[DC 1.2] HWT need a buff/change

[gapottberg]

Background:

The addition of HWT to IG in DC was a welcome sight to many players. Thier use however was limited and frustrating due to targeting bugs. Relic did a good job of fixing that, but IG HWT are still largely being ignored in competitive play.

My Suggested changes:

1. Move HB to T1 after a tac & IC are up, reduce building damage, remove cover bonus while unentrenched, nerf down into an effective counter to T1/2 elite infantry without making it OP, just do it!

2. Make entrenched HWT unable to be engaged in CC like eldar platforms.

3. Keep lascannon in T2 as an upgrade but possibly change their damage/rate of fire to more closely match that of a sentinals.

Rational for my suggestions:

1. IG really need a late T1 answer to elite troops like SM tacs and DR. They currently cant get enough firepower/mass to effectivly deal with these. Countless evidence has been provided in these forums to support that claim. This would also speed up how quickly IG could get effective AV on the scene in T2, which is currently too slow in many players opinions.

2. IG suffer horribly at the hand of CC specialists, having none of their own until T3 ogryns (the CS is a hero so i dont consider it to be in the same catagory). Having a unit that could effectivly nullify CC specialist, but that would not be OP due to the effective ranged options all other armies have at their disposal is a possible way to remedy this.

3. The current LC HWT is rarely used due to the much more effctive vehicle damage output of sentinals which become available at about the same time. Making HB T1, and putting the LC more in line with sents damage would make more people consider them since you could get them out quicker than sents in a pinch. When units overlap in expertise, their timing becomes important in a players desicion to deploy them. Making the LC less effective than a sent when their timing is the same discourages their use. Reducing the time it takes to feild them give them a situational expertise that cant be ignored, ecspeically when early AI vehicles hit the scene and sents are 1-2 min away.


Conclusion:

Feel free to agree/disagree or add your own thoughts, but this IMO could potentially solve many of IG ealry woes through T1/2 while encouraging more HWT use in competitive play beyond the Autocannon in T3 (which i feel is fairly well balanced).

[Azmodael]

HWT tier 1. No no no no no and NO. IG"s only abusive tactic with turreting the entrance to your base is boring enough, adding a long ranged unit with Heavy-high armor and permanent cover bonus is a must NO.

Aren't they already immune to CC?

lascannon do suck. Buffing damage a little seems reasonable.

[gapottberg]

HWT T1 yes, yes yes and yes! They wouldnt be available until late T1.5, their cost both req/power and pop cap prohibit them from being spammed, a nerf to building damage would eliminate the base camp threat. And by the time they hit the field you should have enough ranged fire power to stop them before they ever get close to your base. You could even remove the cover bonus while unentrenched if you really felt it was OP. That would make it a trecherous trip on foot for a slow moving unit.

They currently get a damage deduction from melee damage, but can still be swarmed by 10-20 troops at a time while entrenched which basicly leads to no effective protection at all.

Edit: Heavy High armour is a concern, but when you factor in their relativly low HP and the fact they can eaily be focus fired to death in short order by most ranged T1 elites, its not OP. Ecspecially if you removed the cover bonus while unentrenched. I will add that to my OP, I think thats a legitimate nerf that would need to happen should the change be made.

[Azmodael]

You seriously beleive it, don't you?

How the hell am i supposed to kill 600 HP of Heavy_high armor in tier 1 (oh, with cover bonuses it is 1200 hp in reality!), that on top of that shoots back at me from 40 range with insane dps?

[4Servant]

HWT in t1 is the worst idea in the history of DC imo. You ever seen the damage those things do?
Imo the lass canon need a buff and they need a hard cap of t2 thats it imo HWT function just fine, with a (small)buff on the laser cannon and a hardcap of 2 to prevent HWT camping it should be fine.

[gapottberg]

Wow, 600 hp of Heavy high? I really didnt think it was that high based on how quickly they die even with their cover bonus to moderate ranged fire.

[Troubleshooter]

I would like a TT version of a las cannon... low ROF but WTF kills anything it hits.

So give it a 4 second Reload, but 200 DPS (800 per hit) on all targets with 80% accuracy or something similar.

I would never buy a tier 1 HWT anyway... high cost for a single unit with no mobility. Unless HWT have a sizable force to protect them, they are meat.

Then again, if you spent 500 req on 2 of them in t1.5, there would be some potential for major imba too :p

Also, IG mirrors would totally suck ass.

[GRIM Ripper]

only thing i would change is have them scale to 1000 HP after body armor is researched.

as far as the lascannon... how does it suck exactly? its got like 55-60 range, and over 100dps (almost the same as a sentinel). youve already got the sent for slow rof with big chunks... in fact the quick rof is actually better for lesser vehicles like speeders, vypers, trukks, etc where as a sent can leave it alive at like 50 HPs and have to wait 5 more seconds to finish it off.

[Fannin]

Well, SOMETHING needs done to help IG tier 1.

[Chris]

as far as the lascannon... how does it suck exactly? its got like 55-60 range, and over 100dps (almost the same as a sentinel). youve already got the sent for slow rof with big chunks... in fact the quick rof is actually better for lesser vehicles like speeders, vypers, trukks, etc where as a sent can leave it alive at like 50 HPs and have to wait 5 more seconds to finish it off.

It's all good on paper but unless you're on a map where the enemy MUST hit you head on then the lack of mobility literally kills the HWT. In many situations I find have to uproot my HWs after only a few seconds of fire because I get flanked and the rest of my army isn't up to the task of providing a big enough speed bump. I don't think I've seen a single lascannon HWT used by Servant, Serberus, Capn or Velan. Ever.

[gapottberg]

Azmodael: You seriously beleive it, don't you?


Yes I do, it may take more tweaking than I originally thought, but I really think it is a viable option for solving mutliple problems for IG.



Troubleshooter: I would like a TT version of a las cannon...


I really wish relic would take note of how many people have said the same thing about LCs in general. A weapon with a high damage output but a low rate of fire is not going to be OP vs. infantry beacause it would take too long to kill a whole squad, allowing them to move out of range or into CC or into cover, or so many other things.

[Ruonim]

Well hwt cuts all infanty units t1-t2 so fast and you want it really in t1 ?: D

[Affenkot]

i think the most important change for the HWT is the dig out time & "shit outta here"-ability like we supposed in the "HWT setup time" thread below.

[Kyoti]

Id change the HWT button click setup to an automatic setup while not in motion. I hate it when I forget about them HWTs for just a few seconds and bam there dead, and im out 250/50 resources. Its VERY agrivating, and happens alot.
Realisticly though, it needs a price reduction, and benefit from GM upgrades.

[Affenkot]

at least for HP when they`r un-entrenched.

[Snake1311]

HWT in T1 the way theya re now is a TERRIBLE idea...ig already have the most coste effective turrets and commander armour builders, turret + hwt semi-rush is not something i want to see.
The ONLY way to justify HWTs in T1 is toreduce their health, range and damage and make them upgradeable to their current state in T2...maybe form the same upgrades that affect guard, if we're feeling generous - the guard already have specified health and range upgrades,and weapon spec could upgrade the damage

[gapottberg]

HWT in T1 the way theya re now is a TERRIBLE idea

I totally agree, there definitly needs to be some nerfage to justify them in T1, but it is doable. Your ideas of making the GM global buff give them back thier HP/range/dam in T2 is also a great way to make sure its not swung too far the other way like so many changes we seem to face.

[Integrity]

Just had a totally random idea...

What if you could tell your HWTs to just book, and they'd leave behind the weapons and have their morale break and be reset to the infantry? Next time they were entrenched, they'd just be two dudes holding lasguns behind sandbags - they'd have to be reupgraded.

?

[D-coy]

How about increasing the range of bunker guns instead? That way you could rely on them without making imba units. Just an idea.

And I totally agree that the Lascannon needs a damage buff. It takes 2 mins to take down an LP2 with that (I don't know its vehicle damage though).

Cheers

[Briarus]

they'd just be two dudes holding lasguns behind sandbags
that would be a lot of scripting.

you could always just make them auto break when they pulled up stakes making them faster. or just make them faster.

[War-Reborn]

Well HWT are ok but not that great, problem is there lack of mobilty combined with low hp (especially at tier 3), there easy to avoid if you dont have the forces to over run them, an easy to overun when you do, i'd like to see either a 200/300hp increase at tier 3, or a rapid retreat button that would allow you to do a quick pullback, it could be a rechargeable ability so you would'nt be able to use it every 15 seconds, but it would at least allow you a fair chance to get a HWT out of trouble.

The lack of the abilty to make an effective retreat is a big downside to HWT ussage, since lot's of battle involve a lot of back an forth action accross the map, an back an forth does'nt suit HWT at all

[gapottberg]

4servant: HWT in t1 is the worst idea in the history of DC imo


No, I would have to say letting WS, a T3 elite that's comprable to all others, being capable of fielding 3 vs. the 1/2 all other armies get and having it fill only 2 pop cap where other armies similar units fill 3 is much worse...but that's just my opinion.

Should HWT be in T1? I think we can all agree that in order to do it changes would need to be made. The thing is most of the changes that have been suggested are relativly minor and would not require a lot of coding. Things like the "drop that heavy shit and run" ability while funny to imagine, probably would require more work than a patch is going to include.

[weirwood]

It's a bit off-tangent, but does anyone know if it'd be possible to make unentrenched HWTs attachable?

[magicalcarpet]

Is the HWT de-selecting due to an armour change?

If so, I don't think too many people would be averse to letting the un-entrenched HWT have entrenched armour, people will still use it in the exact same way.

It just makes it easier to micro. That, and fix the Autocannon 180.

Actually, a buildtime decrease would be good too :P

[Fannin]

I'd say Gattopberg is right on the money there.

[fs_xyz]

I prefer a game engine improvement to make deploy/undeploy command as queue able command.
For HWT itself... reduce the price and training time. Too long, too pricy, and only able to upgrade weapon when deployed.

[Hiroshi_Tea]

let it reinforce health
rather than units
every reinforce clicky for 15req
repairs the motha by 50 health
the reinforce time would be nice at 7
same as guardsmen

[retroholyfire]

One thing I find really annoying with HWt is when they delpoy then slide across the ground to somewhere else. HWT are only really good on a secure front. If IG are attacking HWT arn't that great due to the fact it will take them quite a while befor ethey can have an effect on the offensive and if it goes wrong they are going to be the last to run.

[The Boz]

Hmm... Requisition Medkit... an awesome concept. Not only do I think it should apply to HWTs, but it should, in one form or another, apply to all commander type solo units.

[Hiroshi_Tea]

or just the IG ones
;)

[Pellucid]

How about increasing the range of bunker guns instead? That way you could rely on them without making imba units. Just an idea.Why is that every non-IG player's stock solution to fixing IG? "MAKE BUNKER GUNS BETTER! That will give IG the illusion of a buff when in reality all it will do is allow them to defend themselves better while still losing map control!"

The only buff I want to see to the HWT is to make the heavy bolter HWT do a lot more morale damage.

[wayfarer]

Simple because it seems not like a big chance and it seems that it would hurt no one.

But in fact IG buildings are the only thing that I think is reliable, no moral, good cover against any heavy fire and quite cheap.

For the HWT I think a Pop Cap reduction, cap of three. Small cost reduction and a damage buff for the lascanon upgrade to make it usefull might be in order. Else I love them.

[Pellucid]

For the HWT I think a Pop Cap reduction, cap of three. Small cost reduction and a damage buff for the lascanon upgrade to make it usefull might be in order. Else I love them.Um, HWT costs 2 now. That would be an increase in pop cap.

[Hiroshi_Tea]

i think he means one pop per HWT
and a total limit of three of em

[wayfarer]

Exactly I meant pop cap 1 and a hardcap of three. Else you might open a big door for abuse if you reduce the cost. Serious 2 teams can almost cover the whole width of a small map with their range. :spartaaa:

[Hiroshi_Tea]

i actually wouldn't mind that
since you hardly see more than 3 HWT anyways

[phoenixzs]

NOooo absolutely no to hard cap.I use more then three and I am proud of it.

As I said on another thread I think HWT and vehicles other than sentinel and basillisk should give light cover for a small area around them selves for infantry(That means two hellhounds dont cover each other)

An obvious change could be that they either should require ony requisition and no power or should significantly have build time reduction.

[wayfarer]

Exactly else it would look to much like a buff. :nyah:
Hell I wouldn't mind a limit of 2 as I can afford (though req and time delay )mostly 1.

[Pellucid]

The last thing we need as IG is another hardcapped infantry unit.

[fs_xyz]

Ideas for HWT :
#1
Add upgrade that allow deployed mode get more damage reduction, call it sandbag improvement. ( giving deployed HWT a better wall )
Add upgrade that make melee unit attacking deployed HWT got knockbacked by mine explotion.
Call it, mine protection. ( giving deployed HWT a mine shield )
#2
.... a reworked unit. No more sandbags.
It just like a ghretchin, 2 person as 1 unit. No FOTM, they won't have standard lasgun.
During standing, they will auto deploying weapon. An animation about preparing the big gun. ( no sandbags )
This animation will take about the same time as the current deploying animation. ( give a bar as indication like those SM with HB )
Once finished, they will become a deployed weapon.
They can move away instantly when your order them to move, since HWT won't change into another unit.

Reason to my #1 is how hard to keep HWT alive with long training and expensive price
Reason to my #2 is.... bugs that keep haunting current HWT, rotating bug, deploying bug, slideing bug, plus the amount of time you have to wait to make them MOVE. ( babysitting )

Won't propose #2 if there is a way for engine upgrade that allow queue order for deploying/undeploy mode.

[BurnedToast]

Heh, fill the sandbags with rockcrete instead of sand for the upgrade :o

Feel bad for the guy carrying them though... he already has to carry the big gun, the ammo, the sandbags, and the other trooper in that backpack. filling it with rockcrete would make him weep.

[Slow_Runner]

I think a few facts wouldn't go amiss here.


HEAVY WEAPON TEAM: 250/50/2. 45 sec. 650 hp of infantry_med (infantry_heavy_high when entrenched). Takes only 50% of ranged damage and 60% of melee damage done to it while entrenched.
- Lascannon upgrade for 50/50 and 30 seconds or Autocannon upgrade for 75/30 and 40 seconds.

Now, 45 second buildtime is long. Add 30 more seconds to get the Lascannon and you're looking at a minute 15 seconds to get yourself a working AV gun.

Personally I'd start fixing the HWT by cutting the buildtime by 5-10 seconds and dropping 10 seconds on both of the weapon upgrades.

[The_Guardman]

I agree with Slow_Runner, HWT work once it hit the field, the problem lies in making it! It already have a huge cost, and often it arrive just after the enemy vehicles... And you have to upgrade it :(

As secondary note, see my HWT Rotation speed/ placement tread. (http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=141910)

[Hiroshi_Tea]

those 2 nailed it pretty much
also
since it's just one frikken expensive unit
with frikken low hp
i should have a boosted healing ability

[-=Armageddon=-]

A lasgun dmg increase and a creation time decrease is best suited I think, not a real buff for them.

[Pellucid]

You think changing the HWT's rotation speed would make it imba? Personally, I think the HWT is underpowered as it stands; it doesn't deal nearly the amount of damage that other race's tier 2 2 pop infantries do. Look at Fire Warriors; comparable range, way more damage. If the HWT was a bit tougher I could understand this.

[fuggles]

I thought the LC issue was that the AC was better?

Why not make all the upgrades available at the start, for varying costs, but HB>infantry(maybe movement speed ala platform too?) AC>Heavy infantry LC>Vehicle

Nothing is outperformed then.

[Pellucid]

It's like that to an extent now, but the AC will always be better than the HB thanks to the range increase, which is why I suggested a sizable morale damage boost to the HB to give it a defined role. The LC really just doesn't do enough damage and should get a tiny buff; I also think it would be reasonable to give it acceptable (as in at least as much as an unupgraded tier 1 pack of Guardsman with lasguns) damage against infantry, especially heavy infantry, since an immobile AV option is just about the worst AV concept I can think of.

[Hiroshi_Tea]

HB should be plain anti infantry (morale would fit here)
AC should be anti heavy infantry and semi decent building and veh damage
LC should be anti vehicles and buildings with crap everthing else
that's my take on these weapons and their functions

[Affenkot]

only detrench faster and "hell outta here" skill like FoF for a few seconds with cooldown ( ~60 secs ).

[DukeRustfield]

I'd be happy if they rotated faster. It's like Grandpa is manning the machine gun. A bunch of ASM drop in and they're like, "maybe.......we......should......face........that...........way......."

[blackpaladin05]

I just want the rotation fixed, we can talk buffs later.

It's all
Loader: "Hey, maybe the Chaos marines might charge us from that ramp behind us, just like they did last time! See their twitching corpses there?"
Gunner: "I'm in charge of aiming here! We're facing THIS WAY!"
Loader: "You mean this... wall?"
Gunner: "Raptors could be jumping over it any minute! We'll get 'em when they do!"
Loader: *checking minimap* "That's off the map! Nothing's coming from there, dude!"
Gunner: "You shut the hell up or I'm telling the Commissar!"
Loader: *whimper*

[Maktaka]

Since no-one seems to have mentioned it during the thread yet (apologies if I missed it).

Cover bonuses only apply to the entrenched HWT. Entrenched HWTs cannot be engaged in melee already.

[DukeRustfield]

Uh, did you just say that entrenched HWT can't be CC'd? Cuz of course they can.

[The_Guardman]

Hu? Tell it to the 'zerkers. You would be doing us a great favour.
Anything can be CC engaged. Something (Entrenched units, vehicles, buildings) simply stand and shoot instead that switching modality and reply with knives. But belive me, the entrenched HWT can be engaged, and it also have a different defensive value vs. CC.
Unentrenched will switch to CC as normal IGs do.

[philgreg]

What he means is that HWTs can be engaged in melee, but they continue to shoot normally. Do they get any penalty for being in melee?

[Hiroshi_Tea]

if it follows like in vanilla DoW
i think it means a reallly big accuracy reduction
(with the f2 stance and all)

[Affenkot]

who need CC hwt ??? OMG you are talking about things that are senseless.
HWT has a stupid mechanism. its too unflexible. point.
change needed...
proposals:
-faster rotation speed
-fuck outta here ability
-cheaper
-more hp
-faster building time
chose one of these options and a lot people are happy - end of story.

even i dont understand all the talking the other IG balance Threads.
all have to agree in some SIMPLE little changes and shut up after that!
relic should react and test some things .... i bet my ass a lot of highranked people would spend their freetime for a better balance.
dont argue over month - its senseless as stupid because nothing will happen...
absolute wasting of time and brain!

I have quit Dow:DC it is a stupid boring mechanism for ME. i love IG - IG sucks ...
i waited for over a year that relic solve that problem but they didnt.
Further i dont listen to that top competetive players that say IG is well balanced.
ridiculous, i watched every replay they upped and i can say they often won
cause theit opponent played stupid. everyone`s played IG knows their weekness
and can beat them with other races.
OK, fine -
find a solution for yourself but please stop hoping that any of your wishes for IG got satisfied someday.
they just keep you playing.....

[The Boz]

Here's a neat little change for the HWTs I just conjoured up:

The HWT team is a single Heavy_Medium 650 hp trooper that costs 160/20, and is built in 25 seconds. His entrenching buffs his armor to Heavy_High, and applies the other bonuses, and doubles his HP and morale regen rate. While Entrenched, he has the "Redeployment" and "Rapid Redeployment" ability. "Redeployment" takes 3 seconds, but "Rapid Redeployment" instandly detrenches the HWT, and increases the HWT speed by 20% for 6 seconds. He has three Entrench abilities:
Heavy Bolter Deployment
Entrenches in 3 seconds, costs 15/10 the first time he uses the ability, after using "Rapid Redeployment", or after using any of the other Entrench abilities.
Lascannon Deployment
Entrenches in 5 seconds, costs 30/20 the first time he uses the ability, after using "Rapid Redeployment", or after using any of the other Entrench abilities.
Autocannon Deployment
Entrenches in 4 seconds, costs 40/15 the first time he uses the ability, after using "Rapid Redeployment", or after using any of the other Entrench abilities. Requires T3.

There, faster to the field, costs roughly the same, and is more flexible.

[Chris]

Just speed up the rotation and save all these new abilities for the suggestion box, seriously.

The only 'buff' I see that the HWT needs is being either slightly cheaper OR build slightly faster. If either of these buffs were introduced (I'd personally prefer decreased build speed) then you might actually see lascannons being used to respond to vehicles instead of sentinels or mass plasma. The whole point of infantry based AV is that it's supposed to be available fast enough to hold the line vs early vehicle threats but not totally stop vehicle production before it starts. Currently the lascannon HWT takes far, far too long to hit the field to be of any use vs early vehicle threats. You're much better off just bunkering down until you have sentinels.

[Maktaka]

That's one of the major weaknesses of IG right there. No early AV. Every other race can get their AV on the field far sooner than IG, often by simply upgrading existing units. Chaos comes close (need a Sacrificial Circle plus build Horrors), but once complete they at least can deepstrike exactly where needed ready to go. HWTs, once built, must be deployed and immobile for 20s to get their lascannon.

HWTs need a long build time for the power of their heavy bolter, but the lascannon needs to be sooner. How about swapping the lascannon and heavy bolter. So it starts with a lascannon and hits the field sooner as AV, but the heavy bolter is still available for powerful anti-infantry if needed to supplement the GM. Thoughts?

[The_Guardman]

I myself am for the faster buildtime. And having LC from start, swapped for free in like 15-20 sec to HB would be a candy. IG have a decent AI anyway, no point in having a (ever if exeptionally good as the HWT) extra T2 AI.

[victariand]

My main issue remains the hwt's survivability. They are swiftly and easily dispatched. They lack the mobility required for the rest of the guard's forces. Furthermore, now that a mechonized command is required to make it to t3, its more cost effective to simply go for sentinels. To be honest, I've been watching replays and I've yet to find a decent example where hwts have made a big difference. One is much better off speeding deployment of a full compliment of special weapons and upgrades for the infantry.

Id suggest a few changes
- increase hp to make it more resistant to direct damage.
- either reduce deployment speed, or increase running speed.
-greatly decrease time it takes to switch weapons to speed deployment.

[kultz]

I may not be some god-like player of IG, nor even an experienced veteran of many long nights of battle, but I am quite certain I play IG enough to notice the HWT needs some changes.

Here's an example scenario.

-I'd meet vehicles on field that my lasguns barely tickle. Walkers ploughing through Guardsmen. My command squad desperately scraping at the vehicle paint to try and bring it down.

What do I do?

-Where's my HWT? Still building, of course, at about 45%. Oh look, here it is, with a heavy bolter. That'll help. I'd spend some more precious moments upgrading it.

It ain't expensive per se. But don't forget, time is money: Every 1-2 seconds I spend upgrading and building translates to another 1-2 seconds of vehicles eating my guardsmen alive. How much would that be?

-Finally, I bring out my heavy weapons team, but what happens? Jump troops hop along and start slashing away at them. Poor saps rooted to the floor by them bags. A few seconds, and I lost my investment.

What can I do? Pull 'em up? Sure, I'll spend a good few seconds not shooting at the immobilized walker, and make my HWT die about 3 feet further from the battle.

Result? I still have a darned walker going into my front yard.

Then again, that's just my opinion, it couldn't be possible that this happens to anyone else...Then it'd just be unfair.

[SubakuGaara]

Drop price to 200 req. Make pop cap 1. hard cap at 4. Increase rotation speed. Then they'll be fine.

[Pellucid]

Agree with Subaku for once.

[magicalcarpet]

I really think that's a bit of an overbuff.

Most of all it needs quicker rotation and buildtime decrease to 30/35 seconds.

[Pellucid]

The only real buff there is not making it take up far more cap than it's worth (a HWT does nowhere close to the damage of a GM squad; the extra range does NOT warrant an even cap). I'd prefer a build time decrease to a cost decrease though.

[phoenixzs]

-The rotation is a big disadvantage but maybe its ment to be so.

-The HWT takes too much time to build and arm.A MUST is decrease in time.

-HWT have very low survivability.Maybe they should have building armor when entrenched end/or high hitpoints end/or repairable by techpriest(I personally think they should be able to be healed after I have invested 300 req+ 75 energy with upgrades.)

-Athough I like the animations firing rate the lascannon could fire less and deal more damage.

-Cost reduce can be but I suggest it should only cost requisition not energy altogether.So IG player can actually use that 50 energy for vehicle deployement.

Alternative suggestion:HWT can give cover bonuses around a small area.


By the way I expect 3 Autocanons to nearly obliterate Heavyarmor squads but this isnt just the case.3Autocanons are expensive and they are anti-heavyinfantry so why the hell arent they stoping squads that are coming?(Can somebody confirm this by statics or was it a just bad day of me?)

[Gaizokubanou]

What if HWT can buy itself some landmines to lay on top of it?

[Pellucid]

-The rotation is a big disadvantage but maybe its ment to be so.I would accept that if it weren't for the fact that the HWT defaults to its original facing, which is incorrect half the time. Did you ever notice how, even after you finally get the facing correct, the autocannon upgrade inverts it? Damn annoying.

I like the idea of the HWT being able to deploy its own mines. That would be really nice.

[Hiroshi_Tea]

what's the rotation speed of the Broadside?
the two units are nearly synonymous in useage
(though the HWT is much weaker in nearly all aspects)
if the rotation speed of the HWT is lower than the broadside
than something is seriously amiss

[Gaizokubanou]

But HWT and BS can't be compared word to word, number to number. If you want HWT to have exactly identical rotation speed as BS, give BS HWT range, lower the health to that of HWT, and give same kinds of weapons. Basically they were not meant to be identical, so while HWT's rotation speed should be tweaked, it shouldn't be based on BS.

[Hiroshi_Tea]

i'm not asking for them to become identical
just asking to tone the fairness
just the turning rate
i'm not asking to buff up HWT damage to 200 DPS
or to give them 2500 HP of heavy high
just asking for equal turning radii
if the BS are faster

[peturabo]

Imo the only thing wrong with the HWT is its build time, gawd it takes farken ages.

[Gaizokubanou]

i'm not asking for them to become identical
just asking to tone the fairness
just the turning rate
i'm not asking to buff up HWT damage to 200 DPS
or to give them 2500 HP of heavy high
just asking for equal turning radii
if the BS are faster


Why should their rotation speed be the same if everything else about them are different?

[Hiroshi_Tea]

just to add some fairness
HWT are lacking in some utility at the moment
because if they deploy wrong
it takes ages for them to turn around
and start shooting again
same goes for some vehicles that are fast
or if they move past the HWT
the HWT just can't track fast enough
and since it's a tab bit weaker in terms of damage
and poorer accuracy
it needs all the shots that it can get

[Gaizokubanou]

Ok, I think that's more convincing than "faster speed cause BS is faster" (I just wanted to say that HWT's turning speed shouldn't change for sake of being on same speed as BS').

[Hiroshi_Tea]

let's call it a truce sandwich then
:)

even i'm not sure whether BS turn faster though
it seems like they do
but that could just be the
"grass is greener on the other side" mentality

[fs_xyz]

If relic bother enough to upgrade DOW engine so HWT and BSide can queue deploy command, it will be a huge upgrade on these "need to deploy to be effective" unit...

[gapottberg]

:rant:
Ok, I am more convinced than ever that the LC is utter crap! I was playing around yesterday against the AI, trying some new BOs, and had a lascannon firing on some defilers. It litterally took over 1 min of continuous fire to bring one off those things down! Even with CoTM there is no way a human player would have let that happen. They would have targeted my LC with their defiler and killed it in about 3 sec since it was the only thing on the feild that could even harm it. I would need like 4 CoTM in a row to bring it down safely, and thats just not fesiable in most games.

HWT were suppose to fill the gaps for IG lack of AV in T2, and they fail miserably. I want my fleshy CoTM back with mass plasma, at least it was powerful enough to bring down targets before they could obliterate my squads. The LC takes waaaay too long to get out, and the new CoTM is worthless really because you need a shit load of AV to drop any T2 V besides LS and IG vehicles. It takes too long to mass sents, and it fills your V pop to boot. HWT take forever to produce and even longer to upgrade, plus their cost is a huge hit for something that dies quickly under fire and cant effectivly be retreated or chase after damaged enemy units to finish them off. Oh, and the rotation bug really pisses me off to!:soul:

On a more positive note, thank you relic for allowing me to actually target said defilers. :up:

Before the patch I would proably never have know how bad the LC was becuase Im never lucky enough to get it to fire at what I want. I always have to auto target it myself as it is.:rolleyes:

Edit: after looking in the wiki, it appears the LC deals with the same piss poor accuracy as the HH. It deals nice damage when it hits, but with only 50% accuracy I was likely getting strings of misses during my barrage on the defiler which is why it took so long to kill.

[Hiroshi_Tea]

turning radii can be increased
and 80% accuracy seems fine
that's the magic number for AV weapons
including the sentinel
and +/- 5% for other Infantry AV weapons

[Gaizokubanou]

even i'm not sure whether BS turn faster though
it seems like they do


They probably do. I think BS have instant turning speed.

[Kyoti]

Im in favor of increasing the HWT accuracy. Im in favor of increasing the turn speed aswell. :)
AV isn't an issue really with me. Sentinels are vicious in T2/T3. Only downside to Sentinels is the Building_high and vehicle_high armor.

[NecronGuard]

Doit IG have a hard time againts necrons,most of the problem is that the flayed ones are in tier 1.5 and thats a huge disavantage for the IG

[Kyoti]

Doit IG have a hard time againts necrons,most of the problem is that the flayed ones are in tier 1.5 and thats a huge disavantage for the IG

Thats where the Hell Hound does wonders, vs massing necrons. Immortals however kill Hell hounds very fast and at great range.:crash: Bunkering and turrets are the best counters ive seen so far. GLs do good to but cost alot (IMO) in tier1.

[kultz]

Sentinels don't actually work that well.

On paper, they'd be fast, affordable, and vicious tank-hunters. In real combat, they're power investment running on chicken legs that can't bring down enough vehicles before dying from a relatively strong wind.

[Chris]

Bah sentinels are some of the most cost effective AV in the game, the only issue with them is that 15% accuracy while moving makes them useless at chasing down wounded vehicles. You have to try and kill the vehicle quickly before the other player realises the trouble he's in. I've had a chaos predator escape a pair of sentinels for over a minute because they couldn't hit the broad side of a barn, however those sentinels can turn a predator to scrap if it sits still.

[Hiroshi_Tea]

i swear that sents are the best
but yeah
the FotMP really does put a damper on their game
and also the fact that a light breeze can knock them over

[fs_xyz]

I wish Sentinel can be a good saboteur unit for IG, like running around taking down LP, fast, and decap...
Sure it can decap and fast, but unable to destroy LP fast enough... or just into enemy base take out a gen and get out...

[Pellucid]

Maybe sentinel FOTM should be more like Dreads or Wraithlords.

[Wesley84]

Or half a second of setup time.

[magicalcarpet]

I was actually thinking kinda like that, take away fotm and give it no set-up time.

I'm sick of it wasting the first shot because it's still 'moving.'

Though I don't like how it's such utter trash at AB.

[Hiroshi_Tea]

cause the relic gods said so

back to the HWT.
who thinks that it should have more health?
i know i do!

[Vytae]

The problem with HWT is not any of their combat modifiers. The las kinda sucks,but 2-3 las cannons will rip shit up fairly quick.

The ONLY thing i would change about HWT is their build speed (unsure what it is at the moment,seems like forever) and minor cost tweaking.

Sure one HWT is fairly useless,but 3-4 spread out and covering eachother (and leapfrogging with GM support) they will again rape face. Problem is by the time you get 4 HWT your foe is in t3 or already smashing your base.

A minor cost decrease (200-225 instead of 250) and a drastic build time decrease (1/3rd to hlf even) and you will be able to get them out fast enough to make a difference and in numbers so your army doent unravel when a single one dies.

[fs_xyz]

*raise hand for more health*
*raise hand for cheaper price*
*raise hand for faster build time*

[Pellucid]

I raise my hand for faster build time and HP and damage scaling when the Weapon Specialization research is completed.

[Gaizokubanou]

I agree with lower buildtime and maybe cost tweaks. Some scaling would be nice, but nothing drastic. Just something really small.

[Jaigen]

One question does hwt benefit from excecute. i have been looking at the damage value's between broadsides and hwt and while broadsides are slightly more expensive and slow they blow hwt out of the water with hp (more then half in heavy high armor) and dps.

If this is not the case than they need at least a buff to their hp.

[The_Guardman]

HWT do not benefit from execute, nor it should. Faster buildtime, slight cost tweak and HP scaling (maybe a small scaling from damage upgrade too) is the way to go imho.
Expecially a Vehicle_high damage buff for LC.

[Kyoti]

Yes to HP increase. Yes to faster build time. Yes to being cheaper. FASTER BUILD TIME IS NEEDED.

OR

Yes to faster build time. FASTER BUILD TIME IS NEEDED.
How about HWTs get infiltration. A simple upgrade from the Tactica that gives HWTs Camoflage Covering.
Stupid idea? Good idea?

[Pellucid]

That's actually kind of a cool idea, but if something like that happened that would necessarily have to be the only buff.

[phoenixzs]

Probably not mentioned before but autocanon should deal more damage.

Okay extra range is good but not everything.Since they take long long long long to build and a huge investment,they better kill some high tier units.

Autocanons are tier3 but they cannot compete with other tier3 squads and which shouldnt be the case.Berzekers banshees other melle stuff keep on coming towards me even though I have 2-3 autocanons shooting at them.I dont know you but I dont feel they get enough casualities from that stuff.In the end I have 500 requisition lying dead and I have lost the game.They should be an anti-heavy infantry denial stuff dont they?

Relic this is to you:I bought the Winter assault for a "playable" race not a side kick race I want my money back if you dont do any changes.

[Hiroshi_Tea]

we really got gimped with the HWT
it should have been in WA
as they had the model in the game
but nah
they decided to say
"IG gets a new unit in DC!"
bah! with all that time between WA and DC
they should have been able to at least get this unit right

[Wesley84]

Yeah, it's range is totally wasted. Same goes for the Bassie really. It's not like IG excels at theatre awareness. I'd rather have tough short range units or glass cannons with awesome firepower and decent range. Not weak ultra range units that get knocked down by a stiff breeze.

[Angry Rhinp]

I find the 250/50 cost totally unwarrented for a basic hwt. The likelyhood of it actually earning that back isnt very good with the crap hp it has. I also find it extremely annoying that you can mind war and strip soul them. I mean, come on!

[Hiroshi_Tea]

hope is certainly dwindling...:(
i'll take my long range HWT for a BS
even though the BS costs more
it's just more efficient and hardy

[Angry Rhinp]

IMO tbot the entrenching units need something extra. The BS's range is too short ro justify its entrenching time, and the HWT is too weak to justify it scost and buildtime. Thet both look good on paper, but just arent quite there.

[Kyoti]

BS have a range of 40. 2300ish HP, minimum range of 5, a 5.5sec entrenchment time. Very slow movement.
However, building a BS allows you to counter vehicles and infantry, for only 240/120 resource. Cheaper then a LasCannon HWT 300/100 that only counters Vehicles.

[Angry Rhinp]

Movement speed aint to big an issue for me because they are easily transportable. BS still have a lot more utility than HWT for cost. I say make hwt cost like 150/50 drop their buildtime and hardcap em at 3. may reduce pop cap to 1 too

[Inst]

Also, how about increasing their damage against buildings? The rule when dealing with slow and entrenched units is that they have to be a sufficient threat to make them worthwhile. The use for these units would then become to dump them in range of the enemy base. Your opponent then has two options available: either opt to basetrade, which will be unfavorable because of heavy damage of entrenched units, or fight the enemy army.

[Road-kill]

Here's a good ability that should be added into the HWTs: a command that makes them do a 180. Even with godly micro guardsmen still seem to have a fixation with pointing the opposite direction to where you want the gun to point.



BS have a range of 40. 2300ish HP, minimum range of 5, a 5.5sec entrenchment time. Very slow movement.
However, building a BS allows you to counter vehicles and infantry, for only 240/120 resource. Cheaper then a LasCannon HWT 300/100 that only counters Vehicles. and against certain tier 2 vehicles doesn't even counter them especially well.

[Vack]

We all know that not only is the HWT unwieldy, but Guardsmen are a little gimpy too. We could fix both of those.

Make HWT attachable. 200/50/0, 30 second build time, 3 Hardcap, the cover bonus applies to Guardsmen. If possible, a change in the HWT Animation so that they can deploy like SM/CSM HW, but leave entrench as an ability. The HWT could fire after a 2 or 3 second set up time, but would have to use the 5 second entrench ability to get the defensive bonuses.

Before you start screaming about possible Imba, think about how much this would change how IG plays. It would provide viable alternatives to priests for GM squads. You trade the 50% damage bonus on a priested GM squad for the DPS of the HWT. You trade the 100 HP boost and 33% movement speed boost for 50% damage reduction. If the DPS the HWT adds isn't as much as the DPS a Priest adds, maybe let them gain an X% damage boost while entrenched. It actually allows GM to remain viable later on, because they can function without priests, and they get to be a defensive powerhouse unit. It allows HWT to survive long enough to kill their cost in enemies.

This change would add layers upon layers of new depth to IG. You could mix and match your HWT or Priest squads, allowing to mold your force to be better at attacking or at defending. Chimeras become even more awesome.

[wogan121]

Just give them a better health regen. Its anoying when you have a red health HWT and you cant move it as it will die immediatly upon unentrenchmeant.

[Angry Rhinp]

Or make em repairable!

[Hiroshi_Tea]

req health pack was an old idea of mine
clicky the reinforce button for 20 req
and once the bar loads in 5 sec
the HWT gets 50+ health

[Angry Rhinp]

I think the issue is that they dont do enough damage for their durability and they cant inflict enough damage fast enough (because of damage and durability ) to be worth their cost and buildtime. But they're so..... cool....

[fs_xyz]

They can use smaller graphic too when deployed....

[Zany Reaper]

Uh, so any more opinions on this from the last thread?

Autocannons & heavy bolters are useful, but lascannons are debatable. Maybe lascannons should also have a Damage increase?

[Cyberbob]

Lascannons desperately need to deal more damage than Sentinels, at least.

They need something to make up for their lack of mobility.

[Slow_Runner]

If you want to bump a thread, you have to do so with something that hasn't been said in the thread already. "Any more thoughts on this?" doesn't count.


- 3. Keep lascannon in T2 as an upgrade but possibly change their damage/rate of fire to more closely match that of a sentinals.

- lascannon do suck. Buffing damage a little seems reasonable.

- Imo the lass canon need a buff

- A lasgun dmg increase
Next one to add something without reading through the entire thread (yes, all 120 posts of it) to make sure that they're not just repeating points mentioned earlier in the thread will make me one angry moderator and I will set them on fire with my mind.

No, that wasn't funny so please don't post "lol, that was funny" either.

[Ajhayter]

Maybe they could get a suppressive fire ability...

Like you select an area of the map within range, and within a radius (about the radius of the Earthshaker Icon) the HB sprays. Any infantry units in the radius take 50% more ranged damage and suffer 40% normal damage of the HB (since they not aiming, just spraying...)

If you have the LC upgrade you could have an overcharge ability, and make it like troubleshooter suggested for a short time. Long reload, but WTFPWNZOR for everything it hits.

Not sure what the AC ability would be...

[Zany Reaper]

The lascannon overcharge ability sounds fairly feasible (would be a new hurdle for relic though as there aren't any requirements set for specific hardpoint weapons). I imagine it'd be an ability that does 15 times the normal amount of damage the lascannon does from the HWT condensed down into a single shot. However, it'd make the HWT do nothing for 10 seconds & would also have a 60 second reload time.
The idea is that you use it against something that could mean certain doom for a specific entity of yours, such as a commander.

What's interesting however is that the current lascannon upgrade nearly does as much damage to terminator armour equivalent (heavy_high armour) as the autocannon, even though it's supposed to be crap against infantry (it does a lot less damage to the other infantry types though).

[Warp Holder]

A little thing I wanted to ask:
Is the rapid-fire lascannon fluffy?
If not, why not replace it with a missile launcher, like that of SM Tacs or XV-8s, but much more powerful?
If yes, I like those suppressing fire and laser overcharge abilities, but the latter (note: I'm not really convinced about this) may be like the Psykers "Strip Soul" ability: it may backfire, killing the HWT.

[The_Guardman]

NO TO BACKFIRE.
240+ req/ 45 sec. buildtime (+upgrade!) exploding at random? it should be able to one-kill an HQ AND a relic unit in a single blow for me to try it!

Anyway:
- supression fire: nice one, but I will just put extra morale damage to the HB/AC and a slow down effect to the targetted unit (like 10-20%).
- Overcharged shot: nice idea (I see the no-fire after it: lot of smokes... :) ). However, not realy needed and potentially OP.
Just buff that damned HWT damage, speed up production & upgrade time, reduce a bit the cost and limit to 6 or 5.

[RoninOni]

I actually kinda like rocket launcher Idea, if damage, dps and fire rate and range was maintained it would add some nice disruption while not shooting vehicles :P

I like the idea of the passive Morale damage boost to the HB having it break squads would put it on par with HH's as an early T2 AI option.

The AV needs something to make it better, as is I'd rather take a sent any day. I actually do like faster firing lower per hit same DPS however, as it makes it not 100% useless against inf (actually kinda strong vs Heavy High) but it certainly needs something to say the least

The autocannon is a good solid upgrade, though total cost and time its pretty expensive for a unit that can be killed so easily....

I think that weapons should be able to be upgraded on the move
I think a mortar would be a good option to add to the list
I would rather that they were attached to squads with auto-set up and no cover bonus etc... but hey whatever, they won't change it that much now....
I think they could definatly use a build time decrease. as is, you can have sentinals out only 20 seconds later than a lascannon HWT, and the Sent will probably get there before the HWT will anyways. you can have 2 sents out before you can even have a 2nd HB team (this is starting both right away as soon as you hit T2) unless of course you have 2 IC's and the resources to start 2 HWT's right away (um, I doubt it)

The charged up shot idea seems like it could be abused too easily (imagine 3 heavy tanks come in and 3 HWT's kill htem in 3 seconds... i dont think so) relic units being 2 shot by 2 HWT's etc etc. (imagine with pathfinders mark on in a team game *shudder*)

EDIT: as per rocket launcher Idea, it would need a 1.5s -2s fire rate, but keep DPS & range the same. .5 second rockets would be WAY to much disruption :P

[Warp Holder]

Mortars would be a good idea, but there are 2 things already covering that niche: Grenade Launchers and Bassilisks.

[Ajhayter]

Hmm... I see your point with the OP of the mass Overcharge...

Having that would produce a solid vehicle defence, and where IG already have strong AI, having a (very) strong AV could be very overpowerd...

Most relic units are 10000 health ish, so maybe make the overcharge do 1200 damage. That way even with 3 of them, it would do no more than 3600. A siseable chunk, but not overkilling.

One shot would not outright kill a predator or dreadnought either.

So I think it could work that way (but with a 10 second "can't-use-the-gun-right-now-cause-it-will-melt-our-hands" period, and 60 second cooldown on the ability).

[RoninOni]

would they be able to pack up then, i mean if they cant touch the gun......
and mortars would be good cuz then in T2 you could replace GL's with plasma w/out crippling disruption (which IG desperatly needs)

[Slow_Runner]

1200 in a single shot would still be enough to instakill Vypers, Land Speeders, Basilisks, Skyrays, Devilfish and Drone Harbingers. On top of that, it'd guarantee a kill once you brought any vehicle unit down to low enough hp. Plus, even with just two you'd pretty much nullify single vehicles as you could just concentrate fire with the two until the vehicle was down to 2400 and then use the ability from both of them (for example, deal 600 damage to a Killa Kan and then drop it with the abilities). Combine with CotMS and there's little point in making vehicles at all.

[RoninOni]

Yah, overcharge seems too much

HB morale damage seems good though

and I would still like a mortar (w/ morale too maybe? :) :) )

[Zany Reaper]

Combine with CotMS and there's little point in making vehicles at all.So you therefore spam masses of infantry instead against those vulnerable lascannons!

I'm in favour of the overcharge ability, despite its capability of insta-killing T2 tau vehicles & land speeders. Sounds like a very fun ability.
Of course, it should probably have a global recharge timer just to make sure the ability isn't abused. Give it a recharge time of 60 seconds.

[Pellucid]

1200 in a single shot would still be enough to instakill Vypers, Land Speeders, Basilisks, Skyrays, Devilfish and Drone Harbingers. On top of that, it'd guarantee a kill once you brought any vehicle unit down to low enough hp. Plus, even with just two you'd pretty much nullify single vehicles as you could just concentrate fire with the two until the vehicle was down to 2400 and then use the ability from both of them (for example, deal 600 damage to a Killa Kan and then drop it with the abilities). Combine with CotMS and there's little point in making vehicles at all.Yeah, kind of like how if there were some ability that did massive damage to infantry...maybe called something along the lines of "smite," it would make GM pointless.

...oh wait. :p

[mdigibou]

i lol'd

and an "overcharge"... or you could go with something like "target acquired" and make it do ~300? 90sec recharge, affects all unit types =P

[Slow_Runner]

Yes because I'm such an avid fan of the smite and psychic inquisition. I also love the "other races might have some imba so I want some too" logic.

Zany, sure it sounds fun. Especially when the IG player is set up with regular HB HWTs and you decide to counter with vehicles and the IG player ups the HWTs and blows up your vehicle counter. Seriously, it's fine that it can instakill less durable vehicles because it sounds fun after all? Come on.

[fuggles]

Do you a trade - Overcharge does your OMGTWF damage, but the cells explode in doing so, killing the HWT. This will then provide some time/cost damage to go with the instant death of your tank.

I don't get it. HB>light inf auto>heavy inf LC>vehicles...how hard can it be?

[wayfarer]

Wouldn't it be so hard lowerring the fire rate and raising the damage (against vehicles). :rolleyes:

Compared to the Heavybolter, Autocannon the Lasercannon sucks.

[RoninOni]

You could raise the damage across the board actually since slow firing weapons suck vs squads anyways...

I have never busted out the lascannon, though I might if i had an HWT out and i needed more AV right NOW.

I actually do use the HWT's however. early t2 i build 1-2 along with three Sents. The HWT's are actually used to supplement my AI force and since I usually go for 3 sents in t2 (mostly because its great AV and great at LP harrass) it takes a while before Im getting HH's out so HWT's help hold the line vs the upgrading infantry. A morale damage boost to HB would be awesome though ;)

[Zany Reaper]

Seriously, it's fine that it can instakill less durable vehicles because it sounds fun after all?Yeah! I don't see what's wrong with insta-killing a single T2 vehicle with low HP, in one shot. Orks can do it with their Burna bomb for example, & that's accepted (to an extent).

Anyways, I said that this ability should have a global recharge so it isn't abused, therefore only one vehicle is one-shotted.

[RoninOni]

I think that the overcharge ability would be asking for too much, Im not sure how best to fix HWT AV, but I always prefer Sents any ways, and I would much much rather see CotMS restored to become a strong AV option again.

No doubt, HWT needs improvement, I just don't think the charge shot is the way to do it

[Ajhayter]

Ok.. from waht people have said I can see how the charge would be a bad idea in early game when you only have a few vehicles.

However it could happen after "Full Scale War" research. That way it is late-ish game, when the enemy often have many vehicles, which the IG especially find hard to counter. They ofter can't build enough Sentinels, due to bassie/Leman Russ/baneblade building. Although baneblade does provide AV in itself...

I think the suppressive fire could work. Lower the damage of the HB slightly, but incorporate the slowdown of enemy troops of the Shuriken Cannon.

Not sure on the mortar. IG have enough ranged disruption as it is. Grenade launchers, and bassies are still good at that.

EDIT: Plus have the global timer, so it can only be used once every 60 seconds, no matter how many HWT you have.

[Zany Reaper]

The Charged shot would probably serve best as a T3 ability. Get the final add-on for the IG field command & then you can use the Charged shot. It'd make for a really fun & entertaining experience & would furthurmore be perfectly balanced as it'd be set on global timer. Remember that it does infact prevent the HWT that uses it from shooting for about 10 seconds though.

[wayfarer]

In T3 I would still take the Allrounder Autocannon. IG's T3 has enough goodies T1 and T2 lakes a bit punch.

[Angry Rhinp]

I only use lascannon hwts against other guard players, as 1 can actually nullify most of IGs vehicular threats for a long time. Against anyone else though, they're crap. With IG I try to avoid getting AV at all if I can help it.

[RoninOni]

he overcharge would have to do like 10x DPS if your going to have it no fire for 10 seconds, (basically compressing 10 seconds of shooting into 1 shot) in which case it would deal 1200 damage to light and only 600 damage to heavy

I think just a plain Damage buff (with possible RoF reduction, though a larger damage boost if so) is all the Lascannon needs.
I think that Morale damage on the HB would be very nice (an a real AI option compared to HH's)
I think the Autocannon is pretty good well rounded weapon
Mainly I think it needs a build time reduction and slight price reduction. I did the math earlier, you can build a Factory AND 2 sentinals BEFORE you can build 2 HWT's from your EXIStING IC... and the sentinals are far more versatile AV (no AI however) with mobility and good LP harrassing. On top of that, they cost the same total resources (300 req+power).... so.... why am I building HWT's again?

Oh yah, cuz its the only advanced inf until T3 pffft

[Angry Rhinp]

I see the need for a more substantial price reduction to make HWTs actually worth getting. They have low hp and are probably the most unweildly unit in the game and can be one shotted by a lot of things. One idea might be to introduce a stone requirement(I know, but hear me out), and reduce their price and buildtime quite significatly and hardcap em so you can't just spam em to keep infantry focus on guardsmen, with hwts supporting. Perhaps even allow the stone research after tactica to allow for some teir 1 flexibility and to allow you to start em while researching teir 2.

[RoninOni]

Like, instead of on the fly HW upgrade you build a Lascannon team from the IC after researching the HWT LC module?
I could see that... make HB's Avail after Tactica, LC's after T2+tactica, and AC's after T3. hardcapped at 2 each or something? could work... would add firepower to the otherwise desolate T1 as well as lead to probably more tactica builds (GL's and HB HWT's) too much? maybe......

Definite price and time reduction regardless what else