[1.3] Negated Balance Issues

[nichtganz]

These issues i find to be major faults with the game and need to be fixed in the next patch. They have been issues since released and never have been adressed.


1. Axis Panzerschrek: The Panzerschrek has been known often to miss and often clip right through tank armour and do very little damage.

Solution: Fix clipping problem, improve accuracy

2. Axis Panzerfaust: For AT weapon it never does any significant damage to vehicles and often clips right through armour. It costs more than stick grenades and isnt half as effective

Solution: Fix clipping problem, have Panzerfausts damage engines.

3. Axis Grenadier Squad: The Grenadier squads are tiny in comparison with allied squads. Combine that with the Shermans ability to rape infantry, and the Panzerschrek's inability to kill tanks.

Solution: Add two more members to the Grenadier Squad, Fix Panzerschrek.

4. Axis Nebelwerfer/ Walking Stuka: Now if you used them properly they could be effective however they are far too weak to be used, for Artillary they are really bad when in real life were devestatingly effective.

Soultion: Increase Firepower and V.s Tank damage of the rockets, Increase/add popcap of the Nebelwerfer + Halftrack upgrade.

5. Knight's Cross Holders : The problem with the knights crossholders is that they have no real abilities and a Ostwind is a better investment. The unit as it stands now is a fluff unit.

Solution: Give Crossholders some of the officer abilities.

6. Axis Stormtroopers : The stormroopers in this game prove to be useless in tank massing games however against infantry are pretty good but as we noticed arnt as good as rangers. Historically Stormstroopers would be sneaked behind enemy lines and would destroy enemy bridges and buildings with explosives, it would be fitting and give the stormtroopers this as their bundled grenades are not all that great.

Solution: Give stormtroopers demolition charges (The ability itself would make up for the 400 cost)

7. Axis Goliath: As we all know the Goliath is just too costly and Fragile to be used in game just like the Knights Crossholders is just a Fluff unit.

Solution: Decrease Munitions cost to 75

8. Axis Firestorm : Probably one of the worst powers ever, its only effectiveness is to hold off infantry for a short period of time and at 200 munitions is just not worth it.

Solution: Either Reduce cost, or Increase damage v.s buildings and vehicles.

9. Allied Howitzer : This has been one of the most angering things in this game, how an allied player can simply build one of these and destroy your base from afar. This means that fuel expensive buildings would be destroyed. That is is historically inaccurate that the Allies have the games only good Artillary.

Solution: Weaken Damage Dramatically v.s Buildings

10. Allied Sticky Grenades : Every Axis player can agree that they never miss, ever. And to know that they cost less than your Panzerfausts (35 v.s 50) is annoying.

Solution: Decrease sticky grenade accuracy

11. Allied Crocodile Sherman : Way to expensive to be used. A Track with AA upgrade is a much better investment.

Solution: Decrease Cost

[FatalTheRabbit]

You mean 'neglected'. Negated means nullified.

[Tuco]

I think he means we WISH these issues were "negated"

[Timeless]

I disagree with lowering cost of Croc. Once Sherman has been nerfed against infantry, then the Croc will have its place. Right now, the Croc can clear a field of AT guns and infantry, no joke. I'd hate to see these even close to spammable as then that would in turn force more Armor massing from Axis, something I'd like to slightly get away from.

[Phier]

I think this list is pretty dead on.

Really there is nothing wrong with the crock, its just that the allies have much cheaper ways to do the same thing.

One issue missed was how axis gain veterancy and the somewhat laughable bonuses they get. Apparently the Axis are just stupid and can't learn by fighting (silly). I'd allow them upgrades like the allies, plus as a team difference allow them to buy veteran units (much like the campaign game) for extra cost from the eastern front.

Another issue is the american AT gun. This thing will three shot my stugs and I don't have anything to counter beyond infantry rushes (if the guy is stupid and doesn't back it up) or snipers. Snipers are ok except they are easy to counter and also leave the gun intact, meaning for a cheap engineer squad they can re-man the gun. I don't mind the AT gun but give the germans a pak 40 instead of the awful 38. Also give them better bonuses for vet status on it. The 38 vet bonuses are laughable, while the American AT gun is turned into a uber weapon.

Really this game seems very imbalanced in favor of the allies right now. Its a great game, but there is nothing close to balance.

[Timeless]

What's really fun is when you rush their AT guns with infantry only to be blown to bits by guarding Shermans or pinned to the ground by guarding BAR riflemen. Gotta love it! Well, at least there's firestorm. Still, it's often BS.

[FalseMyrmidon]

If you read the form rules that Novaburn posted http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=114616 . You would know this forum does not have any rules against "Master Lists". And if it supposedly is, you are not helping a thread by saying that i will get locked. If the Moderators dont like it they can lock it, there is no need to up your post cound by posting useless posts.

Edit: Now i hope we can all get back on topic.
http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?p=1972651#post1972651

[AntiCommie]

Has anyone noticed how effective 57mm are against infantry? I was playing yesterday and the allied player had 3 AT guns 1 upfront and 2 behind. I snuck up on the front one with some storms, tossed a bundlednade and had all 3 At guns 1 shot a trooper. I took out the AT gun I attacked, but then had to retreat. I had the same thing happen a few other times with flame pioneer and Volks. If you take a volks(no MP40) and let it have a shootout with a 57mm from long range, the 57 will usually kill 2-3 people before it dies. This is completely unsupported. The 57 needs its AI accuracy tuned down a little.

[Demonic Spoon]

1. Axis Panzerschrek: The Panzerschrek has been known often to miss and often clip right through tank armour and do very little damage.

Solution: Fix clipping problem, improve accuracy

Accuracy is fine.



2. Axis Panzerfaust: For AT weapon it never does any significant damage to vehicles and often clips right through armour. It costs more than stick grenades and isnt half as effective

Solution: Fix clipping problem, have Panzerfausts damage engines.

Agreed. A bit of a buff to damage vs tanks only (damage is fine vs light armor) would be warrented.


3. Axis Grenadier Squad: The Grenadier squads are tiny in comparison with allied squads. Combine that with the Shermans ability to rape infantry, and the Panzerschrek's inability to kill tanks.

Solution: Add two more members to the Grenadier Squad, Fix Panzerschrek.

Shrek is not ment to go one on one with tanks. That said, I would like to see Sherman AoE damage with the gun upgrade decreased.



4. Axis Nebelwerfer/ Walking Stuka: Now if you used them properly they could be effective however they are far too weak to be used, for Artillary they are really bad when in real life were devestatingly effective.

Soultion: Increase Firepower and V.s Tank damage of the rockets, Increase/add popcap of the Nebelwerfer + Halftrack upgrade.

Stuka is fine. There is not a single time I bought the walking stuka and it did not pay for itself many times over.

The Nebl seems to hit along the sides of the ring only...Don't increase its accuracy (decrease it, infact...) but increase the AoE by quite a bit (those are 150mm shots), and add a pinning effect.



5. Knight's Cross Holders : The problem with the knights crossholders is that they have no real abilities and a Ostwind is a better investment. The unit as it stands now is a fluff unit.

Solution: Give Crossholders some of the officer abilities.



No. The only problem with KCH is the BAR instapin, really...And you can't compare Ostwinds to infantry. They are completely different, although their general purpose is similar.



6. Axis Stormtroopers : The stormroopers in this game prove to be useless in tank massing games however against infantry are pretty good but as we noticed arnt as good as rangers. Historically Stormstroopers would be sneaked behind enemy lines and would destroy enemy bridges and buildings with explosives, it would be fitting and give the stormtroopers this as their bundled grenades are not all that great.

Solution: Give stormtroopers demolition charges (The ability itself would make up for the 400 cost)

I think Stormtroopers are good as-is...although that is a damn good idea and I can't see it hurting balance really.



7. Axis Goliath: As we all know the Goliath is just too costly and Fragile to be used in game just like the Knights Crossholders is just a Fluff unit.

Solution: Decrease Munitions cost to 75



I actually agree with this one, except 75 may be a bit too cheap.



8. Axis Firestorm : Probably one of the worst powers ever, its only effectiveness is to hold off infantry for a short period of time and at 200 munitions is just not worth it.

Solution: Either Reduce cost, or Increase damage v.s
buildings and vehicles.

What? An ability that comes down fast, has a huge area of effect, and massacres infantry is useless? Please...



9. Allied Howitzer : This has been one of the most angering things in this game, how an allied player can simply build one of these and destroy your base from afar. This means that fuel expensive buildings would be destroyed. That is is historically inaccurate that the Allies have the games only good Artillary.

Solution: Weaken Damage Dramatically v.s Buildings

ONLY good artillery? Walking Stuka is amazing.

Either way, I'd propose simply disallowing it to fire into fog of war. That way it does not nullify 88s, and does not obliterate bases, but is used for fire support...as it is supposed to be.



10. Allied Sticky Grenades : Every Axis player can agree that they never miss, ever. And to know that they cost less than your Panzerfausts (35 v.s 50) is annoying.

Solution: Decrease sticky grenade accuracy


they're fine. They have to get close, and cost 35 munitions...which is expensive since you need to use lots of them to kill a vehicle.


11. Allied Crocodile Sherman : Way to expensive to be used. A Track with AA upgrade is a much better investment.

Solution: Decrease Cost

Change upgunned Sherman's AoE damage and Croc will be fine...maybe decrease price to 100

[AntiCommie]

If the 105 onmap wasnt able to fire into fog, it would be close to useless. I dont mind that it nullifies 88s, but it should do less building damage. This would allow bunkers to take a few extra shots, and also prevent base raping from across the map. 88s should be a little stronger overall though. They do fine in damage, but have crap HP or armor.

Firestorm needs to do more building damage, especially against MG nests. Other then that its fine.

KCH are fine too. I'd like to see you use that ostwind to clear a layered 57 defense. About the only thing I'd give them is a fireup type of ability that allowed them to dash or sprint out of BAR instapin.

Storms should cost less popcap, but other then that they are great all around infantry. They can hold their own against anything and 3 of them with shreks will demolish a base in seconds.

[RayLiota]

If the 105 onmap wasnt able to fire into fog, it would be close to useless. I dont mind that it nullifies 88s, but it should do less building damage. This would allow bunkers to take a few extra shots, and also prevent base raping from across the map. 88s should be a little stronger overall though. They do fine in damage, but have crap HP or armor.

Firestorm needs to do more building damage, especially against MG nests. Other then that its fine.

KCH are fine too. I'd like to see you use that ostwind to clear a layered 57 defense. About the only thing I'd give them is a fireup type of ability that allowed them to dash or sprint out of BAR instapin.

Storms should cost less popcap, but other then that they are great all around infantry. They can hold their own against anything and 3 of them with shreks will demolish a base in seconds.
Come on now. USELESS? Just the like all the other off-map arty that requires line of site is useless?

S.

[Mutters]

Ok this is just a direct copy of a thread that was closed about 2 days ago.

2nd, imagine a game that implemented all these changes together = complete imba and you all know it.

Try playing the allies against some decent axis players and you will come to understand how utterly crap the game would become is all these changes were to be made.

[Camphlobactor]

All the units in the game have been discussed and debated. List fails.

[Sepha]

I can answer a few and post my opinions, I think the panzershrek missing is a graphical bug and nothing more, their accuracy is around the same as a bazooka. Panzerfausts are a rocket and have explosive impact, meaning if riflemen squads are bunched up the rocket will kill about 5-6 of them turning the tide of a battle, it's a rocket so while riflemen have to run up and grenade a hmg, volks can just panzerfaust a hmg and (sometimes) hit all 3 in one shot, this happens to mortar squads 100% of the tmie actually. Panzerfaust is a rocket so it can fire on vehicles at long range while riflemen need to get near to put stickies on.

If you're using panzerfausts 1 or 2 at a time, expect to waste munitions, if you use them from 3+ volks at once on on AC or to turn the tide of a tank war, you just learn how to use a panzerfaust properly in all it's glory. Simply put they don't need a change at all, they're fine.

Grens reduce manpower generation much less since there's less soldiers, they also have the lmg42 upgrade that does some insane damage to riflemen and they can lay sandbags anywhere for heavy cover all the time. Grenadiers depend on the player to be a good unit and rightly so otherwise axis infantry would be imba.

Nebwl/walking stucka for their cost I agree suck and need a buff. KCH = useless unit. Stormtroopers need more firepower because of their higher cost than grens and no lmg42 upgrade. Goliath is fine, it's a last ditch effort againt AC's, not a spammable AT unit. Firestorm is perfectly fine, it is for killing/routing infantry/AT guns and does a fine job of it. Howitzer is fine.

Sticky's don't have accuracy because riflemen need to be within about 10 yards to use them, it's dependant on the axis player how good stickies are, not allies.

As for the croc I think it's fine, fuel isn't really needed vs t2 units so if you're floating fuel which you will be, and have a tank depot this unit is fine.

[Bentguru]

I think the panzershrek missing is a graphical bug and nothing more, their accuracy is around the same as a bazooka.

Yeah cause spending 150 munitions for something with the accuracy of a bazooka (free btw) is perfectly fine

[Phier]

I think the big issue is that sticky bombs >>> fausts for anti-armor.

I'm also not sure why stickies always stick to the engine.

When I'm playing allies vrs armor at least I know I can hurt the thing before I wipe out or hit the magical warp speed retreat button. With the axis I MIGHT take a fraction off its armor.

[haido]

I'd say give stg44's to stormtroopers.

I'd say up AoE on nebel

I'd say 5 man squad grenadier.

[Quercus]

I think removing the 105 mm's ability to fire into the fog of war is a good idea as long as the time it takes to fire is reduced by at least 50%.
While the specific list may have some questionable balance issues, it is yet again a demonstration that a large number of players see it as imbalanced in favour of the allies. Hopefully the thread from Buggo asking for critical issues that need addressing in the next patch will also do something about this.
The ideas we could come up with are endless, such as:
> Increase Axis unit size across the board or stop armour and AT shots from instantly killing them.
> Stop Allied Arty from being able to fire into the fog of war.
> Allow Axis units to gain veterancy naturally but at a much reduced rate to Allies. Instead allow the Kampfkraft centre to upgrade them twice but force them to earn the final veterancy.

[Rapyer]

this is liek the billionth "buff axis" "nerf allied" thread

[Texture]

I think I can agree with most everything Demonic Eyes said here, except:

Accuracy of the shrek is fine. No, it goes thru tanks. So I guess technically you are correct, the accuracy is fine. The hit collision however, is lacking. I would agree that the shrek doesn't need to go thru the tank model more often, I would just prefer that it explodes when it does.

You are spot on about firestorm, nerfing AoE sherman anti infantry damage, walking stuka's, etc. I think conclusions like these are things the frequent thread posters have been reaching over the last few weeks, and I hope they are the most reviewed/considered by the balance team.

nigchtganz is blatantly repeating some of the issues that have already been argued in their own threads, but I don't mind as it's nice for us to be able to re-comment after we've had more time to think about previous arguements and more game experience.

As to 105's not being able to fire into the fog.... I love me some 105's. I partially love them because it's cheap as hell to be able to smush an enemy base w/o ever seeing it. As I've said before, one sacrificial bike into his base, and you know where all the buildings are. Those are targets which don't move, 3 volleys later they are dead. I actually played a game for a solid hour on Viire when I was a n00b, and I used a sniper to spot for the 105, or had my partner do a scout run. I honestly didn't know that you could fire blindly. My basic assumption was that it would be completely unfair so it couldn't be possible could it? .... oh wait SWEET.

There needs to be some balance to them. I like what Demonic says, that they shouldn't be able to fire blindly. 88's become more viable, there is a point to building bunkers if the opponent has 105's, etc. All right then, they still remain super powerful.. but now the only imblance is that walking stuka's and nerbel's CAN fire blindly and allies have nothing which can. I don't know what the proper line to draw is.

Any additional suggestions along this line? We should probably just have another thread for it.

[Demonic Spoon]

Except Walking Stukas are not nearly as powerful, and have a far shorter range.

[Sepha]

Yeah cause spending 150 munitions for something with the accuracy of a bazooka (free btw) is perfectly fine

It allows axis economy to be spread through different resources, on the other hand allies spend 100% manpower for those bazookas. :agree: Not worser, just different.

Shreks do like double the damage of bazookas anyway I think. Oh and btw, panzerfausts are multi-purpose, if you compare them directly to a sticky or nade they seem underpowered but compare them to everything and they're fine if not better, you have to consider these things when making balance claims.

[Demon_Eyes]

That panzershrek has a little over 70% more damage value, assuming equal accuracy this means 70% more damage though I am pretty sure PS is still more accurate and I think it has some specific target modifiers that are better.

[Timeless]

After observing this for the past few days, I'd have to disagree. Pschrecks hit all the other tanks with the same accuracy or better than Zookas (which is good), but miss the Sherman quite a lot unless within an exact magical sweet spot zone. By the time they can really do anything to the Sherman (except in rare cases, because I have seen them work, once in a while), they are either pinned or blown to bits by the Sherman or both. Grens are very good vs m10s and light armor, though, super good - and fantastic vs buildings if left alone to fire on them. They fail vs Shermans. I actually wouldn't mind the miss rate vs Shermans if they didn't die so quickly to the Sherman's default cannon.

It's foolish to say Allies pay in terms of MP for the Zookas. Axis pay 400 for STs yet don't get the Schrecks for free just because they paid 400 MP and 8 pop cap points.

[Texture]

As well as paying for a Kriegs barracks for Grens which is a significant cost compared to an off map call in like rangers.

I don't think 100mp difference between Grens and Rangers should be equated here to the utility of free AT, an elite unit and the fire-up ability that is an off-map call in.

[Bonnet]

Sorry guys, please try to keep individual balance change suggestions to disparate threads. Also several of the issues here are already being discussed in other threads.


We may make an index thread with links to individual discussions in the days to come. This thread, however well intentioned and a good idea, wouldn't ever work because there's way too much to talk about. It'd get bogged down in everyone talking about something else and relic would never read it.