[1.3] Sandbags used like barbed wire

[adisca]

I've seen a lot of players use sandbags in the place of barbed wire lately. Unlike wire, sandbags cannot be "cut" and even halftraks cannot drive over sandbags. Furthermore, it doesn't even make sense that sandbags would be able to block off an area in this manner.

Please give engineers the free ability to "remove sandbags" from the battlefield. Let us send those sandbags back from whence they came!

[Sn1tch]

Or even better, let us jump over sand bags if there is no way around.

[Starfisher]

http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=115414

But, since this is still around in 1.3, I'll leave this thread open to discuss any new wrinkles that may have popped up. I don't think any did, but you never know.

[Tefeari]

Sandbags take an extremely long time to construct though in comparison to barbed wire. I have never had this problem.

[Mistenth]

There's a way to make it a serious problem. Someone posted how to do it fast, and it works ridiculously well. But let's not spread that info around shall we?

[darkweaver]

i think the same bug works with tanktraps too... like 90% sure

if it does that's an even bigger problem for axis... thankfully i havent really seen anyone abusing this much

[Tefeari]

Sounds like the problem is with this exploit not with sandbags.

I hope Relic has been made aware of it.

[Get_It]

I think that it would be nice - just hope that it wouldn't be annoying - if sandbags just 'disappeared' after getting too much damage from AT weapons, grenades or just - too many - shots from rifles and heavy machine guns.

Best regards,

[DrunkenOne]

Lol, this bug still wasn't fixed? Haven't played since the patch but assumed it would be. Ridiculous.

[Sporky]

There's a way to make it a serious problem. Someone posted how to do it fast, and it works ridiculously well. But let's not spread that info around shall we?
Oh come one everyone knows that unfinished sandbags/other constructions have full health...

[Brendan]

just allow apcs and tanks to run over sandbags.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

just allow apcs and tanks to run over sandbags.

Sandbags are crushable.

[Vicious_CB]

a grenade can take out sandbags if they bother you that much. most of the time sandbags build too slow to make it a good decision to build. 1v1s are too fast paced for that

[Neilius]

I consider using sandbags to block off areas a dishonourable move. It cheapens the game. As a matter of principle I would never do it, and I encourage all other players not to also.

[Valkeller]

hm… I never played a game where this was an issue, but maybe it is?! Then again as present (1.3) the Allied barbed wire do stop Axis light vehicle and builds way faster..

[AntiCommie]

I usually use wire/traps/sandbags in my defense so I can place troops behind my wire and traps and have everything covered. Plus, it looks cool.
w = wire T = traps S = Sandbags

wwwwwww
TTTTTTTT
SSSSSSSS

[Dread Moose]

Sandbags are definately a problem, Ever notice all those points on the map that arent fuel or munitions, the blank ones. The ones you can cap really fast and get to the fuel points extra quick. Those are the ones getting Sandbagged, it gets rid of the entire idea of cutting off supplies, and it removes the tactic of, if you dont want them to take the point, then build an OP on it. Something needs to be done, its not huge, its just something that should have been found in play testing.

[nichtganz]

I usually go Tanktraps, WireTrap, Sandbags.

[Fonic]

Admittedly Sandbags take far too long to build to be an effective substitute for Wire, although there are a couple of ways round it. If Sandbags worked like territory, in the sense that they could be captured automatically by Infantry near them or using them, they could then be deleted by the player that does so. For example, Riflemen are hiding behind sandbags and a Grenadier squad manage to kill them at range (Miraculously, I should add). The grenadiers then move to the sandbags and they switch ownership to the Axis player, who then double-taps delete over them and destroys them.
Alternative methods are giving a function to Pio/Engineers that dismantles enemy sandbags. It should be fairly quick though.

[Sn1tch]

Always build Tank Traps first before Wire. Because vehicles can knock down the Barb wire and then infantry and get past.

[Sothalor]

Not if you need the wire in a hurry.

[Virtual]

i wire in a hurry, and then later i set up sandbags if i got the time

usually its 2 good players vs eachother, no time to set up sandbags if your offensive enough

[Dread Moose]

its very easy to sandbag critical points of the map that are normally used to block resources. hence my post above, i can fight offensively and just sandbag those points so if they try to raid me they cant. It really is bogus when it does happen, that is what observation points are for.

[Noble]

its very easy to sandbag critical points of the map that are normally used to block resources. hence my post above, i can fight offensively and just sandbag those points so if they try to raid me they cant. It really is bogus when it does happen, that is what observation points are for.

So your opponent has wasted his precious time on something that can be knocked down tier 2.

[Dread Moose]

and it cost nothing at all, instead of having to build an OP point if you dont want it taken.

the entire idea of supply lines is fubared by this. How can you cut off supplies if he sandbags it.

It costs me nothing notta zip zilt, my builder would be sitting around in my base waiting for something to build any other time. I find it hard to see that you dont recognize this nobl3

[Noble]

and it cost nothing at all

It costs time, and quite alot of it.

[Kinmaul]

It costs time, and quite alot of it.
Time doesn't cost you resources though and if you can hold onto a point for an extra minute because you sandbagged it then I'd say it's worth it. Remember you are not only gaining the resources for yourself, but you are also denying them from your enemy.

[Fonic]

Yes but whilst your Engineers are busy sandbagging points off, they could be off capturing more points; which would lead to even more Resource income and even less for the enemy. Early game when units are scarce, unproductive units can be very costly.

[Demon_Eyes]

Spending time building sandbags can cost you resources when it takes longer to build them than to capture another point. I have yet to see sandbags deployed faster than I could kill the builder though.

[Noble]

Time doesn't cost you resources though

Time is a resource to be managed like any other. Remember, that while that engi/pio squad is busy sandbagging, your squads are busy capping points. With that extra momentum, you should be able to easily reach tier 2 and roll over those sandbags.

I will cede the point that it is an annoying design oversight, but it isnt as hard to deal with as some people seem to think.

[Dread Moose]

there are several maps that you can cut off resources, but are blocked by building sandbags.

I cap all my points, and then i just send them back to sandbag while my real units do the fighting and capping.

This rather than barbwire, has cost me a game, as he sandbagged his points and i couldnt cut off his resources, that early game cost me the game. It was hardfaught, but the fact that i couldnt break his fuel hold for +26. It wasnt because i was outplayed, it was because he put them on the points that are meant to break resources. Havent you ever done that, how is a jeep suppose to raide with sandbags, or you send out your extra engineers to take a point from him only to find sandbags.

[0mar]

It's only a problem in really big maps. On the 1v1 maps, you can easily bring a unit to headshot the fuckers as they lay sandbags.

[Texture]

Bollocks. Why do some many people make excuses for play that is clearly unfair? Does the fact that you might be able to counter it make it right?

In angoville, as an excellent example, you will constantly switch between the left and the right of the road, harassing the enemies strat points to cut him off from his fuel. Potentially the right is currently a nest of evil mg's so you are busy on the left doing your work. By the time you harass him on the left, sneak around the back or clear the mguns and switch to the left, you find that op point sandbagged in. Crap.

Your options have just been seriously limited by a player exploiting a design flaw. Or even worse, a player exploiting two bugs/design flaws, by spamming incomplete sandbags to save time.

It's only a problem, period. I hope the majority of players here have enough class to abstain from doing so.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Noone is saying that it's not a flaw, only that as an exploit, it's largely impractical.

[Demon_Eyes]

The other question comes in how to change this in a practical way that doesn't adversly affect the role of sandbags aside from the blocking of points.

[Virtual]

Bollocks. Why do some many people make excuses for play that is clearly unfair? Does the fact that you might be able to counter it make it right?



yes



In angoville, as an excellent example, you will constantly switch between the left and the right of the road, harassing the enemies strat points to cut him off from his fuel. Potentially the right is currently a nest of evil mg's so you are busy on the left doing your work. By the time you harass him on the left, sneak around the back or clear the mguns and switch to the left, you find that op point sandbagged in. Crap.


then you take another point, and laugh as he has wasated a long time with his engineers, not doing anything practical

[Dread Moose]

IM SORRY, it is not impractical, i see it very commonly now, atleast every other game i would say. Yes it is more common in team games than 1vs1, but it is an issue i am tired of seeing. The fact that you can lock that point down makes a huge difference, as when i play, i play to deny the other guy resources. I like to set up ambushes behind his lines, Ill sneak to a critical point, set up some crossfire, and then put my builder to take the point and then i wait, well, now the critical points are getting sandbagged, faster than you can rush out a force big enough to control it. I guess you wouldnt notice it as much if only play 1vs1s.

[Noble]

IM SORRY, it is not impractical, i see it very commonly now, atleast every other game i would say. Yes it is more common in team games than 1vs1, but it is an issue i am tired of seeing. The fact that you can lock that point down makes a huge difference, as when i play, i play to deny the other guy resources. I like to set up ambushes behind his lines, Ill sneak to a critical point, set up some crossfire, and then put my builder to take the point and then i wait, well, now the critical points are getting sandbagged, faster than you can rush out a force big enough to control it. I guess you wouldnt notice it as much if only play 1vs1s.

I play 2v2 almost exclusively, and I have yet to see anyone do this, then again, i'm out fighting for the map in the first 1-2 minutes.

[Dread Moose]

no shit sherlock, everyone one is, you cannot argue the fucking point that sandbags are free, OP points are 200 manpower, 400 manpower early game makes a huge difference, so if you are capping your points to prevent this, vs sandbags, you lose.

[Noble]

no shit sherlock, everyone one is, you cannot argue the fucking point that sandbags are free, OP points are 200 manpower, 400 manpower early game makes a huge difference, so if you are capping your points to prevent this, vs sandbags, you lose.

First of all calm down. Second of all, no one is saying that the sandbags arent free, they most certainly are. All we are saying is that it takes so long to put them up that it really isnt all that effective of a deterrent early game. They'll gaurd one, maybe two points with the things, mean while your early game units are busy capping up the rest of the map. If the points being sandbagged are critical to victory you really should be there right away, and considering how long it takes to put up sand bags, you should easily be able to kill the engies while they're working. Otherwise you should make do with getting vehicles and knocking the bags down.

[Virtual]

time = money

sandbags cost time

IE

Sandbags is not free

[Dread Moose]

i must be taking crazy pills, because sandbags dont take long to build in my book. No they dont string like barbwire. Once you get it up, it is invulnerable to all but light and heavy vehicles. Having to use a satchel, or a grenades, or flamers to counter this is bogus, as it is not the way sandbags were intended, if they want to secure that point, they should be required to put a unit there, or an OP, or a bunker.

in 1vs1, i on anglo, i can get a mg42 into the building that cuts off the right side of the map from allies, in that time i can sandbag both the quick capture points, and deny them to you and make it impossible for you to retake those barring insane bogus need of tactics. Its not like i can cut sandbags with wire cutters.

[Virtual]

i challenge you to win against me with your crazy axis sandbag tactics, bring it on.

say if you wan tto play and i will log on

[TheDeadlyShoe]

in 1vs1, i on anglo, i can get a mg42 into the building that cuts off the right side of the map from allies, in that time i can sandbag both the quick capture points, and deny them to you and make it impossible for you to retake those barring insane bogus need of tactics. Its not like i can cut sandbags with wire cutters.



MGs in the buildings cannot prevent riflemen from killing pioneers at the points.

[Virtual]

I see you are online with your little green tag dread... bring it!

[Dread Moose]

its not my crazy tactics, i dont resort to using exploits.

[Texture]

Maybe people are having a hard time understanding why this is a "bad thing" because they are envisioning scenarios where the exploiter using this to his advantage is dumb as dirt.

If the point they sandbagged was a CUTOFF POINT then you can cap all the points on the map you want. It isn't going to help you do jack. So if I can capture the left cutoff point south of the allied base on Ango, hold with troops for the 20 seconds it would take to spam unbuilt sandbags, I now have that point held FIRM. I can now move ALL of my units to the right side and concentrate on holding THAT cutoff point.

Waste of time? Wow, no. I've just solidified my hold on an extremely important point for zero cost. I'm not just holding it now, I've freed up units to hold other things.

Alternately, I could use idle engineers, which you WILL have at certain points, to bag in my own cutoff points. No more worries on having my connection to my OP'd high fuel taken, they aren't getting thru w/o special effort. If the difference is between sending my engineer to cap a 5 mu point or create an extremely powerful hold over a key point, I'm going to take the extra minute to do the former, not the latter.

I think, Demon, that the solution is that sandbags simply act as navigable 'terrain' that confers a green cover level. I'm not sure how the engine handles it, but as far as things like brush, craters, rocks, etc on the map work it seems that as long as you are in the correct 'area' they provide you with cover of a certain level. So they act as hot-spots. My vote would be to make sandbags act as hotspots for cover as well, they just happen to be ones you can create yourself. They would not impede the progress of troops or vehicles larger than a jeep/BMW.

Of course, I have no understanding of how the game engine is actually written, or how it could account for this sort of thing.

I wonder sometimes if it wouldn't be possible for someone like Buggo to come in and say "we don't know exactly HOW or IF we can fix this issue, but we know, and we'd like to find a solution as well". I'd find it reasurring and relaxing to hear that. Of course, Relic doesn't exist to make me feel better.

They exist so I can pwn n00bs in 1v1's and flame numbskulls on forums. Everyone needs hobbies.

[Victrix Legio]

The change you suggested, Texture, takes all of about 30 seconds to implement (I've done it myself in a mod I'm creating). I'd much prefer a true 'hopping-over' animation or something of that nature as men phasing through layers of sandbags and wood backdrops looks a tad foolish in my opinion, but it works.

[Demon_Eyes]

Victrix, did you test pathing and AI with this? I already notice shorter bag lines (about 10 segements) the unit AI tends to run them inexplicably past the sandbags when they get in to combat after ordering the unit in to the heavy cover.

[Victrix Legio]

Sorry, no, it was more just an experiment to see whether or not it could be done (testing just consisted of running engineers and jeeps through a medium-length sandbag wall and making sure it still acted as heavy cover), not a fully realized gameplay change on my part. I might go further with it, but I'm still not entirely warm to the idea and would like to see the problem solved in another way.

[adisca]

1.4 is out and they fixed the bug where light vehicles could not drive over sandbags. Unfortunately, using sandbags to block off areas is still an extremely effective tactic. If the player builds tank traps, vehicles cannot drive over them, and they take forever to destroy with flamethrowers.

Sandbags should not serve this purpose. I understand this might've not been a focus for Relic in 1.4, but I hope they are implementing something that will keep sandbags being used the way they were intended instead of as an exploit.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Building a Sandbag AND tank trap box around a point? Oh, comeon.