WhiteDeVile
13th Apr 07, 4:16 PM
Its my first (and propably last) balance issue post, so please dont eat me alive, btw I think there's more then 2 solutions for this, so opinions may vary greatly, especially because this issue covers a bit of Eldar gameplay style in T0 and T1. And please forgive me for any grammar mispellz0rs and such, english isnt my native, Im trying to do my best :)
EDIT : One very important thing, THIS IS NOT A 'META' THREAD (even if it would seem so)
Changes that may fix issues stated in this post, WONT ALTER whole race gameplay style. And If it rather fits to the suggestion box (for some unknown to me reason) then Modg0ds please be kind to my little thready and move it safely :salute:
Backround:
Patch 1.2 was supposed to stop turret rush, speed teching, noob strats etc. and make T1 longer, more deciding about what will occur in future Tiers, and it almost did that.
How is this related to Eldar ? I came to this conlusion after playing VDoW, WA, and DC same day.
Eldar Tech Tree seems to be the slowest and the most expensive one of all races (not including Necrons cause of different economy)
The issue :
Balance issue cant be defined straightforward, so its gonna take a long one to clear things up.
First of all lets try to answers some questions, just for ourselfs :
1) Do Eldar tech slower then other races?
2) Do Eldar have economy problems in T0 -> T1 and so fort ?
3) Do other races really need to tech that fast as they currently do ?
4) Do Eldar need to get a simplier and cheaper tech tree, or other races need to have theirs more expensive/slower ?
5) Isnt T1 shorter then it was earlier ? (especialy in WA or DoW)
We've always wanted to emphasis more on T1, and thats currently hard for Eldar.
Now lets get straight to 'why', well its because :
1) Eldar still got their DoW 'leftover', the aspect stones. Two of them equal the cost of an additional listening post, that slows down your economy.
2) Soul Shrine seems a bit too expensive (I'll expand this later in the post, when I'll be comparing costs with other races)
3) Buying Fleet Of Foot is obligatory cause of weak Eldar armor and simply cause their gamestyle, it takes 50 energy, that either slows down :
- Gettin a Farseer
- Building the Soul Shrine
4) Farseer is weaker then others, and needs support of her troops, but how can you manage to get additional support for your FS if you pay 50-100 res more on the aspects ?
5) Both Eldar detector units (GU and harlie) are made at HQ, you have to choose : detection or Mobilize For War, that would make it VERY hard to play against Chaos if ppl used more cloaked CSM xP
6) Eldar are 'paper army' they desperately need armor and optics upgrades to remain a decent threat for their enemys, Shees are in a must to get CoW if they want to stay alive in T2 for more than 4 seconds. Getting some upgrades for FS is also obligatory if you want her to be effective in T2 up to T3.... but Anihilate The Enemy is in there, with all the other upgrades, this slows down no even tech, but whole research, you have to choose :
- upgrades for your units ?
- tech
Which other race has to choose like that ?
7) SM and CSM dont even have to build a gen, starting resources are sufficient for 1st HQ upgrade, while Eldar usually need two gens, one cause of FoF and for Farseer, second gen to get energy for Soul Shrine.
I guess this pretty much covers it up, I'd be very glad If anyone disagrees and posts some decent arguments why, cause this would change my view on Eldar's gameplay and propably give me some hope for my future as Eldar player >__>
The Solution(s):
Well, this would seem easy, but Im having a dilemma on this one. Mainly cause, there are two possible options, which divide into many other.
This could even a be a change so big that no one will ever agree to implement it (especially relic)
Alter almost all other races tech trees (SM and CSM mainly) Yes I am insane :screwy:
j/k, otherwise we could just fasten up Eldar tech tree, but who really wants that ? Other races already tech too fast,
we'd all like to slow down WHOLE DC dont we?
But its seems impossible, dont know why, but Ive got a feeling that this would NEVER happen no matter what we would post here. :spartaaa:
Real Solution:
Change Eldar tech tree with the following :
1) No more aspect stones, except for WS.
2) Move harlies to Aspect Portal, so Eldar can get detector unit while researching Mobilize For War, or take detection from harlies and give it to FS.
3)Move Anihilate The Enemy to Webway Assembly or to Support Portal (it would be very similar to Chaos Energies or HAD <<SM>> upgrades).
Now lets compare the costs up to Tier3 with space marines for example... not to judge anything but to get a clearer look at how things are suited in economical aspect.
Space Marines:
250/100 1st HQ Monastery upgrade
300/300 2nd HQ Fortress Monastery upgrade
Summary: 550/400
Eldar:
Soul Shrine 200/200
Mobilize For War upgrade 300/300
Summary: 500/500
(yes I do took under consiteration that Eldar have cheaper LPs and more expensive Gens)
EDIT : One very important thing, THIS IS NOT A 'META' THREAD (even if it would seem so)
Changes that may fix issues stated in this post, WONT ALTER whole race gameplay style. And If it rather fits to the suggestion box (for some unknown to me reason) then Modg0ds please be kind to my little thready and move it safely :salute:
Backround:
Patch 1.2 was supposed to stop turret rush, speed teching, noob strats etc. and make T1 longer, more deciding about what will occur in future Tiers, and it almost did that.
How is this related to Eldar ? I came to this conlusion after playing VDoW, WA, and DC same day.
Eldar Tech Tree seems to be the slowest and the most expensive one of all races (not including Necrons cause of different economy)
The issue :
Balance issue cant be defined straightforward, so its gonna take a long one to clear things up.
First of all lets try to answers some questions, just for ourselfs :
1) Do Eldar tech slower then other races?
2) Do Eldar have economy problems in T0 -> T1 and so fort ?
3) Do other races really need to tech that fast as they currently do ?
4) Do Eldar need to get a simplier and cheaper tech tree, or other races need to have theirs more expensive/slower ?
5) Isnt T1 shorter then it was earlier ? (especialy in WA or DoW)
We've always wanted to emphasis more on T1, and thats currently hard for Eldar.
Now lets get straight to 'why', well its because :
1) Eldar still got their DoW 'leftover', the aspect stones. Two of them equal the cost of an additional listening post, that slows down your economy.
2) Soul Shrine seems a bit too expensive (I'll expand this later in the post, when I'll be comparing costs with other races)
3) Buying Fleet Of Foot is obligatory cause of weak Eldar armor and simply cause their gamestyle, it takes 50 energy, that either slows down :
- Gettin a Farseer
- Building the Soul Shrine
4) Farseer is weaker then others, and needs support of her troops, but how can you manage to get additional support for your FS if you pay 50-100 res more on the aspects ?
5) Both Eldar detector units (GU and harlie) are made at HQ, you have to choose : detection or Mobilize For War, that would make it VERY hard to play against Chaos if ppl used more cloaked CSM xP
6) Eldar are 'paper army' they desperately need armor and optics upgrades to remain a decent threat for their enemys, Shees are in a must to get CoW if they want to stay alive in T2 for more than 4 seconds. Getting some upgrades for FS is also obligatory if you want her to be effective in T2 up to T3.... but Anihilate The Enemy is in there, with all the other upgrades, this slows down no even tech, but whole research, you have to choose :
- upgrades for your units ?
- tech
Which other race has to choose like that ?
7) SM and CSM dont even have to build a gen, starting resources are sufficient for 1st HQ upgrade, while Eldar usually need two gens, one cause of FoF and for Farseer, second gen to get energy for Soul Shrine.
I guess this pretty much covers it up, I'd be very glad If anyone disagrees and posts some decent arguments why, cause this would change my view on Eldar's gameplay and propably give me some hope for my future as Eldar player >__>
The Solution(s):
Well, this would seem easy, but Im having a dilemma on this one. Mainly cause, there are two possible options, which divide into many other.
This could even a be a change so big that no one will ever agree to implement it (especially relic)
Alter almost all other races tech trees (SM and CSM mainly) Yes I am insane :screwy:
j/k, otherwise we could just fasten up Eldar tech tree, but who really wants that ? Other races already tech too fast,
we'd all like to slow down WHOLE DC dont we?
But its seems impossible, dont know why, but Ive got a feeling that this would NEVER happen no matter what we would post here. :spartaaa:
Real Solution:
Change Eldar tech tree with the following :
1) No more aspect stones, except for WS.
2) Move harlies to Aspect Portal, so Eldar can get detector unit while researching Mobilize For War, or take detection from harlies and give it to FS.
3)Move Anihilate The Enemy to Webway Assembly or to Support Portal (it would be very similar to Chaos Energies or HAD <<SM>> upgrades).
Now lets compare the costs up to Tier3 with space marines for example... not to judge anything but to get a clearer look at how things are suited in economical aspect.
Space Marines:
250/100 1st HQ Monastery upgrade
300/300 2nd HQ Fortress Monastery upgrade
Summary: 550/400
Eldar:
Soul Shrine 200/200
Mobilize For War upgrade 300/300
Summary: 500/500
(yes I do took under consiteration that Eldar have cheaper LPs and more expensive Gens)