1.2 DC Chaos Space Marine / Raptor issues

[SubakuGaara]

Ok. After playing weeks as chaos and going through 2x major experimental phases, talking to some really good and very nice and sociable chaos experts, I've reached what I think are some viable conclusions.

Now the major gripes I hear from people who play against chaos is
1)you guys tech too fast
2)its always the same sorc>zerks>t3 and win

Let me tell you something. THIS IS THE ONLY WAY TO PLAY CHAOS AND BE SUCCESSFUL; if you don't believe me, try 20 games with CSM builds and not zerker builds and see how many you win. In fact, I did try about 20 games and trust me, I didn't win a whole lot. But with zerker builds I won 11 in a row before my first loss and was 21 of 24 at one point before hitting a bit of a wall vs some cron and a particularly good IG player.

All in all, I'd say of all the races in the game, chaos is by far the least flexible; thus the chaos players who are good learn this line, learn a few variants of it (ie mix in a horror here, a defiler there if necessary, lay gen a little later, econ boom a little earlier, etc), and make sure they learn it well. Because it is the only freaking thing that chaos can do that works. That to me is bullshit. (In a chaos mirror, if you dare try anything else, you will lose automatically)

If I ask you, what is chaos's core infantry unit, what would you answer? The CSM? Thats laughable. I'd say in about 1/3-1/2 of chaos games, csms show up someplace and even in that small fraction, they only play significant roles in t1 a little ranged support and then fade away. I'd also say that in about 9/10 chaos games, the zerker and the sorc will play significant t2 roles. The ZERKER is the core chaos infantry and not the csm. This is bullshit.

Problem is CSMs aren't very good by themselves, require an expensive barrack, take forever to get to strength, and finally their weapons choices isn't very good. HBs deal nice dps but the setup time and on a relatively slow platform makes them not as viable as say, guardsmen with plasma or grenades, or tacs who can mix in a flamer to compensate for their HB setup time, and so on. Chaos HWs hurt, but till you get to plasma they really aren't very effective. Can you mix in zerkers and CSMs? In theory yes. In practice no. You'd have to spend 200/75 and then 100/50 just to be able to get out decent looking csms and zerkers.

To make CSMs, more viable and to add more flexibilit to chaos builds I suggest

1)make asp champions be avalaible in t2 without the armory. Asp champions aren't very good without their upgrades and neither are CSMs. This change simply lets csms and cultists get access to berzerk fury without an armory. In the case of the csms, berzerk fury temporarily raises their dps from 10 dps to about 14 dps each (on par with the SM tac bolters after the first optics upgrade). This I think is a key step to making csms more viable

2)slash asp champ addition time to 12 seconds. 20 seconds (the current time) right now is so long. To add an asp champ and a heavy weapon right now is currently 30 seconds. In 30 seconds, a berzerker squad is at 80 percent full strength with 7 complete members. In 30 seconds, a csms squad is still at like 20 percent full strength with one asp champ and one heavy weapon. This is another major change that should be considered.

3) CSM plasma should be available in t2 with nerfed values. This is to give CSM weapons choices instead of always have to use a weapon with no FOTM. Having a weapon I know I can run and fight with goes a long long way; it is the very reason why ork big shootas are so good despite being on a low HP platform. Then simply have short t3 upgrade that scales the plasma back to its current form.

4)and this is the controversial one. I'm gonna have a lot of people complaining, and bitching and calling me names. They'll say some hurtful things, and call for me to be banned but whatever. I'm gonna say it. CSM Hbs need some changes particularly a range increase to some place between 36-40 range. The standard damage of Hbs after the weapons increase should be the default. The HBs should just increase #of heavy weapons and increase range to one of those values (CSM sight stays the same) and be t2 exclusive. Here's the issue. Its really hard to explain, but csms even with HBs get shot up. In an even fight, its almost impossible to actually get them to stand up and shoot. They never get to stand and shoot. I say increase the range a bit with the HB upgrade. Well what about Tacs, tacs seem to be able to do just fine with HBs. WEll actually, no... they don't. I rarely see tac Hbs at all. I see plasma and missiles. And when I do see tac Hbs, you see mass support for them like chappy and apothercary or you see a flamer or a plasma mixed in to help support the HB holders during that dangerous set up time. Yet chaos as a race can't really support ranged units very well nor can its hbs support themselves; melee units can be supported well, but ranged units not so well. They kinda have to work on their own.

Raptor issues:
1) drop flamer price (no brainer). 50/10 just doesn't cut it. 40/10 or 35/10 is more reasonable.

2) Have furious charge affect them too. Differentiates raptors from zerkers even more.

3) T3 upgrade of a power sword heavy weapon addition to 4 members, in effect increasing total squad dps by about 150 dps. Essentially making raptors soft AV and AB possibility. By the way, chaos can't take down buildings very well. Trust me on this one...

I never understood why people say chaos is strong. Its ok. Not great and level of play doesn't increase much with skill. The difference between the best chaos player and an average player is far less than the difference between the best eldar player and an average eldar player. I think its simply because of the flexibility. Eldar is super flexible and so skill plays more into it. Chaos is pretty linear with no flexibility and so everyone more or less does the same, and the best are better than you due to little things. Thats annoying as the little things are the hardest things to find when you go through a replay...

http://dowsanctuary.com/index.php?showtopic=28566&#entry263298

replay shows zerkers and CSMs used simultaneously. Judge for yourself which is more effective.

[ImmortalChaos]

Dropping CSM plasma into T2 with nerfs- sure. Scaling it back up to OMGIMBASHIT in T3 with cloaking? No. Freaking. Thanks.

The other 2 CSM changes I wouldnt mind much- It would probably make them quicker to mass, which would make them a viable option when you dont already have them massed, however if its too quick it would likely be imbalanced- Ranged is better than melee.

The rap flamer is definately overpriced, however IIRC, furios charge already gives them a 20% movement boost. If the speed upgrade gave them the 2 jumps back, and charge gave them a BIT of damage, I could see them being used again in T2- They would be REALLY, REALLY moble, and with the boost and the upgrade from charge on top of their already fast movement speed, they would pretty much have melee on the move, making them great against dancers.

Honestly, their main unit depends on what you did in T1- If you go raps, you WILL have to make zerks in T2, you simply wont have the time. If you mass CSM and the CL, then the CSM scale just as well as TSM, bar some things like healing.

[SubakuGaara]

Actually I disagree about the tacs. if the attack was successful, I could always stamp them out by adding 45 range AB missiles right then and there. Tacs have knockout punch potential, something a lot of units don't have. Zerkers and sorc don't have it; they still need chaos t3 to knock out a person. CSMs certainly don't have it with hbs. HBs can only push so far into a base and them they have to retreat and thier building med damage is quite crappy. Don't you agree that tacs have knock out potential? In fact, with my SM acount, I almost never to lose to the new ork cause once I get rolling, my missiles squash their waagh banners and its over; I can't do the same with my chaos units (any of my chaos units) until t3, where ork is equally as tough.

edit: i was trying to post a replay from dow sanc where i went csms and zerks cause I was having fun. If I had done standard build to t3, he wouldn't have had a chance, but because I decided to try csms to he actually managed to repel two major attacks and push majorly deep into my base. I was like wtf? CSMs suck so much. Its a good replay because you get to see right then and there which unit is more effective: csms with hbs or zerks.

[ImmortalChaos]

Well I was begging for CSM heavy weapons back in the 1.11 thread... If you want punch thats where to get it.

[SubakuGaara]

I'm actually inclined to agree with you, even if all csms get are nerfed versions. For example, you can't give CSM the same missile as with berzerk fury they'd be doing ridiculous damage to buildings. But yeah , if it'd give knockout power back to the csm, sure I'm all for it. ANything to make them more viable.

[ImmortalChaos]

Well that would be the idea- They are worse than SM heavy weapons, but in the time it was actually really needed (think: vehicle assault) they could let rip the angry and outperform for a short time.

[SubakuGaara]

My whole point with CSMs is that they aren't viable on their own and they aren't given any tricks to increase their survivability. tau get exceptional range and so they don't get so shot up and are more survivable. Sm get exceptional healing as well as numerous weapon choices for the different ranges; this overall boosts survivability. Eldar get fof to boost survivability (the best of all). CSMs have no survivability boosting assistance. I suggest a slight range increase for the HB so they don't get so shot up.

Again, right now the only way to play an win with chaos is rap>zerk+sorc>t3. try anything else and your win rates will plummet. I think csms are the solution to adding flexibility to chaos. A few slight buffs to csms (mostly buffs to get them up to their current speed a little faster) would go a long way to allowing chaos to be as flexible as the other races.

[Jaimas]

I'm all for giving CSM back Flamers and Missiles. Even if it means CSM Uberplas needs to take a cut.

[Lunesta]

why did chaos lose the rockets and the flamers in the first place?

[The_Guardman]

The WA team wished to make CSM different from SMs. Why they added an overlapping unit (Zerks cover the same exact role of the Raptor) it is a mystery. But the WA team did lot of strange things...

1)make asp champions be avalaible in t2 without the armory.
I agree.

2)slash asp champ addition time to 12 seconds.
No. I remember the CSM AspCh Plasma pistol rush. I do not like to see it again.

3) CSM plasma should be available in t2 with nerfed values. (...) Then simply have short t3 upgrade that scales the plasma back to its current form.
Yes on it on nerfed T2, and give them back flamer (no brainer) and maybe roket.
No on buff at T3.

4)and this is the controversial one. I'm gonna have a lot of people complaining, and bitching and calling me names. They'll say some hurtful things, and call for me to be banned but whatever. I'm gonna say it. CSM Hbs need some changes particularly a range increase to some place between 36-40 range. The standard damage of Hbs after the weapons increase should be the default. The HBs should just increase #of heavy weapons and increase range to one of those values (CSM sight stays the same) and be t2 exclusive. Here's the issue. Its really hard to explain, but csms even with HBs get shot up. In an even fight, its almost impossible to actually get them to stand up and shoot. They never get to stand and shoot. I say increase the range a bit with the HB upgrade. (...)
No, due to metagame issue. Some army will suffer a lot from such range addition, expecially with frontline CC specialists as spotter/ cult infiltration. IG,Necrons and Tau will have a very hard time vs. this, not talking about T3 long range infiltrated HB wall.

Raptor issues:
1) drop flamer price (no brainer). 50/10 just doesn't cut it. 40/10 or 35/10 is more reasonable.
Agree. 30/10 to me :)

2) Have furious charge affect them too. Differentiates raptors from zerkers even more.
Hummm. Maybe. I am not really sure of the consequence...

3) T3 upgrade of a power sword heavy weapon addition to 4 members, in effect increasing total squad dps by about 150 dps.
No, becouse:
1) not possible, unless you make it a weapon upgrade
2) no becouse they will cover both Horrors and Zerker role, and if roket return the horrors will already be hard to balance.

[SubakuGaara]

The WA team wished to make CSM different from SMs. Why they added an overlapping unit (Zerks cover the same exact role of the Raptor) it is a mystery. But the WA team did lot of strange things...
agreed



2)slash asp champ addition time to 12 seconds.
No. I remember the CSM AspCh Plasma pistol rush. I do not like to see it again.
I remember it being with cultist. I don't recall a csm asp champ pistol rush and even still woudl it be that deadly seeing as asp champ pistol only does about about 25 dps to Hmed (half a heavy bolter). And still it's greatly slowed down by the expensive armory. How would you pull one off and why isn't it viable now seeing as armory and pistols are still t1? I think you were thinking cultist asp champ pistols which is dirt cheap build and kinda dirty to use.


3) CSM plasma should be available in t2 with nerfed values. (...) Then simply have short t3 upgrade that scales the plasma back to its current form.
Yes on it on nerfed T2, and give them back flamer (no brainer) and maybe roket.
No on buff at T3.

eh... either way is fine. Rockets add knockout punch to csms, but so does plasma in t3.



4)and this is the controversial one. I'm gonna have a lot of people complaining, and bitching and calling me names. They'll say some hurtful things, and call for me to be banned but whatever. I'm gonna say it. CSM Hbs need some changes particularly a range increase to some place between 36-40 range. The standard damage of Hbs after the weapons increase should be the default. The HBs should just increase #of heavy weapons and increase range to one of those values (CSM sight stays the same) and be t2 exclusive. Here's the issue. Its really hard to explain, but csms even with HBs get shot up. In an even fight, its almost impossible to actually get them to stand up and shoot. They never get to stand and shoot. I say increase the range a bit with the HB upgrade. (...)

No, due to metagame issue. Some army will suffer a lot from such range addition, expecially with frontline CC specialists as spotter/ cult infiltration. IG,Necrons and Tau will have a very hard time vs. this, not talking about T3 long range infiltrated HB wall.



Possible; I'm almost fully inclined to agree. But Let me ask you this, how is tau currently balanced with having kroot and 40 range FWs coming from same barracks? If tau can balance that out, perhaps the csms can balance it too. About the infiltrate, it'd have to go of course.



3) T3 upgrade of a power sword heavy weapon addition to 4 members, in effect increasing total squad dps by about 150 dps.
No, becouse:
1) not possible, unless you make it a weapon upgrade
2) no becouse they will cover both Horrors and Zerker role, and if roket return the horrors will already be hard to balance.

1)yes as heavy weapon upgrade similar to power claws.
2)horrors will still be better and cheaper alternative at building and av. Do power claws displace tankbustas? To equip a raptor with a "powersword heavy weapon" I'm thinking along the lines of a total cost os 110/15. At that cost, they certainly won't displace horrors especially against vehicles who can move about. Though I think the balance teams of the past have done really werid things to the horror squad and now its just an unusual unit.

[The Boz]

CSM and Raptors need some more beef, the Chaos game has for me turned into a Zerk rush with Cultist Plasmas in the back. CSMs are only worth it in T3 to start building, so they get to be invisible.
CSM buff:
Speed up their Morale regen while in combat. Flamers don't belong here, Raptors have them, and Rockets would also be unneeded, as Chaos has Horrors for AV/AB duties. Defilers do the disruption, as do Cultist Grenades, so I don't see a place for Rockets to fit in.
Raptor buff:
Have Furios Charge affect Raptors by giving their one poor jump the feature of knocking down all infantry around the spot the Raptor is landing at. Should also have higher Morale regen in combat, and a 10 sec reinforce. Their Flamer should be cheaper, deal less damage, but inflict more Morale damage.

[The_Guardman]

Have Furios Charge affect Raptors by giving their one poor jump the feature of knocking down all infantry around the spot the Raptor is landing at. Should also have higher Morale regen in combat, and a 10 sec reinforce. Their Flamer should be cheaper, deal less damage, but inflict more Morale damage.

No, no, no. Buffed morale damage & cheaper flamers is madness, as reinforce speed buff+ morale regen increase in a T1 assault unit.

The disruptive jump is nice, and I like it, but I fear would be more a disadvantage than anything.

[SubakuGaara]

Not exactly. raptors for some reason pause on the landed spot waiting for members to arrive. Means they are vulnerable if they are jumping in to, say, tie up firewarrirors. A knock down is very interesting in deed. but that alone wouldn't make raptors all that much scalable still.

Again I suggest power sword upgrades in t2 or t3 one of the which so they can be soft AB/AV as well as harassment. A cheaper flamer would help the morale management too but even still will get phased out in t3 as if you have a flamer then you have an armory and access to mark of khorne the uber morale manager in this game.

[SirNick]

There's a lot of sweeping changes called for here, but I'm particularly going to address that of CSM Heavy Bolters.

Heavy Bolters are fine. I think you're using them fundamentally wrong in that you're completely neglecting the most crucial aspect of a fine HB wall - the Rhino.

Heavy Bolters have setup time, CSM have 375 HP (475 with Purge the Weak), and CSM, even with Furious Charge, take a while to hoof it places. They also don't like walkers.

Using a Rhino for 2+ Heavy Bolter Squads is cheap, easy, and solves all of those problems. You zip around, pop out in perfect formation, shoot, then you scoot. To get around the HP limitation, that's what Smoke Grenades are for. Two Smoke Grenades and you get a -75% ranged damage reduction, which can easily compensate for a Berzerk Fury moment. Plus, Rhinos laugh at puny Basilisk shells and Hellfire Dreadnoughts.

Honestly, considering the amazing potential of zipping around in Rhinos and how they augment HBs, any Heavy Bolter buffs are going to be magnified further.

Heck, even Berzerkers run interference much better in a Rhino - dump off 2 HB squads and run the Rhino into the other ranged squads, dropping off the Berzerker squad to tie up one squad and using the Rhino to ram another. Particularly nasty if HB squads are cloaked -- won't even notice the squads dropped off.

Point being, CSMs are just fine considering the tools at their hands.

[martyr3810]

Have Furios Charge affect Raptors by giving their one poor jump the feature of knocking down all infantry around the spot the Raptor is landing at. Should also have higher Morale regen in combat, and a 10 sec reinforce. Their Flamer should be cheaper, deal less damage, but inflict more Morale damage.



Thats actually a really good/cool idea. IMO of course.

I believe CSM are fine in their current incarnation, people just want them to be more chaos SPACE MARINEy. Emphasis on Space Marines rather than Chaos. I like the emphasis on Chaos just fine.

P.S. And Rhinos are underutilized. They're awesome units. Smoke grenades and 1000 hp for a cheap vehicle that doesn't take up vehicle cap? Yeah I'll take them!

[Merker]

That whole post and you don't mention CSM grenades. If you really want to improve your mad skillz with chaos then you certainly must be using those 3 second stun grenades you get with every squad(after the 25req/75 power upgrade), which work against any infantry, commanders and monster unit(you know like good eldar use their squad abilities). Also why do you need longer range on a unit that's invisible(with a weapon with longer range then most detectors)? CSM are one of the few squads that actually scale into T3 khorne berzerkers do but it's situational as the other race can't have to much morale immunity or they stop working. Also CSM don't have a squad tax despite this great scaling so feel free to lose a squad.

Chaos building damage is fine if you use anything besides khorne berserkers and raptors you know like a defiler, the chaos lord, sorc, horrors can you say straw man arguement. Hardly a need for ML when you have an AV/AB deep strike unit in t2 maybe you just want more damage then a horror squad gives. Because I know SM ML are pouring out the damage in spades. Perhaps you don't want to build yet another building, which does seem a common theme in your threads.

<conspiracy theory>

This is the second post where you don't want to have and buy a building. Most(every?) other race needs an armory why should Chaos be any different. Is this some sort of plan to secretly increase your tech speed while still being able to have a flexible army?

</conspiracy theory> ;)

[The Boz]

P.S. And Rhinos are underutilized. They're awesome units. Smoke grenades and 1000 hp for a cheap vehicle that doesn't take up vehicle cap? Yeah I'll take them!
Transports are underutilized. I said it before, there are three types of players who use transports:
Imperial Guard players, it's our AV/AI :D
Eldar players, cause their transport is a good tank in it's own right.
Tau players, cause their transport is an invisible AI heavy infantry deployment vehicle.
Only people who play these races will bother using a transport while playing a different race. Rarely, if ever, will an SM player even fathom using one. Someone said today, in a different thread, "I don't use Apothecaries, I buy units that actually deal damage". I think that kind of mentality is the core of the issue.

[martyr3810]

I admit that since I normally play Chaos now, ever since I first started using transports, their use has gone up and up. Of course, I was a Guard player the last 4 patches and expansion, so my familiarity with transports was already pretty good :P

(Also since I discovered PSM only take up one slot in a transport - nothing like dropping PSM, CSM and Zerks in the back of their base - then DSing horrors and Oblits... nothing like it XD)

Smoke launchers have their uses too.

[SubakuGaara]

Well I'm hearing a lot about transports but I think it doesn't work well with chaos. Here's why

1) chaos fast tech often skips machine pitl; sac circle is cheaper, faster, and more effective in general. SM tactica is strengthened by the machine pit; sacred artificact actual weakens and slows SM teching
2) CSMs only get Hbs in t2. Hbs while good vs infantry targets is paltry vs buildings vehicles, commanders, etc. Point is, you can't perfectly simulate tacs in rhinos with csms in rhinos as the tacs have a weapon for every target. It means if tacs want that barrack dead, they can make it dead, while CSMs will struggle against anything but an LP.
3) Chaos's best units deploy extremely quickly to field to where rhino's aren't really needed. Someone said that PSMs in rhinos was a good combo. reality is PSms are so fast on their own they don't need a rhino to get around. Oblits deepstrike and teleport. Horrors ds. Daemon prince is summoned. Bloodthirster is summoned. And so on.

Again, the basic issue is that CSMs lack something because if you try and play with them your win rates will probably fall dramatically. I think the issue is deployment speed. It takes forever for CSMs to get even close to full strength (and I'm talking about a 5 man csm+ 1 asp champ+ 3-4 heavy weapons). At least a minute and a half. On the other hand for zerkers or raptors, it takes much less time. I don't think "more rhino use" will be the end all solution that will suddenly project csms back into the spot light. They need something because in t1 and t2 they feel... incomplete. Yes even with grenades.

[psychodil]

I think its more that your win rate will dramatically rise if you start spamming bezerks and chains rather than your win rate dropping if you go to CSM's. Bezerkers just outshine all other tier 2 infantry when chains is used.

[SubakuGaara]

Well.... somewhat. I still think plasma tacs are better as its hard to get more than 2x zerks out without spending the time and req for the pop cap upgrade. SM however can get 3x tacs+4x scouts without breaking the pop cap easy, not to mention three heros. I actually doubt the top SM players suffer greatly at the hands of zerker+chains cause they use grenades and rhinos (strangely enough if a unit is hit with chains, it can still board a rhino transport...gay...)

But the fact that zerkers outshine csms and get to strength faster is part of my argument. Just remember that its not just zerkers. Reapers, banshees, shoota boys, just about everything else get to strength faster than CSMs. Even tacs in a way. Tacs get to strength faster as tac full strength comes not just from armory upgrades which can be started early due to its cheaper price but also from a supporting cast that comes from separate buildings like the chappy and landspeeds.

[ImmortalChaos]

1) chaos fast tech often skips machine pitl; sac circle is cheaper, faster, and more effective in general. SM tactica is strengthened by the machine pit; sacred artificact actual weakens and slows SM teching
First of all, it IS possible to get both of them. The sac circle is extremely cheap. The SA is an amazing investment for SM; apothicaries absolutely OWN, and smite is still damned good. Not to mention hero upgrades.


2) CSMs only get Hbs in t2. Hbs while good vs infantry targets is paltry vs buildings vehicles, commanders, etc. Point is, you can't perfectly simulate tacs in rhinos with csms in rhinos as the tacs have a weapon for every target. It means if tacs want that barrack dead, they can make it dead, while CSMs will struggle against anything but an LP.
CSM HBs are better than SM HBs or plasma in terms of DPS against infantry targets. Add in fury and once they pop out of their rhinos they will absolutely slaughter whatever infantry has just been snuck up on. Need AV? Horrors can deep strike. Thats better than getting a ride. (I'm not sure if the horrors can then hitch a ride in the rhino- while it would be cool it seems unlikely)


3) Chaos's best units deploy extremely quickly to field to where rhino's aren't really needed. Someone said that PSMs in rhinos was a good combo. reality is PSms are so fast on their own they don't need a rhino to get around. Oblits deepstrike and teleport. Horrors ds. Daemon prince is summoned. Bloodthirster is summoned. And so on.
Well, the best unit to use rhinos with are CSMs and to an extent, zerkers. Drive them behind a mass of FWs, GM, or DRs, pop out, use chains/bolt, hit fury, own.

I wont deny that it slows tech and I wont deny that it requires massive econ, but CSM can do it just as well as SM.

[SubakuGaara]

But is that as equally as effective as simply avoiding the costs of the extra machine pit and the rhino transport, of the armory and all the upgrades, and instead going 2x zerkers, sac pit and tech to possessed? I say no, and chaos players will merely do whats most effective.

Now with tacs, the tac tactica is at times more effective than say scout tactica or machine tactica or hero builds. But with chaos, perhaps only against necron are csms more effective than zerker+quick tech. Am I wrong? If I'm right, don't you think csms need something then to make them a little more effective, even if its simply getting them to strength a little faster?

[Merker]

I actually doubt the top SM players suffer greatly at the hands of zerker+chains cause they use grenades and rhinos (strangely enough if a unit is hit with chains, it can still board a rhino transport...gay...)


Why not do the same and use the money you saved on zerks and sorcs to techup.

M

[SubakuGaara]

Not sure I understand what you're saying. I'm saying people have found ways around zerks and sorc (like using a rhino or a grav tank to hide your troops). I said that in response to pyschodil who said zerks outshine all t2 troops, which is true to some extent.

My whole argument is in general chaos is almost always better of going zerks sorc than csms with HBs when in t2. SO something should be done to make csms a little more desirable but not so desirable to make them oped. I think the issue is deployment speed. Some people say there is no issue and that csms with rhinos works fine. My counter is the costs of the csm upgrades (ie armory+upgrades) and the costs of the rhinos (machine pit+rhinos) is too high a price to pay when you can spend 1 min in t2 with a couple of zerks and sorc harassing and then use the saved req to get to t3 where chaos really begins to shine. T3 csms are quite nice especially if you use the upgrade time for the HQ to also start the csm upgrades (my new tactica). T2 csms in my opinion not so nice.

[Slow_Runner]

Heavy Bolters can already pack massive damage. I definitely would't start buffing them without a very, very convincing reason.

Raptors, to be honest, I don't think they need speed 29 (40 with speed fiend upgrade).

I'm honestly getting a "I'm winning too easy with berserkers and T3 tech" vibe here.

[WhiteDeVile]

Um, this may be a little offtopic xd

But I recall reading some fluff, or whatever 40k realm related story/book (dunno, found it on teh internetz)
And theres was a big battle at the end of the story, aaand chaos's main force was zerks >__>

(it was a story about a guard who fought alone after his squad died, and a space marine helped him at the end)

As for your ideas... please DONT move plasma in tiers >__> With current detectors cloaked CSM with HB or PG is kinda pain in teh arse sooo whats the problem ?
Oh sure Chaos gets limited variety at tier 2, but theres Possesed... cant recall are they T2 or T3 ... whatever :F

[SubakuGaara]

I'm honestly getting a "I'm winning too easy with berserkers and T3 tech" vibe here.



Well actually its more of a "I can't win with the unit I spend 9 hours coloring with in army painter"... or "I can't find a decent place to put them". Its just really really hard to justify going csm tactica for me. If you really want to argue, just show me places or situations where csm tactica will be worth it over standard chaos fast tech.

And again most of my buffs that I'd really like to see implemented are just buffs to the time it takes to get a csm squad up to speed, like reducing asp champ add time to 12-15 secs instead of the current 20 secs. In fact in truth, that is the major one that really really hinders good csm play for me. It takes so freaking long to get them going if you have to start from scratch. So why not mimic sm and build csms in tier 1? Well why when raptor tactica in t1 is soooo good? Again you see that problem begins to creep up. I have just very very little incentive to use them and even in tier 3 I just build them as a laugh; defiler spam is a lot safer and faster than csms with plasma. And so on...

the basic premise of this thread is chaos has very little incentive to use csms the way they should be used, so lets figure out ways to give chaos more incentive to use csms without making them super super imba, if thats possible.

[HotForever]

Perhaps move Purge the weak upgrade to the chaos stronghold? That way, CSM can have some HP buff without wasting req/power for armory in tier 2 and wouldn't slow down teching.

[drcole]

the basic premise of this thread is chaos has very little incentive to use csms the way they should be used, so lets figure out ways to give chaos more incentive to use csms without making them super super imba, if thats possible. Sabu surely you know that's because rap harass -> zerks + sorc -> t3 PSM / oblits no brainer strat is just too damn effective. Why bother with CSM and slowing your tech on the railroad to uber choas t3? I don't see a convincing argument as to why CSM should be buffed in your thread other than the stock Choas build is so damn effective right now.

I would be looking at nerfs before buffs to fix things to be honest as it stands right now.

[Kkharn]

Well actually its more of a "I can't win with the unit I spend 9 hours coloring with in army painter"
lol....

[SubakuGaara]

Sabu surely you know that's because rap harass -> zerks + sorc -> t3 PSM / oblits no brainer strat is just too damn effective. Why bother with CSM and slowing your tech on the railroad to uber choas t3? I don't see a convincing argument as to why CSM should be buffed in your thread other than the stock Choas build is so damn effective right now.

I would be looking at nerfs before buffs to fix things to be honest as it stands right now.



In fact, i couldn't agree more. Chaos is already pretty close to being imba in t3. But you stated it yourself: the build strat is so good and is so all purpose that there is so little incentive to try and mix in csms which will so definitely slow it down. Upgrades in t2 alone come out to like 400/300 or close to it.. And then it takes forever to get the csms to speed. So at least you identify there is a problem and at least you know what it is. Problem is, is it a fixable one. is it actually possible to make csms more desirable in more situations without making chaos imba?

[drcole]

I think it is, but not without slowing down Choas tech to t3. The problem is that pathway is so damn streamlined it could be an f1 car. The sac circle is such a freakin cheap structure to allow tech to t3 and it pretty much gives you everything you need to hold out till t3 hits.

I dunno.. it's a matter of balancing two mutualy exclusive paths I guess. Sac circle is stupidly cheap for t3 requisite structure that then lets you pop out about the best melee unit in the game as soon as you hit t3. On the flipside armoury is very expensive so I agree there is no incentive to go that route right now. I think at the very least sac circle should be more expensive, and possibly the armoury should be a little cheaper.

Prob with that I guess is that if you go armoury build AV becomes a problem..

[SubakuGaara]

perhaps tweak HB stats or have heavy weapons upgrade make Hbs a little more AV? It doesn't have to be insane HB, but enough to where if HBs greatly outnumber vehicles, hbs will stand and put up a good fight?

[tygereye]

I dunno.. it's a matter of balancing two mutualy exclusive paths I guess. Sac circle is stupidly cheap for t3 requisite structure that then lets you pop out about the best melee unit in the game as soon as you hit t3. On the flipside armoury is very expensive so I agree there is no incentive to go that route right now. I think at the very least sac circle should be more expensive, and possibly the armoury should be a little cheaper.

Amen to that. The price of the upgrades to make CSM competitive in T2 is already huge. The 200/75 armory added to that is overkill. The second most expensive armory, the SM one, (not counting eldars and Tau here cause they tech up by constructing their armory) cost 25/25 less which is huge. Ork and IG armories cost 50/25 less. So I would be for making chaos armory 175/75 or better 150/75. At 150/75 it would still be the most costy armory early game cause of the power cost (which I wouldn't change to not allow AC power weapon rush without gen). Then I would up the price of the sac pit to 125/50 like the SM Sacred Artifact.

Concerning raptors I would be for making their flamers scale with HW upgrade (like +60% DPS) I would also make them a bit less costy like 45/10. After all tacs and sluggas flamers scale why not raptor one? It would also make the armory more wanted as it would make the raptors scale better in T2.

[Schlamiel]

I don't see a convincing argument as to why CSM should be buffed in your thread other than the stock Choas build is so damn effective right now.

I would be looking at nerfs before buffs to fix things to be honest as it stands right now.

I couldent agree more. I am all for a more versatile chaos army, since the Zerker build is quite frustrating, very hard to beat, and is a total no brainer, not to mention boring.

Bur severly buffing the rest of the CSM, without any nerfs to the race, thats just pure madness. If u want to buff the CSM, then nerf the Zerks, or something. Its about balancing, the Zerks are close to bieng OP, and if the rest of the Chaos army are given the buffs Subakugaara suggests, then Chaos will be nearly as unstoppable as 1.1 Necs.

If a race thats close to being balanced wants more buffs, it must be ready to accept nerfs in other appartments

[santiago4ever]

I don't see any major issues with the current chaos tier 1/2. Tier 3 might be a bit too strong though but not horribly so.

Depending on the matchups CSMs are wonderful, they absolutely rip necrons up, used on a large map in combination with the Rhino and there are few races which can take them on. They have trouble fighting against eldar/Tau though because of their better ranged units, which is why you should do rap/cults openers against these races most of the time, getting a squad or two with HBs in tier 2 is always an option though.

[SubakuGaara]

I don't know. Maybe you're right, though I don't see anyone winning with csms consistently. Not to say they can't but I know that often when I go csms, games seem to be a lot harder than they normally would be. Though I have yet to really use this csm+rhino combination. What makes me hesistant is asking "well what is furious charge for then?" LOL.

[santiago4ever]

For the maps where you can't get the econ high enough to get machine pit up. Or for when you go pure infantry mass and don't want to spend resources on machine pit until tier 3.

[SubakuGaara]

not understanding santi. please use complete sentences with subjects and predicates. lol

[SirNick]

Nah, it seems straightforward to me.

Furious Charge bumps your CSMs up to the speed level slightly faster than Berzerkers. That's pretty zippy and outpaces most regular infantry, letting you shoot and scoot a bit.

So if you've got a quick 25 seconds' worth of spare time in the Armory, it's not a bad idea and never hurts.

Plasma Pistols, Purge the Weak, and the Heavy Weapons Upgrade are far higher priority most the time, though.

[MoschBoy]

reading through 3 pages of.... "winning with zerkers and T3 is too easy"... makes me wan to force chaos players to play IG. :help:

CSM ARE viable, especially with rhinos and smoke - ironically just not against other CSM players. so where is the problem? if you think CSM builds << other races, maybe try some imagination and micro skills to get it working (it works fine for me) instead of complaining CSM dont seem to be as effective as zerkers+tech. in fact - why is this thread in the balance issues subforum? the OP obviously needs viable strategys and tips for CSM use instead of using the easy zerker+tech strategy.

[BurnedToast]

I don't play chaos that often, but when I do I never have any luck with zerkers. They just end up getting danced around LP2's or turrets or something and while chains lets me eat a squad after thats done my zerks just run around uselessly.

I always seem to do way better with CSM.. though I agree the cost to get them + bolters + bolter upgrade is steep and slows down your tech ALOT.

maybe I just suck at chaos though :p

[MoschBoy]

the problem is not CSM being not viable. its just that zerkers+tier 3 tech is much easier - which comes quite handily to many chaos players (statement by a chaos player that beat me with tier 3 tech: "Why should i waste time with trying anything else when this gets the job done everytime i use it? I play to win, and this tactic is the easiest and most efficient way to win).

if cc troops as example where a bit harder to use, chaos tier 3 techs and zerkers wouldnt be such a problem. but relic gave them fast available cc units with high dmg output, no morale and high speed - no wonder they have become a no- brainer for chaos players - and in turn many chaos players seem to have lost their brains. additionally, gameplay for chaos hasnt changed much in DC since 1.0, resulting in a chaos community similar to the white shark - no need to evolve and change because they are already well suited to deal with everything on the field anyway - why take any risks if basically the same thing since the first WA/DC days chaos did still makes you uber?

if you want change in tactics and gameplay, you have to change race, and not play chaos atm. personally i have played about 20 games against chaos players (1300 - 1500 ranks), and they ALL did the same thing (and believe me, knowing what they are going to do wont make it any easier to counter) - precisely the same tactic again and again. its kinda like this strategy has been blueprinted into chaos player minds.

[peturabo]

Csm get outperformed in every area vs every race on Tier2 that is why their mandatory strategy is to fast tech.

[MoschBoy]

so mixing them with something like.... zerkers or something like that is not viable? what happened to the good old tier 2 fights? :soul:

[SubakuGaara]

its ok... you need a strong t1 game or a complete lack of harassment from the opposing side for it to work though.

[psychodil]

I thinlk CSM can be competitive in tier 2. Its just that zerkers > Tier 3 is so dirt cheap and effective, and also requires much less micro and marco (hello no upgrades needed until tier 3).

[Enochian]

They are nice when they infiltrate but thats so late in the game now. compared to a marine with flamers,hb,rockets, and plasma they are outclassed. the early infiltrate was not all that great i dont know why they changed it really.
They are very good army with many other things to choose from so im not complaining though. And once tiered out they are nearly unstoppable.

[Ruonim]

im tired of playing same ans same games vs chaos. raptors fast t2 zerks fast t3 psm. GG if he was good enought.

[fs_xyz]

Just suggestions :

*Reducing Chaos barrack price might help a bit... it is the most overpriced barrack.
( don't compare it with necron... )

*Make cultist able to cloack at T1 ?
Cloack upgrade moved to HQ but need armoury ( like SM Scout cloack ), but reduce grenade launcher number. ( 1 or 2 for a squad )
Comparing cultist detection with how other race get early mobile detection. (req/en)
-Ig : psyker needs stone research + tactica or barrack + CS
( 100/50 + 75/25 + 150/50 = 325/125 OR 125/0 + 120/25 + 80/40 = 325/65 )
-SM : probe needs armoury/barrack + LP
( 250/0 + 100/0 + 75/0 = 425/0 OR 175/50 + 100/0 + 75/0 = 350/50 )
-Tau : vespid needs tau barrack ( 150/30 + 150/0 = 300/30 )
-Eldar : warlock needs aspect portal + a guardian squad
( 100/0 + 130/0 + 55/15 = 285/15 )
Pretty cheap, but the next detector need another 185/15 since warlock is a squad leader.
-Necron : .... free builder ( imba... I guess ) but if you count wraith, it needs summoning core. ( 120 + 60 =180 OR 0 if builder )

Current cultist detection needs cultist + upgrade + barrack.
( 80/0 + 25/0 + 300/0 = 405 )
If only need armoury for maximum cultist utility, 80/0 + 200/75 = 280/75, then detection price need to become about 70-100. ( the process to get detection already need EN... )

*Make CSM infiltration avaible after sacrificial pit.

Probably sound OPed...

[holyknight]

I don't like how ALL the upgrades for EVERYTHING in in armory.
There's more important stuff to upgrade than Cultists infiltration.
And I also agree with CSM with HB are weak.
Get owned by Guardsmen with nade launcher (or maybe I just suck... or maybe my friend is just too good...)

and I don't get why everyone is saying Zerkers are really strong.
They got raped by guardsmen + plasma + execute + some microing + command squad also distracting...

or maybe I just suck =/

[scales]

the complaints you are making Subaku are the exact complaints that IG players are making (high cost, high build times, expensive upgrades). With one exception, chaos can choose which strat/infantry to use in t1/t2, IG are stuck with guradsman.
So please deal with "apparently" not being able to use CSM

[Pellucid]

We can make Chaos more flexible when we make IG more flexible, I think. :nyah:

[Melonplant]

Oh god, don't give chaos space marines any form of a rocket, weak or not.

Has ANYONE mentioned chaos vehicles? I skipped 2 pages of posts but they do have predators and defilers at tier 2.5ish. And although rockets will take the defiler down in a second, if you ranged stance that defiler, you can certainly make some infantry cry. raptors plus a couple plasmas fast tech to vehicles. I've also seen horrors and chaos space marines work well.

Anyways, chaos are plenty versatile.

[hermanJnr.]

Chaos is my fave race, so I thought I'd be backing this stuff, but honestly, I don't really see the balance "issue" here. As has already been said, it's not like CSM aren't viable at all, or are extremely weak - upgraded in later tiers they're actually pretty scary.

Isn't the whole point of Chaos that they use combined arms? I find mixing some raps and the Lord, then getting some CSM for ranged punch is usually a pretty effective force against any infantry...and judging by many other Chaos players I've seen, they do too.

Plus in Tier 2 we get the shiny new reinforcable Horrors, which I'm now taking a liking too :)

Unlike SM spamming just Tacs at the start doesn't really get us anywhere fast, it's when mixed with Raps, Zerks and upgrades that things get nasty, and I'm all for skillful combined stuff with micro rather than 1 unit mega-fests, there's enough of that already.

Nothing specifically forces you to fast tech to zerks and PSM, it's just a good strat. Strat freedom ftw!

[tygereye]

Yes CSM are a competitive force in T2 but certainly not more than Tacs (and not versatil at all) now that infiltrate has been pushed to T3, still fielding CSM is more costy than tacs because of :

1- more costy buidings
2- more costy upgrages in the armory (especially the power cost)

On another hand fielding zerks is a lot cheaper and you also get horrors for AV when you put down a sac pit. So you have a more well rounded force for cheaper than CSM. I wouldn't say that zerks are better AI than CSM, but the zerk-horror combo is far better for cost than just CSM (and maybe some GL Cultists) who are just AI.

That's why I would be for towning down a bit the cost of CSM tech so :

1- make the chaos armory 150/75, right now it's too expensive for an optional structure, so too much people just skip it.
2- lower the cost of furious charge to 50/50 so that chaos upgrades cost = SM upgrades cost (not a big change here but always nice to have).
3- Make raptors flamers 40-45/10 and upgraded by HW upgrade (+60% DPS, but CSM HB should only get +85% DPS from HW upgrade). To be more wanted the armory should scale well all T1 units.
4- (optional) make chaos plasma T2.5 after that the machine pit is built and lower a bit its DPS (-10% except against inf_med : -15-20%) and make it 40/15 like SM plasma. That would make the machine pit more wanted as it is also too often skipped for the horror/zerk combo. It wouldn't make machine pit tech Imba I think cause it would allow a bit more fire power from CSM but without the upgrades from the armory they wouldn't kick ass anyway. This would also mean that in T3 to have plasma and infiltrate chaos would need both the armory AND the machine pit.
5- Finally make the sac pit 125/50, right now it's a bit too cheap.

Voila these are minor changes but chaos isn't far from balanced and all put together it would make the armory and the machine pit a bit more wanted in T2.

[ImmortalChaos]

I like tygers changes, though I'd still perfer CSM to lose infiltration for HWs.

[Ruonim]

well increse sacrifincal circle cost in power. And give back research of demonic strenght for possesed.

[Spekkio]

The reason few people use CSM tacs in games is because the advantages of teching far outweigh the advantages of upgrading a troop.

You get to t2, you get zerks which come out full-strength. You tech to t3, you get PSM and oblits that come out full strength. This is much more cost-efficient than building 2-3 tac squads and upgrading them throughout the game (not to mention they tend to get owned in t2.

[SubakuGaara]

Finally make the sac pit 125/50, right now it's a bit too cheap
Dangerous though cause right now gKs hit the ground always before my zerkers and for a bit I'm always really vulnerable.

[Hiroshi_Tea]

then that's a GK problem
not a chaos one

[SubakuGaara]

I'm just trying to say that believe it or not with a 35 sec sac circle that costs 100/50, zerkers have been slowed down enough.

[Fixer]

Of course, with Forced Labour that thing can be built in about 10-15 seconds.

It also includes pretty much everything you need tier 2 anyway. Horrors for AV, Chains for killing something with the Zerks.

[SubakuGaara]

Yes its a great building, but that doesn't change the fact that the 35 second build time delays zerks quite a bit.

You said force labor in 10-15 secs. Well, lets see. If I have the 2 builders I built in t1 still alive, they'd be almost dead from earlier force labors. So to get it up in that time, I'd have to build at least one new builder and then force labor him. That price is 60 req not to mention the time required to build that builder...

[ImmortalChaos]

A lot of the time as chaos I find I'll have to get new builders anyways if I'd FLed them- Unless they are hidden or under cover of several LP2s, nothing can really save them from any scout. Ive seen (and practiced) ork players using an infiltrated grot squad to scout, and end up killing heretics with it.

[drcole]

-Inc power cost of sac circle by 50.
-Dec armoury cost to 175/50.
-Bring back PSM research (maybe bundle it with demonic fire) to slow effectiveness of PSM @ t3.

That'd be what I do.
Choas t2 power investment atm is way too low for the standard tech path. Also you are NEVER going to have a balanced CSM t2 option unless hitting the t3 button is less appealing than it is now.

The only thing i would be worried about with the above would be cultist nade strats in t1 for races that can't cause them problems with infiltration. Could always look at a nade cost increase if was a problem to offset the armoury decrease tho.

[Spekkio]

You said force labor in 10-15 secs. Well, lets see. If I have the 2 builders I built in t1 still alive, they'd be almost dead from earlier force labors. So to get it up in that time, I'd have to build at least one new builder and then force labor him. That price is 60 req not to mention the time required to build that builder... Non-issue. Almost every race has purchased more than 2 builders by t2.

[Ferryman]

The problem with CSM is that they dont have any upgrades in the armory, only for aspiring champions. And why is plasma on tier3 anyway? SM have by far more choises in heavy weapons AND upgrades. They have more vehicles too.

I tend to find chaos build order boring too. I remember in WA machine pit required a sacrificial circle. stupid but changed right? Wrong, because now you need sacrificial circle to get berzerkers and that limits your choises. Why go for early vehicle when you cant use berzerkers, raptors or CSM cant survive in tier2.

[holyknight]

I just realized something.
Chaos's plasma rifle is WAY MORE stronger than space marine plasma rifle (saw it on DOW wiki place thingie...)
And also, you can upgrade heavy bolters with the "more heavy bolter" thing or w/e its called.

when you go to Tier 3 and go for plasma chaos space marines, that helps... A LOT

but for raptors... well... yea...
what would be cool is that when you equip one with flame thrower, they will still use flame thrower when other people in the squad are close combatting. Cause that'd drop the morale down, and the enemy will be forced to close combat. (e.g. raptors flying to the firewarriors and putting on range stance to drop the morale down. Uhhh... oops... owned)

[tygereye]

I think that the main problem of CSM is that they aren't flexible at all : only AI. They also happen to be more expensive to field than the zerks+horrors combo.

I think that the most expensive path should also be the safest one. Right now it isn't the case at all. Cause while you are upgrading your CSM you are vulnerable to a quick vehicule tech. Something that won't happen with a zerk tech cause of horrors.

That's why I would add this list of changes to my previous one in this post. I woud call the previous one easy changes and this one heavy and fundamental ones.

1- Take away plasma gun from CSM. I can hear you sream ;). But let me explain why : I am a chaos player and since WA I am saying that plasma gun isn't the weapon that CSM need. I think that what they really need is ML. Why? Cause since WA what CSM need is FLEXIBILTY. If they were the flexible part of chaos army we would see more CSM like subaku and me and a lot of chaos players would like. Flexibilty means that CSM can be AI or AV/AB, what they will be with HBs and ML. CSM don't even need a FoTM weapon without set up time now that they have furious charge in T2 and infiltrate in T3.

2- But what will happen to horrors if CSM get ML? Chaos would be the only race with 2 AV squads? No horrors would be made the "plasma" squad they were in original DoW. Then once you hit T2 you can put down a sac pit and get out of the box zerks supported by out of the box horrors which would be a strong AI force in early T2, but if you have to face vehicules or strong base defenses (like orks and IG) then CSM are what you need. This would also mean that you can delay chaos tech speed by forcing them to build an armory with a vehicule tech. Something that you can't do with the zerk tech cause if you go vehicules you will spend more res than what chaos will spend on horrors.

3- So why only give ML to CSM and not all the weapons they had in the original DoW? First to keep CSM different from SM and also not to interfer with the plasma horrors and the raptor flamers even more since CSM get infiltrate in T3.

This list also happens to be more fluffy as in a 40K chaos army horrors aren't AV at all but CSM can be. And as I said my previous changes have to be added to these ones except the plasma after machine pit of course cause there would be no more plasma for CSM.

Edit : the only thing that might be bad is infiltrated ML with 45 range in T3. I'll post something about that later as I don't have time to think about it right now.

[Spekkio]

Your idea doesn't fix the main reason why CSM tacs are never used right now: it is more cost and time efficient to tech to a unit that comes out at full strength rather than upgrade tacs.

With your changes, we would still see the same raptor ---> CL ---> t2 bo, except now it would come with zerks backed up with horrors. Tacs would only be built to get an AV platform out. Simply put, it will still be more cost and time effective to tech rather than to upgrade units.

The only way that you will see tacs used more often is if the t2 and t3 chaos units need upgrades to reach 100% effectiveness.

[tygereye]

Well at least you'll see them in T2.

But I have to say that I don't agree with you. Cause with my changes if you go for a zerks/horrors BO and suddenly vehicules show up by the time you get an armory and all upgrades to make CSM a competitive AV platform (or begin to tech to T3) it could really be too late. Not to mention that it would end costing you more than just doing an armory build cause you would have spent res in a sac pit, zerks and horrors which won't help you against vehicules. While if you already have upgraded CSM, you only have to buy them ML and voila.

Then zerks and horrors would be cheap support (no upgrade needed) to the CSM rather than CSM being expensive support (and so rarely seen) to horrors and zerks.

[Spekkio]

Yes but the argument you posted is exactly why SM players hate tacs + ML for av: it's insanely expensive and slow to field the av unit. The thing with SM tacs though is that they scale infinitely better than CSM tacs in t2.

You need units that can respond to what the enemy is doing. If you build a CSM tac squad in t1 + armory just because your opponent MIGHT use vehicles, it's an insane amount of req + power pissed away. Then when they go for a quick t3 instead you get owned.

What really needs to happen is that CSM tacs need to scale better into t2 and/or the cost of a zerk squad needs to go up. Currently, CSM tacs can pack a punch in t1.5, but as you said the investment you make in them leaves you susceptible to vehicles. The other problem is that once any other race reaches t2, CSM tacs get vastly outperformed for cost (although in t3 they become viable again). The only t2 research they get is PtW, which is a good piece of research but it's not enough. The daemon claw upgrade to PSM needs to be restored. Only then will you see tacs being used more often.

[tygereye]

I like the furious charge upgrade also (especially against slow crons ;) ) and if CSM get their HW upgrade in T1.5 rather than in T2 it's a an advantage for CSM. No definitely the only thing that bothers with CSM apart from being a bit too much costy is their lack of AV.

I also suggested in a previous post that raptors flamers should get upgraded by HW upgrade so that they become a good support to CSM and that armory cost should get lowered.

I also want to make the zerk tech more risky than what it is now, so chaos would still be able to fast tech but would be more vulnerable doing so.

About ML being sucky AV I think that the only problem with them is that they are a bit overpriced for what they do. Apart from that they are a great AV weapon with huge range, high dmgs and disruption that can be equiped in any tac squad.

About the PSM upgrade in DC1.1 we had it but we didn't see more CSM than now : the only thing that it did was delaying a bit PSM. But the zerk tech was still the best.

Edit : concerning infiltrated ML in T3 maybe it's ok cause chaos ML don't get the help of skull probes and ASM melta bomb like what SM do. It has to be tested though. Maybe that if it is imba chaos ML could be just a bit more damaging than SM one but would get a bit smaller range to be easier to detect.

[Ferryman]

I think CSM need plasma in t2 not ML. Horrors are for this job, deep striking "missile launchers" with no disrupt. Raptors have flamers, cultists have GLs, predators and oblits lascannons.

So basically chaos has all HW available in the game. The difference is not in a single unit. What they need is plasma in tier2.

[wogan121]

Chaos tier 2 is grand. Maybe you should actually stay in it for a bit and then you will see how good it is. Chaos tier2 > SM tier2 if they both got to tier2 around the same time. Although a heavily invested SM tier2 can match nearly anybodies tier3.

[Spekkio]

I'm not saying that chaos t2 is bad. I'm saying that CSM tacs in t2 are bad. Zerks, sorcerer, defilers, predators that scale are all great.

[SubakuGaara]

tacs are ok. i'd give them a b- in t2 and an A+ in t3.



Chaos tier2 > SM tier2 if they both got to tier2 around the same time.

No. Think dreads, plasma tacs, grey knights, 3 heroes. 3 hero+gk+dreads of any variety build is still very very tough as heros are very flexible units and dreads... well they're dreads....

[DoomBringer]

Id love to see chaos missile launchers back, but not to out shine horrors or space tacs, they were such a cool looking gun, they even made a different model, why did they get rid of them?

[Chris]

I'm not saying that chaos t2 is bad. I'm saying that CSM tacs in t2 are bad. Zerks, sorcerer, defilers, predators that scale are all great.


CSM with 4 HBs using berzerk fury can beat SM with 5 HBs depending on how quickly the HB marines die. Sometimes one side gets owned, most of the time both sides get badly beaten and it's a close fight.