King Tiger

[KingzizeM]

I have seen many people want to see the King Tiger in the game ,
but what kind of counter unit do the allied side need to
counter a Monster like that to have the game balanced well .

[Sothalor]

Far as I can tell the Tiger 2 would just replace the current Tiger Ace from the Terror Tree as a way to differentiate it from the Blitz tree Tigers, without necessarily changing the game stats from what they are right now.

[P1r0s]

...but what kind of counter unit do the allied side need to counter a Monster like that to have the game balanced well

A huge AT :dance:

[LegionFlandern]

since it would only be a graphical change, and no stats what so ever for the terror tiger (2) would change - no other things need to change either

its all hypothetically though, i dont count on the Königstiger to make an appearance b4 the expansion pack.

[GeneralGonzo]

Maybe in an expansion with soviets, where they could have an IS-2 we may see a king tiger to be able to counter that "monster" with axis.

[-=whoopy=-]

soviets in expension, is great idea
cnat wait for some CoH kursk battle

[Alpha&Omega]

with how overpowered the allies are, nothing should be done.

[Unkn0wn]

Koningstiger wasn't THAT much better than a regular tiger and they weren't that comon anyway.

[delly]

IS2 ftw

[JagdAlex]

Koningstiger wasn't THAT much better than a regular tiger and they weren't that comon anyway.



Herr....:err: It was really a superior tank than the Tiger1. A way better gun and better armoured but anyway everything above a Panther was overkill on the western front. Those were made to counter the IS2 and to deal were the real tank battles were.....on the Eastern front.


but what kind of counter unit do the allied side need

They need a SuperPershing with an extra long 90 mm gun. Only 2 of those showed up during WW2. And one actually did K.O a Kingtiger from it's underbelly. The KT crew was obviously inexperienced and the SuperPershing was really lucky to kill it because the KT was well ambushed and missed his first hit which should have never happened with the superior optics of the 88 KwK43. The SPershing replied but the loader but an HE round instead on AP one and it clearly was deflected by the KT front armor. We can see that it is was an obvious green crew who was commanding the KT when the KT came out of his ambush spot exposing his underbelly...that was the fatal mistake and the crew from the SP did not miss that unbelievable opportunity, they were probably sure that they were already dead. Because the KT should have so much won this showdown. But it is life and war and mens behind those machine and a green crew is not like a veteran one and prone to do some terrble mistakes while under a lot of stress!

[Sturmhaubitze]

I'm not surprised that confrontation ended the way it did. The underbelly was a prime target on a tank.

There was no evidence found of any Koenigstiger having its frontal armour penetrated during the war. There were some destroyed in battle, but never by frontal shots. Modelling that in-game wouldn't be very fun for Allied players, since even Pershing 90mm shots would bounce non-stop off the front. The Koenigstiger's 88mm gun was noticably more effective than the 88mm on the Tiger I E and FlaK36, and could penetrate any tank armour of the war.

Though I'm fine with not seeing it in-game. Tiger I E versus M26 Pershing was a fairly close match-up. The Pershing had the benefit of being a newer design, and was somewhat superior in frontal armour and cannon, while the Tiger I E crews were almost always experienced aces with numerous kills to their record.

[JagdAlex]

I'm not surprised that confrontation ended the way it did. The underbelly was a prime target on a tank.



Without a green gunner the Ambushed KT will have K-O the SuperPershing with his first round shot and that would have been the end of it!

[BlackLabel]

A Pershing is a Pershing. No SuperPershing...zzz The Pershing that got knocked out in late WW2 was knoked by a "Nashorn" Panzerjäger Panzer.

[JagdAlex]

Two M26A1E2 tanks were built during the Second World War. One of these made it to the ETO, assigned to the 3rd Armored Division. This experimental version of the Pershing, sometimes referred to as "Super Pershing" (as are other upgunned Pershing variants), had the 90 mm/70 caliber T15E1 high-velocity gun that threw a projectile at 3,850 ft/s (1,173 m/s). On April 4 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_4), 1945 near Dessau (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dessau), the "Super Pershing" destroyed one King Tiger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Tiger) by striking its underbelly and knocked out another tank, probably a Panther, with a shot to its flank [2] (http://www.3ad.com/history/news/super.pershing.1.htm). However, that was its only known combat engagement. Thus, the full capabilities of the T15E1 90 mm main gun were never demonstrated.



From Wikipedia

It is not because you are ignorant that it does not exist! ;)

[KingzizeM]

I already had a discussion like this about the super pershing with some people here .

someone asked why they did not build more of those if the wer so super .
well the war was almost over and the Shermans already did the dirty job
so why invest in a super heavy tank .
Later they boosted the pershing up being the patton tank in Korea ,
just a pershing with better armor and a better gun and a new engine and not the sherman engine .

Allies used the sherman over pershing because of it's mobility , it does not use so much juice as a pershing but very vulnerable against axis armor and tank destroyer doctorine
was a heavy failure but the really needed a heavy tank .

in the game the pershing gun really is the best , better then the 88 but the tiger is far more better armored .
i noticed by the way that a veteran pershing really bounce of alot of shot in the game .

[BlackLabel]

Calling someone ignorant isent the best idea to start a discussion dont you think ? Just because WIKI said its called a "Super Pershing" dosent mean that people who are intrested in REAL names of vehicles are ignorant. :slap:

[KingzizeM]

@ Okay but do you have an article or something that has the real name of the vehicle that knocked out the king tiger then ? i am really intrested in that kind of stuff .

[Noir]

Herr.... It was really a superior tank than the Tiger1. A way better gun and better armoured but anyway everything above a Panther was overkill on the western front. Those were made to counter the IS2 and to deal were the real tank battles were.....on the Eastern front.

That's only because the Tiger I left quite a bit of room for improvement thanks to it's rather early introduction, as the design-wise superior IS-2 would attest to :p



Later they boosted the pershing up being the patton tank in Korea ,
just a pershing with better armor and a better gun and a new engine and not the sherman engine .

The M46 that saw service didn't have even much of that, a 740 hp engine, a new suspension, and a bore excavator for it's gun, whoop de doo :p .

Not that it didn't help against the Chinese and the North Koreans. Then again, the Sherman proved itself even handier than the Pershing in Korea against the T-34(since it was lighter and easier to maintain than the heavier vehicle), which really deflates the "T-34 uber alles" crowd :p

[BlackLabel]

Iam just no friend of WIKI but...never mind. I whould just call it a "upgunned M26A1E2" . Iam just not a big friend of calling everything upgunned a "Super" tank, thats all.
Call me picky then. :elephant: Sorry for the mess.:lol:

Anyway where where we. Ah the Kingtiger. I think the KT shall be a bit better armoured than the tiger but slower.
I only see the Kingtiger happen in MODs not in a expansion. It whould make more sense to have the Elephant/Ferdinant for a ´43 expansion for a russian ( or german ? ) campaign.

[JagdAlex]

Calling someone ignorant isent the best idea to start a discussion dont you think ?

It was because of the tone of your sentence. I just wanna put it in your face with an actual reference!:D I was not really serious see the little ;) at the end of the sentence.



I only see the Kingtiger happen in MODs not in a expansion. It whould make more sense to have the Elephant/Ferdinant for a ´43 expansion for a russian ( or german ? ) campaign.

Makes sense to me as well because the KT did not even exist back in 1943. Anyway they should do a 1944-45 Russian campaign with some IS-2, KT, ISU-152 that would be much cooler! Something that rock!

[BlackLabel]

Jep...see we sorted that out....:trix:

I whould LOVE to see a kind of a KURSK battle expansion. ( i participated in a mod for panzers with the kursk theme so i really like that scenario ) or some german campaign near the "Seelower Höhen" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4yBvt8YcvM)

A Defence campaign could be very intresting.

[JagdAlex]

Yup German Defense 1944-45 vs Russian all out attack on the Fatherland up the the Battle of Berlin. That is what they should do!:D With the Maus being available! :D! Yééé for the last defense of the Fatherland!

[Noir]

Operation Bagration(Belorussian offensive) to Battle of Berlin? :o

[JagdAlex]

That's sound like a deal to me! :D

[Noir]

Lots of retreating however for the Germans if we're going to do some kind of German campaign...though I suppose small skirmishes on the company level(which is basically CoH's focus) would work.

[kbrinks82]

i was surprised at how fast they can be taken out with just 2 ATs with armor piercing rounds.. and some paratroopers with recoilless rifles.. use the para's fired up ability to run around to it's backside

2 M10's can do a number on it with circling the tiger as well... the tiger is a huge damage machine but it sucks by itself due to it's slow movement and turret

[Unkn0wn]

I hate the Maus and I hope they never introduce it.

It was a prototype so it shouldn't be used by Relic in any expansion. Not to mention likely only 2 were made and only 1 saw battle which was defending its factory.
(And it got nailed)

It was a waste of time, effort and funds that the Germans could've spent on producing useful tanks to be honest.
(The idea behind it was good I guess but it was just too ridiculously big, too slow and well ugly).


Nor should they introduce a superpershing.
I think it'd be rather stupid to put units in game that in reality hardly ever saw combat during WW2 or were at least not common at all.
(The king tiger would be fine as a one unit only thing, under terror instead of tiger ace. But it should be toned down for balancing reasons none the less)

Not to mention the pershing should've been an M36 Jackson IMO, a far more common tank considering only a handful of pershings were deployed during WW2 and most of those deployments were showoff/not combat related and late war only.



Either a '41 - '43 Axis campaign (So it involves both the major victories as the first retreats and defeats) and a '42 - '44 Russian campaign or a '44 - '45 defensive axis campaign.

[Noir]

Not to mention the pershing should've been an M36 Jackson IMO, a far more common tank considering only a handful of pershings were deployed during WW2 and most of those deployments were showoff/not combat related and late war only.



The Jackson wasn't much of a tank, it'd be more like an upgunned M-10 ingame, which it was :p

[JagdAlex]

It was a waste of time, effort and funds that the Germans could've spent on producing useful tanks to be honest.

Everybody who knows a little about Germanny WW2 armor knows that. They should have spamed Panthers and JagdPanthers and that will have been a different story. Not going with JagdTigers, Maus and E100 project and all kind of different frame for each sort of tanks.

But for the flavor part it rocks ;) Russia was the model to be followed based on the famous T-34 frame they did a lot of tanks and a lot of good ones and good assault guns as well. Heck an ISU-152 was ripping the turret of a Tiger appart with one shell. I guess it is why it was named the "Kitty Tammer" after all ;)

They probably did not put the Jackson in the game because the M-10 was already there. And you would have had 2 Tank destroyers.

Edit: There you go mon ami Noir! exactly what I was saying :D

[BlackLabel]

NO MAUS. Everygame in the last 6 months that had a maus in sucked bigtime. Anyhow i dont think the folks at relic whould do that. *hopefully* :wtf: A Jakson whould be nice. :D

*edit due to faster poster*

the crucial point was air dominance from the allies. You can have the best tanks in the world without an enemy free sky.

anyhow....KT yes...:ebil:

[JagdAlex]

I know that the MAus sucked real bad but it is just for the flavor part of it that's all! It was barely able to achieve 12 km/h it was a bunker on tracks no more!

[BlackLabel]

Yep. And all those crazy other plans for "land-battleships"...:trix:

[JagdAlex]

The P-1500 "Monster" (name coming from Albert Speer) was the most ridiculous of all! Kind of a Sci-Fi transformer piece or artillery. It was actually approved for building by Hitler! HEHEHE. He was so out of his mind!


P 1000 / P 1500
Another prototype project was the P 1000 / P 1500 armour series. On June 23rd of 1942, Dir. Dip. Ing. Grote (along with Dr.Hacker) from the Ministry of Armament, who was responsible for the production of U-Boats, suggested the development of a tank with a weight of 1000 tons. Adolf Hitler himself expressed interest in this project and allowed Krupp to go ahead with it. The project was designated “Krupp P 1000” (Ratte - Rat).This "land cruiser" would be 35 meters long, 14 meters wide and 11 meters high. The P 1000 would be equipped with tracks 3.6 meters wide, each side using three 1.2 meters wide tracks, similar to those used in excavators working in coalmines.

It was planned to power the P 1000 with two MAN V12Z32/44 24 cylinder Diesel marine engines with total power of 17000hp (2 x 8500hp) or with eight Daimler-Benz MB501 20 cylinder Diesel marine engines with total power of 16000hp (8 x 2000hp). According to the calculations it would allow the P 1000 to travel at a maximum speed of 40km/h. The P 1000 would be armed with a variety of weapons such as: two 280mm gun (naval gun used in Scharnhorst and Gneisenau warships), single 128mm gun, eight 20mm Flak 38 anti-aircraft guns and two 15mm Mauser MG 151/15 gun.

In December of 1942, Krupp created new design for a 1500 ton tank - P 1500. Its frontal armour would be 250mm thick and it would be armed with a single 800mm "Dora" type super heavy mortar and possibly two 150mm artillery pieces. The P 1500 would be powered by two or four submarine diesel engines.

In early 1943, Albert Speer cancelled both projects. The only P 1000 turret made ended up as a coastal defence battery (Batterie Oerlander) near Trondheim, Norway.



source: Wikipedia

[Sturmhaubitze]

Maus? Ugh. It made no sense to make such an unwieldly engine of destruction. A commander can do so much more with half a dozen medium tanks than with one uber-heavy-monstrosity like the Maus.

I'd like to have a Hornisse/Nashorn. Hummel self-propelled artillery chassis mounting a Pak43 antitank cannon. Very little armour, just enough to protect the crew in the open-topped compartment from small arms fire, so it would be as durable as an armoured car. However the cannon would outperform the FlaK36's 88mm cannon in penetration and damage, and have the same range (ie. excessive). There were quite a few tank destroyers (and the King Tiger had a tank variant) that mounted this gun, but the Hornisse/Nashorn was the cheapest to produce since the others were heavily armoured or built on a more expensive chassis.

I'd happily build one or two to support a trio of StuG IV's, keeping them safely behind and out of reach, so that they can trash any enemy armour while the StuG's deal with softer threats. :)

[TheDeadlyShoe]

we could always have a super sherman, iirc it had more armor than a tiger and they were designed for a breakout attempt should the normandy campaign stall. So they're in COH's time period.

[Aleena]

You must have it confused with another tank. The Super Sherman was developed by the IDF in the 1950's(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M50_Super_Sherman).

[Noir]

He means the Sherman Jumbo, which did exist in limited quantities.

[Nainara]

The P-1500 "Monster" (name coming from Albert Speer) was the most ridiculous of all! Kind of a Sci-Fi transformer piece or artillery. It was actually approved for building by Hitler! HEHEHE. He was so out of his mind
I always thought it would be fun if someone loaded up this sucker (http://www.sandia.gov/news/resources/releases/2005/images/tom-carne-1.jpg) with armor plating and a few guns. It's wasted on space shuttles imho. ;)

[JagdAlex]

I always thought it would be fun if someone loaded up this sucker (http://www.sandia.gov/news/resources/releases/2005/images/tom-carne-1.jpg) with armor plating and a few guns. It's wasted on space shuttles imho

HEHEH it's the Jawa sandcrawler! :D

[Falaris]

For my part I would like to see a jagdpanther or another of the StuG's 'big brothers' as a Tier 4 axis unit. The Tiger / Tiger Ace is enough of a super tank, I want more useable tanks. Turning the tiger Ace into a koeningstiger isn't a bad deal though, the tiger ace currently has the drawback of discouraging tank veterancy research.

The StuG is both fairly powerful for its tier, while at the same time it has a rather glaring weakness or two, making it one of my favourite units.

[Skyhawk]

imho the Sherman Jumbo should have been used instead of the Pershing in the game. I think discussion of the Maus is ridiculous as this is just 'what if' weapon in the pure realm of fantasy. There were two prototypes and it was far from ready, besides which it just would have provided a nice expensive target for Allied aircraft if somehow it could be produced. Which again was pure fantasy at that time of the war.