essence of nightbringer should be invunrabilty only not a health recharger aswell, health should remain static in nightbringer mode, the lords abilty to teleport should be an upgrade at the archive, i would add telportation in place of invisabilty, which i would junk altogether as it currenty makes assination games unplayable (like anyone plays these that much, but this mode simply proves the point thats hes to hard to kill), , when you tally up all his other upgrades aswell. thats all i would change for necrons in the comming patch.
These arnt big changes but these thing are best done in small stages as sublte changes can still have dramitic effects

[Deaths Abyss]

Invisibility is not a problem imo. Its pretty easy to detect. You just need the right units out. Invisibility on the monolith should go though.
A researchable pop cap of one for wraiths at the greater summoning core would be nice.
And make the possess ability activate faster!!

[JORUS-OTR]

@1.post from dukeRusty

destroyer 125 ... NO! i dont agree !
NW nerf sounds good , the fluff too ;)
rez orb nerf : OK ( the most imba thing after NW )

Immortals has crazy range, kill 5 chimeras in 10 seconds ... LQLQQ ?! ROFELE

[HarmlessPenguin]

yeah, Immortal range and damage are quite good at the moment and if they're getting meleed, it is almost certainly by infantry rather than a Walker, and they deal surprisingly good damage vs infantry in melee; 21.888 each vs heavy_med, ASM only deal 18.668 before upgrades. Their main weakness is just their poor health which is also a bit unfluffy...they may need a bit of a health boost after the NW nerfs as they'll become necissary for base assaults yet unable to teleport out of there if things go badly

[eventhorizon]

Please, ffs, don't touch the Immortals, they are perfect atm I think. They deal good damage but die to the wind! If anything, they need a nerf to their melee damage vs heavy infantry, but leave their range as it is!

[W0lf]

immortals are the best av in the game. couple that with already decent av on nw and theirs a big issue.

[eventhorizon]

You don't need to double nerf both Necron Warriors and Immortals when the issue is just Warrior damage.

[DukeRustfield]

No one said to nerf Immortals. The post said to buff Immortals. Cuz while they might pwn light vehicles easily, the problems start mounting with medium vehicles with some actual health. They just walk all over Immortals.

A glass cannon against things with >3K health whose job it is to crush infantry just doesn't work out very well. It's just that everyone does light vehicle fast tech and then goes "OMG Immortals stopped my rush!"

I don't think they need massive work, but smart players in later tiers just shut them down without much effort. It takes a lot more to disable FD/TB/psykers/hwt, etc.

[4Servant]

buff imortals rofl you seen the damage they do vs buldings and tanks wich my sm rockets do the same amout of damage for the same cost.
Imo immortals need nerf on building damage and small hp buff nothing more.

[War-Reborn]

yeah my upgrade the range a bit comment wasnt well explained, while i'd have no isssue with the range being increased, this would have to be a tier 3 upgrade, personally like i said in my post i dont see any issue with imortals, there a ealry av unit, and every necron unit should'nt have to scale to tier 3, there usefull wheh you get them, and at later stages you get vecicles to do that job

[DukeRustfield]

What was stated was they should get a health buff. Missile Marines are also much faster, can hop in transports, can get spiffy commanders, and don't die if people look at them wrong.

[Searaven]

I have to agree with a DukeRustfield, glass cannon Immortals are silly. They need more hp to stay useful, if it means a damage decrease or a new upgrade to spend on or whatever then so be it.


there a ealry av unit, and every necron unit should'nt have to scale to tier 3, there usefull wheh you get them, and at later stages you get vecicles to do that job

I'm sorry, but this is a very poor philosophy. Every race should have the option of intantry-based AV. Furthermore, I hope I speak for others as well as myself when I say that I've had enough of unit obsolescence. Go back to Winter Assault or something because I don't want to see any more of that awful type of game design.

[HarmlessPenguin]

Yeah, I've always thought the low health of Immortals was rather silly especially considering how incredibly hardy the Warriors are...though a huge health boost isn't necissary; just give them a slight health boost and give them a res chance

[Chris]

They already have a chance to resurrect.

[War-Reborn]

I have to agree with a DukeRustfield, glass cannon Immortals are silly. They need more hp to stay useful, if it means a damage decrease or a new upgrade to spend on or whatever then so be it.



I'm sorry, but this is a very poor philosophy. Every race should have the option of intantry-based AV. Furthermore, I hope I speak for others as well as myself when I say that I've had enough of unit obsolescence. Go back to Winter Assault or something because I don't want to see any more of that awful type of game design.
what a ridiculas comment to make, which me makes me question, just how well thought out your argument is? Go back to WA dont make me laugh, at tier 3 everything but tier 3 was obsolete, ppl just spammed out endless numbers of tier 3 units an that was it, DC has the fewest number of units going obsolete due to the unit cap on tier 3 units, which means ppl need to use tier 2 units an veicles in conjuction with there elites, rather than as a stop gap to them.
Some units are going to be more prevalent than others, depending on what tier your currently in, but each unit has it niche an i can think of very few units that have no value, or are simply a complete waste. Even in tier 3 most units have a ability or skill thats makes them worth having, even if its just 1 squad.
An why should every race have same basic unit staples? differance is what makes the sides unique, an Chaos has far poorer AV infantry than necrons, at tier 2 imortals are very good, an while not so strong in tier 3 there is plenty of other AV options at that level for necrons, the idea is not to have every side have the same basic unit types, but rather an equal balance of AV AI AB options in the army as a whole

[HarmlessPenguin]

really? hm, I was not aware, likely due to the fact that res'ing at 25% of max health for an immortal doesn't mean much =P but yeah I still think a bit of a health buff for the immortals are in order should Warrior dmg against armored and fortified targets get nerfed, which I firmly believe should happen

[magicalcarpet]

Immortals are certainly weak but goddamn, damage wise I'd put them up there with best AV in the game.

They need a health buff and a damage decrease to bring them somewhere near their peers, such as firedragons. They also have surprisingly long range.. and they're really cheap!

[DukeRustfield]

They're not cheap in Necron dollars. Maybe they are compared to HD, but that's because HD are way too expensive.

The post assumes that NW will have their AV completely nerfed. Which means Necrons will HAVE to use Immortals and HD for any kind of AV/AB. And Immortals simply can't last higher tiers. Which is why I feel they should have a purchaseable buff. So they won't get immediately too powerful at T2 but you can still keep using them at T3/4.

[Searaven]

@War-Reborn
I realize that DC is much better in regards to unit obsolescence, that's why I made that "go back to WA" comment, because you seemed to be advocating it by saying it was OK for Immortals to become useless in late tier 2/tier 3.

The reason I think every race should have infantry-based AV options is that DoW is limited in it's cap system so that you only get 20 troop cap and 20 support cap, and these cannot be changed in any way in game. Half your tier 3 force will always be vehicles and half will always be infantry. If you have nothing in your infantry that can combat vehicles decently well (assuming Necron Warrior AV damage is nerfed, which it should and likely will be), then that means that most, if not all, of your vehicle cap must be focused toward AV, leading to lack of variety, which hurts the gameplay.

IG used to have this problem, which is exactly why Curse of the Machine Spirit was introduced.

The exception, of course, is when you've got something like the Tau Hammerhead, two of which can easily take out 20 cap of vehicles, but that isn't good either.

[Sweetsoftpower]

Hmmm... do Immortals need a buff or do Heavy Destroyers need a buff?

Heavy Destroyers rampage light vehicles, but i've found they don't do anything to actual vehicles. They get roasted by any sort of AV vehicles or infantry AV(Sentinels hurt :( ). The only solution for Necrons when it comes to Armor AV(Sentinels for example) are Immortals, which are weak on their own in the battlefield. God forbid your opponent locks down your Immortals while you vehicles AV. The only way to have a bulk force to keep your opponent in check are NWs. If you heavily nerf NW vehicle damage, Necrons would have to rely on Glass Cannons(far worse than Tau in my opinion) to defend themselves, which will result in Necrons gettin' spanked by vehicles in every game.

Point being, you can't completely take AV damage away from NWs otherwise the scale will tilt too far.

Personally, i've found Heavy Destroyers to be pretty useless outside of fighting Tau and Eldar. For some reason, HDs seem to do a ton of damage to those factions vehicles, but to anyone else they seem to faulter, especially for their extensive cost.

What about giving Immortals a slight buff to Health and reducing Heavy Destroyer cost. That'll make them both more effective at their job on the field, while-esk the NW AV damage is nerfed.

[Jay_Davis]

One other thing to note about Immortals is that because of their ressurection capability, when they start getting killed, you can't immediately start reinforcing them. So what happens is you have 5 of them, then, if you are watching closely, you have two of them when you can finally reinforce, then they are gone. If you are not watching closely, they are just gone. So I really think the sqaud size needs to be bigger (either adjusting the damage output appropriately or increasing them to 3 cap).

Also, I think the trick with warriors/immortals and vehcile/building damage is to let the warriors be able to do good damge to light vehicles and light buildings, but require the immortals for serious damage to the heavier stuff.

Just to add an idea I mentioned in another thread about flayers: Make their build time increase as you have more of them, like warriors do. I hate hard caps and this would be just as effective (assuming, of course, the times were balanced right). Obviously the special damage while broken needs to be fixed too.

[Nobunaga]

Hmm I'd like to see a replay with sents owning Heavy Destroyers personally. At any rate since when did glass cannon = Useless? Yes Necron players need to be careful with their Immortals, that doesn't mean that NW need to be able to take on vehicles though. I'm not saying that Immortals don't need a buff (I've never really seen them in action) necessarily. Being fragile however doesn't make a unit useless.

[DukeRustfield]

Glass cannon with really low movement speed who can be targetted by any number of AE abilities. Glass cannon vehicles (Skyrays, Land Speeders) are still pretty capable because a lot fewer things can hurt vehicles. But on infantry, it's rapeage.

Jay, you may not like hard caps, but that is the way DC is balanced and I think it works pretty well. It's just an option and every race has them.

[Akathrielah]

Heavy Destroyers rampage light vehicles, but i've found they don't do anything to actual vehicles. They get roasted by any sort of AV vehicles or infantry AV(Sentinels hurt ).


This makes little sense. (Not the infantry AV, but the sentinel remark). I really would like to see a replay. HDs seem to do a wonderful amount of damage against vehicles of all types. And the energy costs doesn't seem to be as steep as many are making it out to be.

[DukeRustfield]

Well, HD do about 109 DPS to Sents and Sents do about 136 to HD. HD have way more health (like 3k vs. 1k as I recall). But Sents are also much cheaper. And they can't be tied up in cc...

Though it's always hard to compare costs because Necron cost structure is completely different.

[nemarsde]

I think I'm racist! ;) I was playing against a mate the other day, me as SM vs Necrons. Anyway, afterwards he asked what I thought of Immortals and I couldn't answer. I don't even know what they look like!? So I said, "Necrons, they all look the fucking same to me." Terrible!!

Anyway, my point is Immortals can't be that useful as the Necron race stands, because I never even notice them. Might be that they don't need to be made more useful, just that NWs need to be less useful.

Tbh though, I agree with Chris in that I can't see how you're supposed to balance Necrons. Their implementation is really unique and makes them a worthy addition to the game, but it's also conceptually flawed almost, because the race has to be especially susceptible to early rushes up to a point, and then nearly indestructible after that point. It's the transition across this point, this fulcrum (if you will), that seems to be the problem.

[DukeRustfield]

People who know Necrons know Immortals and if you plan on having any kind of vehicles at all, YOU TARGET THEM FIRST. They are pretty obvious. NW with really big guns generally standing behind the main force (because if they attack moved, the NW have to move closer to be in range and the Immortals will stop a ways back because of their increased range).

I don't think the point was they become indestructible after a certain point. Because that's a free win in any team game or large map. It's obviously got to be more complex than that.

[Chris]

They're not cheap in Necron dollars. Maybe they are compared to HD, but that's because HD are way too expensive

Full squad of necron warriors = 175 power
Full squad of immortals = 205 power


I don't quite understand how you could possibly think immortals are anything BUT cheap. 135 power for the starting squad and 35 X 2 to reinforce to full strength. Their cost and damage is exceptional. Their range is decent but not exceptional for an AV unit. Only their HP lets them down but saying that, if you beefed up their hitpoints without altering something else you'd have an absolute monster of a unit.

A straight up buff would be madness, their damage:hitpoint ratio needs to be leveled out.

[DukeRustfield]

I said they should have a purchaseable HP buff in T3 so they can scale.

I haven't checked their costs, but I thought it was 45 each period. It's 45 to start and 35 to reinforce?

That's more than a Necron Lord. It's 3.4 Wraiths. It's almost a Destroyer (which are silly overpriced, admittedly). It's 80% of a Tomb Spyder. So yeah, it's a big outlay. It's certainly not cheap. There's no point when you can meh-off 200 power unless it's a MP game or you get a mega gen.

[Akathrielah]

There's no point when you can meh-off 200 power unless it's a MP game or you get a mega gen.


Or if your a race that doesn't depend on capping strat points early game, can have around 10 or more gens mid game, and whose basic units cost 0 req/power to build.

[DukeRustfield]

a) you're never going to have 10+ gens. Their cost would be:
0
20
40
60
80
100
120
140
160
180
And the last one, not sure the math, but it would take probably ~5 minutes to make. That's just for the last one. I've never once built a gen that high. I think the highest I ever got was a 140. And that includes copious multiplayer. It just isn't remotely worth it.

b) their basic unit costs 0 req true. But they also earn 0 req, so that is irrelevant.
c) of course they depend on capping strat points. But that's neither here nor there because their Obelisks only cost 25.
d) their basic unit costs 0 power for 3. And 3 is exactly as good as you'd think a squad of 3 with a max of 8 is. I.e., not.

But if you've got some replays of you spamming out cheapo Immortals for the win with your 10 gens, I'm sure it would be instructive. I sure would like to see it, as I've obviously done something wrong.

[eventhorizon]

Immortals have been invaluable to me against all races, but particularly IG- and they are quite affordable if you manage your economy properly, or know where the pause overwatch button is.

[Sweetsoftpower]

I'll get a replay of what I am talking about when I am not posting from random computers. This'll be like... Saturday-ish. If anyone is up for some testin' that is.