Petiition To Relic to facilitate custom maps.

[[DS] Virus]

Currently, the custom map system means you must go out of the game and faff around online to get a map to work etc etc.

If enough people ask, Relic will at least have to listen to the community and hopefully add a patch that allows custom made maps to be downloaded and played within the game structure.

I used to play Blitzkrieg and that game downloaded maps as and when they were needed and therefore maps were never a problem.

The outcome to this was that many players created their own maps and this seriously improved the gameplay for serious players and well as increasing the longevity of the game.

I strongly believe we should ask Relic to look into this as it would seriously improve the game and allow the community to create, play and admire the game we all love. Furthermore, easing the use of custom maps within the game would add longevity to the game because there would be far more maps to choose from and learn; and these would provide more of a strategic challenge to all players, irrespective of their ability.

If you want Relic to facilitate this for the community, please add you name here!

dsvirus Out!

[Busby]

I pretty certain Buggo said that they are looking into it and might include player made maps in future patches.

[Hatge]

I want that feature too :-)

[Volomon]

They need to be smart and just allow the host to upload the maps through P2P and just label the ones they make as official or the ones they like as official and release them with patches.

I would say 90% of the reason why Relic games don't catch on is because people get tired of playing the same maps over and over.

I've never figured out why Relic hasn't had a more proactive lean toward the modding community and the longevity of their games through community support. I know they have some methods of this but the most simpliest one never seems to have been implemented.

[ÜberJumper]

The map files are huge.

Thus, no transfer over Relic Online player to player.

What would be handy is if they had someone approving custom maps that were properly packaged by designers then putting them on a dedicated website somewhere.

That way, you could (heck even from in game) download the map and then be able to join games where people are hosting the map.

[Unkn0wn]

Theres some amazing maps out there that look just like Relic's.

I really think they should be made official.
It's the only way to keep the community alive in the long run really, unless you want to waste funds on paying mappers to keep making new maps.

[fldash]

The map files are huge. What do you consider huge? What I've seen is that they're less than 20MB.

[[DS] Virus]

It doesnt really matter how large the files are as people will only download them if they want them; the point of this thread is that it would be nice if relic facilitated this for us so that it was easy as pie to load maps.....

[TheDeadlyShoe]

What do you consider huge? What I've seen is that they're less than 20MB.

Which is huge. Games with a server->client map transfer usually have much, much smaller maps.

[Dark_Avenger]

an idea is that they could put a feature into relic online, that is a separate tab that says something like custom maps. poeple would submit maps they have made to relic, and they could then put them on here

then players would just have to go to that tab and download the maps they want and start playing it, this would be better then P2P as it does take a while for these huge maps to download, this just lets players get the maps on their own time

[Volomon]

If relics going to allow something like that I hope relic overviews the maps because I would feel like they were endorsed by relic if relic hosts the files.

[MOFO78]

Custom maps very popular with Starcraft, and people downloaded them while hosting a game waiting for players to join, and the players would download the host map as the joined the queue, and after everyone finished downloading the map, the host could start the game. Its very easy.

If file size is an issue, then make some contest, and select a few new maps per month that people can download off a website before joining the games, so everyone has same version map etc and doesn't have to wait on download to start game.

Its very easy to do, and the people demand it.

[Virigoth]

Maps should be transfered P2P from within the game lobby. 20MB is not much to transfer on broadband.

These days 200-400MB patches are common :eek:

[Riithi]

Yeah I don't think 20mb's is alot as well.
It's also a one time download. When you have the map.. you have it.

Or maybe a side application that downloads these maps and sets them in the right folder. So when you see a game with a custom map you can just press a download button, it starts downloading and you can join as soon as you have the map.
Games don't fill up that fast anyway. If you transform this in some sort of service thingy from Relic they can also keep a check on the maps. So you don't get another version of the same map everyday.

Anyway.. custom maps ftw :elephant:

[Moe]

Yeah I don't think 20mb's is alot as well.

That's what you say now. What if you're sitting in the game lobby waiting for the game to start, and three people with 56k modems have to download 20mb?

[Riithi]

Maybe some sort of loading screen in the lobby.
When it doesn't move, I could go to another game.

Downloading ANY custom map is short to impossible for 56k with 20mb maps.
I remember the days when I had 56k and wanted to download a 30mb demo of a game.. it took a whole morning.

So facilitate this for people who have some sort of bandwith, and with a progress bar in the lobby people could make their own choice about waiting or finding another game.

Surely it's a valid point but with some UI clues about what is going on download wise alot of trouble could be solved

[Crushyerbones]

The map files are huge.

Thus, no transfer over Relic Online player to player.

What would be handy is if they had someone approving custom maps that were properly packaged by designers then putting them on a dedicated website somewhere.

That way, you could (heck even from in game) download the map and then be able to join games where people are hosting the map.

Dude, p2p... The maps would be transferred BETWEEN players, not Player>server>Player

And Moe, that's easy to solve... Games won't start without each player having the map. Infact, you wouldn't even be able to join without the map (pre-game room downloading) or you could go the Warcraft 3 way and have players download it in the game setup room where a percentage shows the amount of the map remaining. People who take too long either get it and leave, rely on the good-willingness of the host or get booted.

[Nerdinheimer]

That would be nice, but just a simple way of importing maps into the game is a fundanmental requirement. It's ludicrous at the moment, though I can live with it as long as Relic have it on the cards as things they're going to fix it he near future. Community map-packs will generally fill the need after that, as they have with DoW.

However, it ought to be fairly easy for Relic to create a dedicated download page (on Relic forums) as someone previously mentioned, with a list of ready to go maps/map-packs, and simply have a link button on the relic-online site. Problem solved.

[Dark_Avenger]

Downloading ANY custom map is short to impossible for 56k with 20mb maps.
I remember the days when I had 56k and wanted to download a 30mb demo of a game.. it took a whole morning.

So facilitate this for people who have some sort of bandwith, and with a progress bar in the lobby people could make their own choice about waiting or finding another game.
I already said what I thought could be done about this, just add an additional tab on relic online with all the custom maps made by people, instead of waiting for those people to download the map while in your game, they can just go to that tab while they are not in a game ad get the map they want

[LilRommel]

That's what you say now. What if you're sitting in the game lobby waiting for the game to start, and three people with 56k modems have to download 20mb?
wait people still have them? 8-)

[Volomon]

Can you even play this game with a 56K modem I see some very bad connections even with my broadband with other broadbands. I'd hate to see a 56k.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Most of the time, 'bad connections' is hardware lag on someones part. Netcode has come a long way.

[[DS] Virus]

There may be some sort of lag orientated issues but in other games I have played people host a game with a new map just to let people download it. As soon as you have downloaded the map, you exit the game and host your own. That way people can keep entering the host with the new custom map and keep downloading it. This normally cuts out any problems that people have obtaining maps due to internet speeds or maps sizes.

[DribbleSack]

For custom maps to work successfully there should be a seemless interface so that players can access and play these maps without having to mess around with - relatively - complex installation that is required at present.

The Worldbuilder appears to have been a bolt-on after thought rather than having been properly integrated into the game.

At the very least Relic/THQ should host a repository of maps allowing users to score them. They could then make regular map packs available for download, e.g. top 5 or 10 highest scoring maps.

[[DS] Virus]

Yes I agree with Dribblesack, that would seem like a good idea and if Relic selected preconstructed maps; not only would the selection of any builders map add kudos to the builder but it would also save a great deal of time for Relic who could simply added the maps to any upcoming patch.

[ÜberJumper]

Dude, p2p... The maps would be transferred BETWEEN players, not Player>server>Player

And Moe, that's easy to solve... Games won't start without each player having the map. Infact, you wouldn't even be able to join without the map (pre-game room downloading) or you could go the Warcraft 3 way and have players download it in the game setup room where a percentage shows the amount of the map remaining. People who take too long either get it and leave, rely on the good-willingness of the host or get booted.


Dude, peer to peer transfers are exactly what I was talking about. You CAN NOT do this with Relic's maps from either Dawn of War or Company of Heroes. The map files are simply to big for P2P transfer in a reasonable amount of time. ONE person joining the game with a crappy connection is going to make everyone have to wait until the host transfers it to that person. As you know, upload speeds are usually much slower than download speeds on broadband, thus transfering it from the host would be really slow.

The added complexity that this would bring on is NOT worth it.

What Relic needs to do is have maps get published to a download site that can handle the download volume. Even, perhaps, from their patch server.

When a player sees a game and they don't have a map for it, when they click on that server to try and join, it could download the file from that external site. When it's done downloading, then they could try and rejoin the game (if it hasn't launched yet).

They could try a P2P method, like a built in bittorent client, but that, IMO, would be even worse to support than the game running behind a firewall or NAT router (which is currently NOT supported). These issues have been discussed hundreds of times since Dawn of War (and before).

Relic's last game to allow map downloading, IIRC, was Homeworld, in which the game's map files were a simple text file.

[Dark_Avenger]

When a player sees a game and they don't have a map for it, when they click on that server to try and join, it could download the file from that external site. When it's done downloading, then they could try and rejoin the game (if it hasn't launched yet).

this is exactly what Im talking about, except that the external site could just be an aditional tab in relic online?

anyone agree here?

[[DS] Virus]

yes that would be an excellent idea mate, hence why everyone should put their name here!

[mckchun]

people with 56k modems shouldnt be playing this game online anyways

[Corsix]

And who will pay for this external site to host thousands of user made maps and who will pay for the bandwidth and upkeep?

[Nerdinheimer]

people with 56k modems shouldnt be playing this game online anyways
56k modems work fine. I use one. Never lag.

How many times does it need to said?

[Easy506/2ndBatt]

omg 56k isn't fit for gaming.

There's a reason most game boxes say "Broadband Internet Connection Required for Online Play".

You might not lag, but the other guy will feel that lag.

And hell 4v4 with 56k... damn.

Are the maps really 20mb? damn!

We at the very least need to have an easier way to play maps online if not dl them in Relic Online.

[ÜberJumper]

56K modems generally work fine for RTS games as there's very little data being transmitted between the players.

It's when your game REQUIRES you to download massive amounts of data just to play that they aren't effective.

[mckchun]

OMG, guys, please read the requirements at the back of the game case, it says this game 'may require broadband connection for internet play'.

56k isnt made for gaming, it's made for surfing web with extremely slow speed for low budget.

People with these modems are causing the lag. I hope I dont see them around while playing online.

[BlackLabel]

Well here is the deal. We all know that the CoH experiance needs more maps to really stay for the long run. Me and my buddys discussed that issue and it was covered in the latest ToH (http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=134222) also. Our ideas are the following :


Relic shall held a Map Contest all 1-2 MONTHS. I know that sounds like "alot" but its not that much if you think about that. The maps that are choosen shall be downloadable over the curent PATCH system. Meaning that you just logon to relic online and get , lets say 1-3 maps in a package. Everyone has the maps then. On this way you have the "oh but the files are huge and think about the poor souls with 56k modems" thinngy solved. ( maybe relic whould check them first to see if they match the recomondations regarding quality and style )

IF thats too much asked...let the community deceide what maps shall be uploaded next. Recently. I really love CoH. But it gets boring playing the same maps allover.

On the other hand...if you play CoD2 or RO online you sometimes have to download over 100mb of files ( especial for CoD2 ) to get mods/maps attached to your gamefiles.

I really dont see why that shouldent be implented. I know that making patches is a process that needs to be done well and right and that kind off stuff needs its time. But there are so many people out there who do develop really, really good maps. Its a great letdown that you have to use the -dev extention to get them to work. As much as i whould love to play more custom maps with my friends...its even hard to get everyone the same files at the right time.

I hope you get the idea.

The ingame sentence " We have been over this ground for 10 fucking times " basicly makes alot more sense after you play the game since the BETA.... ( This is a SOLID 5 MONTHS !!!! :) and i dont really remember a game i played that long a on a regular basis, besides "Codename Panzers" ONLINE. Heck..i even meet my buddys in this period of time and meet even more entusiasts over reliconline ) I really hope this can be done because using the current patch downloading system whould make things alot easyer and a hella lot more fun. And it whould be the most intelligent system to extend the current maps available without changing the system.

Thanks in advance...

BLKLBL

[ÜberJumper]

More often than not, you'll find the people that are running the game with the settings too high for their hardware, you know, the ones that load the game far too slowly on the horse race screen, that are causing the lag.

ps. Merged Blacklabel's thread with this one as it adds to the discussion.

[BlackLabel]

That was Über-fast-moderation...thanks...:wave:

[[DS] Virus]

Good point Black lablel, I think this is the way forward. I think that a Relic website with the maps ready to download is the way forward as it would allow people with slower connections to download maps in their own time

[Moe]

OMG, guys, please read the requirements at the back of the game case, it says this game 'may require broadband connection for internet play'.

56k isnt made for gaming, it's made for surfing web with extremely slow speed for low budget.

Sorry, but that's simply wrong. Please look at a replay file for CoH. How large is it? Now divide that size by the amount of seconds in a game, and you have an idea of the amount of data per second that had to be transferred.

I'm using this replay (http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=134403) as an example. The size reads 583 kilobytes. A 56k modem transfers 7 kilobytes per second at max speed. 583 / 7 = 84 seconds. Let's be generous and say that the modem is only working at 50% efficiency, so we halve the transfer rate, leading to 168 seconds.

I'm not sure how the net code work exactly, but let's assume for the sake of argument that all 3 players are transferring data to our 56k guy while he is also uploading data, so we multiply the 168 seconds by 4, which gives us 672 seconds, or roughly 11 minutes.

This means that unless the game linked above was over in less than 11 minutes, the 56k modem could handle it no sweat. And this is a fairly conservative estimate.

56k can handle RTS just fine. By the way, the standard DSL line only has 128k upstream despite having 768 or 1000k downstream. Meaning your upload bandwidth is only about 2 times as fast as a 56k modem. Good luck transferring a 20mb map with that in any reasonable amount of time.

[BlackLabel]

The method i described above whould solve that 56k problem IMO. Get the maps like patches and set up a seperate DL link for those who want to DLing before starting CoH. Problem solved...

[[DS] Virus]

yeah definately it would work, the question is will relic do it? And why havent they already?

[Redonmyhead]

I was worried playing COH with my 56k modem. I did just fine with it since the beta days. 56k was the only option I had in my area. Now broadband is available, I switched. Sweet jesus, I'm in heaven. Over course, i'm in hell with my wife since I spend too much time on the internet.

[[DS] Virus]

Arent we all Redonmyhead, I just accept that I am going to get shouted at, plug my headphones in and awayyyyyy u go!

[Virtual]

That's what you say now. What if you're sitting in the game lobby waiting for the game to start, and three people with 56k modems have to download 20mb? thats one of the few let downs, but this shouldnt happen too much, as they should understand that they cant join those games then.

you cant have evrything perfect.

[Moe]

Do you have a 56k modem?

[[DS] Virus]

I have a broadband speed of 8mb with a upload of around 500 so it doesnt really affect me, I dont know anyone who plays on a 56k modem, I cant imagine many people still do.

[Nurizeko]

Online petitions rarely work, so I will consider this just one big group suggestion.

I'll sign.

Also if possible could we also attach a smaller request for a more user friendly map editor.

I have better luck using the Delta Force Black hawk down editor.

At least put a mini map in....

[[DS] Virus]

I appreciate what you are saying nurizeko (http://forums.relicnews.com/member.php?u=13336) vbmenu_register("postmenu_2095372", true);
Member

and I agree, tbh, I wanted to raise the profile of the discussion so that it was a subject people where aware of, and then see what happens. Hopefully, Buggo will take a little lookie in here one day and sort everything out with her magic wand. Until that happens, I guess we will have to keep procrastinating.

[Mantaray]

well, for all you know relic ARE working on it, in fact im sure they are at least looking at it, but before they go about makeing the thing more customiseable i would have thought the priority would be makeing the game work without bugs before the needs of the modding community wich as a modder i can understand.
will not sign
when relic desides to it will, and im sure it will.

[Relic]

First of all, I'm not saying we can't do this.

BUT. From my understanding, CoH maps are huge. Huge compared to other games that have this system. It's something that would be cool, but I'm not entirely sure it is on our roadmap at this point. Then there are also the legal issues. If we serve up maps in "map packages" like BlackLabel suggests, we are then unfortunately responsible for the content and it would have to go through the same QA and art process and take as long as patches.

You know me, I love facilitating map contests and providing tools to the community. I know it is important.

But I think this may be an example of something that may be impossible to do within our framework and policies.

Either way, I will suggest this again to the dev team.

[Timeless]

Buggo, what about at least making it where we can simply download a map and if another person has it, we don't need the altered shortcut with the -dev extension under the target properties? Same with mods - would be very nice if you could, from the main menu, simply select which mod you want to play, just like in Impossible Creatures.

[Relic]

Buggo, what about at least making it where we can simply download a map and if another person has it, we don't need the altered shortcut with the -dev extension under the target properties? Same with mods - would be very nice if you could, from the main menu, simply select which mod you want to play, just like in Impossible Creatures.
That seems like there would be a lot of security/cheating problems with that.

[Timeless]

How so? You can do this in DoW. For example, you download a map from the internet, say Relic Forums. Now you can play that map with and against anyone else that has also downloaded it, without having to alter your DoW shortcut. You simply host a game and if the players that join have that map, they can play.

[ÜberJumper]

Timeless:

You CAN play maps without the -dev switch is my understanding, but the mappers need to package them properly.

[Plan6]

I think the whole maps being huge thing is what is holding Relic back.

Remember, CoH is one of the first game with fully destructable maps. There is a lot to them. Testing them takes a lot of work. Im sure some day we will be able to play maps with ease. I dont think RelicOnline will ever support downloading them, nor would I want it too. It would suck up to much server power and I dont really think I could trust people to make "safe" maps.

You can play with mods and a switch would be nice, but I would like to see other things first.

[fatjonnie]

I am a huge fan of the custom maps and mods that have come out of the fans of this game. As far as size the largest map i have is montee cassino and its 12mb and i dont think that is too much to ask of your IP in a reasonable amount of time. I think this game is a step forward from the "attack here" "defend here" rts games of old. I come from a Call Of Duty Group of players and after 4 years playing that franchise of games, and hosting and modding them, It is the mod makers and map makers that keep players playing the game and coming back every time to see whats new. The map and mod makers have kept the C&C generals going (as i dust it off to look) for 4 years after the games release. Yes there will be glitchy maps and crappy made ones but let me choose those OK? If you want COH on the shelves next Christmas it would behoove Relic to make the maps available P2P without the -dev and frequent updates with more "official" maps. You might be surprised where inspiration might come from.

[DarkMuppet]

I'm from a Call of Duty background too, and a 12mb map download is about average and is perfectly normal.

I think I mentioned this in another thread before but how about implementing this solution ...

When hosting a game and a custom map is to be used, have the option for the joining players to download the map from a redirect site. (This can just be a simple download link button added to the game setup screen.)

When setting up the game, the host simply pastes in the address of where the map is.

i.e .... www.Mywebspace.com\cohmaps\ (http://www.Mywebspace.com\cohmaps\)

While they are downloading this, a little loading bar can be shown on the screen for everyone else to see how quickly they are getting it. Obviously, if it's taking too long the host has the option of removing the player. When all players have downloaded the map, the game can then start.

Many people have webspace given to them by their ISPs so there should be quite a few players that can do this. I realise this wouldn't be the perfect solution, but it would certainly let a majority of players get to see new maps.

Or Relic and their publishers could create a central download server and let everyone link to that ? :D :nana:

[ÜberJumper]

Again, as far as I know, you DO NOT need the -dev extension to play properly packaged maps (the ones in SGA archives).

Note to you CoDers. Downloading a 12MB map in CoD was not that big of a deal *IF* the server had lots of bandwidth and *IF* all the players attempting to connect already had the map. Due to the nature of FPS games, it's not a problem for a couple people of the bunch to download the map files.

The CoD servers generally have higher bandwidth available than the average person hosting a game in CoH, while it might take 1 person joining a CoD server a few minutes (on a broadband connection) to download a map then join the game in progress, you can't do that for peer to peer games with the maps being so big.

[fldash]

UberJumper is correct, if the mappers package their map correctly you do NOT need the -dev command line parameter.

Also, when playing a mod on RelicOnline with -dev it does record your basic stats still. Is this a bug?

[DarkMuppet]

Uberjumper, Call of Duty servers (and all FPS games for that matter) DON'T actually have the players downloading from them. Pretty much all commercial servers also provide a redirect ftp service.

When a player joins a game where they don't have that map, they are redirected to a place that supplies the map i.e www.www.darkmuppetswebspace\mapdownloads\

When they have got it, they are then reconnected automatically to the server that they want to join.

I own 2 CoD servers, and on each server I have nearly 200 maps, which all add up to over 800mb ! :p

I also have 1 gig of webspace with a 12gig monthly limit (Costs me £25/ $40 a year) The players are sent to here by the game.

What i was thinking was an option on the game setup screen for the host to enter the redirect details into, so that when players join the game, they can simply click on a button which will then supply them with the map. When all the players have downloaded it, the game can start.

[Hatge]

That would be really helpful.